New ideas on AA progression -- Level 70

[Tastian]

"I meant skills can offset some aa's in many of the grouping situations. "

Yeah I know, but I just hrmmmmm take skills for granted for want of a better term.  You can improve your skill, but only to a point.  If I'm playing my 65 beastlord or I'm playing my 55 beastlord I'm simply doing more with the 65.  Some people are very bad players, some are very good players, most fall in the middle though and in that middle gear/AA/etc is something that can make the differance.  Sometimes a player has the skill, but not the power if you know what I mean.  For instance awareness and reflexes can get you to change target to an add and get it slowed fast and start taking it off the healer, but if you don't have the AAs then all you did was buy the cleric 2 seconds.  Of course, if you are afk then the cleric dies quietly and you don't even know it hehe.  Just saying that I know what you mean about skill, but sometimes the skill itself isn't enough as you need the power to make it actually mean something.  Going to stop now because I feel like I'm argueing with you and I'm really not trying to hehe.  I swear it's the SoE boards 8(  Seems like everyone hates everyone there lol.

[Kjin]

For those of you at 65, what is your feeling on this? I assume that there is an implicit understanding that a lvl 65 would be working on AA's and would not be "shunned" if they are not up to speed in AA's but at least could play their class. But what about 70?
.

I'd imagine the new scheme of things, assuming OoW spells are as hard to get as PoP (as opposed to GoD), would go something like this:

1-51 - EXP
51 - Stop, run3
51-65 - EXP
65 - Paragon, MGB, Possibly some Defensive
65-70 - EXP
70 - AA's

Levels will always be more important than AA's. Plus the higher level you are, the more AA's you can get. People will just adjust their conception of what you "should have" at 65.

[Oneiromancer]

51 - Stop, run3

This doesn't make sense to me as a Beastlord.  We get SoW...SoShrew is tough to get (since it's in Guk) but Pack Shrew is in Mistmoore, easily the most popular LDoN location at lower levels.  I had enough points for Pack Shrew (72 I think) before I made 44, the level you can use it at.  (And I got SoShrew after my first Guk, at 65, and I still use it on pets and low level guildies indoors.)  I couldn't imagine having to get level 52 4 times, basically, just to be able to run slightly slower than I can buff myself at any time.  For a non-speed-enhancing class, perhaps...but as a Beastlord that really boggles my mind.  Exp wasn't so fast at 51 that I'd want to do it over and over again.  I definitely think it should wait for a few levels at least--until 55, say, when one could get a PoV/PoS group and actually watch the exp flow quickly.

And yeah, I know that there are always going to be crazy emergency situations, like your SoW gets debuffed while you're running through the Hole or something like that...oh well, crap happens.   :twisted:  

Game on,

[Toghat]

Levels will always be more important than AA's. Plus the higher level you are, the more AA's you can get. People will just adjust their conception of what you "should have" at 65.

Hmm well let me think about this for a minute. Let's say that the amount of xp to go from 51 to 52 is the amount of xp required to gain one AA(which was established that it is). Now let's take a look at the level difference from 51 to 70 -- 19 levels. Now I know it's not completely accurate, but  think about the power difference between lvl 1 and lvl 20....  I wonder whether or not by level 70 AA xp becomes almost too easy..... I imagine someone could argue that you could xp to 70 and then cakewalk through AA's if you wanted (granted it would be a bit boring and you would miss part of the game, but you could). Now I don't mean that the actual earning of xp would be easier, but basically the xp per kill of a db at lvl 70 would result in quite a bit more AA XP than a DB at 60 or even 65..... Hmmmm...

I, for one, like the idea I read earlier and am reconsidering my original AA plans based on it. I had completely forgotten that spells get a bit harder to get (i.e. you can't buy em all anymore) in the higher levels, and I am one who likes to have their spells in advance or at the level when they are usable. So I think I will try the AA while getting spells method -- in which one AA's until they get all of the spells they need for their current level and then they move on.....

I just realized the pain (well maybe not pain but man it sure hurts :) ) of this as I dinged 44 and realized I don't have that good of a chance of getting malaria until I am around 52 or so  (which is funny because I was able to get Bond of the wild at 43....)

Now I know that one might argue that I would be able to get those spells that I miss more easily by gaining in level, but I just like to have them at the point I can use them. Also I can use the extra time to actually become an effective beastlord ..... I don't feel like I have learned to play one that well and yet somehow have stumbled to 44 -- but that's another conversation.

[Oneiromancer]

Malaria is useful for a long long time...so don't worry too much about getting it late.  I'd say it's useful until you get Scorpion Venom at 61 at least.

The point abut getting AAs really fast at 70 is a good one.  I am sure the OoW AAs will be insanely expensive.  However, don't forget that when mobs turn lblue you'll take a big xp hit.  Tastian has said before that one of his favorite AA spots was Fungus Grove mushrooms, which only started turning lblue when he hit 63, I think, making them unviable for xp.  That will start happening when we surpass 65.  I love Torgiran Mines, but I am sure that the mobs there will turn lblue above 65.  Grieg's End might not turn lblue until 68 or 69, but I bet those mobs will too.  

Hopefully the conning won't be as big a fiasco as when PoP first came out, but you never know...it could all get a lot worse.  When mobs do start conning differently, will you be able to easily handle the mobs that are now dblue?  What if the only things that con dark blue to you are PoV or higher type mobs?  Yes, many 65 beastlords can solo them, but it's not usually considered efficient.  This will be another factor for me when the time comes around--besides having my spells, will my favorite zones be no longer worth going to for me, or will I be "forced" to go to zones I don't feel I can kill efficiently in?  Since the spells are so far pretty lackluster, I'm thinking that the AAs will have to be pretty spectacular for me to want to level above 65 right now.

And don't forget the whole focus effect issue--what if all of the "blah blah IV" items don't get extended past level 65, and we have to get all new "blah blah V" items?  If an unfocused >65 spell is worse than the focused <66 version of it...what's the point in getting the new version until you get the higher focus?

So...way too many variables to really say now, in my opinion.  

Game on,

[TerjynPovar]

One minor nit.  At 65, in spite of the fact that the mushrooms in Fungus grove are light blue, you can still AA XP pretty darn quick on them, because they are so easy you can mow them down *fast*, and take almost no damage on yourself if your MR/DR are both in the 100+ range, since they spend all their time casting and not meleeing.

This especially applies to the not so uber bazaar geared Beastlord.

[Caali]

AA are nice to have and useful too.

I say that first so you don't get the wrong impression. But if you're looking at a pure power levels > AA. That doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to hold back (in fact I wrote a guide on it, stickied in this forum Level vs AA Guide). But I would take a 65 BL with 0 AA over a 63 BL with 50 AA any day of the week (if you're talking about fighting the same mobs with both chars).

As I see it, levels are must have, AA are utility. Remember pets, spells, damage chart, etc. are all directly related to levels.

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[Tastian]

First a quick nitpick 8P  Slow/stun/curse from shrooms all save againist disease.  Not quite sure what you'd use MR for there.  Maybe if throwing down with lotuses?

The main thing so many people miss about the levels verse AA thing is that it's not linear and not everyone played the game at the sametime.  If you have a level 70 with 0 AA it's very likely the player has put very little time into the character outside of exp'n.  This can lead to lack of spells and subpar gear, among other things such as a general lack of class knowledge.  However, there have been some amazing players that at various times haven't been close to max level.  I remember having a 64 monk friend join up for an LDoN at one point and everyone was wondering why I'd get a 64.  Guy had max AA pre-PoP and top item in every slot except for 3 up to that time as well.  He flat out dusted most most monks not only in terms of gear, but play time and skill.  

What will happen with OoW especially is that the cap will go to 70 and the levels before people AA become even further apart.  Also you'll have more people coming back to the game (hopefully).  This means you are very likely to see 67th level 300 AA time geared beastlords and a 70th level 3 AA'd beastlord that isn't even close to top end bazaar gear.  With PoP it was possible that something like 65 spells fero/sha's would tip the scale if you were main slower or adding fero to some over those that don't use savagery.  With OoW atm though other than our pet what is there for a huge upgrade?  A 70th level beastlord will possibly add a few more hps and a few more points of attack to the group.  Currently SD upgrade means 1 more mana per tick regen.  As it stands right now especially with OoW the gap between a new level 70 and a seasoned (leveled, geared, skilled) 65(ish) beastlord is quite high.  

Whether people choose to level or AA is as always up to them and I'd never tell them otherwise.  Like I said uptop though I'd much rather be the uberest 67th level beastlord in the game well waiting on my 68-70 spells than a level 70 that simply can't paragon, can't OT, does less damage, etc.  As always personal preferance.  8)

Oh and also remember that we don't know how LDoNs will scale atm.  It's possible that normal level 70 missions will be equivilant to hard 65 missions atm.  If that is the case you will see some people padding their numbers with lower level people so they get missions that work for the group they have.

[Gourgeous George]

With regards to the discussion about level 60 with 50AA or level 65 with no AA.

Let me just add firstly that I am very much pro-AAs because I feel a poorly geared, zero AA'd, 65 Bst is far more of a liability to his level 65 group peers, especially in Bastion of Karnors and other Tier 2/3 planar zones, than a level 60 better geared/AA'd Bst in it's respective groups/zones.

Realistically, you have to be pretty desperate to bring a level 60 Bst into high end zones, so for most you are unlikely to face hard/fast hitting mobs, giving you that much more survivability. Whereas a level 65 Bst with nothing but the it's level tag in Bastion, acting as primary slower or offtank is more likely to find slow agro (especially where it bounces once or twice) to land him/her in "Bind" village with his/her groupies soon to follow if slow hasn't landed yet. Mobs hit that much harder and faster that it would be a waste of mana keeping the group in rezzes and buffs and in turn xp.

HOWEVER, in the long run, I think if your mates are levelling to 65 1st, work on the same goals and if they are AAing 1st then do the same. There's no point being 60 if your mates are 65 and vice versa because EQ is supposed to be a social game. You will live, die and learn together.

If you're sole aim is to be level 65 irrespective of your mates or people you began levelling with, then by all means go for 65 1st, but expect to die more frequently and not pull your weight in groups.

I don't xp that much anymore, but even with 437 AAs I will have to turn my hand to grinding a few more now that I have access to the Elemental Planes in preparation for Oow. I don't intend to get Oow AAs and levels ahead of reducing the number of old AAs I have yet to clear, only to find that 5% AA per group kill becomes 2/3% AA per group kill.

[Eatbugs]

The other part, of course, is that since the trip to 65 is so fast these days, I'm meeting a LOT of 65 Beastlords lately who simply don't have the experience and skills I expect from someone at the top end of the class.

Pet control, aggro control, mob positioning, pet parking, raiding skills, proximity and pet pulling, what (and when) to offtank or preslow, splitting mobs, timing self/pet/group heals when things go bad, aggro kiting...  some people pick these up fairly quickly once they get some help or watch someone else doing them - and some don't.

Please don't make me group with the level 70's who haven't learned any of this stuff.  :P

[a_moss_snake_001]

I personally would go levels before AA.

Why?

1. More creatures will be lower level than you and many that were red before may now turn white con or yellow. While this may offer some reductions in XP for killing those creatures it has the following advantages:

- Your spells will be resisted less (if your level < mobs level they get a bonus to resist your spells, if you = mobs level they get no bonus, if you > mobs level they get a penalty to resist your spells)

- Greater resistance bonuses (and/or less penalties) vs mob spells due to level difference. So you will resist spells more often and take overall less dmg. (see above, flip-side of that coin).

- Greater overall mitigation (and/or less penalties) vs mob hits due to level difference (if your level < mobs level you suffer a penalty vs their hits and will be hit more frequently and for harder, if you = mobs level then no penalty or bonus, if you > mobs level then you get a bonus in terms of mitigating/avoiding their hits. Note this is probably some kind of invisible AC bonus or change in the mitigation/avoidance tables you use vs that mob, but no-one really knows for sure).

- Less mob mitigation vs your hits (see above, flip-side of that coin).

- Less creatures will aggro on you due to the "I'm scared" modifier to aggro (in older expansions anyway).

These points *especially* affect raid mobs, many tough raid mobs will become MUCH easier simply due to a higher average level for the players in that raid.

2. You have the ability to use more spells
For hybrids and pure casters spells are HUGE upgrades. The new OoW spells offer at LEAST 10% upgrades to all current spells and several new affects. For Beastlords that means stronger pets, better pet haste, better overall buffs, better pet heals, better fero, better nukes and *probably* a better slow spell (with -resist adj). In any group these spells are FAR more likely to go to someone who can use them NOW rather than someone who can use them in 1-5 levels time. Imagine your new HP with the new Virtue (or new druid skin + new symbol) + new shammy Focus + new Brells etc. Many old affects such as the shaman agility line now have affects like +% avoidance. {new spells > all}.

3. You have the ability to use more equipment
I fully expect to see "Required Level: 66+" or "Recommended Level: 66+" on new equipment. Even some of the more powerful pieces of "older" equipment may get "re-balanced" with this level range in mind.

4. You have the ability to do more quests
I also expect to see quests that require L66+ in OoW. It *will* happen (if not soon then eventually).

5. You have the ability to gain the new AA's
Anyone willing to place a bet that many of the more powerful new AA's will be level restricted? aka, you can purchase one level of <x> AA every level starting at L66. blah blah blah. You just KNOW it will happen.

6. You take advantage of the psychological affect amongst players that the highest level brings.
Ever been level L60-64 and noticed that many L65's look down on you and won't include you in their group? Snotty I know but it happens and its very very common. People naturally want the best people they can get in their groups and many wrongly look at the level of the player before ANYTHING else. When OoW is released I can almost *guarantee* L66+ people will find it easier to get groups than L65, and once more and more people become L70 then players who are below that level will notice its harder to get into groups until they reach that magical number. This WILL happen.

7. You gain the higher class titles
This may or may not be a good thing but we will see. For example rogues go from being "Assassin"(L63-L64) to "Deciever"(L65). Assassin is a waaaaaaaaay cooler title imho.

8. Various caps raise
Possibilities include:-
- Higher max stat caps
- Higher reward for LDoN (based on avg level of group)
- Higher cap on max % haste (w/o overhaste)
- Various level restrictions on spells raised (eg. charm higher level, mez higher level, stun higher level, fear higher level etc.). These of course are dependant on the new spells.
- Higher base HP/Mana/End (modifier calculated using lvl).

~~~~ etc etc ~~~~~

So in summary, simply raising a single level can and will bring far more advantages than even the most powerful of our AA's will grant. That raid mob suddenly being DB to him will help any tank far more than LR5+ID5 combined and any caster far more than SCS3+SCF3 combined. And thats not including the other advantages I listed.

But.... its your choice :)

Do whatever makes your little heart happy!

[Toghat]

The other part, of course, is that since the trip to 65 is so fast these days, I'm meeting a LOT of 65 Beastlords lately who simply don't have the experience and skills I expect from someone at the top end of the class.

Pet control, aggro control, mob positioning, pet parking, raiding skills, proximity and pet pulling, what (and when) to offtank or preslow, splitting mobs, timing self/pet/group heals when things go bad, aggro kiting...  some people pick these up fairly quickly once they get some help or watch someone else doing them - and some don't.

Please don't make me group with the level 70's who haven't learned any of this stuff.  :P

First off, I want to thank everyone for participating so much in this topic! I never expected as many responses with useful information as I have received! This just makes me realize that choosing a BL (finally after 4 months of playing numerous other classes!) was a good choice -- the community support is strong.

Having said that, Eatbugs' plea is the challenge I seem to be presented with and one that spurred me to start this topic.  I DON'T want to be a level 65/70 that hasn't learned any of this stuff. But of course, I don't want to be level 51 and try to earn level 52 over and over and over again in the quest for AA.  So I am trying to find the balance -- and have read the guides. The guides are about to change though (to what extent, who knows)  with a level cap increase. And by trying to avoid the problems outllined above, I may be better off by AA'ing through the 50's instead of set levelling. Biggest problem I have is the dearth of activity for my level on my server.

The information I am getting  from this thread is truly helping guide me and develop a picture of what will occur in another 6 weeks.  Heh, not like I will be 65 then or even in my 60's (as I have said before) but this information will help.

So, who wants to open up the BL training school?

[Tastian]

There are certain things about the level that simply can't be known at this point either.  Just how big the spell upgrades are, how available they will be, how much harder monsters get, etc.  I know some beastlords that lingered around 60 for a few weeks after PoP came out just so they could get their spells and some AAs and not have to move up to the planes for much harder blue con kills.  Not everyone will be ready to move up to the next level.  

It really does vary by person and that's why I don't stereotype.  I find as much merit in judging a one person by an entire group as I do in judging an entire group by one person.  Some people will be more prepared than others for the level.  There are bad players at all levels and progression points in the game.   It will really depend what the expansion offers people and what your situation is as to what is the best decision for you.  Soon the expansion hits you will see people asking direct questions like "I don't have a guild, I just solo, I can't get any of my spells because they cost too much atm, if I ding my focus effects don't work, etc should I level?"  In a situation like that most would say no, don't level yet.  Of course, it assumes things we can't know quite yet, and assuming is bad mmmkay? hehe

[TerjynPovar]

First a quick nitpick 8P  Slow/stun/curse from shrooms all save againist disease.  Not quite sure what you'd use MR for there.  Maybe if throwing down with lotuses?

Yeah, I used to inevitably end up agroing a lotus or two while I was there.  It has been a long time since I did these, because in my later days I was never trying for raw XP, I was always XPing with something else in mind (Droga/Nurga quests, Tribute, etc).

[Kromjr]

I just went to 65 with 6'aas. I would have hit 65 with none but wanted to slow down for my wifes cleric. Our spells rock in the 60's its why I went levels first. I could see staying around 62-63 if you have a leveling group all the time that doesnt mind you being that level. Me I had to get to 65 I was passed up for alot of ldons and bot groups because I was not 65 with the 65 percent slow. 60 to 64 was kinda weird for me I did alot of it soloing groups were much more difficult to get than at 65.