Offensive AA path

[iamweaver]

I see several folks putting WA up there on the list of offensive abilities.  Personally, given your gearing (and your likely gear in the near future) I would push WA5 way down the list.  Until you have the capital and time to invest in proc-heavy weapons, I would focus more on the combat AA's.   Of course, this is coming from a BST that's too lazy to invest his *own* AA's into WA, long after he should have :p.  What can I say - I wanted to parse out IBF5 first to gainsay the folks who disbelieved the often-publicly stated returns :).

[Tastian]

iam-  You have to realize what he has available and just how poor some of our AAs are though.  Even with only the 5(ish) or so proc dps he has atm he's going to see a return on WA compareable to what warders alacrity would give him.  Warders alacrity gives a better return than warders fury, debateable with feral swipe, better than every rank of combat fury except for the first, better than every rank of SCF except for the first(depending on his nuking habits), worse than ambi, and of course worse than BF.  What other options for offensive AAs do they really have?  Max BF(for level), maybe snag CF1 if they want(it's a good deal), maybe snag SCF1(it's a decent deal and "fun" to most), then you have ambi if you want to unload the points on it and suddenly you find yourself where WA is the best return in terms of damage to AA spent ratio.  WA is a monster return on AAs so that even without an ED or anything it still beats out a lot of other options.  Especially at a lower end where melee dps isn't all that good to start with.  *shrugs*  Still should go with whatever they want, but combat aas especially early are pretty lacking for bst outside of BF.

[shenk]

Sorien.. not wanting to flame, and I've not read discussion about it elsewhere, so I'm curious.. why go for Healing gift over adept first?

If you do not want to get your life tap augs, then just take out the Healing Gift 3.  If you do want to get your life tap augs, but at a later date, then just move Healing Gift further down the line until you actually do get them.

If I remember correctly, Spell Casting Fury effects life tap heals and not Healing Gift.

Incorrect...

Spell Casting Fury AND Healing Gift work on all lifetap augs.  Mine are 75 pt augs and crit proc SCF AND HG for 300 points of damage/healing often enough in a session.  :)

Yep crit heals and nukes work on lifetap augs, heals only affect the healing portion from what i've seen.  I have the DoN 125 lifetap.  I've seen it crit as follows
Crit nuke -->  250 DD, 250 heal
Crit heal -->  125 DD, 250 heal
Crit nuke/heal --> 250 DD, 500 heal

Though when i start working on heals, i'll max my archetype before getting the higher level ones as the 2%, 5% 10% is a much better return on aa than some of the later ones.

[Tastian]

Numbers get even better with healing adept as well.  8P  640 off a crit dmg/heal 125 lifetap.

[Nekokirei]

  Warders alacrity gives a better return than warders fury,

slight hijack, sorry.

whoa! i've decided to start working on making warder a bit better, and did several searches--so as to not start a thread asking something that's been answered-- when i was reading your parses and comments, it seemed you were saying the opposite, so i was intending to focus more on warder's fury than alacrity.

over the weekend, got the 1st rank of each--while it's purely anecdotal, it felt like my warder was doing more damage than before i got fury, but i couldn't tell a huge difference with alacrity (other than the flurry message).  so, i did some searches, and saw your parse for the focused sorsha--i dont' have focus yet damnit--with fury and alacrity.  also found you post showing the 0-2 extra attacks with alacrity, and that sold me on upping fury first.

help? =)

[Tastian]

Flurry got repriced that changed the return on it.  Flurry is harder to "see" because techincally a flurry can mean no extra attacks or your pet flurry's on a dead mob lol.  Crits meanwhile you see everytime, but crits don't actually add that much.  The crit mod for a sorsha pet is ~65% more damage(pets don't factor the way we do), meanwhile flurry is good for ~1-1.5% more damage a rank.  Before when alacrity cost a progressive amount then flurry 1 and 2 was better than fury, but fury was always cheaper, with it repriced you see a bigger return in terms of dmg to AA cost from flurry at every rank except for maybe the last 2 depths ranks(new calc would let you test that).  Overall the gap early on isn't much and crit is cheaper, but if you like eye candy wait until you see a maxed flurry AA'd out pet.  The thing flurrys almost constantly.  8P 

As always though efficency isn't everything and some will prefer one to the other.  If the new calc has been posted you can check the number there and if not feel free to PM me and I'll post the new numbers for ya.  8)

[Nekokirei]

Flurry got repriced that changed the return on it. 

AH! that splains it then--not sure where i was when that happened, but likely not high enough to purchase either and so didn't pay attention in class (damnit, shoulda known there'd be a test!)

just so i'm clear, alacrity 3rd rank would be a reasonable investment for the return on warder DPS over Warder's Fury 5th rank?

and yes, i do love the eyecandy of "nekokirei's warder executes a FLURRY of attacks" like seeing that "nekokirei's warder scores a critical hit (142)" too. =)

and aye, he flurried a corpse--was the second mob we killed after i bought alacrity.  but hey, they're brawn, not brains. ;-)

[Tastian]

I don't recall the exact numbers, so pleas forgive the variables....

Old warder's fury was X, X, X, X, X per rank (static)

Old warder's alacrity was 1N, 2N, 3N, 4N, 5N (increasing)

Warder's alacrity always returned more dps than fury, but the increasing costs of the AA made it so that rank 3 was a break off point where warder's fury(at 3 per I believe) became a better return than extra ranks of alacrity(priced at 9, 12, 15 as I recall). 

Now that warder's alcrity is N, N, N, N, N (think 5) it's a better return per rank, and per AA(return/AA) such that every single rank of alacrity has a better efficency return than any rank of fury.

The except to this might come with the last 2 ranks of depths alacrity which do carry an increasing price of 3, 6, 9.  The 3 point is still better than fury, and I suspect the 6 is as well, but the 9 might not be as that was the old break point before.  Also it starts costing more AA's and some would rather get 3 ranks of fury than get one final rank of flurry(just wait till you see the spam though, 10+ rounds of flurry'n np).

Also keep in mind that these AA's do interact such that getting more flurry raises the value of crits, getting more crits raises the return on flurry.  To be absolutly sure of efficency one would have to parse, buy the best choice, parse, buy the best choice, etc.  The gap was sufficently large last I checked though so that in most situations maxing out original alacrity was the best choice.  As I said though the new AA calc should be up or up soon(I sent it along already hehe) and if you want to PM me I can check the numbers later this week when I get home if the new calc isn't up yet. 

Hope that cleared it up a bit.  8)

[Nekokirei]

clears it up quite a bit.  the return on AA, for my particular style is to advance Alcrity to 3rd rank, and catch up Fury, and worry about the last 2 ranks later on when I've got a hole burning in my AA bank.

thanks tast! and sorry for the derail.

[Tastian]

No, the *OLD* alacrity was such that rank 3 was the cut off.  Back when it had a scailng cost.  Now that the cost of alacrity is fixed like fury is and the return per rank is still better than *EVERY* rank of alacrity is better than fury.  Ranks 1-5 atleast.  Likely ranks 6 & 7 from depths(calc will verify) and then rank 8(final rank of warder's savagery the upgrade to alacrity) might be worse than fury.

For instance if I didn't have any pet AA's the most efficent path with my pet data woudl be:

-  Alacrity 1
-  Alacrity 2
-  Alacrity 3
-  Alacrity 4
-  Alacrity 5
-  Alacrity 6
-  Alacrity 7
-  Fury 1-5
-  Alacrity 8

This can vary as I said and when the new calc is up yo ucan verify it or if you PM me I'll run the calc for ya when I get home to let ya know.  The re-tune in price raised the value of alacrity quite a bit though.  For those with low proc dps it's actually on par with weapon affinity and we all know how much people like weapon affinity.  8)

[Nekokirei]

/doht

now i get it, since it no longer scales but is fixed, the return on Alacrity is worth taking to the 5th rank and *then* working on Fury.  ok, so i'm having an extrememly blonde day...

[Tastian]

So'k I'm having a lifetime of them.  8P  (or atleast since ~age 6).

Once the new AA calc is posted it'll be easier to see.  Even using the old calc if you plug in say 40 melee dps for pet you get:

*****WARDER'S FURY*****
Warder's Fury 1 = 0.0866
Warder's Fury 2 = 0.0866
Warder's Fury 3 = 0.0866
Warder's Fury 4 = 0.0866
Warder's Fury 5 = 0.0866
*****WARDER'S FURY*****

and

*****WARDER'S ALACRITY*****
Warder's Alacrity 1 =0.1199
Warder's Alacrity 2 =0.12
Warder's Alacrity 3 =0.1199
Warder's Alacrity 4 =0.12
Warder's Alacrity 5 =0.1199
*****WARDER'S ALACRITY*****

Again, the numbers above represent damage gained verse points spent, so the higher the number the better.  I don't have a copy of the new calc on me atm, but WA6 should be a better return than 1-5 because it's only 3 AA, rank 7 should be a bit worse at a cost of 6 AA, and rank 8 costing 9 AA might be the back breaker. 

Also just to put that in perspective someone using a MH weapon with say 50dmg proc on it and a 50dmg proc aug and an OH weapon with say 100dmg proc would have ~300 dmg a minute in procs, or about 5 damage a second in procs.  That'd put WA at...

*****WEAPON AFFINITY*****
Weapon Affinity 1 = 0.1
Weapon Affinity 2 = 0.1
Weapon Affinity 3 = 0.1
Weapon Affinity 4 = 0.1
Weapon Affinity 5 = 0.1
*****WEAPON AFFINITY*****

After ~300 proc damage a minute weapon affinity starts to break even and then pull ahead of warder's alacrity with respect to a 40 melee dps pet.  Of course, you have lifetap procs and other benefits to consider as well.

Just because I haven't played around with the calc in awhile let's say the player is also doing 40 melee dps...

That'd put BF at:

*****BESTIAL FRENZY*****
Bestial Frenzy 1 = 0.6
Bestial Frenzy 2 = 0.6
Bestial Frenzy 3 = 0.6
Bestial Frenzy 4 = 0.6
Bestial Frenzy 5 = 0.6
*****BESTIAL FRENZY*****

*HUGE* gain for us.  8P

Also would put the first few ranks of comat fury at:

*****COMBAT FURY*****
Combat Fury 1 = 0.32
Combat Fury 2 = 0.0399
Combat Fury 3 = 0.0266
*****COMBAT FURY*****

Notice the big drop off after rank 1?  hehe

Just to fill it out the other noteable AA's in this 40 melee, 40 pet, 5 proc dps scenario would be:

Ambi = 0.1999
Sinister = 0.29
Feral Swipe = 0.17

Ambi of course assumes compareable duel wield, sinister requires ambi, and feral swipe has heaps of issues all it's own, but in theory it's not that bad.  8P  Unfortunatly, in application it leaves a bit to be desired lol.  How one spends mana on nukes/dots/etc will dictate how SCF/Crit affliction fair.  *shrugs*

Okies, shushing up for a bit now, lemme know if ya need anything else.

[Nekokirei]

tast,

thank you SO much for the help.  got a guildie group together last night and chained back to back MMs--wizzie ports are good!--decided to buy two ranks fo BF, and 2nd rank of Warder Alacrity after chugging through the AA.  logged for a few minute sthis morning and coudl  tell a difference mowing down gobbies in Nurga.

i can see what you mean about flurries with higher ranks of alacrity--by the 5th rank, it'll blinkin' look like it's snowing with all the flurries.

[Nusa]

Just bought Warder's Alacrity 2-6 and Warder's Fury 2-5 in the last 24 hours. Now I need to do something challenging to see what the impact was.

[Kanan]

seeing my spam window fill with red flurry text from both 68 pet & warder makes me all warm & gooey inside... and the mobs that way on the outside ;p