What you think of Roar of Thunder

Bengali · August 29, 2004, 08:54:05 PM

We still don't know if the reuse on the current version will be 72 mins, btw. :)

You'll never get a mana-free ability that stuns mobs up to the same level as a pally stun and for a full second longer, and refreshes every 3 minutes. It's just not gonna happen.

I also don't see why there's such an emphasis on when you can't use it (like in the middle of a pack of mezzed mobs). Clearly there are times when you can. If people can't think of a time when landing up to four 1.5-3k (depending on crits) nuke stuns at once would be useful, then they aren't thinking hard enough in my opinion. There is a significant downside to it (i.e., you don't want to use it at the wrong time), but there is a significant downside to things like lifeburn and manaburn too.

And in an era of simply pressing buttons every time they refresh, this is something that actually benefits more if you think about how to use it, and is very stackable meaning that if you have 5 beastlords with this ability then you are better off than if you just had one.

As for the other two largest concerns, i.e., dps and aggro reduction, keep in mind that we still have quite a few placeholder spells and for all we know one of them will be something like jolt. On the dps front, we're getting new nukes, new dots, new pets, new damage increasing aa, new damage tables and new weapons, and there's only so much "pure dps" that needs adding, really.

Finally, for those concerned about the reuse (which isn't final), I'll only say that I just finished up a hard Guk LDoN, and not once did I feel the need to use frenzy of spirit or paragon, and those have reuse times of 12-15 mins. There was a time in the adventure where if I'd had roar of thunder in its current form (i.e., as a targeted AE) then I would have saved two deaths. As it turns out, I only would've needed to use it once for that adventure anyway, and it would be up again as I type this (that assumes a 72 minute reuse, which I cannot emphasize enough is not necessarily what the final reuse will be, and it's not necessarily what the reuse time that is currently being tested is either).

Liga · August 30, 2004, 01:56:56 AM

What I think most people are trying to do(myself included) is to head this "problem" off before it starts. Yes, some see it akin to the Tureptan Spirit problem. Bengali, I am sure that you could be one of the proponents for it to change(not saying you are, but you could be b/c youd likely not use it), but you wanting it changed gips the lower levels who would use it. So yes, each spell created "could" have a use. Hell, Im sure Sentinel could have a use for something, somewhere, sometime but that doesnt mean it should stay in the game for that reason. Turn Undead has a limited use in the game and has been around for quite a long time. Yet you could probably count the number of clerics who use it on one hand. We're all allowed to voice our opinions as this is a Community board. No one is right, no one is wrong but we can all have an opinion because we all pay to play this damned game.

(you were the previous poster so I picked you, nothing personal Beng)

Bengali · August 30, 2004, 07:06:28 AM

I'm the last person to discourage people from voicing their opinion, and I never said anything remotely resembling anything that would lead people to believe that I don't think they should speak their mind about the game. I'm just doing the same, which is stating my own opinion and pointing out where I think people are overreacting based on incomplete information and a lack of imagination.

Take turn undead for example. That aa is busted. It's busted because you have to be level 59 to get it, and from the moment you train it, it won't work on level 55+ mobs at all, which means you are forced to bottom feed with it. That, combined with the fact that it only works on a single mob type in the first place means that it is pretty darn useless unless you're farming for bone chips or something.

That's still different from Roar, which works on all mob types. Even those immune to stun will still be hit by the DD. It will have some effect on any mob in the game provided that they aren't immune to magic.

It's also different from Tureptan Spirit, which isn't a bad spell idea in itself (heck the community REQUESTED it), but it drops in a spot that currently makes it inaccessible to the people who really want to use it. As for changing it, my suggestion would be to make it so that it's group kragg and infusion, which helps the beastlords who group with non stat-capped people and those who group with people who are stat capped and don't have shaman focus. Not like that's remotely relevant to this discussion but you're the one who brought it up.

Again, that too is different from Roar. Even level 70s who get it may find a use for a 1.5k DD every x minutes, unlike many who got tureptan spirit.

I respect everyone's right and desire to want to head off "problems", but I think they should actually think them through instead of having a knee jerk reaction to them. Here's a laundry list:

1. "We need a way to shed aggro, not gain it."": Absolutely correct. But perhaps the better solution to aggro problems is for one of the PH spells to be a jolt-type spell, or a jolting blades-type hate lowering proc. Perhaps instead of a "Cinder Jolt" spell, beastlords need n "Icy Jolt" spell. That's just a thought and suggestion from one guy, me. Maybe we're barking up the wrong tree by getting bent out of shape because this doesn't lower aggro when in reality there are plans for us to control aggro with a spell.

Then again, maybe there are no such plans and aa is the way to go. But if you look at the way they design aa abilities they just don't design most of them with fast reuse times, and the shorter the reuse time on the ability, the less useful the effect is going to be. We can ask for a deaggro aa all we want, and Vegas odds are still that we end up with something that we can't use that often or that doesn't do much when we do use it. So people should keep that in mind.

2. "I don't want to break mez with it": Good call. If you don't want to break mez with it then don't break mez with it. This isn't an ability with an AE range of 400 where it's guaranteed to break mez every time you use it. It has an ae range of 25. To put that in perspective, Feral swipe has a range of 50, and everyone complains that they can't hit anything with it unless they are right on top of it. This AE has half of that range, which means that it's not that hard for people to be able to use this out of mez range if they are paying attention. Just because it can be AE doesn't mean you have to use it on multiple targets, either.

Again, there are going to be some times when you absolutely can't use it. I personally don't think people should be "sad" and "angry" (words that people have used in reference to this aa) because they can't use it in the middle of a pack of mezzed mobs. I have a crapload of abilities that I can't use on mezzed mobs. It's not the end of the world. Again, that's just my opinion.

Still, be careful what you wish for, people. If we want a no damage stun we have to ask ourselves what happens when we fight mobs that are above level 70 and our aa no longer does anything at all. We have to ask ourselves what happens when we're fighting mobs that are *below* level 70 and are immune to stun and our aa no longer does anything. We have to ask ourselves how often we need to stun mobs that are already mezzed anyway (which is what people's fear is, that they will wake up mezzed mobs by using this). If we want a 5 second stun, be prepared to hear "no, we don't want beastlords to have a stun that lasts longer than the paladin's level 70 ancient stun."

Similarly, if we want a single target DD and nothing else, fine. But just because we want something with a reuse of 3 mins or whatever doesn't mean it's going to happen. The most likely thing to happen is that it goes back to being a single target DD with no stun and the same reuse. And then it's just another lame ability to put on a hotkey that doesn't really do anything. You know we're not going to get something like harmtouch, so again temper your expectations.

3. "It should be a DD ability that adds ~3 dps which wouldn't be overpowering in the least": Well, that depends on who you ask. Coprolith warned that we should not fall into the same trap that others have and just divide x by y and get z, which we then conclude is not overpowering because z is a small number. Every 72 minutes an SK can land a 10k harmtouch, which is ~2.3 dps and pretty insignificant as far as sustained dps. But the power of HT isn't in the sustained dps it provides, now is it? (note to SKs: I'm not trying to imply that HT is overpowering).

4. "This ability isn't going to help me when I'm trying to stop a mob from gating, because it will just cast gate again while I'm waiting for the reuse": Except when the 1500 to 3000 points of damage you do, plus the 3 second stun, gives you enough time to kill the mob before it gates.

5. "A stun isn't useful unless I can use it 2-3 times a fight": Well, I gave an example of an everyday situation where that isn't the case. I was in a LDoN mission, we got two adds that killed the cleric and tank before the bard could lock them down. If I'd had roar I could've stunned those two adds while simultaneously killing the almost dead mob that we were fighting. That would have given the bard time to mez and even if the mez was resisted I would've had aggro instead of one of the others, and protective spirit would have bought us a ton of time to get things under control. That's not some esoteric situation where the aa is only useful when Lodizal and Stormfeather are both up and facing north-by-northwest at high tide during the summer solstice. It's not even as rare as being a level 65+ player in a room full of sub-55 undead mobs.

6. "We should have gotten one of the other aa abilities we suggested instead, since we didn't ask for a DD stun ability.": Hey, don't look at me, none of my suggestions for proposed OoW abilities were DD/stuns either. Again, I'm just betting that it's not all that likely that there will be a radical change 2 weeks before the expansion and all of a sudden we get some entirely different aa.

Anyway, my opinion is still that roar of thunder in its current form on Test is considerably more interesting than people are giving it credit for. This aa is not the solution to all beastlord problems, nor is it an ability that is going to make people stand up and say, "wow get a beastlord so he can roar at stuff!" To me, the cool thing about it is that the damage part of the stun is both a blessing and a curse -- which means that because there is some risk to using it the reuse time doesn't have to be insanely high nor does it have to be so gimped that it only works in one zone or something.

Choppin · August 30, 2004, 11:26:32 AM

I dont think I will buy an AA I can fire that rarely (and surely not to impress some low levels or use it once per LDoN), I d be probably better of with feral swipe for dps which is laughable. (stopping a runner ? or a gater ? hahahaha yea lets see how quick I can dig out that dusty ability once in a blue moon)

As it is I wish they would scrap the AA and give us a copy of the GoD AA MGB timer reduction AA.

Nalitra · August 30, 2004, 12:42:51 PM

I guess I am also odd man out opinion wise on this AA. I kind of like it.

Yeah, its situational, but, even with a long reuse timer, it gives us an ability we didn't have before.

Also keep in mind, with a the new expansion, this ability could actually be designed with a purpose in mind. A specific role that will arise in OOW that we would be equiped to handle.

I can think of a lot worse things we could end up with if we push to have this changed.

Nalitra [/img]

Bengali · September 01, 2004, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: NalitraI can think of a lot worse things we could end up with if we push to have this changed.

Nal, you're a prophet. :)

Deiadrox · September 12, 2004, 09:28:10 AM

IMO, refresh timer is 10mins or less.. I don't want another BA aa.. nice and pretty but really no usefulness except on raids. Seriously, I put BA on my third hotkey page and I only really use it when the other beasts in my guild want to liven up a raid.
One thing I'm going to have to really try is if it completely mem-blurs a mob if you are <2250aggro hehe... FD! =P