ND3 or CA3?

[Dakat]

My opinion is that ND or CA is a definate bonus.

Though I feel that ND is more of a bonus than CA is.

ND

Each skill level increases the character's natural hit points (hit point total without any buffs or magic items). The first skill level increases the character's hit points by 2%, the second skill level raises the hit point increase to 5% and the third raises the increase to 10%.

gives you overall hitpoints based on your current hp and + sta.

CA

Each skill level gives the character an increased chance to avoid being hit in combat (damage avoidance). The first skill level increases the character's ability to avoid being hit by 2%, the second skill level raises the damage avoidance increase to 5% and the third raises the increase to 10%.

To me seems it only effects melee damage being delt to you. It has no effect on how spells deal damage to you. If you actually get hit with a melee swing from a mob or not.

CS

Each skill level gives the character an increased ability to reduce the damage he takes in combat (damage mitigation). The first skill level increases the character's damage mitigation by 2%, the second skill level raises the damage mitigation increase to 5% and the third raises the increase to 10%.

This to me is also melee based. It removed a % of the damage you would have been delt when a hit lands on you. Instead of getting hit for 255, its now reduced to 220.

None of the above except ND will actually help you survive an AOE. The more hp you have the more you can be hit by the AOE before death. That AOE will either hit you or bounce depending on your Resists.

Have you ever been hit with an AOE DD, that normally does 750 only do 675? I have not.

Now this is just based off a beast during a raid. Where they should not be getting melee hit or OTing at all. If they are, then there's something wrong there.

[Aneya]

In my experience, AoEs come in 2 forms.

1. Your Resist are not high enougth so you're dead
and
2. You can't touch me because I've maxed my resist.

As a result it is more effective to raise resist than it is to get ND to counter AoEs.

IMHO unless you are required by guild to get ND maxed there are much better AAs to get. Heck I rather max natural healing instead of ND.

[Vidyne]

Always thought of CS as a higher chance to mitigate... not necessarily better mitigation...

Turkeybees still hit me for 544, and I think they hit me for 544 before CS/ID.

My view of it, is on each hit, there is a % chance to mitigate 1/2 damage, all damage, all but min damage, etc... whatever... i dunno exactly.

Someone correct me, my thinking probably wrong.

It just seems, I mitigate MORE often with CS/ID, as in... instead of getting hit
544, 544, 233, 544, 544, 490, 544, 544

I get hit
544, 233, 519, 544, 360, 290, 544, 233

/shrug.
Not exact figures but....
erm nm, im probably wrong, is just what it seems like to me.

Not sure on Turkeybees max hit.. its 540ish.. I know it hasnt changed tho, since I was 65/20 or so in a group in CY til today when I solo there with 200+ aa.  I tank ALOT better, but the max hit is still the same.

[Oneiromancer]

Exactly, mitigation just changes the average hit...shifts the probablility of getting hit for a certain value around.  To be more specific, it makes it less likely for you to be hit for max damage but that possibility is still there.

Game on,

[Cathartic]

I think being able to completely aviod incoming damage is better than mitigating that damage better i hope most would agree with this.  So i say CA>CS.  Ii is also better to completely aviod melee damage then to just buff your hp so the damage effects your total hp less. So i would say CA>ND as well. Its been awhile since ive been in the planes but i know you will be getting some elemental armor upgrades shortly after starting to farm the names in Fire.  Hp will come aviodance is something you will not get through gear until you are into time and GoD.  Im a hardcore aviodance player, i love it and bottom line is CA and LR will help you when in those xp groups that you will certianly be doing with most your free time( 2 raid days a week).  This will help you get more AAs than you can get ND and others im sure you already know you need.  These mystical AEs that 2-4 hundred more hp will save your life simply dont exist in the planes, i can however recall many events where you are being gang raped by alot of mobs at once and CA would help.  CA over ND, would prolly get LR after CA too.

Cathartic

[Hereki]

Thinking of Elementals, there are plenty of rings and fights where it is absolutely certainly that you will be taking melee damage.  Even on boss fights, ripostes are possible if positioning gets messed up, which does happen.

[Tastian]

"I think being able to completely aviod incoming damage is better than mitigating that damage better i hope most would agree with this. So i say CA>CS. Ii is also better to completely aviod melee damage then to just buff your hp so the damage effects your total hp less. So i would say CA>ND as well."

Problem with that comparision is even if it's accurate in theory it's ignoring how weighted each AA is.  Suppose CA allowed you to avoid 1 attack in 50, but CS mitigated every hit.  Supposed ND gave 50 hps or 700hps.  Not saying I disagree with you, but you aren't putting any weight onto it.  CS also improves as you get more AC and deals with the softcap.  It doesn't lower the max hit you take, but rather changes the distribution of hits againist you and shifts those DI's down.

In this case that comparion works pretty well because of the actual values of ca/cs/nd, but that same arguement can be made for agi over sta, but without factoring in exactly how much is giving you can get some skewed views.

[Mneumenth]

Avoidance/CA, IMO, doesnt show its true benefits/colors until you actually get to the LR cycle.  In general, and especially LR5, Avoidance > Mitigation.

[Giledorm]

I just finished up LR5 and have to say I'm very pleased I went that way.  Just with this (only 1 in ND and CS), I've seen a drastic decrease in the damage I take.  I would have to say get your avoidance maxed and your resists through the roof if your'e worried about AE's.

Now onto finishing Weapon Affinity... /sigh... /grind on

[Araden]

Adding 400 hp's onto your "bottom end" does in fact do more for you than simply giving you 400 more points to take hits with.  It helps reduce in effect the damage you take from an ae over time since you have more hp's to handle it with, ie percentage wise the ae takes off less of your health bar, which also shifts your low health agro point up.  

Speaking as a former raid leader for an elemental guild,  I'd advise spending the 12 points for ND3 because it's a lot of bang for the buck,  and once it's done it's done.   12 points for a lot of hp's.. or 25 points to max LR5.. and still have other defensive aa's to go.  Just finish off the HP's to help survivability and then go for more.

Your healers will appreciate the extra hp's on ya when dealing with those ae'ing mobs,  I guarentee it.

[Tastian]

This is what I said...

"ND adds hps to the BOTTOM of your hp pool. Outside of binding wound, CHs (if you get CH'd you are tanking most likely! lol), and low health aggro max hps aren't doing much."

Now, in the ele planes and such what AEs are you really facing?  You've got 3 waves of 1k off sol ro.  You've got 2k off blazz.  You've got arbs dot ticking you into the floor if you don't resist it.  400 more hps is "nice", but you have other things to consider.

Also hps can be made up elsewhere.  Like I said what about a 4k unbuffed bst without ND3 and a 3.5k unbuffed bst with ND3?  You can get 150 hps off tribute, you can get 75 raw hps off food, you can get a single upgrade from ornate to ele and cover another 100hps.  ND gives something you can gain just about anywhere and is all over in EP progression.  However, find an item or a tribute that will mimic the effects of CA3 or LR.  More agi isn't going to cover it, there's no tribute for it, that uber +dodge mod certainly isn't doing it.  

Also the thought of "hey it's 12 AA and it's done" doesn't work for me because that same logic could be used to justify SCF3 over melee AAs.  I mean hey spend 12 AA and you are done improving your nukes, where as if you get BF5 you still need ambi and sinister and CF, etc to boost your offensive melee.

It's a personal choice really, but requiring ND is requiring a means, not an end.  If your guild requires 5k unbuffed that works and ND can help you get there, but to say one person that has an AA that does nothing but grant more hps is better off or more suitible than someone else who in fact has more hps even without the AA just makes no sense.

[Bengali]

Also hps can be made up elsewhere.  Like I said what about a 4k unbuffed bst without ND3 and a 3.5k unbuffed bst with ND3?  You can get 150 hps off tribute, you can get 75 raw hps off food, you can get a single upgrade from ornate to ele and cover another 100hps.

And ND will scale with all of those things.  Most of the time, when people upgrade an item, they upgrade the hps, which means with ND you get even more hps than the item shows.  Just another thing to consider.

It really depends on how many melee hits you expect to take.  If most of the damage that you take is non-melee, get ND first.  If most of the damage that you take is melee damage, then go for CA.  It's really hard to make a bad choice with these two since at some point every beastlord should have both.

[Oneiromancer]

And ND will scale with all of those things.  Most of the time, when people upgrade an item, they upgrade the hps, which means with ND you get even more hps than the item shows.  Just another thing to consider.

Hmm, actually, I don't think that's true at all.  ND scales your base hp, including that gained from STA.  If your item has STA on it, then I think ND increases the hp from the STA, but it won't increase the raw hp from that item.  Easy to test in-game, though, if there isn't a definitive answer.

Game on,

[Bengali]

And ND will scale with all of those things.  Most of the time, when people upgrade an item, they upgrade the hps, which means with ND you get even more hps than the item shows.  Just another thing to consider.

Hmm, actually, I don't think that's true at all.  ND scales your base hp, including that gained from STA.  If your item has STA on it, then I think ND increases the hp from the STA, but it won't increase the raw hp from that item.  Easy to test in-game, though, if there isn't a definitive answer.

Game on,

You don't even have to go in game to do it, you can check it by playing around with magelo.  For example, I took an old fake magelo profile that I had done, where his equipment is way over the stamina cap:

Clobberin Tyme

And I did an alternate profile where I switched out his Exquisite Puresteel Wraps for a Hammer of the Timeweaver.  The EPQ has 155 hps, the Timeweaver has 220.  That's a difference of 65 hps.  Stamina with either weapon is 305 unbuffed.  Equipping the timeweaver changed the hps from 7293 to 7366, which is a difference of 73 hps, not 65.  73 is about 12% more than 65, which corresponds to the HP increase from ND3  and PE, both of which have been trained by my fake beastlord.

"Base" hps includes your hp from equipment.  The only thing that ND doesn't augment is hps you get from pure hp buffs.

[Tastian]

Yeah ND runs off sta, base hps, +sta from gear, +sta from buffs +hps from gear/augs/etc.  It just doesn't boost the hps gained from say virtue or kragg.  Or from things like leadership AA now.