SCF? please

katahn · March 10, 2004, 06:23:21 PM

Nope, I meant SCF before BF, and I doubt I'll waste the points on CF for a while since the actual boost in DPS is anemic. As for getting SCF before BF, I am also not racing to 65 this time, but am going to be stopping to get what I feel are important AAs taken care of in my low-50s when I can grind through certain zones/mobs insanely fast (moreso if I had KEI and pet toys, I didn't before and it was fast then), and so I am durable enough and contribute enough DPS in my late 50s and prior to getting to 62 to get Arag, to not be a weak link in a group.

Mahes · March 10, 2004, 06:36:37 PM

Uhmmm...

Hmmm....how to put this....

BF is such a given for our class that you should be required to spend your first AAs in it. To get >any< AA over BF is not-wise.

TerjynPovar · March 10, 2004, 07:01:05 PM

Except perhaps Paragon of Spirit...I stopped at 60 to get Paragon before I even could get BF.

Mahes · March 10, 2004, 07:41:01 PM

Yes, sorry, I should have mentioned that this is assuming you're the required levels. People take time off from leveling to AA or let other friends catch up.

I have to say though, given today's state of the game, that holding off leveling for AAs is only detrimental barring the casual-play with friends thing.

katahn · March 11, 2004, 03:11:16 PM

Respectfully I disagree that doing AAs before 65 is in any way unvirsally detrimental. Since when is EQ a race to 65? Especially for a class that can, if it wanted, solo the entire way there? Bear in mind that BF is a PoP AA you can't get till 61, and isn't a significant boost in number of attacks until you have it at level 4 or 5, meaning level 64/65.

I fully acknowledge that getting AAs *can* take longer in the lower levels, I don't care. BUT it doesn't actually *always* hold true that it takes longer. It all depends on where you're hunting, and how fast you can chew through said content, and the relationship of those to the xp-value on the mobs. In a pet-kiting group in my 50s, I can make AA faster than I could at 65 in BoT/HoH for instance for a variety of reasons: speed of kills, close-to-level bonus, almost no downtime, etc.

Furthermore, a number of times I see people argue any one or more of the following:

* You won't get groups in BoT/HoH before you're 65. This, of course, assumes you want those groups, or that grouping with folks your own level in differant zons is a horrible tragedy.

* XP in the elemental planes is awesome, you'll never make AA faster than you will there. This, of course, assumes you are a raider, and if a raider in a guild flagged for the elemental planes and you personally are flagged for the elemental planes. If this is not the case, this argument is moot.

* You won't get into a level 65 LDoN group unless you're 65! So? I can get into lower level LDoN groups and with the power and abilities afforded by AAs, help my groups go through them faster. Instead of taking a hour to get 51 points, I can take 30 minutes to get 34-36 or so, and in the same amount of in-dungeon time, get twice the points, twice the chance for drops, and twice the loot.

There is only one reason that doing AA before 65 is "Stupid" and that is if you are catching up to friends, or are in some kind of mental race to be level 65. I have levelled two characters to 65 so far, a cleric on Saryrn and a beastlord on Stromm, and I just don't feel the burning urge to hurry up and be 65 again as fast as possible. So, for me, SCF is a much better AA than BF, it will be useful to me sooner, it will improve my DPS sooner based on proccing weapons, and with lifetap augs will actually improve my soloing when I don't feel like grouping. Ditto for Combat Agility, Combat Stability, Natural Durability, Mental Clarity, Spell Casting Reinforcement, etc.

In the end, AAs are a personal decision, with a lot of variables as to which ones you get, when you get them, and so on. There is no one-size-fits-all.

Tastian · March 11, 2004, 04:33:54 PM

Well I agree with a lot of what you say kat there are a couple things I don't think you mention. Like that well AA grinding you aren't leveling. For instance to get SCF3 you need 12AAs + 6 in general and have to be 55. For the exp spent on 18 AA's at 55 you could have been ~58(ish) in level. That's a damage mod to weapon, two new pets, Greater healing verse healing and various other things. If you are close to 60 then there is basically no amount of AA that will make up for 40% haste and 50% slow + savagery.

I agree that some people should stay and AA if they want and I think a few people "rush" to 65 that probably shouldn't. However, for some people the push to 65 is the right move. Although these days you see far too many "newbie" 65's imo that have no gear/aa/skill with their class. Perhaps 10 or 40 AA's in the 60 range would have helped them get a clue, but *shrugs*.

TerjynPovar · March 11, 2004, 05:27:15 PM

The only thing I'll comment on is you are mistaken if you think you are completing LDoNs twice as fast by doing lower level ones. Plus the loot you do get is worth less.

Tastian · March 11, 2004, 05:39:22 PM

The loot you get actually depends. There are a LOT of people doing 65 ldons and although some items like delightful orb and witness staff still fetch multiple k there are lots of more common named drops that are tribute fodder these days. However, some of the mid-50's drops are so rare and decent that they fetch a pretty nice price. Ruj knuckles were 30k or so last I checked, you'll never get that for a crinose cape or rusting shield or even a face mask of frozen mana on this server. *shrugs* It might not pay off big time, but there are a few "nice" items in the 50-60 LDoN normals that are quite rare because very few stay those levels and get the drops. Meanwhile glacierbone hammers flood the market hehe.

TerjynPovar · March 11, 2004, 06:16:11 PM

I was referring to worth less to wear, not to sell.

Furthermore, I see people asking for 30K for those items all the time, but I never see them actually sell. But I suppose it's possible.

Keep in mind that I did a ton of LDoNs at 55 and 60...and so saw a ton of those loot drops...people asking 30K for Rujarkian Knuckles (for example)...well, I find it hard to believe those would ever sell.

katahn · March 11, 2004, 08:12:59 PM

Obviously you aren't levelling while doing AAs. That is axiomatic. I also have levelled a beastlord to 65 (and 40-some-odd AA) and am fully cognizant of the level-based benefits that are gained. In being fully aware of these, I have decided that I do not feel a need to be 65 "right now" nor to put off gathering AAs till 65.

AAs do not "always" come faster at 65.

People who judge or invite others solely on level are being niave, or are gambling that 65 means they will also have the capabilities one expects of a given class at that level. On my cleric, I can assure you that in tanks I have noticed that level is no indicator at all of whether or not a given tank will be a manasponge or not.

"Wasting time" harvesting AAs while lower level not only gives you the benefits of the AAs themselves, which as they start accumulating become more pronounced, especially since your level of difficulty in content isn't changing, but it also gives you more time to get better gear through repeated LDoNs (easier to find these in lower levels I've noticed) or through pure cash farming (since ornate leather patterns aren't horribly expensive.)

EverQuest is not a race to 65, and the game does not start at 65. And its called "alternate advancement" not "secondary advancement" or "alternate advancement once you've reached max level." Alternate means just that...alternate. It means its an option, a way of customizing and enhancing your character outside of levelling. There is no right or wrong way to level vs. AA in EQ. There are simply people who think that levels matter more, and people like me who have a couple level 65s who aren't in as much of a hurry to get there, and those who just aren't in a hurry.

And its all good.

TerjynPovar · March 11, 2004, 08:26:11 PM

AAs do not always come faster at 65.

A horrible 65 group will get AAs slower than a good group of 55s.

But that's not the comparison you really should be making.

A good group of 65s will get AAs very much faster than a good group of 55s...unless said group of 65s is hunting very much beneath themselves.

Similar with the mana sponge comment. Sure, a good 60 tank will be better than a horrible level 65 tank. But an average level 65 tank will outperform an excellent level 60 tank, even if the 60 has somewhat better gear. Level is that important.

Cash farming is easier and faster at 65. You don't get more LDoN drops at lower levels...it's the same RNG that determines names. And again, the drops you do get aren't as worthy of being worn.

I stayed at level 60 to get 24 AAs. I didn't exactly rush to 65. But unless you have some reason for staying at a lower level beyond "Well, great players at lower levels are better than bad ones at upper levels", I think you are making a mistake in going AA. Especially if you are getting Spell Casting Fury 3 before leveling. Repeating my earlier sentiments for a player such as yourself SCF3 is about the worst AA beastlords get...unless you are just looking for eye candy.

katahn · March 11, 2004, 09:11:02 PM

Quote from: TerjynPovarAAs do not always come faster at 65.

Glad we agree

QuoteA horrible 65 group will get AAs slower than a good group of 55s.

Not the point I was making, but I acknowledge that as being true.

QuoteBut that's not the comparison you really should be making.

Good, because it wasn't. My point is that I did not notice an appreciable increase in rate of speed of AA aquisition at 65 over earlier levels. Bear in mind that if I am "grinding" I am doing it solo, while if I am grouping, I am looking to do something a little bit more interesting than waiting for the puller to bring in more mobs. Being overpowered for my level in such situations is often the differance between handling it, and not. And no, I am not just referring to LDoN ;)

QuoteA good group of 65s will get AAs very much faster than a good group of 55s...unless said group of 65s is hunting very much beneath themselves.

I have not observed this in practice. Grouped, I found AA came faster as Zanros Farwanderer in pet-kite groups in my low-50s in Nightmares, or at level 62 grouped with friends in HoH/BoT (which, btw, is the only way I will do those zones, they are overfilled with some of the worst examples of would-be-uberness combined with the tedium of camping/grinding.)

QuoteSimilar with the mana sponge comment. Sure, a good 60 tank will be better than a horrible level 65 tank. But an average level 65 tank will outperform an excellent level 60 tank, even if the 60 has somewhat better gear. Level is that important.

Good, bad, average, are all very subjective. I do know there are more than a few tanks that would have benefitted themselves, and my cleric, and our groups, by taking more time to get to level 65 and while doing so, harvesting points, aa, and cash for buyable upgrades.

QuoteCash farming is easier and faster at 65. You don't get more LDoN drops at lower levels...it's the same RNG that determines names. And again, the drops you do get aren't as worthy of being worn.

Cash farming is a small component. It is a side benefit of taking more time to level, you have more time to accumulate cash.

QuoteI stayed at level 60 to get 24 AAs. I didn't exactly rush to 65. But unless you have some reason for staying at a lower level beyond "Well, great players at lower levels are better than bad ones at upper levels", I think you are making a mistake in going AA. Especially if you are getting Spell Casting Fury 3 before leveling. Repeating my earlier sentiments for a player such as yourself SCF3 is about the worst AA beastlords get...unless you are just looking for eye candy.

Spell casting fury is not "just" eye candy, its also not the first AA I am looking at getting. However, SCF does give more of a DPS boost than CF does which is the other real choice, and when stacked with weapons that are augmented with lifetap procs, provides additional healing that helps mitigate downtime while soloing, since the SCF crit enhances the amount you get healed in this specific case.

My rough plan, is to get Combat Agility 3, Combat Stability 3, and Mental Clarity 3 first, followed up possibly with SCF although its not a certainty, I'll judge when I get there. I prefer MC3 over SCR3 as I noticed that my worst downtime was initially setting up my pet and buffing it up, as well as myself, much worse in comparison to the maintanance costs of those buffs were while I was soloing. But again, thats just me.

And I know that there are a lot of people who are about to start telling me how much of a "waste" Mental Clarity 3 is. Save your fingers. ;) Extra mana regen, even 6aa for one more point, is something I feel is valuable. As a non-raider, the maximum flowing thought I can get out of LDoN is 9, plus 1 for a solstice earring. Also, being a soloer, and looking for ways to mitigate downtime, extra mana regen means I can be up and moving faster since I was almost never (gotta love being a leezard) waiting on hitpoints.

TerjynPovar · March 11, 2004, 10:53:21 PM

I'm very interested in knowing the speed at which you acquire AAs then.

Nightmares is just a horrible, horrible zone for XP in my opinion, having done it on and off from level 52 or so up through 65. At no level did I feel I wasn't somewhat wasting my time.

Tastian · March 12, 2004, 02:52:21 AM

I don't really know numbers for group off the top of my head. However, the poster mentioend solo. At 51 and 55 I know of spots people have done an AA in ~3 hours. Same with 60 and 62. I personally was surprised that my AA rate solo at 65 was about the same and a hair slower in spots at 65 than what I could do at 62. With different spots/moreAA/gear it sped up quite a bit though.

katahn · March 12, 2004, 04:30:05 AM

Quote from: TerjynPovarI'm very interested in knowing the speed at which you acquire AAs then.

Nightmares is just a horrible, horrible zone for XP in my opinion, having done it on and off from level 52 or so up through 65. At no level did I feel I wasn't somewhat wasting my time.

Kite groups work because its constant killing, non-stop, with 1 puller and 5 pet classes (pets provide constant melee damage) and pet owners add in nuking/dotting damage. Its suprisingly fast killing compared to traditional tank/slower/healer+3dps groups, and I was using it to level more than AA since I was trying to get to 56 to start AAing on Zanros, but I was making a yellow of regular xp, as an iksar, in about 30-45 minutes. That was between 52 and 54, although I rarely did it for long as I found it very boring despite being such good xp. Outside of /pet no taunt and /pet attack, beastlords don't offer those groups much except beast crack, which does improve the efficiency of the group, and we can keep regen on the necros and mages.

In Dulak, I was making at 56, an AA every 4 hours or so, with pretty poor gear, weapons, and SCHW for haste. Never had KEI, only self-buffs, and had pet toys about 1/2 the time. This was all solo of course. A friend of mine described how he was making an AA every 3 hours, or a bit less, in his low-50s, on the seafuries, which is something I am planning on trying. Of course, I'm still levelling (slowly given my play times), so I've time enough to worry about it.

After getting two characters to 65, and based on my personal experience, I have to say the best level on either class to go pure AA farming was 62, in terms of experience vs. downtime. It was probably the best of the sweet spots, with the other two being 52 and 56 respectively.