Is it OUR fault?

[Coprolith]

*sigh*

You know what? Why bother making new expansions at all? I mean, not only is there plenty of content for the casual gamer, there are dozens of raid zones as well. "Stop whining about there not being enough raid content for you." When your guild finishes GoD, they can just go back to doing Vox/naggy, Kunark dragons, NToV, Sleeper's, Ssra, VT, EPs and poT. Or stay in GoD forever, there's half a dozen more raid zones for you there.


Can we go back to the part of the discussion that was actually constructive now?

[danaconda]

Sorry to say this, but I've skipped ahead from page 2 somewhere. So if this was posted or addressed forgive me please  :oops: .

Quick background on where I left off.....someone mentioned that SoE simply can't lock off content to high lvl players. Why not? There's already tons of locked off content for mid/low-level players and for casual high enders. That being said, why don't they simply make a few zones in the next expansion with specific level ranges, such as 50-55 and have an NPC that pulls a Vox/Naggy sitting at entrance and bans those players above 55 and below 50 from entering?

Another idea that kind of flows with the last one, but can be implemented easily since they have this kind of stuff already in some GoD zone.......make the entrance area (not zone-wide) for a zone have an unresistable AoE that cancels all buffs off a player and have it hit every tick, so there are no buffed characters entering the zone.... would be a GREAT way to limit some things like KEI/Virtue buffed characters from unbalancing groups. (could make it be like that for new instanced zones also)

That's just a couple ideas I had floating in my head.

[Aneya]

In a way I have to agree with Urim and Feralize. There is a lot of content for lvls 1-50 but most people, present company excluded, have not explored it fully. If you have seen 90% of the zones, you are the exception, not the norm. When I was in a family guild I used to run tour of norrath raids. The idea was to expose them to zones they normaly would not go to. Eventualy some of them started to explore on their own but left to their own device they stay where things are either easy or where they can get "optimal exp". I say in quotes "optimal" because I beleive they are under the misconception that those populare zones are really optimal. The reason being they spend hours LFG while I would solo in some random zone all by myself steadily gaining xp.

If we go back and look at the demographics but this time ask the question what percentage of Norrath have you explored you will still get a 80/20 distribution. 80% have explored 20% of the content and 20% have explore 80% of the content. You can keep throwing content in and this percentage will remain relatively constant. Its human nature.

As for uber guilds going back and redoing older content some do and some don't. I beleive the majority don't because they view raiding as a way to get better equipment. So there is no insentive to go back and do older content. However, if you uber guild is more interested in exploring the world and taking down content because its there and is or was a challenge then you would go back to see that content. Its the same 80/20 rule.

My point is that its human nature for people to react the way they do. Just like its their nature to be out of touch with other classes skills and spreading missinformation accidentaly. As a mature comunity like ours its our job to realize this and work against it one way or another. My hope is that the people at SoE realize the complexity of the social aspects of the game they are trying to change.

[Hrann]

The uber guilds consist primarily of people doing at least one of three things: finding a group of people who have similar schedules and who can adventure and advance on a more consistant basis than the masses, trying to become more powerful through equipment upgrades, trying to win the game.

In a game that needs to have long term vision, trying to develop for a crowd such as that is a losing proposition.  They will always have more than enough time and willpower to defeat anything you throw against them in short order.  Eventually they will either "win" or run out of equipment upgrades.  If you continually create more content for their upgrades, in time for them to hit them and move on, you will quickly be creating content that 99% of the rest of Norrath will never see.  It will only get worse over time as the ubers race ahead faster than anyone else and the gap separates more and more.

Creating broader content could help to alleviate this.  Certainly each expansion will raise the bar slightly, allowing the ubers to better themselves, but there should be lots of lateral content, that is no harder than the old stuff (only new).  This will allow the ubers the flesh out themselves with new things and exploration, while creating new content for the masses.  Every six months or so, the masses can get excited about exploring some new content; even if they haven't explored the old, this is still good for the bottom line.

Ultimately, you may have more of the uber crowd getting bored and leaving (mostly the ones that are only satisfied with better and not newer), but IMHO that is a better situation than having the majority feel that the expansions hold nothing for them to see or enjoy.  The key is to have innovative ideas that will give the higher end people new facets of the game to play with, so they don't realize (or dwell on the fact) that they are actually not getting much stronger.

[Urim]

You have a small problem with your reasoning. You assume that I've "never seen the big wide world".

People that fall into that description are in the very, very, very tiny minority. I've seen every zone except Veeshan's Peak but i still occasionally go back to some zones and try out things like soloing a mob i didn't think i could, seeing how many mobs i can take on at a time, running through old quests without looking at guides just to see what the quest is all about and waste some time.

Level 65 has two full expansions geared around it. Do you hunt in Qinimi or BoT? Why not, that's content for you!

Casual players and low level players have 2 expansion geared around them, LoY and LDoN. And don't tell me that LDoN isn't actually for the casual player like some have earlier in this thread. Casual players have been screaming for a while for a way to log on for an hour or two and feel like getting something done. BINGO! there you go. And yes i do hunt in Qinimi and BoT sometimes.

Naw, he's got a big problem by not taking the effort to read the whole thread.

Read the whole thread, hell was 3rd post. Fact is, the thread changed somewhere around halfway down page 1 to the current topic of hardcore vs. casual when it comes to zones/raiding/content.

He's just re-hashing old arguments that have already been countered.

Countered when? When you were talking about how "There's nothing wrong with creating separate content for hardcore and casuals in itself." We all know how well seperating content for hardcore and casuals went over when flags were required to progress to the hardcore areas. Pretty sure there is still bitching and moaning about those flags. Or were you talking about when people posted about instancing zones? Instancing has ruined the game in my opinion, it takes out the fantasy of it. There is no more running to get to mobs before another person/guild because you know that you can have your very own mob, kinda like how things work in the fantasy books or fantasy movies, right?!

You know what? Why bother making new expansions at all? I mean, not only is there plenty of content for the casual gamer, there are dozens of raid zones as well. "Stop whining about there not being enough raid content for you." When your guild finishes GoD, they can just go back to doing Vox/naggy, Kunark dragons, NToV, Sleeper's, Ssra, VT, EPs and poT. Or stay in GoD forever, there's half a dozen more raid zones for you there.

Guess what, thats exactly what happened after PoP was beat. Going back and killing the same shit over and over again while in the meantime two expansions come out that offer nothing new. Now two expansions are coming out that are offering new things for the high levels and not much for the others. And now there is a ton of whining about not adding enough new content for the casuals with these expansions. So apparently is was good when 2 expansions were released offering little to nothing for the hardcores, but sits horrible when 2 expansions are released offering little to nothing for the casuals.

[Lorathir]

There doesn't seem to be an incentive for people to go to exciting zones like Guk when there are safe zones like TM and DSP. Money isn't hard to come by these days either. Why bother dragging some poor unfortunates to camp the smelly ol FBSS in a scarey dungeon when you can farm swirling shadows and silks for a few days and buy SCHW?

Instead of getting a new expansion that contained zones for mid level players why not rework some of the current zones? Nurga was a good start but it's way too soloable.

How about a Seb 2.0 or Kaesora 2.0? New loot tables without doing a Droga and buffing up the mobs so as to tempt people into zones that owned back in the day.

No drop, level restricted gear that's sweet - crazy effects like a 30 min skelly illusion buff, 10 charges of no rent FD potions, stat food dropping from mobs, triggered mini ring events that spawns "Puppet of Bristlebane" low level ok-ish-but-not-what-your-there-for-but-it's-always-cool-looting-stuff-with-stats loot that drops randomly from any mob. It's really just about tempting people with cool shit and making them take risks again - ya know, like we had to.

People are lazy/scared/can't be arsed to do exciting stuff when the alternative is too easy to get the same or better results. Make the exciting scarey zones tempting again and I guarantee you this - the casual player won't care about 65 when the journey there is made once again an exciting, dangerous but ultimately rewarding experience.

Why do you think people are racing to 65? Because someone told them there would be a big bunny to give them a hug and an army of adoring gnomes? Nope. It's because the mid levels are going stagnant because we are being spoon fed zones that are staid, badly designed and boring, boring, boring. New players think 65's when all the action happens and who could blame them if people have no reason to get out of Dawnshroud.

[Catrika]

Here is the problem in my opinion.. and is basically the same that has been mentioned im sure.

Just because some individual wants to think he is a uber person/joins uber guild.. and raids 3 or so hours a night.. Does not give him the right to items that a CASUAL player shouldn't be able to get in the same amount of time.

Guild should not equal items..

Time should equal items..

Maybe jo blow doesn't like the uber guild atmospere.. should he be punished?.. No

So if you have fun in the raiding type thing.. have at it.. get yer items..
If you dont, and enjoy more of a family type guild.. have at it.. get yer items..

this is where LDoN should come into play.

Point pools should be totally restructered.

Different areas are fine but.. all vendors should have all items..

If you have 2000, it should unlock everything everywhere under 2000 points..

this would get rid of the.. hey i dont wanna do GuK cause all my stuff is in butcherblock crap.

They should put time level gear on LDoN merchants.. AT 1000 points or so.  the stuff they have at the top of LDoN right now.. costs way to much time for what it is.

at 51 points/item that would take 20 missions for ONE piece.


I feel sorry for all you people that have this EGO thing that is hey.. im better then you, I joined an uberguild. whoohoo

It takes NOTHING to get into Time.. 4 zones.. Can be done in a few days. a couple if the guys are up.  so dont go saying hey.. bla bla.. it takes so much time.  all it takes is enough idiots to get together and think they have formed or are the uberguild..  And anyone who DID actually Put in the beginning time and went through the zone progression.. boohoo.. you get the priveledge of beating the zones/quest to get there, and seeing them.  You did get stat points on your charm aswell did you not?

It should not be about Keeping everyone else lower cause you want to make yourself feel better.. The Ego thing again.

Just because ubers have 50-60 does not make them better, nor should it.

There are numerous Drops/Ele, Time raid. for a minor amount of time involved.

The same should be said for what the Average family guild gets.

[Lorathir]

I think this is an excellent thread but on occasion it does taste of "us and them."

While I understand some people feel strongly about some of the issues discussed, let's remember to keep it civil. I don't wanna see this get locked - I'm really enjoying everyone putting their 2cp in   8)

[Aneya]

Instead of getting a new expansion that contained zones for mid level players why not rework some of the current zones? Nurga was a good start but it's way too soloable.

Whats wrong with soloable zones? Its hard enougth trying to get people to explore new or revemped zones, forcing them to have to group is not going to make them want to go.

How about a Seb 2.0 or Kaesora 2.0? New loot tables without doing a Droga and buffing up the mobs so as to tempt people into zones that owned back in the day.

Seb is still quite popular on my server. The only real point of frustration is the locked doors that can only be opened by Rogues. Most of the zones they revamped are under utilized zones. Kaesora might be a candidate but I like to old Kaesora as it is. My old guild learn many things about raiding in that dungeon.

No drop, level restricted gear that's sweet

PoM has stuff like that but people hardly ever go to PoM. You know why, because most players don't spend the time to research new/revamped zones and find out what goodies drop there. Adding convoluted scripts to non end game zones is a sure way of not getting it used. Ask yourself, how many guild have solved the chessboard problem or kill the new bristlebane in PoM. The old inner Acrylia Caverns key is a clasic example of complecated scripts failing. When it comes to pleasing the masses, the KISS principle applies.

People are lazy/scared/can't be arsed to do exciting stuff when the alternative is too easy to get the same or better results. Make the exciting scarey zones tempting again and I guarantee you this - the casual player won't care about 65 when the journey there is made once again an exciting, dangerous but ultimately rewarding experience.

My experience of the casual player is that they are highly allergic to danger and excitement regardless of the reward.

Why do you think people are racing to 65?

Not all casual players don't race to 65. There is nothing to be gained from it. They can't afford lvl 63-64 spells let alone lvl 65 spells. I know plenty of casual players that are under 60 and will remain so for month to come. At the rate they consume content, they won't need a new expanssion for a year or two.  As for why some people do, there are lots of reasons but thats another discussion for another time.

Just because some individual wants to think he is a uber person/joins uber guild.. and raids 3 or so hours a night.. Does not give him the right to items that a CASUAL player shouldn't be able to get in the same amount of time.

Guild should not equal items..
Time should equal items..

um no. from that point of view, I should get the same reward killing orcs in crushboned for an hour as I do in Time for an hour. EQ is based on Risk VS Reward. If Casual players are able to survive the same degree of risk they should receive the same reward. GoD is a good implementation of that. Everyone can try to get into Kod'Taz. Everyone has to survive the same risk in order to achieve the reward, access to Kod'Taz and uber loot. Once in Kod'Taz, same deal, everyone can try to kill named mobs in Kod'Taz and get the same reward.

If you have 2000, it should unlock everything everywhere under 2000 points.. this would get rid of the.. hey i dont wanna do GuK cause all my stuff is in butcherblock crap.

Yes it would get rid of the don't wanna do GuK crap but not for the better. The majority of people will go to the easiest LDoN camp and keep doing that one. You essentialy remove any insentive to do any of the other camps. LDoN has illustrated the selfish nature of most EQ players. They only care about their personal gain and not in helping others.

It takes NOTHING to get into Time.. 4 zones.. Can be done in a few days. a couple if the guys are up. so dont go saying hey.. bla bla.. it takes so much time. all it takes is enough idiots to get together and think they have formed or are the uberguild.. And anyone who DID actually Put in the beginning time and went through the zone progression.. boohoo.. you get the priveledge of beating the zones/quest to get there, and seeing them. You did get stat points on your charm aswell did you not?

um right. Not sure this even deserves a comment.

As a CASUAL PLAYER in a FAMILY GUILD it tooke me 5 days to get a BST epic and 7 to get a CLR epic. Does this make the journey any less meaningful for those that took a full year to do the same? If I can do that in a Family Guild, then they should be able to get into Kod Taz if they put their mind to it. In fact, on several servers, people have banded together in informal alliances and progressed through PoP.

EQ is the land of equal opportunity. Everyone starts out with nothing and ends up with something more then nothing. How far you get depends on how good you are and how much you invest. Time is not the only investment required. There are investments in research and social cultural investments. If you don't invest in all factors that promote success in eq you are less likely to suceed. An uber guild getting to time or an alliance of family guilds getting to time put just as much effort into it one way or another. Some just take longer to complete the journey than others.

The choice is yours, Deal with the hand you where delt or leave the table.

[Aneya]

The choice is yours, Deal with the hand you where delt or leave the table.

P.S. and in my opinion, Afterlife and FoH decided to leave the table.

[Catrika]

lol.. lets not compare orcs to apples please..

and sorry, there is nothing risky about 70 people going into an ele/time plane..

things die just as quick as any normal group xping basically.  

only you got 10 clerics, 10 druids, a couple shaman healing instead of 1..  the risk is basically the same.
numbers counteract risk.

and yes you can get time flagged in a couple days.. sorry if that bursts some sorta bubble you have about the plane.

Are you trying to say that an uberguild death hurts the character anymore then an Average player?

Risk goes just as far as the hp=0, That's  it..  Yer not risking losing your corpse forever are ya?.. nope, didn't think so.. so get off the risk vs reward.

its just as risky for the character of a small guild to take on such and such content as it is for 70+ players to blast through a zone in a few hours.

this game basically tears down family type guilds by forcing people to either be compacent in not having anything ever.. or leaving the guild to become one of the
supposed elite who think their blank doesn't stink.  A game should not be that way, but offer different routes to the same thing.

some people enjoy the thrill of 70 person raids some dont.

[Lorathir]

Whats wrong with soloable zones? Its hard enougth trying to get people to explore new or revemped zones, forcing them to have to group is not going to make them want to go.

Nothing at all. There should be soloable zones, but EQ is really about grouping and in grouping that's where you should get the most exp and best loot. They should have an option and not feel FORCED into grouping, but WANT to group because the rewards are better - and not just loot, but a better gaming experience.

Seb is still quite popular on my server. The only real point of frustration is the locked doors that can only be opened by Rogues. Most of the zones they revamped are under utilized zones. Kaesora might be a candidate but I like to old Kaesora as it is. My old guild learn many things about raiding in that dungeon.

Yes, it's still recieving traffic on my servers too, but it's drastically reduced. Perhaps Seb wasn't the best example to use but you get where I'm coming from. There's a boat load of zones that are underused and could use a 2004 lick o paint.

PoM has stuff like that but people hardly ever go to PoM.

POM sucks since it's revamp. It rocked before - I ask you, what other zone has had a whole website devoted to it? People aren't going to POM because they actually *have* researched it, and got a unanimous "POM suxxors" when they asked about it. Hard to drag people along to a zone that's got fubar'ed.

My experience of the casual player is that they are highly allergic to danger and excitement regardless of the reward.

You could be right there. But who's to say that wouldn't change if SOE hired me to do their crap for them? Hmm, maybe if I swear more... :twisted:

[Aneya]

Nothing at all. There should be soloable zones, but EQ is really about grouping and in grouping that's where you should get the most exp and best loot. They should have an option and not feel FORCED into grouping, but WANT to group because the rewards are better - and not just loot, but a better gaming experience.

Then Torgiran mines would be an ideal zone. Can solo there for decent loot but to get the good stuff of the two bosses need 6 and 18 people respectively.

Yes, it's still recieving traffic on my servers too, but it's drastically reduced. Perhaps Seb wasn't the best example to use but you get where I'm coming from. There's a boat load of zones that are underused and could use a 2004 lick o paint.[/qotue]
My fear is that even with a revamp most people won't go. Those who do reap the rewards, those who don't lose out. You can take a horse to water but can't make it drink it.

POM sucks since it's revamp. It rocked before - I ask you, what other zone has had a whole website devoted to it? People aren't going to POM because they actually *have* researched it, and got a unanimous "POM suxxors" when they asked about it. Hard to drag people along to a zone that's got fubar'ed.[/qotue]

I've read that site before and after revamp. Sadly I never managed to go there before revamp because it was next to impossible to get to unless you where uber. Had they moved PoM to GD without revamp I would be able to form a fair impression of what it was before. However, I have explored PoM V2 and like it. Trouble is getting people to go is like pulling teeth.

[Coprolith]

It is just so typical of the hardcore players mentality to think that their needs and wants are different from those of casual gamers.

When they've beaten the toughest zone available to them they have 'beaten the game' and scream for new content. Newsflash: casuals "beat the game" too. They beat the toughest zones available to them. There are even tougher zones in the game, but in practice they are unreachable either because
a) SOE put a timesink in front of those zones that keeps hardcore players out for a few months. For casual player that timesink is virtually impossible to overcome without vegetating into a mindless drone. Or
b) The zones require a power upgrade that takes months if not years of AA grinding and gear upgrades to attain, just to become even remotely doable. Yay, more vegetating. New expansions are coming out much faster then casual players can progress thru the old content, and thats a good thing too because without them people would simply quit on account of the game becoming too boring

I frequent over a dozen zones on a regular basis, and i never ever see an EP+ flagged player there other then to farm items for cash. Pre-LDoN, EP+ flagged player flocked to PoFire like newbies to Paludal, and a lot still do on a regular basis when they are not raiding. Saying that casual players take the road of least resistance and concentrate themselves in a few zones is the height of hypocrisy.
Newsflash #2: xp grinding is by far the most boring aspect of the game. You can't blame people for wanting to get over it as fast as they can and flock to high ZEM zones. And thanks to mudflation (which is turn is caused for the largest part by hardcore players pharming and selling items that casual players cannot obtain themselves), a couple of thousand pp will buy you gear that makes hunting in just about every pre-PoP zone a moot point. The risk-vs-reward ratio of doing Kael raids is near infinite, because there's 0 reward in it for the present day casual player.

All these points were already discussed in the first half of this thread, in much more detail (and a much calmer state of mind). Just as the discussion is starting to get constructive, and people actually start thinking about solutions to the current problems with the state of EQ that would benefit casual and hardcore gamer alike, the thread suddenly degenerates again because some people feel the need to enlighten us with their views that casual gamer should just stfu and stop whining. Well you can take your 'enlightened view' and stick it where the sun don't shine. As my pappa used to say: if you aint got nothing nice to say, STFU.

Newsflash #3: like it or not, casual gamers account for 95% of Sony's revenue for this game. Without them the game would be dead instantly. The reverse however is not the case. Instead of whining about the casuals whining, try joining the discussion in a constructive way, because its in everyone's best interest

[Urim]

Urim, that quote in your sig couldnt be more appropriate to your last post.

As my pappa used to say: if you aint got nothing nice to say, STFU

Coprolith, STFU  :D