http://www.brellrants.net/brell/viewtopic.php?t=7124
They
are on Test server (do an /alt list), therefore its my professional opinion that the NDA doesn't apply to discussing these AA as they appear on Test server.
No, the AA window does not display them, so AA cost is unknown (Except for Pet Affinity, which is confirmed at 20 AA)
QuoteBEAST LORD
Weapon Affinity
Through years of practice, you develop a close bond with your weapons. This affinity allows you to gain enhanced performance from your weapons in the form of an increased rate at which it triggers effects.
Persistent Casting
Through strict concentration, you gain the ability to channel your spells through stuns. Increased levels of this ability increase the chance to cast through a stun.
Bestial Alignment
Transforms beastlords into the likeness of their warders, greatly increasing their destructive power.
Feral Swipe
This ability allows the beastlord to make a vicious kick attack against their foe.
Warder's Fury
This ability imbues your warder with the ability to land critical hits.
Warder's Alacrity
This ability imbues your warder with the ability to flurry attacks.
Pet Affinity
This ability allows your group spells to also affect the pets of group members.
Mastery of the Past
This ability makes it impossible for you to fizzle a spell. The first level affects all spells below level 54. The second level affects all spells below 56. The third level affects all spells below level 58.
Critical Affliction
This ability grants damage-over-time spells the chance to have a critical effect for each tick they are active.
Weapon affinity YESSSSssssssssss!
My ED is going to be evil!
WTB Ethereal Destroyer, PST
They knew why they gave ED a lower proc rate (1.5 / min) than other weps (2.0 / min) from the start, maybe the AA will raise it to a rather normal level.
Seen the best pet focus effect on lucy yet ? Minion of chaos or so with a 40 mod (where SoAS got 25 and Riualthing 30).
Hmmm didn't know that ED has lower proc rate? Even if it does proc only 75% of the normal proc rate, ED+EPW is still more dps than EPW+CoW or EPW+BF or EPW+ED. It would make shinai + EPW better than ED + shinai though... *ponder
/derail off
there are links to SC's of AA cost for each class about 4 replies down on the thread for the AA explanations.
..........
That thread is 100% the exact reason I dont like Beta discussions, people just bitching about how they didnt get what they wanted, how AA's no one has tried(and talked) about the AA's yet the opinion of them is already dooming them...
Feel free to bitch and moan about AA's, I'm not gonna kill links/posts about NDA violations anymore (and the 5th reply is an NDA violation to the extreme, already reported it)
Quote from: DiosT..........
(and the 5th reply is an NDA violation to the extreme, already reported it)
I hate to tell ya bubba, but those screenshots have made the rounds. I saw those several weeks ago. I have no idea who actually took them, or who "leaked" 'em, but once they are in public, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. I got no problem with anyone reporting NDA violations, but neither you, I or SoE has any idea if that person got them themselves, or found them elsewhere & passed them along. The NDA does not apply to the 2nd situation, only the first.
It's up to SoE how to resolve all that and do what they will, but the who's post you are pointing at for NDA may very well not be covered by it.
soooooo...
if someone murders another person, it's legal because the damage has already been done?
It's a breach of a contract anyone who got in Beta had to sign...
Yes I know eventually they get out, and make the rounds, which is why i give up on it eventually..
But sony -does- track down people who post nda violations, -most- admins of major--at least class communities--have been allowed in the recent beta, and are typically happy to help track down the posters by IP address whenever they can
As I said, Feel free to complain how you hate AA's you've never used.. and I know there are many screen shots going around, this is maybe the 5th directory of them i've seen for GoD?
And I trust SoE to investigate, of course they arn't doing straight IP address bans, they look for who's passing it out, and if that person was allowed in beta...
Quote from: GhoatQuote from: DiosT..........
(and the 5th reply is an NDA violation to the extreme, already reported it)
The NDA does not apply to the 2nd situation, only the first.
It's up to SoE how to resolve all that and do what they will, but the who's post you are pointing at for NDA may very well not be covered by it.
Seems to be a pretty common misconception on what constitutes a violation of an NDA. In this case, if *Sony* doesn't post the information to the general public (i.e. it doesn't show up in downloaded files from test or regular servers) if you 'signed' the NDA (hitting the "accept" button is regarded as signing when you went thru the process) you are certainly liable for breaking any of it. You likely can't even talk about the NDA contents. If you are seeing posts with screenshots, people talking about stuff in the beta, that has absolutely no bearing on whether YOU can talk about it or post screenshots. You can't without breaking that NDA and suffering whatever they choose to do to you.
NDAs are hardly a trivial matter, and its really unfortunate that game betas have done just that. If you ever end up dealing with NDAs for the company you work for, hopefully they won't be taken so lightly. You can literally be liable for millions of dollars in damages, and depending on the information there is potential for criminal prosecution.
In GoD's case, there can be game design elements that they dont want competitors to get wind of and possibly improve upon/implement for the few months the beta is going on. Regardless of how you feel about "well they already know" you've likely agreed not to proliferate these 'secrets' in the NDA. And thats also regardless of what YOU feel constitutes a 'secret' - the NDA will probably state that everything you see and hear is for "your eyes and ears only" so you dont have to make that kind of value judgement - their legal and design teams do that for you.
Honestly who cares if the info gets leaked?
The only fear Sony should have is if they made a gimp expansion and they are afraid people won't bother shelling out the $$$$$ to buy it after seeing what they actually will get.
If the information leaked shows the value of the expansion they will probably sell 10-15% more expansions because of it.
So in the end you can view this as any other spoiler really.
If it wasn't for spoilers half of the boards like this one where people can come and see weapons they will never have been exposed to or learn mob tactics wouldn't exist..........there would be no reason.
As far as people breaking the rules to expose the workings of a computer game?...........
Those people should be publicly executed :roll:
Nox
DiosT, are you in the beta?
Quote from: DiosTsoooooo...
if someone murders another person, it's legal because the damage has already been done?
Who else could you murder but another person? And, the only way the damage could already be done, is if they were already dead, and you can't murder a dead person!
And comparing the legality of murder 1 place removed is analagous to 2nd or 3rd hand NDA info passed by someone who might have never been bound by an NDA because of... help me here.
Quote from: DiosT
It's a breach of a contract anyone who got in Beta had to sign...
Agree 100%, my point was/is if this person wasn't even in the beta, it's moot ... but someone clearly broke it.
Yanno, kinda like if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, is the husband still wrong?
The reason companies care whether people violate the NDA's of a Beta is that is ultimately harms the gaming community. Beta's are, by their very nature, in a state of flux. Many things make it in to the final product that have changed drastically from the Beta version. Other things get dropped completely in the final. When people leak things that haven't been finalized some people bitch and whine... this causes unrest in the community. Often the things people are complaining about via the leaks are the same things that get changed because the people in the Beta are providing feedback the proper way.
I used to beta from Microsoft's IE programs. The betas were often better than the final product. Some better features had to be dropped as they never worked as wanted or caused instability. Things often change before they are finalized.
By breaking the NDA's and re-posting the violating materials it will ultimately undermine the whole beta-process! If things like this keep happening SOE will ultimately have to go to a invitation only Beta system, which would be a major step backward in getting a broad consensus of how good the new product will be!
Let the beta-testers do their job... let SOE finalize their product... relax, have a beer and wait and see what goodies are included in the new expansion!
All it takes is for one person in beta to tell one of their friends about everything in an expansion who then leaks it to the message boards. Hell, that other person doesn't even have to play EQ. So his IP gets logged and comes up clean. But the source would remain anonymous. This will continue to happen as long as they request their own playerbase to do their testing for them. I mean, you'd have to be stupid not to do that if you were in beta and you wanted the info to be publicly known.
Which brings me on to the next point. The only way SoE has of keeping everything a secret until release day is to do all of the testing themselves. Really, when you look at each individual enhancement/change, it cannot be that hard to test each of them in a variety of environments to see what happens. AA point enhancements are nothing more than a manipulation of numbers for the most part. It's not exactly groundbreaking. What's that? It takes too long? How about hiring more people to do this stuff exclusively in-house instead of doing it on the cheap by asking players?
NDA violations are the price you pay for not having adequate in-house testing procedures.
Testing any change in a program as large as Everquest can be next to impossible. I'm sure there are several layers of testing that these changes go through, with the some of the phases in house completely. But to go from in house testing straight to production would be rediculous with a product this large. And I'm sure SOE would be blasted if they attempted it.
Personally, I didn't sign any NDA, and there are no laws against me discussing SOE's beta stuff, so I'll do it until I'm blue in the face. However if SONY loses revenue for some reason due to these discussions (e.g. people get fed up and leave the game before actually seeing the changes), and the loss is large enough that they feel it is worthwhile to pursue recouping them via a lawsuit, their lawyers could begin investigating who broke the Agreement. They could subpeona me and ask me where I got my information - of course I would gladly tell them. They would follow the chain until they came to someone who was bound by the NDA and then sue them, winning some nice damages if they could prove that the lost revenues were due to the breaking of the NDA.
Before you think that this sort of thing would be impossible to trace - it's not. The SEC does it all the time for insider trading related prosecution. They just follow the trail of he said/she saids and then prosecute anyone who was knowingly being bad.
Quote from: Noxdowne DraggoutHonestly who cares if the info gets leaked?
Hypothetical. First day of beta a post appears listing all the AAs says they're all broken but 2 and the 2 that aren't broken SUCK and cost 300 aa points each (but we're getting GM buffed in beta so I got them free).
The fear is people will read stuff like that and then simply not buy the product, even though that was the hypothetical first day of beta. Even if they fix all those AA abilities before launch they could have lost customers simply based on that one leak and people losing interest based on it.
If you don't think that happens go read the GoD post at the com board. People where throwing tantrums about those slow spells that are no longer any thing REMOTLY like they where when the crying started. If any of those people gave up on the expansion because of that information then a leak just cost sony a sale ...
QuoteI used to beta from Microsoft's IE programs
I don't think that's something you should
admit to. :)
/further derailing on
This ED stuff made me wonder so...
QuoteThey knew why they gave ED a lower proc rate (1.5 / min) than other weps (2.0 / min) from the start, maybe the AA will raise it to a rather normal level.
Uhm, parsed my last 2-3 weeks or so.
2012 time lapse procs from ED
2159 rujakian venom procs from ED
So, ED has more or less the same proc rate as normal LDoN augment procs, which proc 2/min with 255+ dex. Slightly lower yes, but I assume it is still within statistical variance?
/further derail off
Hey, Argach,
It was my understanding that the proc rate was based on the weapon only, and that augments proc at the rate of the weapon (instead of having a rate of their own.)
Is this wrong? Or does that explain the similarity in procs that you experienced? I noticed that you parsed 2-3 weeks of data. I didn't know if you actually manage to parse out a proc rate from that data, or just counted the number of procs within the total time.
QuoteAs I said, Feel free to complain how you hate AA's you've never used.. and I know there are many screen shots going around, this is maybe the 5th directory of them i've seen for GoD?
More people here have used them than you think.
Grats Mr First Post on making a cryptic statement on a thread you've not yet bothered to contribute to!
The simple fact of the matter is: if you have vaild complaints about ANYTHING in the Beta (provided you are a member of the Beta, and if you aren't, you shouldn't have these issues in the first place) direct them to the GMs via /feedback and /bug. Saying anything about them here just riles up people who for the most part have no clue wtf you are talking about. Not to mention it is a breach of the NDA.
QuoteIt was my understanding that the proc rate was based on the weapon only, and that augments proc at the rate of the weapon (instead of having a rate of their own.)
If that'd be true, clerics could augment Furious Hammer of Zek or Coral-Headed Mace and effectively double their dps (or get a sick amount of healing from a lifetap proc) - also all warrior threads I've read have stated that augments have their own proc rate. Don't have the time to find the parses now but I remember a cleric augmenting his FHoZ and getting 2 procs per min from the augment.
And yes, I just counted the amount of times I saw both procs during that time, otherwise I'd given the fight time too. But I've used numerous different weapon combos during that time so I can't. For me the fact ED's time lapse and rujarkian venom procs are roughly the same frequency is proof enough that ED doesn't have a "nerfed" proc rate. Also found a thread on warrior boards that states that every weapon has the same proc rate barring a few special cases and since they parse a lot of stuff I tend to believe their stuff. If somebody shows a long parse of ED procing significantly worse than 2/min with 255 dex I might believe it - as it is, all the proof seems to point towards ED having the normal proc rate.
All weapons have a proc rate assigned to them individually--there might be a default value during item creation, but it's trivial for them to change it. Augs have their own proc rate assigned that's separate from the weapon you put it on.
And finally, ED procs a lot even before WA. Certainly not merely 75% as much as other weapons. Having said that, I will not be at all surprised if they nerf it shortly after GoD is released due to this AA (unless the AA itself is lame in release).
(As for the NDA, I didn't sign it since I'm not in the beta, so I don't have any qualms about repeating what I hear elsewhere)
We go thru this each Beta. The admins try to keep the NDA, people leak stuff and just reading the threads is frustrating. Yet Sony keeps doing them so they must figure the advantages outweigh the dissadvantages.
I'm not in the Beta as the web site would never load - I was in beta 3 back when EQ was new and they had leaks even back then. It seems like the whole beta/NDA process alienates the most devoted customers - the ones who use this and other boards.
If you didnt get in you feel left out...
If you got in you can't discuss your thoughts with the community...
Some boards get chastised by Sony for breaking the NDA...
People fight and argue over what is a violation...
Some things do change for the better and some stay the same regardless of community/tester outcry...
and worst of all... each expansion is usually more of a timesink than the last regardless of what gets feedbacked, making the game less fun and more tedious.
That said... my concerns are:
300 AAs is alot of time for 5ish skills
20 AAs is alot for group pet buffs
and a 30sec? warderform is a dissapointment since it may have shrink issues and isnt longterm.
And yes, im "bitching" about AAs I dont have and have never used. But I do hope they get changed and it will make me much more likely to spend the HUGE time investment needed if they are changed. So why not let Sony know in the only way a non-beta tester can - here.
Some general observations:
1. Get used to the high aa costs. AA's are much faster to get nowadays (in the right places) and they don't want people to have every GoD aa 2 weeks into the expansion. It's just the reality of it, no matter how much we complain.
2. There was a choice between long term illusion (which means everyone runs around as animals all the time) or a short term one. There are people in both camps and pros and cons of each. I personally think it's dumb for everyone to run around as a tiger or bear or gator or scaled wolf all the time but I fully realize there are people who love the idea. Either way, whichever one gets picked is going to make some people unhappy or disappointed.
And no, you can't just do both. Part of the objection for people like me is that it just looks stupid to have people running round as bears or whatever all the time. If they had a long term illusion in addition to a short term one, that ends up being a "victory" for the people who want a long-term illusion, since there's still the option to always run around like that. So you either have to have a long term one OR a short term one.
Bengali my problem is that the illusion is either the main thing or an annoyance. If you had an AA that was like mage elemental form you'd have people buy it for the illusion, use it, get a minor boost and be very happy. If you put it on a short term thing like frenzy of spirits you have people that won't buy it for illusion and now you have people that buy the AA for the stats and are annoyed with the buff wrecking their shrink. Seriously this either needs to be 1) illusion buff or 2) burst AA.
I have never really cared either way. An illusion would be cool and a *LOT* want, but in it's current form with big refresh and messing things up I'd rather not have the illusion on the current BA because it just interfers and the AA would be better overall for me if it wasn't there at all. Given a choice I'd opt for a long duration illusion with proc/mana regen/veng/whatever. *shrugs*
Divine avatar atm has built in 70% shrink I believe, but an illusion when it fades messes up shrink/grow. I don't see anything wrong with bst running around as bears verse mages being fire elementals or bards being werewolves, rangers being wolves, etc. It's part of the game and a natural progression really. Not to mention it's simply fun for a lot of people.
Quote from: GrymlokGrats Mr First Post on making a cryptic statement on a thread you've not yet bothered to contribute to!
The simple fact of the matter is: if you have vaild complaints about ANYTHING in the Beta (provided you are a member of the Beta, and if you aren't, you shouldn't have these issues in the first place) direct them to the GMs via /feedback and /bug. Saying anything about them here just riles up people who for the most part have no clue wtf you are talking about. Not to mention it is a breach of the NDA.
I've been following the Bst community since the inception of the old board. I'll stick my feet in and where I feel like, and not be belittled by people who think thier post count actually means something. There is nothing cryptic about my statement. I've talked to several other beastlords while in beta and quite a few belong to this forum. How is that cryptic? There are more Bsts in beta that belong to these boards than DiosT thinks. By his original statement that people are whining about aa's they've never used, he is wrong. It was a blanket statement though...i know.
I agree with your second statement though.
Quote from: TastianBengali my problem is that the illusion is either the main thing or an annoyance. If you had an AA that was like mage elemental form you'd have people buy it for the illusion, use it, get a minor boost and be very happy. If you put it on a short term thing like frenzy of spirits you have people that won't buy it for illusion and now you have people that buy the AA for the stats and are annoyed with the buff wrecking their shrink. Seriously this either needs to be 1) illusion buff or 2) burst AA.
Since everyone complains about illusions and shrink, it seems the more palatable thing to do is make it so illusions don't wreck shrink rather than avoid putting illusions on things.
Don't get me wrong, I hate illusions, especially non-player illusions because my perspective gets all jerky and messed up when I attack (god I hated grouping with druids who would spam that stupid wolf form spell). So I would rather it was a straight burst AA also. But there are still people out there who think it's cool to turn into a tiger or gator or bear and do a bunch of damage short term, and who won't really care about having to re-shrink every hour or whatever the reuse ends up being. Especially since we can shrink ourselves very easily.
The damage more than makes up for the inconvenience of reshrinking, imo.
A long term illusion buff with any meaningful stats (AC, veng, FT, anything) would create incentives for people to be in that form as much as possible. That's fine if you think illusions are fun and like spazzing out when you attack mobs. If you don't like them, then you're basically stuck with having inferior stats to the illusion junkies.
[quote="Bengali]it seems the more palatable thing to do is make it so illusions don't wreck shrink.[/quote]
Good suggestion. I guess devs just have to store "shrink level" and apply it whenever an illusion starts/stops. Ihis would make Ndt more useful, and prevent the "short illusion spell" size issue.
I know for a fact that when raiding, if the illusion "dispells" shrink when it goes off, I'd very rarely use it...
Quote from: Bengalimake it so illusions don't wreck shrink
Careful what you wish for. They'll probably make that an AA ability :roll:
id rather get rid of the illusion.... recasting fire elemental is a pain in the ass :\
QuoteThere are more Bsts in beta that belong to these boards than DiosT thinks. By his original statement that people are whining about aa's they've never used, he is wrong
Actually..
If anyone here is complaining about an AA they DO have, then they are in violation of the NDA agreement..
Thus any comments here should be assumed to be by members who are NOT in beta, unless lots of people like risking their accounts... You must understand that SOE is a business first, and a 'game-loving group of friends' second... They do NOT like people voicing how things stink before the game is on the market, it gives them no chance to change the abilities before they go live, and thus costs them money...
I understand a lot of people on this board are in beta, but thankfully a lot of the people I recognize as being in the beta are either, 1) Posting in ways that uses public data(and I'm talking public data excluding NDA violations that are 'publicly accessable'), not personal thoughts/experience, 2) Not posting about GoD, or 3) Not posting at all.
Understand that I like to give community members here the benefit of the doubt when I see an opinionated statement of an AA from GoD, and assume it's an opinion on what the expect based on public data... If people posted their personal opinions from Beta directly and openly, well it would cause a fuss that thankfully I havn't yet needed to deal with..
Again understand, I have a very good feel as to how many people/beastlords are in beta, but due to NDA restraints..
1-I am very broad/open-ended/unspecific when I talk about it
and
2-I Hope that the people posting opinions of AA's are in fact complaining about AA's they've never used--which is why I said what i did.... If they are in beta and complaining about AA's they've used, they have broken the NDA (with some exceptions), and I try to look away at minor comments because I know they slip out.
Quote from: cougerofeqWe go thru this each Beta. The admins try to keep the NDA, people leak stuff and just reading the threads is frustrating. Yet Sony keeps doing them so they must figure the advantages outweigh the dissadvantages.
They do it for a few reasons...
1-It's an industry standard pritty much--with good reasons for it to be so
2-It gives them grounds, if needed, to persue legal damages from leaks
3-It keeps MOST people from speaking publicly about the beta
QuotePeople fight and argue over what is a violation...
The NDA is fairly common-sense and explains what is a violation... you can 'get around' it by quoting public data (excluding NDA-violations made public), and still be safe.
QuoteAnd yes, im "bitching" about AAs I dont have and have never used. But I do hope they get changed and it will make me much more likely to spend the HUGE time investment needed if they are changed. So why not let Sony know in the only way a non-beta tester can - here.
Please dont get me wrong, I -love- to see comments here, I'm sure other beta members/lurkers do as well, it lets people see other angles and possibilities of the expansion... but as the beta goes on, people start going to more 'my opinion of skill xxxxxxxx' is 'this' and less 'according to lucy...'...
if you notice, a week ago we were always talking about lucy data, now we are slowly moving to normaltive(personal experience/opinion) like statements about things--which is 'better' obviously, than just raw data, but is still covered by a legal contract that I at least, had to print, sign, and fax to them, binding me to the contract. See my previous post about why i 'assume' these normative statements are not personal opinions of beta members.
I simply don't want NDA violations/borderline comments to be commonplace here, because SOE's Legal group IS
very likely looking into almost all major violations--what company wouldn't?
I'd rather have them feel this board is 'safe' then have them comb through looking for violations
Diost, you must be kidding if you think that Sony would be upset that people would post info about AA's which are being beta tested.
1. Sony doesn't need our help in testing small features like AA's. They could of easily left them out until right before GoD goes live. They added them JUST so that people would evaluate them and post on boards to get the general masses thoughts on them. Sending NDA violations to Sony probably hits the Circular File faster then whines about Kill Stealing.
2. Sony wants all the buzz they can get right about now. WoW is breathing hard down there necks and I would bet alot this is the first time Sony is nervous about losing there dominance of the MMORG market.
Piece of advice DiosT you need to put Everquest in perspective and relax a little. :shock:
Regards,
Drazgul
Quote1. Sony doesn't need our help in testing small features like AA's. They could of easily left them out until right before GoD goes live. They added them JUST so that people would evaluate them and post on boards to get the general masses thoughts on them. Sending NDA violations to Sony probably hits the Circular File faster then whines about Kill Stealing.
You might want to think a little bit more, if the whole purpose of the Beta was for people to post about the abilities on message boards, then why an NDA at all, why didnt they just come out and post exactly what their thoughts on the abilities are on a board somewhere and ask for feedback? Plus if they kept them out until right before Live then they wouldnt have enough time to tweak with them to get them right.
Purpose of the beta is to hopefully have enough of each class in to get an all around consensus on the overall thoughts of the ability. The last thing they want is all the bitching and whining being caused by things getting posted on message boards while still in development, all that leads to is an increase in their email im sure. Which is all futile considering that most beastlords in the Beta will be /feedbacking the exact same concerns that most have but without all the drama and whining occuring on this and many other message boards.
Plus NDA's are a contractual obligation and can be acted upon by the company if they so see fit, so the fact that DiosT takes the NDA seriously shows that he does have things in perspective.
Well, I think alot of you people are missing the purpose for the beta. I agree that for the most part (not saying entirely) that SOE doesn't actually need us to "test" the new AA skills and spells. Anybody care to notice the bit about moving EQ to being based on DX 9? What about the patch message advising everybody to make sure their video drivers are up-to-date? The biggest reason for a beta, is to have a large player base to test your code. They want to get as many varying computer setups on which to test their new code, something they can't exactly do with in-house testing. They want to know if the new code will cause problems with Nvidia based cards, or ATI based cards, or is using an AMD CPU with an ATI card, on a Nvidia based motherboard (ok, I'm just putting it all together, hehe) will cause you to CTD when you zone into West Freeport after you've been playing for 35 minutes, and have shrunk yourself 5 times, and then then cast Inner Flame on yourself, and run around in a circle singing Mary Had a Little Lamb. The purpose of the beta IS NOT to give people a chance to whine and bitch about things they have no idea about and only see a slim snapshot that some Joe Blow happened to post on some message board, probably Anon.
There was something else I was about to say, but I lost it. Anyway, I think I've covered most of my points. Clear as mud everybody?
We have mgb so we're entitled to lower recast aa's. imho
QuoteI agree that for the most part (not saying entirely) that SOE doesn't actually need us to "test" the new AA skills and spells.
Alot of the AA's from various classes needed testing...badly. Some were ok from the start..but alot weren't. Beta encompasses everything that goes into a new expansion as well as how it affects the world that exists already from integration...from quests to zones properly working. Take for instance raid enounters....they are never setup at the beginning of beta the same as when they go live. Even after they go live they sometimes need testing and more improvements. Beta is a very crucial element to new expansions I believe. While an open beta can be a double edged sword for Sony, it also is extremly valuable. You have a larger number of people going over things that don't work from within the company. This can lead to players who think outside of the box to come up with stuff that helps tune or fix some things that need to be. There are a few high end guilds who are almost always in beta helping test new features in raids...another reason they also advance so quickly since they already know where to go, what to do, and what to expect. Those same players for the most part are talented palyers to begin with (not always though) and really give the devs insights on encounters, etc., that might not normally be thought of.
Just my take from someone whos done beta and been around since the beginning of EQ.
Quote from: DrazgulDiost, you must be kidding if you think that Sony would be upset that people would post info about AA's which are being beta tested.
I posted above, in another reply, exactly why they dont like talk about AA's...
2 weeks ago AA's were 'unfinished' according to lucy, example being that Bestial Alignment I-III were all ferocity clones... Do they WANT people to be talking about these broken AA's? Heck no!
Do they WANT people talking about Bugs, glitches, unfinished work/spells/aa, uncoded/untested zones, BEFORE the product is finished? No..
I treat EQ as SoE does, as a 'product' of a 'business'... As i said previously, The development team are EMPLOYEES first and formost, and 'gamers' second.
Quote1. Sony doesn't need our help in testing small features like AA's. They could of easily left them out until right before GoD goes live. They added them JUST so that people would evaluate them and post on boards to get the general masses thoughts on them. Sending NDA violations to Sony probably hits the Circular File faster then whines about Kill Stealing.
There are too many AA's for 1-3 people to 'quickly' test & balance in most all situations.. we should know by now they dont look much at the 'code' to determine if an AA is balanced, but actually the raw parses people pull out to show if things work or not...
Quote2. Sony wants all the buzz they can get right about now. WoW is breathing hard down there necks and I would bet alot this is the first time Sony is nervous about losing there dominance of the MMORG market.
They want buzz, but not bad publicity... Posting AA's generates typically bad publicity as MORE people are like "Great, ANOTHER useless AA" (In their opinion as a _____(Insert play style here)_____).. more then "Wow, that'll be a fun aa!" because people enjoy to complain and hope it gets changed their way, rather then support something they like as is (unless its to stop a 'change' others want)
QuotePiece of advice DiosT you need to put Everquest in perspective and relax a little. :shock:
I love EverQuest, and want the best for it eventhough I rarely play now... I've worked with the team long enough to feel I owe them thanks... and I know they do -not- like NDA violations, almost all of them are violations in hopes of getting a change for something in beta, because people THINK that /bugs and /reports are completely unread... especially on the beta server.. for some reason...
The developers prefer bugs, reports, hell even /tells over people violating the NDA and putting unfinished work on the market as if it's SUPPOSED to be a release-quality game...
Seems most people can't understand what a 'beta test' is (no offense to anyone in particular here)... in past beta tests it was funny to see people getting 'free' or 'better' gear that is avalible on live servers(NToV, VT, Time)... then going to -old- content to see how fun EQ is with a 'top-end' character as it would be on 'live' at the time.. or ask why new AA's arn't working the first day of beta... They don't understand why something isnt working, and instead of doing bug reports, feedback, e-mail, tells to Developers, or petitioning, they feel they MUST post one-sided satire in search of public support by people who are not testers (and if they are, should Not be posting personal opinions about it under the NDA) in hopes of changes...
Sony provides -many- chances for the testers to provide developers feedback directly in-game, or by in-game means... The developers also freely hand out their e-mail addresses when something needs lots of detail to explain, or cant be handled at the moment...
Beta's are ALWAYS horrendous to look at if you are expecting a fully-functional production-quality game, yet that is what people EXPECT the second they are in the game.....
QuotePlus NDA's are a contractual obligation and can be acted upon by the company if they so see fit, so the fact that DiosT takes the NDA seriously shows that he does have things in perspective.
Thanks Urim...
And yes, I take legal contracts seriously, I probably have a different perspective on the contract since I sometimes hear about people who were suspended/banned from EQ over it.. and I KNOW they actively seek out to catch many of the serious violations (including direct quotes from developers, screen shots, etc.) in attempts to find the source and 'terminate' it...
EverQuest is not a game to SOE, it's a product... Most testers are -not- reporters, and post their opinions/conclusions of the product -without- the full amount of information they could get... testers almost NEVER inquire about the Developers plans of a problem before they go public with it... while many reporters would (or would otherwise be briefed about key points/flaws of the beta product that are to be fixed before release)...
Look at Tom's hardware guide, or Tech TV, or other places that cover latest & greatest products.. IF they mention a flaw in something that they tested 'before the actual release' they make follow-up statements with the companies reply to it..
such as (similar to something I read once) "The box didn't come with the cables included, but the company says the shelved boxes will all come with all them included"
I don't see people saying:
"_____________ currently doesnt work, but developers are going to look at it latter, and will have a decent solution for it before it's released if at all possible, or shortly afterwards"
it's more like:
"___________ doesnt work, it will stay like this
(Note this is a personal opinion stated factually without ever asking developers) and we need to petition for changes now! They should make it a ________-like spell/ability/disc/etc. instead, in it's current form it is useless/pointless"
That's exactly why sony does NOT want NDA violations... and why Sony asks if people host fansites, or are members of the media, at the time of signing up--So SOE can 'discuss' known problems before the final report on the product is published
Quote from: DiosTThey want buzz, but not bad publicity... Posting AA's generates typically bad publicity as MORE people are like "Great, ANOTHER useless AA" (In their opinion as a _____(Insert play style here)_____).. more then "Wow, that'll be a fun aa!" because people enjoy to complain and hope it gets changed their way, rather then support something they like as is (unless its to stop a 'change' others want)
You think that's gonna change whether people bitch now or bitch after the AA goes live? I.e. Bestial Alignment is useless now, and it's going to be useless on 2/10 whether or not we talk about it. As I recall people said similar things about Hobble in the PoP beta ("Don't worry, they'll fix it!"), and hey look at that... it still is just about useless today!
QuoteI don't see people saying:
"_____________ currently doesnt work, but developers are going to look at it latter, and will have a decent solution for it before it's released if at all possible, or shortly afterwards"
it's more like:
"___________ doesnt work, it will stay like this (Note this is a personal opinion stated factually without ever asking developers) and we need to petition for changes now! They should make it a ________-like spell/ability/disc/etc. instead, in it's current form it is useless/pointless"
Well, I've been playing EQ since day 1 of release, and basically since Luclin (and the Sigil mass-exodus) I personally don't think SOE devs deserve a whole lot of faith from their customers. They lost the benefit of the doubt long ago, and when I see something that sucks being lined up in beta, past experience tells me it will probably go live sucking just as much.
It's SOE's own fault people are so cynical about their new expansions.
Well Vorph, what you are saying is exactly the reason SOE requires you sign an NDA, and just enforces DiosT's point.
They don't want people like you shouting to the world that their expansion sucks before it's even been released, as that would cut down on sales. So they make you sign an NDA which prohibits you from talking about what you've learned in beta. Why you would be willing to break that contract and leave yourself open to a lawuit, however slim the chance, in order to tell a bunch of strangers about something that they will see shortly anyway is beyond me, but thanks for the info! ;)
Oh, I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression about me - I think EQ is one of the best games ever. I've never played any other video game as much or for as long. So, while there are mistakes from time to time and stupid decisions even, overall some people are doing something right over there at SOE.
I've made it clear that I'm not in the beta every time I've posted something potentially NDA-breaking.
I didn't feel the beta was a good use of my time, as I don't believe that SOE takes player feedback at all seriously. They just want stress testers, not people to give actual feedback on the design.
Quote from: VorphI didn't feel the beta was a good use of my time, as I don't believe that SOE takes player feedback at all seriously. They just want stress testers, not people to give actual feedback on the design.
That's not accurate. Many of the changes that have occured in past betas (and this one as well) are the direct result of tester feedback.
Unfortunately the NDA prevents people from being able to give specifics on what has changed, and when/how it changed (even after beta's over, you're not supposed to to reveal the inner workings of it) and it's also possible for something to change based on your feedback and you don't directly know about it. So it's difficult to disprove statements like this one.
"The inner workings of Beta shall be more secret than the location of the Holy Grail and Noah's Ark"
That is what my NDA said... :P
Quote from: BengaliThat's not accurate. Many of the changes that have occured in past betas (and this one as well) are the direct result of tester feedback.
It's accurate enough. I need only point at LDoN Time-level raids and rest my case.
Quote from: VorphQuote from: BengaliThat's not accurate. Many of the changes that have occured in past betas (and this one as well) are the direct result of tester feedback.
It's accurate enough. I need only point at LDoN Time-level raids and rest my case.
That doesn't remotely prove that SOE didn't want or receive feedback on those. It just proves you don't like the way they turned out.
And if they received and implemented feedback on every other aspect of LDoN from testers, then your statement isn't "accurate enough" either.
Look, it's absolutely clear that every single comment of piece of feedback isn't implemented. Heck, sometimes people give feedback wanting the exact opposite thing so it's not even possible. But you concluded that SoE only wants stress testers for this beta, and has zero interest in design feedback. And your conclusion is based entirely on your admitted non-participation in the process.
That's pretty thin ice to rest your case on, but who knows.
QuoteIt's accurate enough. I need only point at LDoN Time-level raids and rest my case.
Actually if i remember correctly, at the beginning there were no plans for raids in the LDoN expansion. It wasn't until much bitching and moaning on message boards after the NDA breakers let the word slip that there was no raids that the raids got put in, so please point the blame right back at the NDA breakers.
Why not instead of whining about the process you become involved in it, oh but then you would have more things to whine about because YOUR ideas weren't implemented they way YOU wanted them.
I myself find the LDoN Time raids to be a challenge, true some things could be changed for hte better but that doesn't mean that feedback wasn't listened to ... unless you somehow have inside information on the ldon beta that would suggest that the devs just laughed at the feedback and did their own thing?
QuoteI didn't feel the beta was a good use of my time, as I don't believe that SOE takes player feedback at all seriously.
Your beliefs are unfounded and entirely without merit, as this is a factual/non-factual statement. Unless you are actually taking part in the process, anything you theorize is fluff. If you participate in a beta and see for yourself that your feedback is not taken seriously, maybe then you'll have a legitimate bitch.
I have been involved in both the LDON and the GoD beta, and I can state that feedback I have submitted has been implimented and I have even recieved tells directly from devs when logged in asking me to clarify feedback I submitted. More recently with the GoD beta, devs are quite commonly on and spend alot of time talking with the players and gathering data and taking suggestions.
In the GoD beta, I have seen several of my feedbacks go live soon after sending them in, one within hours - granted I can't necessarily claim they were directly responding to my feedback specifically.
Vorph...your thoughts on beta are way off base. If you've ever done beta you'd know. The devs are so hands on with this beta it isn't even remotly funny. I'm speaking from first hand experience. Stress tests are just about the last thing going on in beta.
Eh, I hope you're right. I've pre-ordered GoD and so I hope that it doesn't turn out to be a waste of money like LDoN is (from a raid standpoint, which is the only reason I play EQ)
My cynical opinion of SOE (not Verant) betas prior to this one stands, however, no matter how good or bad GoD turns out.
Quote from: VorphEh, I hope you're right. I've pre-ordered GoD and so I hope that it doesn't turn out to be a waste of money like LDoN is (from a raid standpoint, which is the only reason I play EQ)
My cynical opinion of SOE (not Verant) betas prior to this one stands, however, no matter how good or bad GoD turns out.
You have no +HP, Vengence, or Flowing Thought augments yet I take it?
protection of calliav and 400+ hp, plus your pick of any other useful effects such as FT, Vengeance or maybe a DoT focus. All of which stacks on top of your current armor.
LDoN was great for raiders, plus it's better than killing endless trash mobs in PoE for xp.
Quote from: Murkk Dakruul
LDoN was great for raiders, plus it's better than killing endless trash mobs in PoE for xp.
with 300 more AAs to earn wont the that be back?
Just do hard missions. Almost the same xp and much more entertaining/profitable.
Quote from: cougerofeqQuote from: Murkk Dakruul
LDoN was great for raiders, plus it's better than killing endless trash mobs in PoE for xp.
with 300 more AAs to earn wont the that be back?
Well, if you believe some of the posts about them, there aren't any aa worth getting ;) ;) ;)
Quote from: RhaynneQuoteI didn't feel the beta was a good use of my time, as I don't believe that SOE takes player feedback at all seriously.
Your beliefs are unfounded and entirely without merit, as this is a factual/non-factual statement. Unless you are actually taking part in the process, anything you theorize is fluff. If you participate in a beta and see for yourself that your feedback is not taken seriously, maybe then you'll have a legitimate bitch.
I can. And I call BS. They didn't listen to player feedback on these aas because I logged in every other day and did feedback and the only changes made were not even close to my feedback, or anyones that I talked to in beta about them. Also, based on the email I got from the dev in charge of AAs the changes that were made were already planned so you can see that no... They didn't listen to player feedback.
to further derail:
LDoN sucked for raiding people because the raid content was for 36 (with aweful reward, deathcounts, time limits) while the guilds that could beat those had much bigger numbers due to PoTime requirements.
I rather stop raiding than breaking the guild in pieces over some LDoN stuff.
Why grind augments for amor that will be replaced in GoD, or you save up all LDoN points to buy augments for GoD stuff assuming it will be augmentable ?
QuoteI can. And I call BS.
Yes, because I have so much motivation to lie about this!
/boggle
Some of you people are rediculous.
Quote from: RhaynneQuoteI can. And I call BS.
Yes, because I have so much motivation to lie about this!
/boggle
Some of you people are rediculous.
My point is that my beliefs aren't unfounded because I am in beta and I did feedback and they didn't listen. They didn't listen to any of the other beta beasts I talked to either.
It's one thing to say that your feedback wasn't implemented.
It's a totally different thing to say that they didn't listen to it, or that it was ignored entirely or that the devs were never interested in hearing it in the first place.
This part of the thread started because of that claim -- the one that beta is a complete waste of time because the devs only want to run stress tests, and have zero interest in feedback from testers as to design. This is the claim that some people are arguing is off-base (with good reason). I don't think anyone is remotely trying to suggest that the devs will always follow people's suggestions.
The devs are interested in what people think with respect to design issues. You don't even need to be in beta to know that -- I'm sure you can find posts on various message boards where they ask what people think, and even the fact that they ever post there at all is evidence they are reading people's feedback.
Sometimes they agree with feedback, other times they don't. Sometimes they even want to implement ideas people come up with but can't because of technical or balance reasons. Some ideas get shelved for later expansions because the time isn't right. And some ideas just aren't good.
None of that is intended to suggest that your feeback wasn't good or that it wasn't implemented for any of the above reasons. But I find it odd that people are willing to use some examples of unimplemented feedback as evidence that everyone is being ignored. It's just a logical fallacy.
Total and senseless /derail on
You love that word so much and use it in every other post... and it's killing me.. it's spelled RIDICULOUS!
I'll use it in a sentence for you.. You look ridiculous spelling it this way, rediculous.
/derail off
continue debating the devs intentions
Maybe it should be RIDICULOUS the first time and REDICULOUS the second time - ill feedback that to the scholars and see what they think. Heaven knows what is correct grammar is subject to change based on popular use.
Personally I could care less how you spell it as long as I know what you mean.
I sure hope we get some good feedback on release day as to what seems to be the best way to spend our 30 saved AAs for best results.
Huh, and here all along I thought it was spelled RICOCKULOUS.
Oh darn. You got me on one of several words I consistently spell wrong (along with receive and amount, btw). Note my deep and abiding concern on how it actually affects my argument.