Gates of Discord AAs (Jan 29, 2004)

[feralize]

make it so illusions don't wreck shrink

Careful what you wish for. They'll probably make that an AA ability  :roll:

[Rugom Razorclaw]

id rather get rid of the illusion.... recasting fire elemental is a pain in the ass :\

[DiosT]

There are more Bsts in beta that belong to these boards than DiosT thinks. By his original statement that people are whining about aa's they've never used, he is wrong

Actually..

If anyone here is complaining about an AA they DO have, then they are in violation of the NDA agreement..

Thus any comments here should be assumed to be by members who are NOT in beta, unless lots of people like risking their accounts... You must understand that SOE is a business first, and a 'game-loving group of friends' second... They do NOT like people voicing how things stink before the game is on the market, it gives them no chance to change the abilities before they go live, and thus costs them money...


I understand a lot of people on this board are in beta, but thankfully a lot of the people I recognize as being in the beta are either, 1) Posting in ways that uses public data(and I'm talking public data excluding NDA violations that are 'publicly accessable'), not personal thoughts/experience, 2) Not posting about GoD, or 3) Not posting at all.


Understand that I like to give community members here the benefit of the doubt when I see an opinionated statement of an AA from GoD, and assume it's an opinion on what the expect based on public data... If people posted their personal opinions from Beta directly and openly, well it would cause a fuss that thankfully I havn't yet needed to deal with..


Again understand, I have a very good feel as to how many people/beastlords are in beta, but due to NDA restraints..
1-I am very broad/open-ended/unspecific when I talk about it
and
2-I Hope that the people posting opinions of AA's are in fact complaining about AA's they've never used--which is why I said what i did.... If they are in beta and complaining about AA's they've used, they have broken the NDA (with some exceptions), and I try to look away at minor comments because I know they slip out.

[DiosT]

We go thru this each Beta.  The admins try to keep the NDA, people leak stuff and just reading the threads is frustrating.  Yet Sony keeps doing them so they must figure the advantages outweigh the dissadvantages.

They do it for a few reasons...
1-It's an industry standard pritty much--with good reasons for it to be so
2-It gives them grounds, if needed, to persue legal damages from leaks
3-It keeps MOST people from speaking publicly about the beta

People fight and argue over what is a violation...

The NDA is fairly common-sense and explains what is a violation... you can 'get around' it by quoting public data (excluding NDA-violations made public), and still be safe.

And yes, im "bitching" about AAs I dont have and have never used. But I do hope they get changed and it will make me much more likely to spend the HUGE time investment needed if they are changed. So why not let Sony know in the only way a non-beta tester can - here.

Please dont get me wrong, I -love- to see comments here, I'm sure other beta members/lurkers do as well, it lets people see other angles and possibilities of the expansion... but as the beta goes on, people start going to more 'my opinion of skill xxxxxxxx' is 'this' and less 'according to lucy...'...

if you notice, a week ago we were always talking about lucy data, now we are slowly moving to normaltive(personal experience/opinion) like statements about things--which is 'better' obviously, than just raw data, but is still covered by a legal contract that I at least, had to print, sign, and fax to them, binding me to the contract. See my previous post about why i 'assume' these normative statements are not personal opinions of beta members.

I simply don't want NDA violations/borderline comments to be commonplace here, because SOE's Legal group IS very likely looking into almost all major violations--what company wouldn't?

I'd rather have them feel this board is 'safe' then have them comb through looking for violations

[Drazgul]

Diost, you must be kidding if you think that Sony would be upset that people would post info about AA's which are being beta tested.

1. Sony doesn't need our help in testing small features like AA's. They could of easily left them out until right before GoD goes live. They added them JUST so that people would evaluate them and post on boards to get the general masses thoughts on them. Sending NDA violations to Sony probably hits the Circular File faster then whines about Kill Stealing.

2. Sony wants all the buzz they can get right about now. WoW is breathing hard down there necks and I would bet alot this is the first time Sony is nervous about losing there dominance of the MMORG market.

Piece of advice DiosT you need to put Everquest in perspective and relax a little. :shock:

Regards,
Drazgul

[Urim]

1. Sony doesn't need our help in testing small features like AA's. They could of easily left them out until right before GoD goes live. They added them JUST so that people would evaluate them and post on boards to get the general masses thoughts on them. Sending NDA violations to Sony probably hits the Circular File faster then whines about Kill Stealing.

You might want to think a little bit more, if the whole purpose of the Beta was for people to post about the abilities on message boards, then why an NDA at all, why didnt they just come out and post exactly what their thoughts on the abilities are on a board somewhere and ask for feedback? Plus if they kept them out until right before Live then they wouldnt have enough time to tweak with them to get them right.

Purpose of the beta is to hopefully have enough of each class in to get an all around consensus on the overall thoughts of the ability. The last thing they want is all the bitching and whining being caused by things getting posted on message boards while still in development, all that leads to is an increase in their email im sure. Which is all futile considering that most beastlords in the Beta will be /feedbacking the exact same concerns that most have but without all the drama and whining occuring on this and many other message boards.

Plus NDA's are a contractual obligation and can be acted upon by the company if they so see fit, so the fact that DiosT takes the NDA seriously shows that he does have things in perspective.

[janl]

Well, I think alot of you people are missing the purpose for the beta.  I agree that for the most part (not saying entirely) that SOE doesn't actually need us to "test" the new AA skills and spells.  Anybody care to notice the bit about moving EQ to being based on DX 9?  What about the patch message advising everybody to make sure their video drivers are up-to-date?  The biggest reason for a beta, is to have a large player base to test your code.  They want to get as many varying computer setups on which to test their new code, something they can't exactly do with in-house testing.  They want to know if the new code will cause problems with Nvidia based cards, or ATI based cards, or is using an AMD CPU with an ATI card, on a Nvidia based motherboard (ok, I'm just putting it all together, hehe) will cause you to CTD when you zone into West Freeport after you've been playing for 35 minutes, and have shrunk yourself 5 times, and then then cast Inner Flame on yourself, and run around in a circle singing Mary Had a Little Lamb.  The purpose of the beta IS NOT to give people a chance to whine and bitch about things they have no idea about and only see a slim snapshot that some Joe Blow happened to post on some message board, probably Anon.

There was something else I was about to say, but I lost it.  Anyway, I think I've covered most of my points.  Clear as mud everybody?

[Braedan_VZ]

We have mgb so we're entitled to lower recast aa's. imho

[Satal]

I agree that for the most part (not saying entirely) that SOE doesn't actually need us to "test" the new AA skills and spells.

Alot of the AA's from various classes needed testing...badly. Some were ok from the start..but alot weren't. Beta encompasses everything that goes into a new expansion as well as how it affects the world that exists already from integration...from quests to zones properly working.  Take for instance raid enounters....they are never setup at the beginning of beta the same as when they go live. Even after they go live they sometimes need testing and more improvements.  Beta is a very crucial element to new expansions I believe. While an open beta can be a double edged sword for Sony, it also is extremly valuable. You have a larger number of people going over things that don't work from within the company. This can lead to players who think outside of the box to come up with stuff that helps tune or fix some things that need to be.  There are a few high end guilds who are almost always in beta helping test new features in raids...another reason they also advance so quickly since they already know where to go, what to do, and what to expect. Those same players for the most part are talented palyers to begin with (not always though) and really give the devs insights on encounters, etc., that might not normally be thought of.

Just my take from someone whos done beta and been around since the beginning of EQ.

[DiosT]

Diost, you must be kidding if you think that Sony would be upset that people would post info about AA's which are being beta tested.

I posted above, in another reply, exactly why they dont like talk about AA's...

2 weeks ago AA's were 'unfinished' according to lucy, example being that Bestial Alignment I-III were all ferocity clones... Do they WANT people to be talking about these broken AA's? Heck no!

Do they WANT people talking about Bugs, glitches, unfinished work/spells/aa, uncoded/untested zones, BEFORE the product is finished? No..


I treat EQ as SoE does, as a 'product' of a 'business'... As i said previously, The development team are EMPLOYEES first and formost, and 'gamers' second.

1. Sony doesn't need our help in testing small features like AA's. They could of easily left them out until right before GoD goes live. They added them JUST so that people would evaluate them and post on boards to get the general masses thoughts on them. Sending NDA violations to Sony probably hits the Circular File faster then whines about Kill Stealing.

There are too many AA's for 1-3 people to 'quickly' test & balance in most all situations.. we should know by now they dont look much at the 'code' to determine if an AA is balanced, but actually the raw parses people pull out to show if things work or not...

2. Sony wants all the buzz they can get right about now. WoW is breathing hard down there necks and I would bet alot this is the first time Sony is nervous about losing there dominance of the MMORG market.

They want buzz, but not bad publicity... Posting AA's generates typically bad publicity as MORE people are like "Great, ANOTHER useless AA" (In their opinion as a _____(Insert play style here)_____).. more then "Wow, that'll be a fun aa!" because people enjoy to complain and hope it gets changed their way, rather then support something they like as is (unless its to stop a 'change' others want)

Piece of advice DiosT you need to put Everquest in perspective and relax a little. :shock:

I love EverQuest, and want the best for it eventhough I rarely play now... I've worked with the team long enough to feel I owe them thanks... and I know they do -not- like NDA violations, almost all of them are violations in hopes of getting a change for something in beta, because people THINK that /bugs and /reports are completely unread... especially on the beta server.. for some reason...

The developers prefer bugs, reports, hell even /tells over people violating the NDA and putting unfinished work on the market as if it's SUPPOSED to be a release-quality game...

Seems most people can't understand what a 'beta test' is (no offense to anyone in particular here)... in past beta tests it was funny to see people getting 'free' or 'better' gear that is avalible on live servers(NToV, VT, Time)... then going to -old- content to see how fun EQ is with a 'top-end' character as it would be on 'live' at the time.. or ask why new AA's arn't working the first day of beta... They don't understand why something isnt working, and instead of doing bug reports, feedback, e-mail, tells to Developers, or petitioning, they feel they MUST post one-sided satire in search of public support by people who are not testers (and if they are, should Not be posting personal opinions about it under the NDA) in hopes of changes...

Sony provides -many- chances for the testers to provide developers feedback directly in-game, or by in-game means... The developers also freely hand out their e-mail addresses when something needs lots of detail to explain, or cant be handled at the moment...

Beta's are ALWAYS horrendous to look at if you are expecting a fully-functional production-quality game, yet that is what people EXPECT the second they are in the game.....

Plus NDA's are a contractual obligation and can be acted upon by the company if they so see fit, so the fact that DiosT takes the NDA seriously shows that he does have things in perspective.

Thanks Urim...

And yes, I take legal contracts seriously, I probably have a different perspective on the contract since I sometimes hear about people who were suspended/banned from EQ over it.. and I KNOW they actively seek out to catch many of the serious violations (including direct quotes from developers, screen shots, etc.) in attempts to find the source and 'terminate' it...

EverQuest is not a game to SOE, it's a product... Most testers are -not- reporters, and post their opinions/conclusions of the product -without- the full amount of information they could get... testers almost NEVER inquire about the Developers plans of a problem before they go public with it... while many reporters would (or would otherwise be briefed about key points/flaws of the beta product that are to be fixed before release)...


Look at Tom's hardware guide, or Tech TV, or other places that cover latest & greatest products.. IF they mention a flaw in something that they tested 'before the actual release' they make follow-up statements with the companies reply to it..

such as (similar to something I read once) "The box didn't come with the cables included, but the company says the shelved boxes will all come with all them included"

I don't see people saying:
"_____________ currently doesnt work, but developers are going to look at it latter, and will have a decent solution for it before it's released if at all possible, or shortly afterwards"


it's more like:
"___________ doesnt work, it will stay like this (Note this is a personal opinion stated factually without ever asking developers) and we need to petition for changes now! They should make it a ________-like spell/ability/disc/etc. instead, in it's current form it is useless/pointless"


That's exactly why sony does NOT want NDA violations... and why Sony asks if people host fansites, or are members of the media, at the time of signing up--So SOE can 'discuss' known problems before the final report on the product is published

[Vorph]

They want buzz, but not bad publicity... Posting AA's generates typically bad publicity as MORE people are like "Great, ANOTHER useless AA" (In their opinion as a _____(Insert play style here)_____).. more then "Wow, that'll be a fun aa!" because people enjoy to complain and hope it gets changed their way, rather then support something they like as is (unless its to stop a 'change' others want)

You think that's gonna change whether people bitch now or bitch after the AA goes live?  I.e. Bestial Alignment is useless now, and it's going to be useless on 2/10 whether or not we talk about it.  As I recall people said similar things about Hobble in the PoP beta ("Don't worry, they'll fix it!"), and hey look at that... it still is just about useless today!

I don't see people saying:
"_____________ currently doesnt work, but developers are going to look at it latter, and will have a decent solution for it before it's released if at all possible, or shortly afterwards"


it's more like:
"___________ doesnt work, it will stay like this (Note this is a personal opinion stated factually without ever asking developers) and we need to petition for changes now! They should make it a ________-like spell/ability/disc/etc. instead, in it's current form it is useless/pointless"

Well, I've been playing EQ since day 1 of release, and basically since Luclin (and the Sigil mass-exodus) I personally don't think SOE devs deserve a whole lot of faith from their customers.  They lost the benefit of the doubt long ago, and when I see something that sucks being lined up in beta, past experience tells me it will probably go live sucking just as much.

It's SOE's own fault people are so cynical about their new expansions.

[Hrann]

Well Vorph, what you are saying is exactly the reason SOE requires you sign an NDA, and just enforces DiosT's point.  

They don't want people like you shouting to the world that their expansion sucks before it's even been released, as that would cut down on sales.  So they make you sign an NDA which prohibits you from talking about what you've learned in beta.  Why you would be willing to break that contract and leave yourself open to a lawuit, however slim the chance, in order to tell a bunch of strangers about something that they will see shortly anyway is beyond me, but thanks for the info! ;)

Oh, I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression about me - I think EQ is one of the best games ever.  I've never played any other video game as much or for as long.  So, while there are mistakes from time to time and stupid decisions even, overall some people are doing something right over there at SOE.

[Vorph]

I've made it clear that I'm not in the beta every time I've posted something potentially NDA-breaking.

I didn't feel the beta was a good use of my time, as I don't believe that SOE takes player feedback at all seriously.  They just want stress testers, not people to give actual feedback on the design.

[Bengali]

I didn't feel the beta was a good use of my time, as I don't believe that SOE takes player feedback at all seriously.  They just want stress testers, not people to give actual feedback on the design.

That's not accurate.  Many of the changes that have occured in past betas (and this one as well) are the direct result of tester feedback.

Unfortunately the NDA prevents people from being able to give specifics on what has changed, and when/how it changed (even after beta's over, you're not supposed to to reveal the inner workings of it) and it's also possible for something to change based on your feedback and you don't directly know about it.  So it's difficult to disprove statements like this one.

[Vecsus]

"The inner workings of Beta shall be more secret than the location of the Holy Grail and Noah's Ark"

That is what my NDA said...   :P