Improved Bestial Frenzy...?

[Thurman]

Ok so I have IBF 4 now and honestly... I'm not that impressed.  I am not really noticing much more of double attacks whatsoever.  Anyone else unhappy with this aa?  Am I expecting too much?

[Dreead]

you're expecting too much.

helped my dps a lot

[Kanan]

IBF is one of the 2 best AAs we have for dps.  Beastial Frenzy is the best.  If you are expecting to be able to visually see your double attacks, you are not being realistic.  Check out your parses and the damage increase that you have seen from when you started training it (ie, when u didn't have it) to now.

When I popped all the points into it at the release of this expansion, I was stealing agro from tanks by turning on attack.  No nukes, no slows.. just turning on attack.

Yeah, this AA is awesome.  Its the single biggest dps boost we have received since PoP.

[Kenudil]

I've noticed a large increase with IBF and it's much more noticable when you add WA5 to it as well.  I have 4 procs on my weapons and you can really see a difference with and without those two AA's.

[Gunzak]

I was in the same boat.  At first I didn't see much of an increase but now that I have had it awhile it has been a big boost in DPS especially now that I have WA5.  I can now proc up to 10 times on a mob in a 60-90 second fight which is crazy for dps as well as agro, unfortunately.  It was definetely worth the AA though I think 25aa is a bit high for it.

[Tastian]

Really I wonder what some people are expecting to "see" with some of these AAs.  There are somethings that you can easily notice without parsing(max hit, crits, etc), but most things take parsing to see and a lot of parsing to verify.  I guess in a way it helps further show just how important it is to parse.  IBF basically doubles your previous double attack, taking it from 15% to 30%, so if that isn't noticeable imagine how many of the other smaller bonuses are?

Also I have to mention that although IBF5 and WA5 are both great AAs for us, they don't  "stack", so to speak.  One of the main beastlord weapon issues for awhile was we got full proc dps from a weapon, but not as much on the ratio side because we didn't double/triple attack like most other classes.  Weapons proc regardless of swings except for some very, very specific situations.  If 15% double attack or even 30% were more procs then where would we fall compared to classes with 60%+ double attack and why would so many bst like their EDs and SPFs?

[rdahl]

Also I have to mention that although IBF5 and WA5 are both great AAs for us, they don't  "stack", so to speak.

How do they not stack?  I can guess, proc rates are fixed or have a ceiling on a per tick (or multiple thereof) basis and therefore more swings won't increas procs, although this doesn't make sense to me.

Weapons proc regardless of swings except for some very, very specific situations.

Ok, this really doesn't make sense to me, so I am assuming I am reading it wrong.  A weapon will proc even if you don't swing?  When playing my Cleric it is easy to see some of the mechanics of procs on weapons because of the insane proc rate the summoned hammers have.  I have noticed procs happen quite frequently even though my Cleric doesn't get a regular melee hit but I assume he swings and misses rather than just procs without any swing.

[Chickennuggets]

The weapon will proc if you are swinging or not... but you do have to be attacking... not sure if that was the question or not.  I got IBF 5, WA5, and have a total of 6 procs on my weapons.... I don't know what somebody meant when they said they don't "stack"... but I never needed a seperate window for weapon procs before.  Add in Ambi, and SCF AAs, and my dps has gone through the roof.  I can't sit there and stare at my damage window, and count how many more hits I am making... but I know.  Also go into the DPS calc, and play around on it... put in your weapons, and mess with the AAs.  From my exp it is pretty spot on accurate.... I think you will be surprised how much difference they make.

[Tastian]

By "stack" I meant with each other directly, hrmmmm stack is a poor word.  They don't impact each other is a better way to put it.  Both add to dps, but both add their dps regardless of the other.  Having BF5 and getting WA5 will raise your proc dps, but not your melee dps.  On the same note having WA5 and getting BF5 will raise your melee dps, but not your proc dps.

It's been parsed a ton of times and proc rate is basically fixed based upon dex and # of swings don't play a part in it.  There are some extreme cases where # of procs and low number of swings with a 2h can leave you without enough rounds to proc to full potential, but they are extremely rare and I'm not even sure I've ever seen the situation parsed out to see just how big an impact it had on proc dps anyway.

"I can guess, proc rates are fixed or have a ceiling on a per tick (or multiple thereof) basis and therefore more swings won't increas procs, although this doesn't make sense to me."

Yes that is it.  A beastlord without BF5 or IBF5 gets the same proc dps out of an ED that one with it does.  The whole "cap" on procs per minute is what made "boom" weapons and big proc weapons so important for beastlords over the years.  Weapons like SHFD, ED, SPF, etc all perform better for us overall than some "ratio" weapons because we get the same amount of proc dps another class gets, but less of the ratio damage.

"A weapon will proc even if you don't swing?"

Actually it can hehe.  If you want to dig through your log and you DW you should find some cases where your OH proc'd even through it didn't make it's DW check.  You do have to be "melee'n" to proc weapons and I put up some parses awhile back that showed you can't "force procs" by standing out of range with attack on and then step into range, etc. 

Procs usually get confusing for people because of the way they are measured.  Most talk about the 2 procs per minute base and 3 procs per minute MH with WA5.  Off hand is half the proc rate of MH.  Then you've got weapons with built in mods, combat effects, etc that skews the rate as well.  This doesn't mean you are "capped" or "guaranteed" 2 procs from one weapon every minute, but that overtime it will average out to ~2procs per minute.  It could eaisly be stated in terms of procs per hour or whatever too. 

The biggest problem with seeing procs though is the sample size.  When I'm parsing melee I'll aim for 10k+ hits.  If you are parsing procs you are talking about 2 or 3 procs per minute on average MH, and 1-1.5(ish) with the OH.   It takes a very long time to get a good sample size and most people see random events while they are playing and let that cloud their judgement.

As a simple example of that, I once had my OH aug proc crit 3 times in a row.  The odds of that happening are insanely rare hehe, but when you have as many people playing EQ as long as many do, then you are bound to see some crazy things.

Anyway I'm still asleep and this might not be clear.  The main point is that WA5 and BF5 are both great AAs for us, but BF isn't going to help your procs for an assortment of reasons concerning how procs function.  Extra double attack or even triple attack isn't going to make you proc more often, ferocity V focus effect won't make you proc more, etc.

[Gunzak]

I have seen 3 proc crits in a row but never 3 oh in a row.  I have seen 3 spell crits in a row as it happened Monday.  I used to mem 2 DDs and Celerity but now that I carry haste pots I mem 3 DDs.  I cast all 3 on a mob in RSS and all 3 crit in a row.  First time I have seen that.  Have seen many double crits but never 3 off of DDs.