We need a NEW Top Ten list of improvements, or changes that we would like to see or feel are essentially wrong or buggy with our class so please post here what you feel they are as detailed as possible so we can post this on the EQ forums, and start PMing Devs and Correspondents with our feedback.
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements
2.) Need more raid utility other than SE/MGB AoS is there ways to improve what we have currently? Is there something new we can come up with? (toughy)
3.) Pet DPS/Mitgation of dmg/buffs - what do we need and dont need?
4.) New Slow?
5.) Group Haste
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
7.) ???
8.) ???
9.) ???
10.) ???
What else needs to be on this list? What doesn't need to be on this list? I will edit and change accordingly just to get something together.
P.S. Haggatha if you read this and have a top ten list that you made can you please post it here to share with us to discuss, look over ect?
Quote from: Mewzee on May 12, 2007, 02:42:29 AM
We need a NEW Top Ten list of improvements, or changes that we would like to see or feel are essentially wrong or buggy with our class so please post here what you feel they are as detailed as possible so we can post this on the EQ forums, and start PMing Devs and Correspondents with our feedback.
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements
>>> Or drop altogether. Don't give up anything for this PoS (and that doesn't stand for Paragon). It's been a chain around our neck. Don't beg for overcap stat increase, imo. Shamans will cry and they will overweight the benefit of this turd.
2.) Need more raid utility other than SE/MGB AoS is there ways to improve what we have currently? Is there something new we can come up with? (toughy)
>>> SE/MGB? Also, chain around our neck. AoS is overweighted becuase it's impact is calculated against extra damage that a full raid (and probably a chuck of wizards) can produce. Sure other classes are happy to have us carry these chains, but they'd give up nothing to take them on.
Sorry not giving suggestion, just agreeing that Paragon and SE have lost value
3.) Pet DPS/Mitgation of dmg/buffs - what do we need and dont need?
>>> In my opinion, giving us spells to keeps pets alive is not a gift, if it cost us spell slots. Pet need to hit AC softcap with bst buffs. I can live with sucky pet DPS is it not also detracting from my own DPS to keep the sucky DPS alive.
4.) New Slow?
>>> Before the level increase was annoumced I would have said not a chance. With the level increase, the class is dead as a slower class if Slows are not reworked. Devs explained how slows worked in forums today, but they did not say explicitly that they will continue down the path of removing Slow from the game.
Reworked slows must be cast, not tied to pets. Name any other class that has to spend AA's (pet focus) to be able to use a new version of a core ability on 2 different mobs.
5.) Group Haste
>>> Convenience buffs. Sucks that we don't have one already, but I would give up nothing for this.
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
>>> I only agree with this to helps trolls, because they seem to miss their gators.
7.) ???
>>> Fix Steeltrap. And fixing a broken spell does not count as getting a new spell.
8.) ???
>>> We need resist modifiers on DoT and Nukes. They saw the light with Bite of the Empress, but it has become a judgement call whether to DoT/Nuke because of mana and time lost from fizzles and resists.
9.) ???
>>> Cures. These used to be a part of the class. Give 'em back. Jeez, back at the variety of spells we used to have. I don't even recognize me anymore.
10.) ???
Endurance regen. Boy, this would be a toughy. Whoever gets this will be saddled with class envy for years to come. I don't know if I want this. Might be a chain like Paragon has become.
What else needs to be on this list? What doesn't need to be on this list? I will edit and change accordingly just to get something together.
P.S. Haggatha if you read this and have a top ten list that you made can you please post it here to share with us to discuss, look over ect?
Added my comments above. I don't care if my ideas make the list, I am more worried that we as a group stand united behind the final list we come up with.
Other classes say we are disjointed and that is used against us.
Quote from: Mewzee on May 12, 2007, 02:42:29 AM
We need a NEW Top Ten list of improvements, or changes that we would like to see or feel are essentially wrong or buggy with our class so please post here what you feel they are as detailed as possible so we can post this on the EQ forums, and start PMing Devs and Correspondents with our feedback.
1.) Need more raid utility other than SE/MGB AoS is there ways to improve what we have currently? Is there something new we can come up with? (toughy)
---- Make AoS useful, find us a group aura / spell that will allow us to mgb or single group a spell, ala growl. Increases max hps adds some mod 2's.
2.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements
---- They won't go back and change the original fero, so only 2 ish people would get the benefit from the new fero. I don't want it to be group - can you imagine the mana cost?
3.) Our DPS
---- Our dps is tied to our pets 1/3 of it actually. In the current state of the game, we mostly lose our pets all of the time on raids. (yes, there have been times when I've kept him up for an entire raid, but those times are few and far between) There are also times when pets are prohibited from a raid. With the level increase, we need more double attack, and more disc's(not tied to the pet) / spells to get us more dps.
4.) Pet DPS/Mitgation of dmg/buffs - what do we need and dont need?
---- I'd rather have a live pet, then one doing more dps. Pet dps from what I've seen has been decent, but if the pet isn't alive.. it plummets.. right? Mammoth-Hide guard was a step in the right direction, but how many of us can say we use it on a regular basis. Oh, and make all pets immune to damage shields.
5.) New Slow?
---- yes! as the above poster stated.. make it not tied to the pet.
6.) Cures
---- I would like to be able to cure a curse dot on myself, we are a shaman hybrid.. how long have shaman's been able to cure curse... its about time we get rgc or something similar.
7.) Group Haste
---- Convenience buffs. Sucks that we don't have one already, but I would give up nothing for this. (yeah, I stole some :P )
8.) Endurance regen
---- I've been harping on this for a long time, and it would help out with the spell I was talking about earlier.. the growl mgb/single group thing. Add it on to be part of our SE line, or give us an aura type spell that gives us a slight boost to end regen
9.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
---- Honestly, I could care less if I've got a slug alongside to fight with me, as long as he does does some dps/and lives through a fight
10.) ???
---- Yeah, I don't really have anything to comment on about a 10th wish. If they even took a look at the first 5 we present, I'll probably be happy.
Give up a timed self invis aa
First off, and I think this is very important as we all give our ideas and feelings, I am a raiding Beastlord that has completed TSS and will be moving into Solteris soon. Depending on the content each of us is in at the time and about 1000 other variables our outlooks are going to be different. That is one of the reasons I love playing a Beastlord over other classes, there is room for individual play styles.
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements I think the devs are actually looking at adding a mod 2, there was some discussion after this rumor came out. I like the +accuracy someone suggested as part of it. Also if they bust the attack softcap like it is being eluded to that will make fero a lot more usable.
2.) Need more raid utility other than SE/MGB AoS is there ways to improve what we have currently? Is there something new we can come up with? (toughy)
I was 100% on this boat that our raid utility is awful, but now I am starting to reconsider. AoS has defiantly not upgraded over time as it should have and would like to see it more effective, but in more recent events I have seen it very useful in raids. It is not the "raid saving" ability it once was but can still give enough of a boost to keep things going. (I have seen this on Lethar 2.0 a few times now) If you add that too the fact (and I am probably going to get a ton of flames about this part but will discuss more later) our DPS has improved with TBS and I have been able to put up some very respectable sustained DPS numbers on 95% of the fights in TSS, our overall raid value has increased some I think a lot of the problem is perception. I believe our raid utility needs some good tweaking but we are not as far off as I once thought. I think a solid boost to AoS and possibly some type of aura that would make us more desirable to help in a "DPS Group" scheme could make us a balanced class to have in raids.
3.) Pet DPS/Mitgation of dmg/buffs - what do we need and dont need?
I don't have much to say about pet DPS itself. I consider it part of our DPS. Mitigation on the other hand needs looked at. There are rumors floating around now that the much talked about Pets getting Mod2s may be going into affect. If that does we should see a large change in survivability. Pets getting our Mod2s when summoned should be our focus IMO along with the other pet classes teaming together for this change we may see it. I've seen people saying that they don't use their pets or can't on raids. I know some of the pre-TSS raids were not pet friendly at all, I think the raids have become easier to use them on. There is only one event I don't use my pet on and that is because we don't want to risk it bugging on us (Bentolf) and only one other that I have problems with my pet dying on (Harelor). You could throw Harfange in there as a bad fight for pets but I do other things during that fight anyhow so it doesn't come into the equation for me. I don't use any of the block spells to keep the pet up either just Promised Mending/Pet heal.
4.) New Slow?
I think we should pick areas we have a hope of improving our class with and this is not one of them. I would guess we will get a new slow with the new expansion. If we start asking for it, we are going to be "perceived" as trying to cross over farther into other classes. It's just a battle I think should be left to the other classes as how slow should be worked with the partial effectiveness and whatever they get will trickle down to us. Steeltrap was fun in theory and I can appreciate the idea of it but really doesn't work too well. There is one Idea that I heard a while back that did seam interesting, though it did not necessarily have to be beastlord related. Stacking slows, for the mobs that are partially slow able and such, have your regular line of slows that do not stack but for another option on slowing say a Shaman cast their second line of slow that hits fully for 25% the Class number 2 cast their slow that sticks for another 10% so on and so forth. Once again not something I am advocating for just think it is an interesting idea.
5.) Group Haste
Long overdue. I don't know that I would ever use it but cannot see why it is not part of our spell lineups. It's not like anyone asked for a better % haste.
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
Takes forever to see this stuff implemented. Don't know why but I would expect to see it eventually.
7.) Cures
This is the one spot (although not really as important as some of the others) that I say WTF!!! We are supposedly half-shaman, why did rangers get a new cure and we did not. If you talk to most rangers they rarely ever use it but it is more the idea that before we had a slightly higher ability to cure then they did and now we still have the same cures. I'm not screaming nerf rangers or anything, it just seamed like an ability if you were going to give to one class that we should of received something like it.
8.) Incapacitate
It is a line of spells we got from one of our parent classes that just stopped all of a sudden. I doubt I would really ever use an upgrade to this but it may be something to look at.
9.) Aura/Group DPS ability
I would of loved to see us get an aura back in PoR and still would like to see one someday, but even if not an aura I think a true group utility for DPS would help us out. If you want to throw out the "parent class" argument, since we are related to shaman and they have so many DPS enhancing abilities, wouldn't it make sense for us to carve our own niche out in that field. I would love to hear just once, hey Raid_Leader_001, move that beastlord into this group so I can get......... Instead of, hey Raid_Leader_001, move that beastlord out of the group so I can get Monk,Zerker aura/bard or whatever else you can think from another class.
10.) Being able to Name your Warder.
Don't really have anything for here and that was the first that popped into my head lol. Would be a fun thing to do.
10 1/2.) Range
I am not really going to count this as something to try to get, more of just a personal interest. I would like to see more of a range fight option for us. Personally, with rogues being the only class that I can think of with a throwing disc and us having almost no discs, I wouldn't mind seeing one. Nothing super strong like a rogues but a way to stay outside ramp and do a bit more damage then casting a nuke every 30 seconds. I just think this could be something fun and not really step on anyones toes.
I am really starting to believe our #1 problem is perception at the moment. Everyone thinks of Beastlords in a different way depending on their personal interactions with them, and with the differences in how people choose to play a beast that can effect if they believe us to be useful/junk class. After talking with a lot of people in my guild, I am also leaning towards that we got the best spells in TBS. While neither of the spells were things that anyone asked for, they turned into some of the biggest DPS boosts we have ever seen. Currently on most fights I parse in the top 5 of my guild, sometimes in the top 10 but it depends on the fight. The beastlords that do not have the spells are far behind that. That brings me to another point, one of the reasons I think we were perceived so low before is because of our DPS and I think we have a niche spot in DPS now. We will never constantly beat the top DPS classes nor should we but we are great sustained DPS. We start to shine the longer the fight goes on, the 3 minute fights we are going to see a fall off from the DPS of other classes, but when the fight goes on and those classes have burnt out their discs/mana we are still staying at the same amount of DPS and benefiting the raid as a whole by doing it.
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements
/shrugs, I agree mostly with whats been said already
2.) Need more raid utility other than SE/MGB AoS is there ways to improve what we have currently? Is there something new we can come up with? (toughy)
We have increased decently since this was a major issue, I agree that we need tweaking and we do not have a "defining", "raid-breaking" ability such as clerics, rogues, and others... but we are a jack of all trades, master of none if my memory serves me.
3.) Pet DPS/Mitgation of dmg/buffs - what do we need and dont need?
Pet getting our AA mitigation or gear mitigation would be nice. Or the higher level focuses giving innate +avoidance/shielding/dot shielding/spell shielding modifiers or other things to better distinguish say... a servant of chaos/spire servant warder, from a minion of darkness one when it comes to living to AE rampage or other hazards. Doubt it would happen, but would be nice. 1000 raw HP isn't much of a difference in pet survivability in higher end raiding I imagine.
4.) New Slow?
/shrugs... not worried here.
5.) Group Haste
Group 15min duration haste.. 50%
Single 36min duration haste.. 50%
Either will do. Not going crazy on the duration/percent, so that shamans/enchanters won't get upset.
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
Vah shir have new tiger models in their home city, and as part of the epic 2.0..... yet our pet remains the older model.
I'm sure trolls miss their gator.
The ogre bear still looks kinda... Kunark~ish.
Iksar still have the freezing pet issue to my knowledge or was it fixed?
Barbarians, I don't know.
7 Cures
I'd like to be able to get rid of poison more effectively, or have a very low ability to cure curse or detrimental. Again, very conservative here to not make the priest classes get upset.
I troll the boards quite a bit but haven't posted in a long while. This is my personal top10 of things I would like to see for the beastlord class. So I thought I would chime in.
1. Raid Utility:
From what I have seen, we are getting an upgrade to the AoS line in the next expansion, but I'm sure that's no surprise. It's still used in raids, and I don't ever see it being not used on raids. Of course it's not nearly as effective as it used to be, anything to counter fights with heavy spell/dot damage helps. Ideas for improved utility. There is currently a niche available that I think would increase our raid utility a TON. Endurance based regen/reduction. Adding endurance regeneration to the AoS and SE lines would be awesome, maybe in the same line as the amount of mana regen they both add (even though I wish AoS regened more mana).
A beastlord using all their tools in good order can put up some nice numbers on the DPS chart. I believe we are strongest in the DPS group setting (mainly with a shaman and bard). Adding an aura that can work well within this setting would be most beneficial. This goes back to the endurance regen/reduction. An aura that reduces endurance cost at a set percentage per tick and on the spot. Say a 15% save, which would show a 450 endurance save on Empathic Fury. This aura would save endurance and probably work best in this DPS group setting, allowing the pure melee heavy hitters to last longer. These are just a few ideas that I believe would make beastlords hard-hitters in the current raiding and casual game.
2. Ferocity Line - Changes/Improvements:
I think adding mod2s to the ferocity line could be kind of iffy. I'm sure if they did, it would stack with all worn mod2s. Damage modifiers and Double Attack mods have been done for a while now and I know those probably wouldn't do much (especially since some classes cap double attack anyways). Adding Accuracy mod2s to it would work I suppose, but it would have to be a large amount to compare to the effictiveness of buffs such as Champion (if that is even an aim in effectiveness level). Making mob AC higher would seriously help Ferocity out, but it doesn't sound like a good way to fix attack levels. I still cast ferocity on raids, even though I know it doesn't affect the melee dps like it used to.
3. Pet Survivability:
This really hits home for all pet classes, but I think magicians and beastlords the most. Mages use their pets as batteries and decent sustained DPS and beastlords use theirs for growling and discing to pull out with some decent numbers also. If the rumors are correct that pets may be taking on mod2, then we would see both increased DPS, mitigation, and survivability overall. In TSS content, there hasn't been too much trouble in keeping a pet alive from what I can tell at the higher end AG/FC raids. Although on some events it can be pretty bothersome, and from what I have seen of Solteris, it's almost better to go without a pet. I don't particularly use Mammoth's or Spellbreaker's. These take up even more spots and the mana for the minimal gain is not worth it in my book. As far as I can tell, there isn't much they can do in way of giving us any spells that would be balanced and fair that could help this situation. Pets need to be immune from AERampage altogether in my opinion. Let them take on our worn Spell and Dot Shielding. I'm not sure what they could even do or what kind of coding would be required for pets to be immune to it, but taking time away to Spellbreaker/Mammoth or cast heals on them (in turn lowering our own dps) is not sufficient at all and is actually detrimental to us. Promised is the best thing we ever got for survivability due to its super fast cast and low mana cost.
4. Cures:
It's really hard to understand why they neglected this. We are part shaman, just as rangers are part druid. Rangers received a new cure, we didn't. This is something that needs to be addressed since we are the one class connected to priests that doesn't have anything to cure curses. Even bards get decent cures. I don't need to go into this, it's a simple fix that could be put in with the next expansion.
5. DPS/Nukes:
They stepped in the right direction with Bite of the Empress in TBS. It even has a -20 adj on it, I was pretty surprised about that. As for nukes in general. I kind of like the setup of memming a good 3 or so nukes and running with those for added DPS on raids and in groups. Empress helps quite a bit, although it is pretty mana intensive and I would have probably been happier with a poison nuke along the lines of Spiked Sleet, but with a tiny bit better efficiency. In the case of DoTs, I don't think they are worth it really. I honestly wouldn't mind if they discontinued them and put in more useful spells, like a curse cure. Overall though, I'm not sure what could be changed here in terms of overall DPS. It really does tie into a lot of areas. Melee DPS intertwining with pet DPS in the form of growl and Empathic Fury, which then spins right back onto pet survivability to be able to do those things. As I mentioned above, I believe a double attack cap to 75 would be great. If they do a +5 per level over 75, then we will end up with 50 at 80 atleast. In terms of general weapon design, the non-lore h2h weapons will probably become a trend and all for the better I think.
6. Mitigation:
Yes, mitigation. We have been on the druid table for quite some time now. Beastlords can tank "alright" in places like AG when needed, but it takes quite a bit more HP to do so than a monk. I would like to see beastlords go back to the monk table, or right below it. People seem to like to argue against me on this in the sense that beastlords have slow. Considering most anything worth really nice experience at lvl75 is slightly-partially slowable, it's not helping a whole lot. I tried to think of this should be any higher than the other issues and I don't think it is.
7. Group Haste:
A lot of people use heal potions now when there isn't a "haste" class around. Beastlord haste is weak. Not in the sense that it's 50% but that it has such a short duration and long cast time, coupled with the fact that it's only single target. I don't think we'll get a group haste honestly. The best shaman haste is a 60% group buff. Do you think they'd go as far as to give us a 50% group haste? I bet they wouldn't. In the best case scenario, a 15-20min duration, group 50% haste would be great.
8. Steeltrap Jaws:
I think this spell was a good idea really. I've actually used it a few times in places with really high resist rates. It has a -80(rk2) adj over the Legacy's smaller -30 adj. If they fixed it, I think it might be a good alternative for places that we have a hard time slowing in. For the 10min posted duration combined with the 300 mana cost, it sounds like pretty decent mana preservation in not having to cast slows.
9. Pet Models:
I do play a troll, so this might be limited to me. This also isn't really an issue in terms of a beastlord being able to function or not. Some still call the basilisk a gator, but it all comes down to it not being a gator at all. I don't want to rant or anything as I'm sure many have heard it all before. Put in some decent models for the current pets please. The PoEarth basilisk I'm sure would do nicely for trolls. I won't go into the other warders, although the bears have been all "blocky" since the beginning.
10. Slow:
This is a fairly low priority as this issue would affect all classes that can slow. If they do add a slow, I would like to see a resist check of around -60. I think in a sense they are making slow less effective at a slow rate. This probably has a lot to do with level of the mobs. There are a lot of mostly slowables when it comes to light blues at 75s, and it turns into partials soon after. Yellows/reds are most exclusively partial-slightly. I don't consider this a class problem in the sense that they are making slow less effective over time, but it's a tiny problem with the resist check. Like I said, fairly low priority. If I'm chosen to slow in a group, I do a decent job of it atleast.
That is what I have. I don't view anything they give us as a "chain" and think that there really is a lot of potential with what we already have. The endurance based stuff that I posted is a lot of wishful thinking, but if they were to take any of it into account, I think the beastlord would fit this niche perfectly. I want to reiterate what Perrinn said; there is a lot of problem with perception. We really aren't as far off as many think. I've seen beastlords in previous guilds play the bare minimum. It isn't a class you can just turn autoattack on and watch the fireworks. A beastlord using all of its tools to the greatest effect is a good addition to any group and raid.
I still wish Steeltrap jaws was a 65% slow, instead of 70%, simply so we have the option of overwriting it with our own slow.
Quote from: Nusa on May 13, 2007, 07:32:32 PM
I still wish Steeltrap jaws was a 65% slow, instead of 70%, simply so we have the option of overwriting it with our own slow.
I totally agree with this, but I would prefer that it was the other way around with steeltrap having a duration more like revenage (I think its 2min vs. 1 min on Advantage)
I def agree with the mitigation changes, we need to be more toward the monk table than druid. I think the self timed invis will never happen, but we can dream.
ok mewzee, you started this thread, so you get to consolidate it.
But know that whatever you end up with, I will support it completely. United we stand, and all that.
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements
2.) Minohten heal needs to be upgraded to be able to have poison/disease/curse cures to be in line with Ranger single target heal/cure spell Potamid Salve/Springwater.
Heck maybe Muada's mending too even thou its a past spell, but just to stay in line with rangers, or give us a new spell in next expansion with this request.
(edited above due to wrong spell name - oops brainfart)
3.) Raid Utility
4.) New Slow / Fix Steeltrap Jaws better than what it is
5.) Group Haste
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
7.) DPS Nukes - take away our old dots, turn them into nukes like Bite of the Empress line (?)
8.) Beastlord Mitigation boost
9.) Pet Survivability issues
10.) Aura for beastlords / New SE line that has added END regen, maybe new AoS as well (?)
In no particular order this is what I've seen that seems to be most important, these aren't set in stone thou.
Quote from: Mewzee on May 16, 2007, 07:50:09 AM
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements
---- Couldn't agree more this spell has become lack luster at best
2.) Muada's Mending needs to be upgraded to be able to have poison/disease/curse cures to be in line with Ranger single target heal/cure spell Potamid Salve.
---- Rangers actually have a Heal = to Muada's Mending plus has Pomitade Save which is a heal / cure poison/disease / Curse we should be at least equal to them in this.
3.) Raid Utility
---- Definitely need a raid utility and not a fero / SE bot
4.) New Slow / Fix Steeltrap Jaws better than what it is
---- I think we definitely need a new slow or a debuff to make our slow land faster
5.) Group Haste
---- Nice utility but not something i would want to give up another ability for it
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
---- once again be nice but honestly why is it in top 10 ? SoE has said they plan to do it and it really isn't a major class issue.
7.) DPS Nukes - take away our old dots, turn them into nukes like Bite of the Empress line (?)
---- our DoTs are useless if they don't pass a weak form of malo our way this line of spells is basically worthless for us as a class. Definitely like to see more for the Bite of the Empress Line.
8.) Beastlord Mitigation boost
---- Couldn't agree more a melee base class with the mitigation of a caster? what are they thinking only thing that even gives a chance is avoidance and defensive AA's.
9.) Pet Survivability issues
---- Probally the Biggest issue that is backed by every pet class out there they need to figure out a way to make them more of a tool and not a liability on a raid where the name has a AE ramp.
10.) Aura for beastlords / New SE line that has added END regen, maybe new AoS as well (?)
---- They took the Beast Fero Aura and put it for sale on the Campfires and Guild banners we will never see this as a spell. SE needs alittle more of a Kick End be a nice touch but i doubt we will ever see it since they basically broke the Endurance regen spells. AoS has also become somewhat lack luster to really impact a raids mana pool as a whole you really need to chain 2-3 MGB's to have a effect that isn't really feasible for the most part.
In no particular order this is what I've seen that seems to be most important, these aren't set in stone thou.
One thing I am amazed i haven't seen mentioned and something that really could use addressing is some form of Jolt such as the Ranger Jolting kick to reduce our hate since we only have one form of agro reduction and its only good once every 8 mins.
Theres nothing really new here that hasnt been done to death before.
Fero - no one can agree here what to do with it, devs have posted they want to fix it but they dont know what to do about it either, because it is "too hard" to do a quick fix.
Bst mitigation - last beta was a discussion about it, end result devs say we are where they want us. Recently on eqforum dev stated again that we are where they want us.
Dots - most people are of opinion not to delete old ones, just not give any new ones. And this is because they are weak DPS and of situational use. If our dots more closely resembled a viable dps solution then the only problem would be the duration of them in the modern short term combat.
I'm actaully happy with the poison dot. It expires just before my slow does, so when it wears off, I know I need to recast slow.
I'd like to see the iksar warder fixed. It's been broken for how many years now?
1. Raid Utility
Whilst we are solid dps now I would prefer to have some extra utility that benefits other people but not at the expense of everything else.
2. Slow / Mitigation / Solo ability
(three things all relating to another)
Slow seems to be getting phased out as it has been said it has decreasing returns every expansion, mobs are hitting harder and with the change in the con system it has affected our ability to solo. I'd love for SoE to either rework slows to be effective (would have to change the entire game mechanic) or alternatively look at how Bst mitigation works. With the new expansion AC values are going to be higher so this will affect us even more.
3. Pet Survivability
Promised mending did a huge amount to help with this, mod2's would be excellent and I liked the suggestion of hard linking these to the actual summoning boon items.
4. Fero
Generally what everyone else has said, not just an increase in mobs AC as a quick fix.
5. Perfection Line
Would like this to have at least some of the power it used to back on Xegony raids. I rarely use this anymore on raids and prefer to use MGB for SE's
6. Haste
Definitely longer duration single target or what i'd really like is a group version. Haste value doesn't need to increase, just duration.
7. Pet models
Being an iksar bst i've gone the last 3-4 years with a broken pet....wouldn't mind SoE finally getting round to fixing it up and maybe even a new model.
8. Poison nuke line
I really enjoyed getting Bite of the Empress, I expect that SoE will introduce a full line of similar poison based nukes for us. But I would like to see some more of this, especially due to its resist mod
1. DPS
Those claiming we are good or even ok dps now need to learn how to parse...
We are decent DPS especially over a long fight its not uncommon to be over 1k DPS on short fights ialso ts all how you play and the tools you put into use. Not to say that we are not falling behind some other classes lets face it we didnt get Double Attack as a skill till 71 and then it is only 5 skill points per level where other classes get it innately at much lower levels like teens.
Quote from: Jili on May 16, 2007, 06:42:10 PM
1. DPS
Those claiming we are good or even ok dps now need to learn how to parse...
We'd be decent dps with more utility. With our current level of raid utility, we're lame dps. One needs to increase to bring us back into balance (pref. w/o breaking group/solo play).
If we are going to consolidate this post and use it to show to devs as the things we as a community want to see, I would like to reiterate a few things and get some more discussion flowing. I really believe we should pick the "battles" that we have a chance of winning. I am not saying I would not like to see some of the changes talked about, just that it may be counter productive to fight for those ones. The main one everyone talks about and would be a good fit for us is Endurance Regen. The devs have stated a few times (if I can find some of the posts later I will link to them.) that they are not going to add endurance regen. So if we keep asking for that we will be ignored by the devs and they may overlook other ideas we have that otherwise may be implemented. I feel the same way about asking for more then tweaking to our particular pet slow, let the "main slowing classes" be the champion for those changes they will more then likely be listened to more about it anyway, plus it leaves us out of the line of fire to step on any of those classes toes. Mitigation is kind of the same problem, devs have said this is where we want you. I also remember reading posts from a dev recently (once again if i can find the links I will add them) that we were informed wrong from devs that we are on the same ac softcap returns as druids. From what I have actually heard (this I have not confirmed it though) we have a better return over softcap then rangers do and some of my guild rangers have actually been mentioning it to me a little upset cause they feel I can tank better then them. So I would be very hesitant as approaching our mitigation as a top issue at least at this time till we have strong parses showing where we feel a change needs made.
The one fero idea i heard lately that someone mentioned that after more thought I really like the idea is to make it like Fukiture Weave (sp?) where we cast the spell and it gives us an item with charges and then we can cast those charges on people. My main point being if we pursue more ideas like that instead of things that have already met opposition we may get a better response.
Now to Jili, why not try being constructive instead of negative. If there are some of us saying that our DPS has increased and it's not as bad as we once thought, try asking why we see that instead of just a one line negative post. Also referring to what I stated in my first post, depending on where you are in the game things may be different for you and if that is the case then that may be something else show the devs and another item we can work on getting changed but telling us we need to learn to parse will not help your issues get attention.
Jili- This is in my opinion but we have got a couple decent DPS upgrades over the last few expansions and are not doing that bad. I'm not an overly geared bst since I stopped raiding at qvic level, about what is available out there today by groups. When soloing I hit 450dps before I got bite, which I just finally got the faction to buy. So now I'll have to figure out what my dps is, oh and I've never got the pet dd from DoN.
The dev saying we have a higher return over the cap then rangers is I believe wrong. During this patch message http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=96992 it was stated:
*** Player Characters ***
- The AC cap and the returns over the cap for rangers and berserkers has been slightly increased.
In the discussions after that I seem to recall a dev stating that the return over the soft cap was brought to near knight levels. I don't think bst or druids are anywhere near that.
Anyway Perriinn is right, no reason to be asking for stuff that the devs have continously said aint happening.
Quote from: Mewzee on May 16, 2007, 07:50:09 AM
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements
2.) Muada's Mending needs to be upgraded to be able to have poison/disease/curse cures to be in line with Ranger single target heal/cure spell Potamid Salve.
3.) Raid Utility
4.) New Slow / Fix Steeltrap Jaws better than what it is
5.) Group Haste
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp
7.) DPS Nukes - take away our old dots, turn them into nukes like Bite of the Empress line (?)
8.) Beastlord Mitigation boost
9.) Pet Survivability issues
10.) Aura for beastlords / New SE line that has added END regen, maybe new AoS as well (?)
In no particular order this is what I've seen that seems to be most important, these aren't set in stone thou.
This is a good list. This is also the most united I've felt in a long time. It feels good.
Edit: this list is a pretty good framework. No one wants to ask for something we cant get, but it's ok to ask for something. we need it. remember, no one "needs" anything, but other classes have gotten, and gotten plenty. If we fall further behind it's our fault for not asking, not the devs
Ok here was the statement then the dev response.
"Yes bsts are on the same mitigation at druids, but we tank better than druids because of other skills. The AC cap is around 1800 or so, best can tell."
Ghost - of Maddoc's response
No, they are not.
Beastlords have a both a higher soft-cap and a higher soft-cap multiplier -- I don't have time to explain the whole system right now, but suffice to say, beastlords are definitely better in that respect.
You can find the post here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=109796
There was a bunch of info in the post and I would have to re-read it to comment on more.
The compiled list Mewzee put up is a good start. And I know she said in no particular order, but for the sake of order it would be nice to see the first 5 along these lines as I feel they are the ones that need work the most:
1. Raid Utility
2. Ferocity
3. Pet Survivability
4. Cures
5. DPS/Nukes
The rest, I'm not even sure need an order really. New pet models aren't an issue as a class, as it has nothing to do with our role as a class. Mitigation is something they don't want to touch, and is mainly wishful thinking to me. The only thing I can see for slow is a direct upgrade, as in a resist check change up from -30. It's obvious they don't want to give us a debuff and I wouldn't want them to anyways. Group haste would be great, and as much as I'd like to think it's a possibility.. it most likely won't be. It deserves to be on the list though, somewhere, but not in the top 5. Perriinn is right, we need to pick battles we think we have a chance at. The list right there I believe there is a chance at, some things they'd be willing to take a look at atleast.
About the cure/heal. Minohten is our heal and shouldn't be touched, but a new spell should be added similar to potameid. Rangers get two spells - Sunderock Springwater and Potameid Salve, two different lines.
As for the DPS issue, and somewhat of a response to Jili. Our DPS isn't in bad shape, and I think the one thing they could do it help it a bit would be double attack. With upgrades such as the werewolves, things are better. As it is, I consider us very lucky to be paired with monks, which gives us access to better weapons (non-lore h2h). Don't go saying we can't do DPS though, it's very negative and actually far from the truth. I usually parse in the 1000-1500 range and on some burns, I have come in close to 1700 (4-5min range). It's all about how our tools are used and in a smart order. I use 2.5 and Warfists, nothing high-end TSS really and I can pull through well enough. This is an issue I don't believe they will touch, but will upgrade upon with the werewolf line, growl line, etc. when new expansions come along. Honestly though, I think they know what the beastlord can do and know we are capable of DPS in line with rangers (which is where I think they want us, 1-1.5k range), even though it is not as easy as a ranger does it. Our DPS is split up so much that even discarding one area will give you the illusion that beastlord DPS is in bad shape.
I havent really gone over this list yet. I use to keep up with tast on it but this is more or less directed at Jili. Im too lazy to look through your posts to see what lvl you are or what aa's you currently have.
Me, I have rake, feral swipe, DoD pet (still working on Katta faction for new one). My atk buffed is usually over 2k. It is not uncommon for me to do a 2k hit with feral or 1k hits with rake.
I do parse and come close to what some of the other bsties get. So dps isnt a issue unless you are below the level. Like I said I'm too lazy to look to see if you ever posted your level before.
Post a mag if ya can, I'm bad for not keeping mine up to date (dont feel like paying for the services anyways), maybe we can help out to make ya better.
Quote from: Jkal_Shihar on May 17, 2007, 10:59:40 AM
I havent really gone over this list yet. I use to keep up with tast on it but this is more or less directed at Jili. Im too lazy to look through your posts to see what lvl you are or what aa's you currently have.
Me, I have rake, feral swipe, DoD pet (still working on Katta faction for new one). My atk buffed is usually over 2k. It is not uncommon for me to do a 2k hit with feral or 1k hits with rake.
I do parse and come close to what some of the other bsties get. So dps isnt a issue unless you are below the level. Like I said I'm too lazy to look to see if you ever posted your level before.
Post a mag if ya can, I'm bad for not keeping mine up to date (dont feel like paying for the services anyways), maybe we can help out to make ya better.
A rogue/zerker/wizard can do huge dps figures, absolutely dwarfing ours at any level of raiding. They bring no less utility to a raid (I'd say all are more useful than a beastlord...at least more useful than a second beastlord).
Jili's also 10x better geared than you are, fyi. You have a long ways to go before you max out group gear, Jili's in at least Deathknell gear.
Zerk geared with epic 2.0 not much of any other effects and mods, 300 AA DPS around 1700
BST epic 2, 3/4 maxed mods 1500 AA, DPS around 1200
The zerk will improve hugely the bst will not.
The zerk will add huge raid DPS with war cry and aura, the bst will not.
Neither class can shed agro.
Why is our DPS so low in raid environment when we get beaten by such a significant amount. Our raid utility is so called paragon every 72 mins, which has depreciated in usefullness on every expansion since it got released.
due to our lack of raid utility our dps IS severly lacking.
Khauruk please dont rip me apart me apart because I asked Jili a simple question. I have no clue what there level is, what gear there wearing so for you to come at me like that is uncalled for.
I was being polite in that I do raid, I agree with the majority here on our dps. Its the way Jili came in with that one line that pretty much upsetted alot of us.
Quote from: Jkal_Shihar on May 17, 2007, 11:56:22 PM
Khauruk please dont rip me apart me apart because I asked Jili a simple question.
I was being polite in that I do raid, I agree with the majority here on our dps. Its the way Jili came in with that one line that pretty much upsetted alot of us.
That wasn't me being rude, or ripping you apart. They were simple statements of fact (though HP-wise, I guess 4-5x would be more accurate, though w/ mods, I stand by 10x). They may have ripped apart your assertion, but not you yourself.
As far as you raiding, your magelo only shows one raid acquired item that I noticed...I'd assume that was from a pick-up raid. Having raided a couple months in Anguish-ish content (assuming you got Yarusha on rot from an early raid), I wouldn't call you an experienced raider.
However, lines like........
Quote from: Jkal_Shihar on May 17, 2007, 10:59:40 AM
I havent really gone over this list yet.
Im too lazy to look through your posts to see what lvl you are or what aa's you currently have.
I do parse and come close to what some of the other bsties get. So dps isnt a issue unless you are below the level. Like I said I'm too lazy.....
.....make me fairly unsympathetic to your views (keyword: lazy).
Jili and most of the people here aren't concerned with Beastlord dps as a top-10 list issue simply in relation to overall beastlord dps. It's going to be in relation to other classes.
QuoteIt is not uncommon for me to do a 2k hit with feral or 1k hits with rake.
a 'not uncommon' 2k hit or 1k rake is not 'good dps' in itself...rake plus jagged claws comes out to about 90dps (which doesn't scale with gear/progression). At the group level which you seem to be at, that is a fairly large amount. But, when toons are parsing up to **3,000** dps in short burn fights and we're unable to come anywhere near that, 90dps doesn't add up to much.
As far as my version of our top-10, I'm PMing that directly to developers/other class CCs.
I repeat - that wasn't me being rude. Just factual. And not too "lazy" to do a quick glance through jili's previous posts to see his/her progression level (dp/dk as of last fall, btw).
Like I stated before, I was to lazy to bother to look. It was early in the morning and like most mornings I was waiting on my daughter to get ready for school so I hopped on here to see what was cooking.
As for my mag, I dont believe in updating it on a day to day basis. I have a few things I have gotten from raids along with doing anguish on a weekly basis.
Ive taken more leave of absense from the game then anyone I can think of only because of burn out. So whether stating by fact or not and I really hate when I'm just a post above that it has to be broken up into another post by quoting I find really irrating.
And if you reread that first one I posted you will see that I said I am bad for not keeping my mag up to date :-D
To Jkal. I am a 75 bst with Mostly TSS + DP/DK gear and 1700ish + AA. If you do a search on AB server you should find my magelo under Jililuokta (My full name). It is not up to date though, now I have Letharhammer and some other upgrades from TSS in addition.
Bst dps may be ok for grouping but during raids we are very bad off compared to the real dps classes. We are not the only class with this problem though, I rarely get beat in dps from any of our two rangers. And mages seem to parse a bit low as well.
The problem is really that there is a way to big gap between the top 3 (berserker, rogue and wizard) and the rest of the raid.
Will let you know some of the parseresults from both a 3-4 min fight, and a 10-15 min one.
The % in the back is my damage compared to top parsing dps class. (These are fights where I can use my warder + pets, and they are added to my damage)
290407 Veldyns shade, 3:53 fight. Top Zerker deals 595947 damage as I do 325887. (55%)
040407 Veldyns shade, 3:15 fight. Top Zerker deals 534006 damage as I do 207315. (38%)
060507 Veldyns shade, 3,58 fight. Top Zerker deals 535859 damage as I do 296812. (55%)
040407 Lethar 2.0, 12:57 fight. Top Rogue deals 1068006 damage as I do 708353. (66%)
100407 Lethar 2.0, 14:27 fight. Top Rogue deals 1102288 damage as I do 696938. (63%)
060507 Lethar 2.0, 11.45 fight. Top Rogue deals 1052261 damage as I do 632167. (60%)
We have 2 Zerkers, 6 Rogues, 5 Wizards, and 3 monks that regularly beat me in dps during raids that puts me low down the dps list.
Comparing the dps-utility from the top 3 dps classes to the utility of SE + Paragon + low dps, I see no room for a Beastlord in a highend guild. I think I would rather get an extra dps class in the raid and kick all Bsts. (Especially thinking of the dps oriented Solteris)
The reason we fall behind every expansion is our multifaceted ways of dealing damage. A 10% upgrade in nuke focus helps a wizard more then us. A better ratio on weapons will help a Rogue/Zerker more then us. DPS AA's will help the pure classes more then us.
Giving us some non scaling disc (Rake) or a nonscaling pet helps a tad for that expansion, but we still fall behind every expansion and has done so since PoP.
Some may think that doing 50-65% of top damage is not that bad. But then all three classes have more utility then we have.
/Jililuokta, 75 beastlord from Antonious Bayle server.
I would like to see aos have an end regen component.
or
Give beastslords and aura to increase end regen
or
Give beastlords an aura that makes those affected non kos to animals
or
Give beastlords an aura or two that affects all pets in a certain radius.
I would like to see us be able to have our warder /shield a particular target
I would like to see us get some improved cures.
I actually hated them giving us the poison nuke in tbs. I liked to think only having the cold nuke line was somewhat class defining.
Customizing our warders would be nice. (not practical at all but fun none the less)
Name, color, maybe give them some armor appearance if they have a muzzle on or something.
Change the Dog whistle to call all barbarian warders in the zone to you (just kidding)
I am fairly content with the beastlord class as a whole.
Kdor Unhcegila of Valorguard
The Nameless
Jili i have a question. Are the bers rogs put in dps type groups? And are you put in dps type groups? And lastly are you parseing yourself? Why i ask is b/c more than likely the bers and rogs are in dps groups and you aren't. The thing ive found that putting a bst in a dps group helps our dps far far more than any other class. And if you aren't parseing yourself you'll be missing your pets procs, i know its small in comparisen but its there. Of course i could be totally off and your parses are totally accurate.
I am in agreement with Jili on dps. Because of our links to many other classes it will be difficult to improve beastlords without having the other classes get it first.
1.) Ferocity needs changes / improvements. In the past i would have agreed on this, however through time i find that improving this spell starts with a gamewide fix that will involve lots of work for the devs and most likely will not happen or if so will only be bandaids on new expansions. In the last stratics chat even the devs admitted it was a lackluster spell. To even get a group version of this, i really hope it does not take away from something else we could really use.
<Brannoc> *Kernos* Any hope of a group version of the beastlord ferocity spell and any plans to make it useful again?
<Prathun> Because of the diminishing returns on offense, and the fact that most other melee increase effects are capped, don't work for all classes, or don't stack, it is difficult to improve upon Ferocity (or similar spells).
<Prathun> I can look into introducing a group version of previously single target spells, as I did with the beastlord mini-focus in Serpent's Spine.
so great they are going to give us a group version of fero that does very little =(. I would not suggest pushing this as even a #1 issue.
2.) Need more raid utility other than SE/MGB AoS --------DPS is raid utility btw---------- and imho should be #1, #2, #3 and so on
3.) Pet DPS/Mitigation of dmg/buffs -
Lets face it there is no real way to easily fix this. If we were to get a pet that would be able to survive raid mobs, It would be game breaking for groups. Pet would most likely be overpowered and heavily exploited.
4.) New Slow? In order for us to get a new slow most likely improvements must be given to Shammys/Enchanters. We are not going to get a 75% or even a 70% slow. At best we will get a 65% slow that will be less resisted.
5.) Group Haste ... This here is more a less a convenience spell, but not really needed
6.) New Pet Models for all beast races, and the gator warder for trolls revamp----- how would this make beastlords better?
7) Cures--We are long overdue for some form of cure.
If i had to reanalyze the list i would make it look like this
1) Raid utility through ---DPS----
2) Group utility through ----DPS-----
3) Keep our slows the same, just give us more ----DPS----- so we can kill them faster
4) Keep our pet dps same just give us more -----DPS------ since half the time they are either dead or not useful in raids due to liability and even if our pet dies, at least we can still output decent dmg so who cares bout pet mitigation.
5) Cures, group haste nice to have however Immunization X (potion) and Antidote X (potion) and Celerity X (potion) can all do about the same. I would hate to lose a valid upgrade to anything i can buy at the bazaar and honestly, i would rather click from my belt than waste a spell gem.
6) As for pet name change, pet color change, (note: with exception to iksar pets who does have a valid need for a fix), Pet make-up etc. etc. .....Again i would hate to give up a serious upgrade for something like this.
1) Pet mitigation
2) longer lasting haste
3)Better DPS, I'd like to see us have innate double attack with AA giving a chance to triple attack, may not be in the cards, but /shrug, I dont use a warder 95% of the time on raids so maybe a "reclaim energy" type spell like mages have, we draw power from our pet, it banishes/kills the warder but we gain strength from it.
4)Cures-would help,especially when there arent alot of Shammys on
5)Better nukes, I like Bite alot, but the rest, especially in a raid setting arent much damage at all.
6)set duration invis, I posted in the rants forum about this recently, its stupid for us NOT to have this.
7) I'd like for us to have a clicky aura like almost all other classes got, not a huge deal but it would be nice.
8)Mitigation for us, the devs apparently think we are where we should be, I hope thats not the case, our mitigation for a melee class is poor to say the least.
I think one problem is that in an exp group, a Bst is good to have, able to do a little of everything, so alot of people think that carries over to raiding. The fact that they have chats with the devs and people bring up fero changes strikes me as strange. I think we as a class have MUCH more important issues that need attention than the buff that I only cast on rogues.
To Iaissez
Yes the Zerker and Rogues parsing top damage are in dps groups with Zerker/Bard/Rog/Monk most of the time I would guess. I normally have a Shaman in group that keeps Champ + Panther going. Asked to have a bard in group for testing last Shade but didnt improve much dps wise (There was no Shaman availible that fight).
Will ask RL to put me with Shaman/Bard/Zerker/Rouge/Monk next time to see if anything improves but I doubt it will change much.
WTB Fero as an aura so we get put in dps grp's. Thanks to the serverwide channel for this. was not my idea
Fero + haste aura is already coded in the spell file (don't recall name) from TSS beta. Very nice, easily accomplished, would solve our haste request. Even though fero returns are teh sukc right now, it would be at least mana/thought/hassle free for a group.
Oh well...hasn't been 'found.' /sigh.
I wouldn't think we would get a haste aura, because bards already have something like that (Is it overhaste?) and we're not really the best in that department. Fero on an aura, however, would be a lot better than what it is now, even if the returns are shabby. It saves us mana, it uses the buff, and it most likely gets us into the DPS groups where we can do a lot more benefit than without one.
I think the idea is worth pushing. The only drawbacks I see are other classes complaining about getting an aura as well, or the devs cry havoc that the buff in aura form is too overpowering.
And I think the idea of Fero as an aura came from Xacer or Lenoth in the serverwide channel. I'm not sure which, it may have been both, but that's where the credit should be directed.
Quote from: Khauruk on May 22, 2007, 03:20:24 AM
Fero + haste aura is already coded in the spell file (don't recall name) from TSS beta. Very nice, easily accomplished, would solve our haste request. Even though fero returns are teh sukc right now, it would be at least mana/thought/hassle free for a group.
Oh well...hasn't been 'found.' /sigh.
That is one of the campfires or flags from TBS isnt it? I remember a few asking for it last beta when we had really useless spells but getting no feedback on the matter.
I think Swampfunk raised it at the last Dev Chat also but dont think he got any sort of response.
It is a Banner focus and a campfire focus so the coding is there for it I think this would definitly make us wanted in alot of situations for a dps group on raids.
Quote from: Rilelil on May 22, 2007, 07:06:56 AM
It is a Banner focus and a campfire focus so the coding is there for it I think this would definitly make us wanted in alot of situations for a dps group on raids.
The banner / campfire fero, is an increase to double attack, not the fero spell we get.
It's an interesting idea, if they add our fero + a dmg modifier to the aura, it would be pretty nice.
If the dont add anything and make fero 250ish atk with some sta and saves and make it an aura, I think this is a HUGE fix for us.
Not only will we get into dps grp's to make our dps stronger, we will have a raid utility that we currently lack.
Regular resists have lost thier value with many mobs having -500 + modifiers
250 ATK will still not add much dps, especially to those sitting at 2500
62 sta over cap would have to stack with shammy and other stuff, but wouldnt add much hp.
Exactly why would this be a huge fix and add any utility at all?
If you had said give an aura that makes pets immune to AE rampage, now that would be huge and a worthwhile raid utility. That ability actually scales.
Quote from: Hanelce on May 22, 2007, 10:19:33 AM
The banner / campfire fero, is an increase to double attack, not the fero spell we get.
It's an interesting idea, if they add our fero + a dmg modifier to the aura, it would be pretty nice.
No the fero + haste aura he was referring to gave haste and attk http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=9018&source=Live (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=9018&source=Live) was the one discussed in TBS beta.
Our dps is far from lacking at the moment on most long fights i out damage a LOT of our current dps class's if the fight is longer then 5 min this is what beastlords are about we are not a burn type of class we realy shine on the long term. We have a few beastlords in ctv 2 of witch are prity well geared and up to pair at the level we raid gear wise and when im given a dps group on things like lether2 is when i tear it up, hell last night the only people that beat me where our best geared rogue two wizys and our zerker < we raid with 5 rogues and 5-7 wizys some nights> so saying we are in need of some dps upgrades dosent seem right to me unless 90% of my guild slacks off and im getting high on the parses because i dont. Not to say i wouldent turn down some dps upgrades but i just dont think its a huge problem once you have everything in order gear wise and play your class to its fullest.
Quote from: jitathab on May 22, 2007, 12:40:06 PM
Regular resists have lost thier value with many mobs having -500 + modifiers
250 ATK will still not add much dps, especially to those sitting at 2500
62 sta over cap would have to stack with shammy and other stuff, but wouldnt add much hp.
Exactly why would this be a huge fix and add any utility at all?
WEll lets see adding 250 atk to 5 other toons, resists are still a powerful thing and was a large part of why the spell was so powerful during POP. Not to mention saving us mana.
The point is, if we cant all agree on something we get nothing. So Why not push something good that can affect us in a positive way?
Quote from: Epee on May 22, 2007, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: jitathab on May 22, 2007, 12:40:06 PM
Regular resists have lost thier value with many mobs having -500 + modifiers
250 ATK will still not add much dps, especially to those sitting at 2500
62 sta over cap would have to stack with shammy and other stuff, but wouldnt add much hp.
Exactly why would this be a huge fix and add any utility at all?
WEll lets see adding 250 atk to 5 other toons, resists are still a powerful thing and was a large part of why the spell was so powerful during POP. Not to mention saving us mana.
The point is, if we cant all agree on something we get nothing. So Why not push something good that can affect us in a positive way?
Not saying that the aura is a bad idea, but pushing for something.. that hardly anyone thinks is an upgrade, isn't a good thing. Jithathab was right when he said the resist mods aren't great because of the -500 resist check. Unless you have the tier 5 don, then you are not going to resist the AE, even with max resists.
An aura with pet immunity to ae ramp, or fero + overhaste .. or fero + damage mod, would be somewhere I would want to push. The AE ramp wouldn't get us put in the dps group (like some are wanting) but it would give us more of a utility, to other pet classes. For those of us wanting more and more dps, the latter two would be the ones that we should push for. I like the idea of the Fero + overhaste, *if* it stacked with our Frenzy of Spirit. Just for that 2ish mins we would be able to burst hard core.
Just a little fyi while on my info hunt today for ways to improve fero (check fero changes thread for what i came up with) i ran across spirit frenzy and turns out its not over haste just max haste and 250 attack nothing more so prity much if you have a 45% haste item and chanter haste all spirit frenzy dose is add 250 attack since your at max haste all ready. Here is the raw info showing it.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3289&source=Live
I't is one of the aa ability's im hopping to have extended upon for the next expansion to have it made usefull agean funny how we have so many things that have been out grown and arnt to useful anymore to us and only gets worse. I may not be tasten or our beastlord CC but im sick of some of our stuff being the way it is and im working to do my best to gather what ever info i can to at least help solve some of it.
Wow I love the Fero AURA idea...that would be cool....and yes we need to decide more or less which direction we'd like to go with it if we'd like to reccomend the idea to the devs. Big props to the beasts who came up with that :)
Also I agree with Spirit Frenzy AA, I loved that AA back in the day and I still use it but I would like to see either a small revamp on the AA or a new improved line of that AA that is more useful than the current one.
QuoteOur dps is far from lacking at the moment on most long fights i out damage a LOT of our current dps class's if the fight is longer then 5 min this is what beastlords are about we are not a burn type of class we realy shine on the long term. We have a few beastlords in ctv 2 of witch are prity well geared and up to pair at the level we raid gear wise and when im given a dps group on things like lether2 is when i tear it up, hell last night the only people that beat me where our best geared rogue two wizys and our zerker < we raid with 5 rogues and 5-7 wizys some nights> so saying we are in need of some dps upgrades dosent seem right to me unless 90% of my guild slacks off and im getting high on the parses because i dont. Not to say i wouldent turn down some dps upgrades but i just dont think its a huge problem once you have everything in order gear wise and play your class to its fullest.
Sometimes I parse high also, but usually, Im very far down the list. Sometimes, Jagged Claws hits for a 7k crit, but it isnt something I can count on. When a class is pretty much unversally recognized as not being a good DPS class, you gotta figure its true. Although you may not be willing to accept it, the fact is, our DPS is lacking in a raid setting. If this wasnt the case as a class we'd be in greater demand. If you look at recruiting sections for a very large percentage of raiding guilds, guess which class they arent recruiting? Thats right, beastlords.
I looked through a few of my guild's parses, we currently have 2 active bl's and we finish DPS wise right about the same spot every time. We beat bards, ench and few druids who are backup healers. When you think about how many classes are ahead of us on DPS, its not surprising we arent in demand as raiders.
This is my magelo, just to prove it isnt a gear issue. http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1014857
The other active BL uses 2.0 and Brumnal Fists of whirling sleet as his weapons, he is about the same as I am gear-wise.
Only problem with adding dps is that we have no way to drop hate. As it is now, I can steal hate on the raid if I'm not careful enough. I'd like to see us get a better defensive discipline or maybe roar of thunder knocked down to 45 second recast or so. That is assuming we do in fact gain dps over basic upgrades to crap we already have.
Dasquid on 80% of our fights when im not doing other things that take me out of the fight i parse in the top ten if you do not belive me i can post 10 parse from the same mob to show you its not a random thing. Looking at your magelo im not one to nitpick because i know im missing a det pres (damn bst only ring wont drop grrrr) but seeing as your gear is very nice your missing any type of a fero item and a posien focus two things that could be a good jump in dps the fero item especially.
The point of what i said wasent to say we don't need help because the other beastlord's in my guild one of witch has a better wepon set up then me tend to parse way lower so im sure they could use some help. The point was that while we could use some help we are far from horablely off on our dps area when a beastlord can out damage a rogue a wizy and a monk consistently on most long fights when there gear is on pair with each other i don't think we need a huge dps jump <this is adding me+warder+rage pet since these are all things we bring to a fight and thats how we should be parsed imo>.
What dose bug me is the work involved in doing so from just getting every last little bit of dps out of our class to how much ''fun'' it is to juggle melee focus's and caster focus to try and keep up to date with everything. We have to work much harder then anllmost any other class as far as im aware to do the best we can.
If you are top ten then you don't have 10 dps classes in guild or they are slacking horribly.
Also if you are parsing with Yalp you can not add BotM to your dps since that is already counted into your total.
We normaly field 5-8 wizerds, 1-2 zerkers, 5-6 rogues and 2-4 monks every raid and no i hardly ever look at the dps part of most parse's since anyone can do great dps with a few big fast nukes at the end of a fight and get great dps i look at raw damage done its the most fair way to compair parse.
I agree its not about the dps but rather the dmg done. But higher dps useally results in higher dmg.
Quote from: Jili on May 25, 2007, 02:37:15 PM
If you are top ten then you don't have 10 dps classes in guild or they are slacking horribly.
Also if you are parsing with Yalp you can not add BotM to your dps since that is already counted into your total.
Please explain. BotM is added to your total and also separated out by pet? I do use Yalp, but I don't understand what you are saying.
This is the top 10 list i made up a few months after TSS, obviously alot of the things on it are still problems :/ Steeltrap has been "fixed" in that they added extra charges, and theyve given us mammoth hide guard (with a uselessly long cast time :/) so the 9 that arent steeltrap still apply imo
1: Savage Ferocity:
Attack at the mid to high end (1250+ atk) sees significantly decreasing gains, such that the benefits of this spell really aren't worth the huge cost anymore. It's a shame because this spell line used to be a great limited but powerful single target buff.
Solution: stacking accuracy mod or other offensive mod (not DA because that would conflict with ranger buffs and its essentially capped for some)
2: Aura of Spirit
Mana and health pools have grown so much faster than the paragon line's upgrades that the spell is no longer noticed by many. In addition, ooc regen has further trivialized the spell by destroying its secondary use as a downtime reducer.
Solution: Increase its duration or reduce the recast.
3: Taste of Blood
Doesn't stack with Unparalleled Voracity or Growl of the Panther. Pet doesn't get kills because it's weak. You usually don't pull fast enough to benefit at all.
Solution: significantly increase duration and damage mod, make it stack.
4: Animals
All animals not on a specific faction before TSS were friendly to beastlords, druids, and rangers. TSS animals are only friendly to druids and rangers.
Solution: add beastlords to tree-hugger faction
5: Haste
Potions of Haste X last longer than celerity and do the same 50% haste. All other hasters have gotten upgrades.
Solution: make celerity's duration scale by level ~(15 mins at level 30 -> 45 minutes at level 75)
6: Cures
Beastlords used to be pretty good at curing. We got the best cure disease spell, but we've never since gotten any kind of upgrade to our cures. Rangers have gotten every single cure they get at a higher level than beastlords get that cure, but with TSS, rangers just got a cure curse spell, pushing them far ahead of where they have always cured.
Solution: Give all druid and shaman hybrids appropriate cure upgrades at appropriate levels.
7: Mitigation
During luclin, monk and beastlord mitigation was reduced. Since then, monk mitigation was returned to its original value. Several other classes have seen mitigation boosts, as well. Beastlords still mitigate like druids.
Solution: Restore beastlord mitigation to its original level.
8: Steeltrap Jaws
This spell is bugged. If your pet has multiple procs and both steeltrap and another proc succeed at a proc check on the same round, only the other proc occurs, but a steeltrap charge is wasted. Also, this spell does not report resists/fades to the user since it's pet based.
Solutions:
Best solution: Ask code to fix the proccing bug and add the ability to report resists/fades of pet based procs and appropriate filters.
Realistic solution: double the charges on steeltrap to make up for bug wasted charges and add a recourse to the pet which does nothing other than last exactly the same duration as the slow
9: Pet Survivability
Pet survivability is a bit better, but its still pretty much a joke to try to use a pet in alot of raid encounters.
Solution: reintroduce mammoth hide guard (or equivalent) for all 3 pet classes, make it stack with spellbreaker's guard.
10: Raid Utility
This is a bit of a Meta-Problem. As problems with many of our core abilities have appeared and increased with with time and inattention, general beastlord raid utility has declined proportionally. Some would prefer that you invent some new utility and give it to us, and while that would be great, it'd probably be sufficient to fix our existing problems.
Solution: If fero, perfection, cures, and mitigation are solved, this will be solved also.
Point 7 has been proven wrong. Again here the relevant quote from Maddoc about that issue:
QuoteThe initial comparison was between beastlords and druids, not beastlords and monks.
The post that you dredged up (by Kavhok, as I recall) is an accurate account of the events that took place up to that point, though it is at least a couple years old, so it may not be 100% accurate now.
The data that I'm looking at right now says that monks and beastlords have the exact same softcap, which is slightly (roughly 7%) higher than druids. The data also shows druids as having the lowest soft-cap modifier, followed by beastlords (roughly triple the druids return), and then by monks (roughly double that of beastlords).
That said, there seems to be some discrepancy between that original post and the current data used by the game, which I'll try and see if I can clear up. I did some initial digging and I don't see any changes being made to the ac data for any of those three classes, however... All of this data, which is now conveniently located in a database where I can modify as necessary, used to be hard-coded values and formulas that we couldn't change.
Right now, it looks like the change to bring monks and beastlords up above druids were done prior to us converting all those hard-coded formulas and values into a data driven table, which ultimately means it's not going to be so easy to track down when it changed.
The end result is that it did change at some point, and this is what it's currently at.
Quote from: Denti on June 01, 2007, 06:57:51 PM
Point 7 has been proven wrong. Again here the relevant quote from Maddoc about that issue:
QuoteThe initial comparison was between beastlords and druids, not beastlords and monks.
The post that you dredged up (by Kavhok, as I recall) is an accurate account of the events that took place up to that point, though it is at least a couple years old, so it may not be 100% accurate now.
The data that I'm looking at right now says that monks and beastlords have the exact same softcap, which is slightly (roughly 7%) higher than druids. The data also shows druids as having the lowest soft-cap modifier, followed by beastlords (roughly triple the druids return), and then by monks (roughly double that of beastlords).
That said, there seems to be some discrepancy between that original post and the current data used by the game, which I'll try and see if I can clear up. I did some initial digging and I don't see any changes being made to the ac data for any of those three classes, however... All of this data, which is now conveniently located in a database where I can modify as necessary, used to be hard-coded values and formulas that we couldn't change.
Right now, it looks like the change to bring monks and beastlords up above druids were done prior to us converting all those hard-coded formulas and values into a data driven table, which ultimately means it's not going to be so easy to track down when it changed.
The end result is that it did change at some point, and this is what it's currently at.
We mitigate like crap, and from what I can see, far worse than our overcap return should allow for.
Once (if ever!) I get back in game (or next beta), I'm going to try to do a series of defensive parses...I'm guessing they'll show a return far lower than the numbers are supposed to show. It's bugged, I tell ye (mad cackle)! :)
I would look forward to a new defensive parse to be honest, there are no recent ones around and its a pain to make them, even during beta as you dont have exact values about atk of the test mobs.
Quote from: Denti on June 01, 2007, 06:57:51 PM
Point 7 has been proven wrong. Again here the relevant quote from Maddoc about that issue:
Ok, i withdraw my suggestion for point 7 ~