Is it OUR fault?

[Ragash]

I'm not suggesting total instancing. The kind of instancing used in LDoN serves to isolate characters from the server population at large.

However a system that uses partial instancing, sorting players by level ranges, allows for zones that aren't completely devoid of players while still making it possible for players of all levels to experience the same new content.

That way, no matter what level you are, you get content tuned for you and your group and know that anyone else in the zone is at least capable of grouping with you. Finding out if they're competent or not is another proposition entirely though ;) .

I imagine, at least on the server side of things, its no more or less intensive to create 7 zones accessible by every player in the game than it is to create 21 zones that are hard-coded for certain level ranges. The code necessary to determine content level is already available in game because its used for LDoN already.

[Coprolith]

Though, really, when thinking about this I sort of shudder. Dont we simply have 'enough' zones for level 1-50? I mean really. There are a TON of zones for these folks to play in.

Yes there are, and they're great for new players who have yet to discover them (even tho what you see is that most new players skip a lot of that content because the loot drops are hopelessly outdated, or they concentrate in high ZEM zones like PC, but that's their loss). But I've seen em all. I know every nook and corner of Befallen, Najena, SolA, Dalnir, you name it. There's nothing more in those zones for me. Its one of the reasons so many toons get powerleveled these days, to skip the old content and move straight to the new. I can start a new toon with a class i haven't played and get some satisfaction from learning that class, but I'd still know exactly what to expect in the zones themselves. There's no exploration anymore.

Hardcore raiding guilds don't take their new apps back to ToV, Sleeper, Ssra, VP either. New apps get geared up in one or two PoTime raids, and then they move on to GoD. When GoD is 'beaten', they'll want new content. You could say that I have 'beaten' all those old zones. If i want to do something new, i have to either gear/AA up to unlock existing content (too slow) or have new content added to the game.

However a system that uses partial instancing, sorting players by level ranges, allows for zones that aren't completely devoid of players while still making it possible for players of all levels to experience the same new content.

I think i like that idea. Instanced exp zones, sorted by level range. Only prob i can foresee is that when interest in one such particular zone trails off, there won't be enough players in them to distinguish them from current LDoN dungeons. But it'd be a good idea to try out one or two new zones this way. If it catches on, it'd be a very cost effective way for SOE to provide content for everyone without having to create a huge number of zones.

/hugs

[a_moss_snake_001]

You know, they could get a lot more life out of their existing zones if they just used the ZEM more effectively.

People these days (even casual players) are used to getting xp at the rate you get from tier 1-3 planes in a good group. Sooo.... just go back through your old zones and apply higher ZEM's across the board (not just these LoY hot spots).

I personally find soloing down near the Fungi/Juggs/Reets in OS way way more challenging than sitting in a group in BoT for hours.. so... why shouldn't I get at least the same kind of xp per kill? Where is my risk vs reward? Sure i may get lucky and find a fungi or a reet crown or net a few gems but thats no different than netting a piece of ornate or other gear from a named in BoT and looting the various diamonds FFA.

They need to take a look at some of their older world zones and truly consider pumping up the xp rate. Exp is what draws people to zones, way more than a slight chance at equipment.

I would apply a ZEM to the following zones at the very least (and these are just the higher end zones you have to also consider the L50-60 player):-

- Cazic Thule (TOUGH to solo in, ok when you duo, groups can manage just fine, horrible risk vs reward unless you perma camp the boots and bazaar them, at least double the exp rate here)

- Old Sebilis (ok gem and spell drops -- they nerfed bugs which sucked, occasional semi-decent item drops, xp rate is f**** horrible)

- Howling Stones (that key quest is a bitch, the item drops suck and the exp rate is ok but nothing to write home about)

- Veksar (currently a necro faaaaaarming zone, decent drops but the exp rate STILL isnt good enough on anything but nobles/highborns)

- Droga (sorry but these mobs have TOO MUCH hp, you simply cant kill them fast enough to get a good xp rate unless you have a group and its mainly dps classes, either up to exp rate a tad or lower the overall mob HP)

- Griegs End (mindless xp in the range of 1-2% per kill, up the exp rate and i'd be happy here, luclin mobs so melee dont kill them as fast, wouldnt require a huge increase)

- Sirens Grotto (these mobs hurt a lot for their level range, even at 65 soloing here is risky, the risk vs reward is not very good unless you get lucky with gem drops or named spawns)

So look at your bloody ZEM's, constantly tweak them, monitor zone populations and adjust your game accordingly. Hell, hire someone to do this. Cheaper, more effective and less risky than bringing out new bugged content to fix old problems.

[a_moss_snake_001]

You know, they could get a lot more life out of their existing zones if they just used the ZEM more effectively.

People these days (even casual players) are used to getting xp at the rate you get from tier 1-3 planes in a good group. Sooo.... just go back through your old zones and apply higher ZEM's across the board (not just these LoY hot spots).

I personally find soloing down near the Fungi/Juggs/Reets in OS way way more challenging than sitting in a group in BoT for hours.. so... why shouldn't I get at least the same kind of xp per kill? Where is my risk vs reward? Sure i may get lucky and find a fungi or a reet crown or net a few gems but thats no different than netting a piece of ornate or other gear from a named in BoT and looting the various diamonds FFA.

They need to take a look at some of their older world zones and truly consider pumping up the xp rate. Exp is what draws people to zones, way more than a slight chance at equipment.

I would apply a ZEM to the following zones at the very least (and these are just the higher end zones you have to also consider the L50-60 player):-

- Cazic Thule (TOUGH to solo in, ok when you duo, groups can manage just fine, horrible risk vs reward unless you perma camp the boots and bazaar them, at least double the exp rate here)

- Old Sebilis (ok gem and spell drops -- they nerfed bugs which sucked, occasional semi-decent item drops, xp rate is f**** horrible)

- Howling Stones (that key quest is a bitch, the item drops suck and the exp rate is ok but nothing to write home about)

- Veksar (currently a necro faaaaaarming zone, decent drops but the exp rate STILL isnt good enough on anything but nobles/highborns - which you need a good group to rake in the exp)

- Droga (sorry but these mobs have TOO MUCH hp, you simply cant kill them fast enough to get a good xp rate unless you have a group and its mainly dps classes, either up to exp rate a tad or lower the overall mob HP)

- Griegs End (mindless xp in the range of 1-2% per kill, up the exp rate and i'd be happy here, luclin mobs so melee dont kill them as fast, wouldnt require a huge increase)

- Sirens Grotto (these mobs hurt a lot for their level range, even at 65 soloing here is risky, the risk vs reward is not very good unless you get lucky with gem drops or named spawns)

So look at your bloody ZEM's, constantly tweak them, monitor zone populations and adjust your game accordingly. Hell, hire someone to do this. Cheaper, more effective and less risky than bringing out new bugged content to fix old problems.

[Coprolith]

You know, they could get a lot more life out of their existing zones if they just used the ZEM more effectively.

Not really. Changing the ZEM of a zone doesnt change the zone itself. All it does is making xp go a bit faster, but it'd still be the same mindboggingly boring AA grind as always. I dont hunt in a zone for its ZEM (unless im PLing a new char thru lvls 1-42), i go there because its fun/unexplored. The increase in the rate at which i get power upgrades thru AAs would mean i'd be able to take on new challenges a bit faster, but they'd have to really up the ZEMs big time for that to be appreciable.

/hugs

[The Kittenpeeler]

Basically have GoD/OoW being the 60-65 content of this new expansion while also have zones/content for levels 1-65.

Though, really, when thinking about this I sort of shudder. Dont we simply have 'enough' zones for level 1-50? I mean really. There are a TON of zones for these folks to play in.

Yep. Because while level 65 should be a ticket to a spoon-feeding of new drops, quests, models, zones, and challenges, I SO want to sit in OT with my alt killing Sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak...

Funny how people can bitch about the "race to level 65" on one hand, and then declare that lower levels shouldn't have any new content...  :roll:

[Urim]

I SO want to sit in OT with my alt killing Sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak...

So go somewhere else ... you know there are more zones then the treadmill exp route? OMG!

[Tighe]

I think the point of his post was that to get to the hallowed level of 65, one must kill repeatedly.  And since there are more numbers between 1-65 than there are 65-70, personally, I think that the game is becoming too top heavy.

There should be just as much, if not MORE choices available to the people who are of lower level, how else are they going to get to those higher levels if they're always doing the same friggin thing over and over?

Yah, we all did it, I know.  I didn't like it though, and I doubt that most of you did.  Camping the same 4 or 5 pulls, over and over again till your mind goes numb.  Don't you think that Everquest should be about adventure and exploration?  Isn't that the whole premise?  Players created this system now.  Someone along the way of the development of how people in this game behave decided that they and they alone were going to kill these same 3 mobs over and over again, and thus camping was born.

There should, and has to be a better way than that, if the new zones are just more of the same crap, the same pulling/camping, what's the point of the game anymore?

[ShaitynAB]

Just wanted to pop my head in here and make a comment.  I have been playing EQ since Sept of 99.  All that time has been spent in friendly guilds.  First, Hand of Mana on the Nameless, now The Insane on AB.  In those near 5 years in EQ, I have come across many more people who choose to remain in those friendly guilds than I have people that are raiding PoT.  

Earlier in this thread, someone stated that those that aren't raiding probably would not have the longevity in the game that raiding players do.  I have to strongly disagree with this statement.    There are those of us that started EQ, joined a guild, and made lasting friendships. Those friendships are what  keeps EQ going strong-through the bugs and the crappy expansions-not some desire to be able to say "My worthless pixel is better than your worthless pixel" or "I killed that group of pixels and you haven't!"

It seems that some people have this mistaken impression that the casual players of EQ aren't enjoying EQ just because we are not killing the same content or exploring the same worlds that the Ubers are.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  When I solo something that is challenging to me or my guild takes down a mob that is challenging to us, we get the same feeling of accomplishment that the guilds in PoT get, simply because we are not in competition with them.  We play the game our way, we do what is fun to us, and we don't worry that Soandso killed this a year ago in a tenth the time.  We're just happy to be there, together.  And I think THAT is the core of your EQ player base.

[Coprolith]

Urim, that quote in your sig couldnt be more appropriate to your last post. Have you been following this thread at all?

[Urim]

Have you been following this thread at all?

On and off, i find the whole idea rather stupid. Low to mid level players bitching and whining about not having enough places to experience but at the same time commenting about how they only go to a few zones.  My comment was about the poster previous to me sarcastically saying he wanted to sit in OT killing sarnak after sarnak. If he truly didn't want to sit in OT doing that with his alt then he would explore other zones and find other places to kill mob after mob after mob. There are TONS of zones for people of those levels to go for experience and with the mudflation of items nowadays it makes soloing or grouping in these zones (plus zones that back in the day were for higher level players) all the more easier.

While i agree that some new zones should come out for those players, i dont agree with the mentality that EVERY expansion should have something for those players. LoY for example was primarily for them, there was nothing in that expansion for higher level players. The ONLY reason many high level players even bothered to buy that expansion was for the maps and extra bank space, i know if not for those then i myself would not have purchased it. Expansions such as GoD and PoP that were designed for the high level raider also benefit the lower level players because eventually they will come to a point in their progression where they themselves will experience and make full use of that content, but when content is added ONLY for the lower level characters then the same thing cannot be said about high levels players eventually making use of that content. Simple fact is that by adding more higher level content to the game it will benefit more players in the long run.

And yes, i believe the quote in my sig does fit this whole topic rather well.

[The Kittenpeeler]

Urim,

You have a small problem with your reasoning. You assume that I've "never seen the big wide world". There's three zones I've never been to, pre-pop. Veeshan's Peak, Sleeper's Tomb, and Vex Thal. You can add in Kithicor, Mons Letalis, and Kael as zones I haven't hunted in for experience.

If I'm playing an alt, what makes you think I want to see the same crap I saw the first few times around?

Level 65 has two full expansions geared around it. Do you hunt in Qinimi or BoT? Why not, that's content for you!

Before people whine about the lowbies packing into just a few zones out of "all that content", they should take a look at their own habits.

[Coprolith]

Urim,

You have a small problem with your reasoning

Naw, he's got a big problem by not taking the effort to read the whole thread. He's just re-hashing old arguments that have already been countered. There's always someone in long threads like these, hence my quip about the quote in his sig. Its best just to ignore these arguments and not to whine about the whining over whining, that just takes the momentum out of the thread.

/hugs

[Bryc]

Expansions such as GoD and PoP that were designed for the high level raider also benefit the lower level players because eventually they will come to a point in their progression where they themselves will experience and make full use of that content, but when content is added ONLY for the lower level characters then the same thing cannot be said about high levels players eventually making use of that content

This isn't really true, because the term "high-level content" is a moving target in EQ.

The level caps have been 50, 60, 65 and now 70. By your reasoning, adding a bunch of level 50 content in original EQ made sense because all characters would eventually experience that lvl 50 content. Adding a bunch of lvl 60 content through Kunark-Velious-SoL made sense because all characters would eventually experience that lvl 60 content, etc.

In reality, most of the level 60 content is now irrelevant. People hit PoP as soon as they are 51. Fungus Grove is essentially empty, Velks is empty, Old Sebilis is mostly empty. These were all high level zones, now they are less populated than LoY.

The same is true of adding current level 65 content. It will be as empty as West Karana in 2 expansions. Therefore, over the long term, it is equivalent to adding zones for level 20 players.

[feralize]

I think you're missing his point. He's not saying they are still "high-level" zones, but that they are now availbale to use when you reach a certain level. Sure a lot of people do go to PoP as early as the high-40's but if that is the case why bother making new content for that level range if they're never gonna go there anyway - i.e. LoY.

I go to LoY all the time and it's dead? Why? Because the mobs don't give the same amount of xp as they do in PoP and people have to make a 10 min run to get there. The zones themselves are, imo, more interesting but that doesn't seem to make much difference. People want instant xp/gratification now.

Some people whine that there's not enough content for them but then still take the path of least resistance or (perceived) most-reward anyway. For someone who actually wants to hunt in a different xp spot every night there's plenty of places to go all the way until the high 50's.