I've played my Beastlord for a while, mostly solo or duo with a longtime Necro friend. But after 65 level and 200 AA's I can't think of a single thing that makes us the best at anything... Perhaps I've missed something...
Warriors - best meatshields
Pally's - Undead slayers, decent tanks (need upgrades)
SK's - Best meatshield taunt, good pullers
Rangers - Trackers, and best long term DpS/low aggro.. period
Druids - Porting, Damage shields, healing, animal pet charm
Wizards - Best short term DpS, porting
Mages - Strongest pets, Second highest short term DpS, summons items
Clerics - Healing and most useful epic
Monks - Best all around pullers, toss up w/rogue on melee range DpS
Rogues - Best all around corpse draggers, pick locks, toss up w/monk DpS
Necros - FD, Rez, group heal, strong pets, can feed mana to other casters
Bards - Best AE raid/group manaless effects
Enchanter - Best Crowd control, Best Mana regen buffers, Best charm
Shaman - Best buffers, best slower, best debuffer, great DoT's
Beserkers - No idea, not many running around
Beastlords. In raid/group terms I can't think of any role we are required/sought after for. Of the essential group roles, Meatshield, buffer, Slower, CC, Healer, DpS, puller, and tracker. The best we get is 3rd best slower, yet most classes point to us as being "over-powered".
2 sustained pets would be nice, 2nd best group buffer would be nice. Ah but this is a pipe dream... Or am I missing something about our class...
You have a few things a bit out of proportion.
Pallys have the best taunt, sk's are second, and sk's need a bit of help tanking, since they dont get the stun-mitigation boost that pallys do.
Rogues are top dps, rangers and monks are quite a bit behind. High-end rangers are doing more melee dps than bow dps now, so they are not the lowest taunt either.
Monks are still not the best pullers, bards still take the top spot, followed by chanters, then clerics, then pallies, then rangers and druids if outdoors. Monks have no way to split more than 2 casters, and if they pull 2 or more, no way to dispatch adds. Bards have lull, mez, charm, highsun, fading memories, eye of zomm (more useful than you can imagine) etc etc.
Chanters are NOT the best mana buffers...bards are. Group Marr is level 61, AoE Marr is 63 and both are 20 mana a tick, VoQ is only 18.
Rangers seem strong DPS-wise because they can get to 59 and get AM3 and EQ then BUY an elemental bow and do good dps....rogues have to LOOT an elemental weapon.
Beastlords are overpowered because we are:
3rd best slower
4th best tank (warriors, sk/pal, ranger/rogue/ber/monk, beastlord, bard, shaman, druid, int caster)
2nd best pet
5th best healer
2nd best long term mana buffer
Best stat buffer
etc etc. We have the most varied spell line up, with powerful spells in many different situations. Its the combination of strong, but not best, abilities that make beasts so strong.
We are best at MGB mana regen over time aka paragon.
Other than that, its mostly enjoying the ride for me.
Wow, this is misinformation
Quote from: XarilokBeastlords are overpowered because we are:
3rd best slower
You started good...
Quote4th best tank (warriors, sk/pal, ranger/rogue/ber/monk, beastlord, bard, shaman, druid, int caster)
Looks like 7th best according to your list...
Quote2nd best pet
Umm.. not counting the 4 Mages pets that are better than ours, at last check, Necro pets were stronger too.
Quote5th best healer
I call a recount! Cleric, Druic, Shaman, Paladin, Ranger... looks like we're 6th as long as you don't count pet heals (and since when do we?).
Quote2nd best long term mana buffer
Define long term :P SD doesnt even last long enough for MGB to refresh, and bardsong can be eternal...
QuoteBest stat buffer
How do you figure? Shaman own us.
Quoteetc etc. We have the most varied spell line up, with powerful spells in many different situations. Its the combination of strong, but not best, abilities that make beasts so strong.
Strong, sure. Overpowered? No way.
Ranger DPS 61-65 is inflated by easy access to Elemental Quality Bows + AM3/EQ. this combo makes them seem to be a powerhouse. In the BoT stage of a Ranger's career, they are. Especially compared to their peers in equivelent bazaar gear.
However, Elemental forward, they fall behind as melee outstrips Archery. In the "high-end" Rangers have the lowest DPS of the Melee/DPS classes. The causes of this are many and will hopefully be worked.
These are but some of the reasons Ive tired of my 5yr affair with my Ranger.
Thus was Mneu born...
Funny how you dont even mention Necros for DPS and druids for Nukes.
With the insane mana regen that top equipped wizards can do they are also best long term DPS.
Beastlords are pretty well rounded around high pop/ele level, after that we fall behind especially in GoD. In the high end were just there for SD/Paragon and thats it, our dps is very low, our usability (stat buff, slow etc) is just not needed because it is subpar as well, our pets fall way behind in terms of power-progression. I dont ask to get shaman slows, monk dps or mage pets, but a small dps upgrade would be nice since that is really the only thing we can do on raids now (except SD of course or paragon).
I don't know about the '2nd best mana' claim
If bards are 1st, enchanters have gotta come before us placing us 3rd- but lets not forget as far as self mana necro's do better, can pump mana to someone just like Paragon as well-
As for our role- we're the guy you choose when the guy you want isn't available. We can pretty much fill any role except that of a cleric.
QuoteBeastlords. In raid/group terms I can't think of any role we are required/sought after for. Of the essential group roles, Meatshield, buffer, Slower, CC, Healer, DpS, puller, and tracker. The best we get is 3rd best slower, yet most classes point to us as being "over-powered".
My gear is far from uber (Im a tad under 5300 hp unbuffed) but I can tank trash mobs in the elementals. I've been group slower for Kod'Taz groups and such too. While the beastlord is not a "required" class for an experience group, we have a variety of tools to bring to a group. My main gripe for grouping is the resist rate we sometimes get on slows. I'd like to see a built in resist adjustment on beastlord slows, or some type of resistance debuff (though not as good as Malosinia). Im sure there are many shaman/enchanters that would object to this, but I say too bad. We're the only slowing class that has to wait until 65 for our best slow (and require a rune or large sum of pp for it), has no clicky slow item in the game, and has no way to debuff resists in order to increase the chance for slow to land. I've gotten 4 and 5 straight resists against trash mobs in BoT before, and it's not really a rare occurance, if you ask me, that's unacceptable.
QuoteChanters are NOT the best mana buffers...bards are. Group Marr is level 61, AoE Marr is 63 and both are 20 mana a tick, VoQ is only 18.
Your example is somewhat flawed. Bards have to give up singing something else in order to sing the mana regeneration songs, plus they have to be near you, if not actually inside your group. In some ways, even Spiritual Dominion is better than the Bard Mana regen songs. You can find a beastlord in PoK, and if he's got SCR3 and some ext buff focus, you can have 1 hour+ of 9 mana/hp per tick, and go about your merry way to solo/group/whatever.
QuoteRogues are top dps, rangers and monks are quite a bit behind.
Rogues arent "top dps" in many situations. They're often out done by wizards/necromancers/charm pets, besides, I'd guess that a Time/GoD equipped monk could out dps a bazaar equipped rogue.
QuoteMonks are still not the best pullers, bards still take the top spot, followed by chanters, then clerics, then pallies, then rangers and druids if outdoors.
I dont recall seeing any enchanters/paladin/rangers/druids pulling on raids ;). Even in an experience group, monks are often more desirable pullers than these other classes, though I wouldnt be at all opposed to them getting some upgrades in this area. Besides, you forgot to add Shadow Knights to that list :P.
QuoteUmm.. not counting the 4 Mages pets that are better than ours
You gotta be kidding me :shock:.
The 50+ Fire pets are a total joke. Their dps sucks, their casting is way too random, and they cant tank for squat.
The earth pet I havent really played with since the pet tuning a few months back (retired my mage), but from what I hear, it still sucks for tanking (mitigation still a bit behind the air pet), and since it has lower DPS than air/water pets, and roots mobs, it's still a garbage pet in many cases (decent for chaining if that's your style I guess, or for ghetto kiting).
That leaves Air/Water/Monster Summoning. The MS pets are nice dps, and the stun is cool, but supposedly they're not much for tanking. The air pet is quite nice all around, and though his base HP are a bit lower than Spirit of Sorsha, he's still a respectable tank for a pet, and has decent dps. The water pet is nice DPS, but a piss poor tank.
So that leaves Ward of Xegony having a relatively small lead over Spirit of Sorsha (both designed as "bread and butter" pets), and MS4/Servant of Marr having situational advantages/disadvantages.
Quoteat last check, Necro pets were stronger too.
Check again sir :P.
Quote4th best tank (warriors, sk/pal, ranger/rogue/ber/monk, beastlord, bard, shaman, druid, int caster)
QuoteLooks like 7th best according to your list...
Beastlords can out aggro a monk/rogue/beserker, and possibly out tank an equally geared ranger (not counting weaponshield), since our avoidance is a bit better, even if hp/ac is lower.
I agree. Comparably equipped/AA'd BL will "out-tank" a Ranger...despite the AC/HP disparity. Better innate avoidance is the key.
Quote from: MneumenthI agree. Comparably equipped/AA'd BL will "out-tank" a Ranger...despite the AC/HP disparity. Better innate avoidance is the key.
That is debatable. I've seen Rangers tank Kod'Taz named. Well until enrage killed him. I doubt I'd be able to do the same. Atleast not without getting a heart attack from worrying I might go splat even with 3 healers spam healling me.
QuoteOther than that, its mostly enjoying the ride for me.
That's me too.
QuoteI agree. Comparably equipped/AA'd BL will "out-tank" a Ranger
Define 'tanking ability' :wink:
We can out-agro a ranger im sure, but we cannot take damage better then a ranger, or any other melee class for that matter, as parses of class defensive capabilities have shown. When it comes to soaking up damage, we are in fact #8, because bards beat us as well. When it come to agro-management, we're prolly at the number 4 or 5 slot.
/hugs
QuoteBeastlords are overpowered because we are:
3rd best slower
4th if you include necros on undead
Quote4th best tank (warriors, sk/pal, ranger/rogue/ber/monk, beastlord, bard, shaman, druid, int caster)
Looks like 8th from your list, and i must say your list doesn't look right. Think bards and shaman can tank better then us. Remember seeing a parse somewhere stating we were only above druids and other pure casters.
Quote2nd best pet
3 of the mages pets are better then our pet and when they fix fire pet im sure it will be as well. Necro pets can hit harder then us with higher focuses i believe (one of them can correct me but i believe Ritual Summoning benefits them more).
Quote5th best healer
Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Paladin, Ranger ... which would put us 6th
Quote2nd best long term mana buffer
If we talking buffing other people then yes we are second best class at doing that however i tend to think of bard songs being long term since they can sing them forever pretty much and most bards worth a dime can sing 4 songs at a time. Nowhere near second best spell tho. If we just talking mana regen in general then Necros beat everyone.
QuoteBest stat buffer
Shamans completely destroy in this.
So what was your point again? That we are mediocre in many aspects of the game? That we can fill a lot of roles to a lesser degree then other classes? I don't see how that makes us overpowered, it makes us wanted for groups mainly because getting those other classes is often very hard.
Quote from: CoprolithQuoteI agree. Comparably equipped/AA'd BL will "out-tank" a Ranger
Define 'tanking ability' :wink:
We can out-agro a ranger im sure, but we cannot take damage better then a ranger, or any other melee class for that matter, as parses of class defensive capabilities have shown. When it comes to soaking up damage, we are in fact #8, because bards beat us as well. When it come to agro-management, we're prolly at the number 4 or 5 slot.
/hugs
Good morning!
I was referring to the greater innate ability of the BL to "bob & weave" (Avoidance) over and above the shared AA's CA/LR.
As far as take the hits....Ranger definately will stand the punishment better. In a practical sense that means he may be able to take 1 more direct hit, hehee.
:lol:
/wave
QuoteI was referring to the greater innate ability of the BL to "bob & weave" (Avoidance) over and above the shared AA's CA/LR.
Avoidance is included in those parses i mentioned. Looking at the combined effect of avoidance and mitigation we're still last of the melee classes (heck i suspect mage earth pets are better then us in that respect)
QuoteLooks like 8th from your list, and i must say your list doesn't look right. Think bards and shaman can tank better then us.
Bards yes, shaman no. We even come out above the plate wearing clerics. This is because priests have a Defense skill that is considerably lower then ours, they have no parry/block or riposte at all, and their dodge skill caps at 75ish(100?).
/hugs
Why do we need to be best at any one thing in particular? I'm not sure lacking a clear specialty negatively affects our balance or value (where value = fun, ease of playablity, effectiveness in solo, groups or raids or desireability).
In raid situations our guild has been experamenting to good results with the bst pets buffed with V taking out adds to reduce the amount of healing our main healers have to do. The biggest problem has been the pallys and sk's stealing the mobs our pets are holding for the MA while he is on the main mob.
Other than that we cast SD and Paragon on raids and so a bit of damage as well.
To be fair most classes have very limited and specific roles on a raid, why should a bst be different? Mages get to nuke and COTH peeps in, Necros dot and pull, rogues damage and CR and sometimes pull etc etc.
Rraane
Interesting input. I spent about 40% soloing, 50% duo'ing with a Necro, and 9% grouping (LDoN) and maybe 1% raiding. I'm not feeling beastlords are underpowered, but was looking for a clear/defining roll in raids or in groups.
LoL - I guess the desire to be more an essential toon than just a useful one was getting to me... But I weaned myself from that last night, 3 hours on my old cleric toon reminded me of why I like my beastlord :lol:
Still think it would be cool to get some sort of animal harmony, animal mez, of some sort. Kinda keeping in line with Necro undead mez, or Mage summoned mez. Or something unique...
Why do we have to be the BEST at anything, we are the perfect case for "the whole is greater then the sum of the parts". On LDoNs in the past few months BL's are used for slow, CC and tanking. I join a group we dont need a plat tank, we dont need a shaman and we dont need a chanter a BL can do all 3 jobs. What shaman and chanters ARE used for is buffing before the fight and then left in camp. Have never seen a BL logged on for buffs and then camped. I do like a group with a GOOD warrior and chanter, then I can just about go full tilt.
just my two coppers
At raids, I am effectively a SD/paragon/Fero bot for the casters and dps's. It makes me a little sad. DPS wise, despite having one of the better weapon combo's available to us, my melee dps is around 130 ish non disc, not including pet, since pet generally eats 1 ae ramp or 2 or 3 ae spells and I gotta stop attack for 9 sec to heal him (if he gets the heal before dying horribly). So in my opinion, we are there for speeding up the cleric's/wizards/mages/druids mana regen and increasing a few rangers or rogues dps.
Damned if bst isn't the most fun I've had playing this silly game tho =P
QuoteBest stat buffer
I think he is talking about Ferocity.
Ferocity isn't known for it's "stat buffing" though.
Ferocity is quite possibly better than any individual shaman buff, but shaman are still better buffers in general.
And, although this doesn't matter in the slightest in the long run, when it comes to mitigation based tanking (where DPS doesn't really matter, it's all about spikes...AKA tough raids) Beastlords lose to everybody except for Casters, even Shaman/Cleric/Druids are better tanks for that. If you didn't have the mana for the DPS, then you might use a Beastlord in hopes that the spikes aren't there, but in general you'd be better off trying to tank these with a Priest than a Beastlord. Of course nobody would ever bother to sink as low as a Beastlord or Priest for these anyway.
QuoteAt raids, I am effectively a SD/paragon/Fero bot for the casters and dps's. It makes me a little sad. DPS wise, despite having one of the better weapon combo's available to us, my melee dps is around 130 ish non disc, not including pet, since pet generally eats 1 ae ramp or 2 or 3 ae spells and I gotta stop attack for 9 sec to heal him (if he gets the heal before dying horribly). So in my opinion, we are there for speeding up the cleric's/wizards/mages/druids mana regen and increasing a few rangers or rogues dps.
Every beast chooses the role they want to play on a raid.
I chose the role of pre-slowing as have my guildmate beastlords and our guild looks at us as the first line of debuffs. Fero goes on only myself or someone that needs resists because that's honestly the importance of the spell at the high end(most of my guild mates have maxxed their innate attack beyond belief but not everyone has maxxed their resists).
Pets though a liability on high end raiding because of what you described above aren't always 100% of the time that hard off. If they contribute somewhat to a fight then you're dps hasn't been offset that much, and using Calliav, Pet Mend, and a smaller heal can offset your pets demise considerably.
Again preslowing is a niche that isn't needed but is most assuredly welcome to raiding guilds.
I still think we're there for the Pre-slow, mana regen and the dps and that's a potent combo right there for any raid.
Ok, just to clarify:
When you are in a competition, and someone takes first, someone else TIES someone for 2nd, you take 3rd....not forth...its does NOT skip 3rd.
In my post, each rank is seperated by commas, with those tied (or nearly enough to not warrent discussion) seperated by forward slashes.
Tanking: Warriors are first. SK/Pal are TIED for second. Rangers/Berserkers/Rogues/monks are pretty tied for 3rd, with all 3 being worse than knight, but better than BLs, BLs are 4th, being better than everyone else.
Bards might mitigate better...so do clerics...but pure mitigation = tanking ability...Bard avoidance blows, period. Look up thier repost/parry caps, and the level they get both of those skills.
Also...most rangers/rogues/berserkers do NOT tank-solo at level 65, where as many many beastlords do. Therefore, the average level 65 beast will likely out-tank everyone outside of warriors and knights, simply based on gear selection that revolves more heavily on tanking.
Last I checked, rangers get the same heals BLs do, so how are they better healers? Same heals + paragon would make BLs better, if you want to get into it.
We are pretty much tied with necro's for pet strenth, afaik theirs does a little better dps with ours tanking slightly better. So, mage in #1, necro/bl in #2. If you want to count every pet that is better than ours, then hell, bls are like #874 since every pet except a few beats our level 9 summon...I was only counting classes, not pets.
Anyway...if you two that claim BLs are worse tanks than shaman and bards....well, I don't care jack diddly if a shaman mitigates 10% better than me, when I avoid 40% more hits.
Just as an FYI Rangers get Sylvan Light (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=59834)
That definitely makes em better healers than us
Quote from: Shirrkarn AygeJust as an FYI Rangers get Sylvan Light (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=59834)
That definitely makes em better healers than us
Rangers have a rare chance to get this. A very small percentage will see this spell, so to use it as a justification doesnt really apply, IMO.
Quote from: XarilokWhen you are in a competition, and someone takes first, someone else TIES someone for 2nd, you take 3rd....not forth...its does NOT skip 3rd.
You might want to look again. Many (most) ranking systems do just that.
QuoteBards might mitigate better...so do clerics...but pure mitigation = tanking ability...Bard avoidance blows, period. Look up thier repost/parry caps, and the level they get both of those skills.
Bud, when defensive parses are done, they usually don't give a hoot about who can dodge or mitigate better. They take into account the one factor that matter: damage taken over time. The parses made on the Steel Warrior show that EVERY other non-priest, non-caster takes less dps than we do.
QuoteAlso...most rangers/rogues/berserkers do NOT tank-solo at level 65, where as many many beastlords do. Therefore, the average level 65 beast will likely out-tank everyone outside of warriors and knights, simply based on gear selection that revolves more heavily on tanking.
This is an assumption, and a bad one at the core. What defines a "gear selection that revolves more heavily on tanking"? I solo all the time, and my gear selections are focused on two things: dps and efficiency (foci, regen, etc). I know rangers that I raid with that have more avoidance and shielding than I do. I know pallies and sks that have less. You are making an argument with a bad assumption at its core.
QuoteLast I checked, rangers get the same heals BLs do, so how are they better healers? Same heals + paragon would make BLs better, if you want to get into it.
Someone dissed the person who responded about Sylvan Light, saying it was beyond the majority of rangers. But it drops in the Sewers and Vxed, which are the "open access" part of GoD. Any decently skilled ranger should be able to get it if he/she decided to put the time into it.
QuoteAnyway...if you two that claim BLs are worse tanks than shaman and bards....well, I don't care jack diddly if a shaman mitigates 10% better than me, when I avoid 40% more hits.
Pay attention to what people are saying sometime, would you?
Quote from: GrymlokSomeone dissed the person who responded about Sylvan Light, saying it was beyond the majority of rangers. But it drops in the Sewers and Vxed, which are the "open access" part of GoD. Any decently skilled ranger should be able to get it if he/she decided to put the time into it.
I did not "diss" anyone.
It is available, but atm there is not a large % of Rangers who have this spell. However with mudflation this will undoubtedly change. The only reason I addressed this was the relative few who own this spell should not be a scale against which Rangers "Healing" ability is gauged.
For one who speaks of not over-generalizing and making assumptions, you seem to making some of your own.
Shrug.. I was merely replying to a post that ignored a spell which gives rangers markedly better healing ability than beasts.
As Grymlok said the spell is not rare, it just requires some determination to do sewer trials until it drops.
Quote from: MneumenthIt is available, but atm there is not a large % of Rangers who have this spell. However with mudflation this will undoubtedly change. The only reason I addressed this was the relative few who own this spell should not be a scale against which Rangers "Healing" ability is gauged.
For one who speaks of not over-generalizing and making assumptions, you seem to making some of your own.
/shrug every ranger I group with has this spell. Granted, we are working on GoD progression, so they have perhaps had more access to Rune drops. But I view this as akin to Sha's Advantage back in the day. It was rare as hell in the early days of PoP, but did people use this in comparisons/complaints about us? You bet.
wow.. many things that I would like to say but don't have the time for it now.
Would like to point out a blatant obvious error that even my own guildee mentioned before (/rude Urim).
Okay.. being a great stat buffer means what to whom????? What added benefits am I getting from hitting any beastlord with Fero and FA. Well, Ferocity gives you more attack and a huge amount of resists. FA gives you attack and more stats. Now.. let's look at stats. Who in here needs the extra 140 to all stats that FA gives you??? I certainly know that it's wasted on me. Now.. who in here needs the extra resists that Fero gives you?? /em raises his hand.
Let's look at mana buffs. Who in here needs the extra mana per tick that you get from SD?? /em raises his hand. Now, who in here needs the extra mana that you get from shaman buffs? Wait.. shaman don't have a mana buff that they can give people.
Okay, now onto hp buffs. Congrats on getting Focus from a shaman. You have just gained 554 extra hps and more stat buffs that you didn't need before especially with FA on you. Okay, take off focus and buff yourself with Kragg and SV. Congrats, you now have a total of more hps that just focus was plus that extra 40 attack.
What about resists? Well, Fero is giving you 65 to any resist, and you can buff yourself up to 110 dr/pr total.
Guess the point I'm making is that the beastlord is now the best pure buffing class around (close between beastlord and chanter, but bst have more options). You can give someone everything that a shaman can but better. Today's game requires high attack and quick mana regen. Fights are shorter and stat buffs have proved worthless. If I sit unbuffed at maxed stats, it won't matter how many extra stat buffs I can stick on myself, it isn't going to help at all. Everyone that can cast wants more mana regen (which you provide), everyone that melees want higher attack (which you provide) and above all, everyone total needs higher resists, which you provide better as well.
Way to seriously slant an argument.
Not everybody has max stats, and when you don't, shaman is better.
Not everybody has infinite buff slots, and when you don't, shaman is better.
Nobody willingly uses Spiritual Vigor, they only use it when they cannot get either Brell's or Tunare, depending on what type of class...and Shaman get Kragg too.
Ferocity costs way more mana, and can be kept up on less people than Ferine Avatar can.
Regen spells? Oh wait, you didn't even bother to mention these. Shaman is better.
Haste buffs? Shaman blow beastlords out of the water with these...but again, you failed to mention these at all.
The whole buffing example has some flaws and not the least of which is it again ignores other classes. Add a paladin to the mix and the whole hp thing goes out the window because SV doesn't stack with BSS. At that point it's kragg verse focus.
"Guess the point I'm making is that the beastlord is now the best pure buffing class around (close between beastlord and chanter, but bst have more options)."
I just can't agree with that. A beastlord can haste a raid, but god dang that'd suck. Even a shaman could atleast ToA, take the hit to haste %, and save a ton of time/mana. Also if you are talking pure atk then a ranger buffs more than a beastlord does over a raid. A ranger can pred/tunare everyone. A beastlord can vigor everyone, fero ~4 max and sav ~3 max.
Fero:
6.5 min base duration 2 min refresh
Savagery:
6.5 min base duration (at 65) 3 min refresh
Ferine avatar:
6.5 min base duration 1 min refresh
Also shaman actually get SCRM and beastlords don't currently (/pray OoW). If you want to talk just a single group or specific circumstances then you can, but my shaman can keep FA on 11 people(I don't wanna lol, but I can shhhh). My beastlord using 2 spell slots, and a dot for every sav can only keep fero/sav up on 7 people.
SoP + SoT = 130 raw atk to anyone that wants it. A beastlord can drop SV on anyone that wants and sustain 40 raw attack on them. Then you need to use fero/sav on a few select targets, but it's not near the raw atk boost a ranger can grant. The obvious differance is that adding another beastlord to the raid/whatever lets them stack more feros for more attacks where as adding more rangers doesn't. *shrugs*
No, he was making the same point I was. Even for all the people that don't have max stats, IoS is all they need.
For anyone within 60STA of the cap, Focus gives more pure HP, as it is 544 compared to 365. However, for those NOT at the stat caps, getting the extra 40-80 sta that beastlords can buff adds a lot to thier HP. A lot of bazaar'd geared peeps sit between 150 and 200 Sta, and for them, IoS, Kragg, SV, and Fero gives them much much more stats and HP than a shaman can.
If shaman really were that much superior, why are they getting new buffs with OoW?? They are getting buffs that instead of adding str, it increases base damage, instead of agil they get buffs that add avoidance, etc. Least thats the word from few shammy buddies of mine. Beastlords are not slated to get such buffs, which would put is squarely where we belong, second to shaman...atm we are first, as far as useful buffs goes.
As for regen...Shaman can do 40, we can do 29...not that big a difference.
What the heck? You assume people are close enough to the stat cap that IoS caps them, yet far enough away that they get benefit out of the extra stamina from Ferocity? Pure hypocrisy.
By the way, Fero + IoS is only 85 STA, whereas Talisman of the Boar is 60 alone. That's not that big of difference.
People getting new buffs with OoW somehow proves that they suck now? :roll:
New stat buffs with OoW is a great thing and atleast 1 expansion too late imo. Stats are capping and have been capped for awhile. I think the change to an actual boost off the buff is great and I'm sure I'll be doing way too much parsing once OoW goes live lol.
The whole discussion is so pigeon holed though. I mean you don't even make mention of mana or casting time or where a class actually falls. Also you constantly just compare a beastlord to a shaman and ignore any other classes that might be present. Adding a rng or enc or whatever changes things.
You simply can't keep fero on everyone. I go out of my way to keep it on 4 people and the simple fact is you have 6 people in a group max. Fero'n 4 people is a HUGE mana expenditure, also it requires AA/gear to make it possible, otherwise you can only fero half the group. Where as every shaman can easily infusion/board/manical/kragg/etc as needed. The fact that beastlords with no one else present can potentially add more hps to someone than a shaman isn't that out of wack. I mean clerics are the main HP buffing class in the game and a paladin can take on more hps to a group than they can if you factor in brells.
Beastlords have some great buffs, shaman can use some tweaks, but could we please stop completely ignoring details like other classes, casting cost, refresh time, etc. I'd love to see the look on beastlords face when a raid leader tells them "we didn't let the shaman in since you can buff better than them and add more hps!" Clearly this will happen since beastlords are so much better, heck even if shaman are there you'll still see beastlords doing the buffing since they are better at it lol.
Quote from: TerjynPovarWhat the heck? You assume people are close enough to the stat cap that IoS caps them, yet far enough away that they get benefit out of the extra stamina from Ferocity? Pure hypocrisy.
By the way, Fero + IoS is only 85 STA, whereas Talisman of the Boar is 60 alone. That's not that big of difference.
People getting new buffs with OoW somehow proves that they suck now? :roll:
Beastlords don't get Boar, but we do get Stamina, which puts the difference in potential Stamina buffage at 65, not 25.
IoS+Sta+Fero=125
Boar=60
IoS+Boar=105
So, yea, even if a shaman uses IoS and Boar, beasts still maintain a 20 point lead.
I'm not saying a beast will buff a raid better, just like a shaman won't haste a raid better than a chanter.
What I am saying, is that for me (in a mix of bazaar/ornate/nurga gear) MY buffs give me BOTH more stats and HP than a shaman can, for more slots of course. Everyone in my epic-raiding family guild gets MORE from my buffs than they do from shaman buffs. When the day comes that I can get a full line of buffs from a shaman that are BETTER than mine, they can be the best buffers, but as it is, when a MGB goes off in PoK, I click off Focus and recast IoS and Kragg.
i am in mainly baz gear - and i get 100 more hp with a shm around (ie sta max - and focus has more +hp), and less buff shots - and i am normaly going hmmm what can i click off for the HoT spot with shm buffs - with just 3 buffing classes in group, you got to pick what buffs you want - do i need resists, want more mana reg, have a DS, stat buffs, atk buffs, hp buffs, movement buffs etc, even soloing with self cast spells you can full up buff slots if you go the hole hog.
Quote
Beastlords don't get Boar, but we do get Stamina, which puts the difference in potential Stamina buffage at 65, not 25.
IoS+Sta+Fero=125
Boar=60
IoS+Boar=105
So, yea, even if a shaman uses IoS and Boar, beasts still maintain a 20 point lead.
However Shamans can also use primal essence which adds 20 stamina which would cancel out our massive lead.
Atashi
The thing is what if a MGB BSS goes off with the focus? Or a MGB SoT? SV simply doesn't always land, but focus can always land, people can always choose a stamina buff, etc. Even fero can't always land. If you want to talk about solo that changes things, but again you are ignoring mana cost and refresh time and picking a very specific situation. A beastlord simply can't keep fero on everyone that wants it or could use it. In a group of 6 for example your base beastlord could infusion + sta = (85 X 6) + fero (40 * 3) that's 630 stamina buffed. A shaman simply using IoS and boar (1 less buff slot) can put 630 stamina to the group as well and for far less mana. If two people can do the samething and one does it easier and for less than mana than one class is clearly ahead imo. Also note that the second it becomes a raid a beastlord has no chance of touching a shaman. Then you get into stackability which has always been a weaker point for shaman, but could easily be fixed with certain game changes.
I guess it's just like in a lot of other threads people are picking one specific situation, in this case it seems to be totally solo well not near the sta cap and using that to make overall claims. I can't wait for the new shaman buffs and I think they got here too late, but to claim "beast > shaman" for buffing is simply inaccurate from actual in game type of settings. I know there are some people that will take certain buffs over others and have the buff slots to work with and EQ is vast with lots of different situations, but overall I just haven't seen bst to buff better than shm.
Well, there's been many a time that a diligent beasty can buff better then a lazy shaman.
back in my raiding days, myself and another beastlord would be tasked to put IOS & Kraggs on everyone due to the fact that the shaman was running late. We would do that, single cast 6 groups, necro twitching, rod here rod there, but would get it done. The shaman would finally arrive just as we started to move then we would have to wait so he could put that dang Khura's Focusing on everyone, half the melee would click it off and then yell at the beastlords to put ios and kraggs back on them. We would ask the shaman to not cast his Khura's focusing and join us in casting ios & kraggs but that was too teduis for him to single cast those spells on 1/3 of the raid and he would always refuse. So since he couldn't be troubled to single target buff 2 groups, me and my beastlord buddy of mine had to single target buff 3 groups each.
So yeah, at all levels Shamans can outbuff beastlords but but but some of them are just plain lazy.
Hehe the actual play of the person is huge in some cases. I know some paladins and rangers I'd rather have as healer in my group than clerics lol. Just like I mentioned with the OT'n the like the skill of the player can make a big differance, but if you take an equally skilled/experienced player and give them the other class (me going to pally to OT or whatever) then you see how things fall.
Actually.. the whole reason behind my arguement is proving that beastlord are better overall buffers than shaman. This had nothing to do with any other class being present but just beastlords and shaman.
So, for all purposes the three areas of buffage that means the most right now for anyone is: attack, mana regen, and hps (and resists I guess depending on where you are at)
Beastlords provide better buffs for all three. And whoever was hit with fero also gets more resists than a shaman alone can give.
That is my point.
Don't get me wrong here, my shaman is my main and my beastlord is my alt, but I think that I know both classes.
Quote from: ValsuviousActually.. the whole reason behind my arguement is proving that beastlord are better overall buffers than beastlords.
/smack Vals ... Delete your bst, scummy vah shir. Need to get you charmed during HP so i can kill you.
As far as hps goes:
Kraggs + Spiritual Vigor = 605 hps and in comparison the single buff F07 will do 544, then yes, a beastlord can buff 61 more hps then a shaman could. I find it very curious though considering you can get 61 more hps with a beastlord buffs then you could with shaman buffs that I have yet to have someone click off F07 and request kraggs from me.
As far as attack goes:
A beaslord using Fero and SV boosts attack by 190 and as long as Strength is capped already then yes again a beastlord can buff more attack then a shaman FA+Bih'Li = 155 attack. If strength isn't capped then that changes considerbly though as the shaman's stat buffs adds 215 str, so the 35 additional attack that a beastlord can offer is very conditional on the stats of the person being buffed.
as far as mana regen goes:
/concur
However, if your needing the extra mana regen that a beastlord can provide to help improve a groups healing ability then you would get much better milage by getting a shaman to heal instead, Cann 5 averages out to 100 mana a tic and that's a lot of healing capability.
as far as resists go:
/concur Fero's 65 to all resists is very nice, and shaman's best ability is to buff 65 to poison and disease.
Overall I can see your point. If the person needing buffs had maxed stats already, and they had a healer and they needed the boosts in resists and didn't mind the lessor slow ability nor the lessor haste of beastlords then yes in that particular situation I would have to agree that beastlords are better buffers, though in all the time i've spent playing on my chanter i've yet to see groups pick a beastlord to replace me as I left over a shaman. Get the shammy!!!!! is all i've ever heard when I asked the group for what class they wanted to replace me if another chanter wasn't available, so I'm not quite sure how often your hypotical situation occurs.
"Actually.. the whole reason behind my arguement is proving that beastlord are better overall buffers than beastlords. This had nothing to do with any other class being present but just beastlords and shaman. "
Sorry, but I vehmently object to you claiming beastlords are better overall buffers than beastlords!! 8P
Also you are talking about "buffing" and completely solo and leaving out so many other things. What happened to the fact that a shaman buffs 60% haste and a beastlord does 50%? We mention resist buffs, but leave out the fact that beastlords get endure magic and shaman get resist magic. The only way the discussion comes close is if you factor in fero which only holds true totally solo or in a group of up to 4 people. In a full group or a raid then things change considerably. If you want to talk completely solo then look at how much haste a solo bard can buff and what their solo mana regen is (lol) and what they can add to +atk and to damage shield. I mean the game isn't just played in one situation and it's not played on paper by looking at spell dat. If you actually look across all situations though and even those most common you'll find things are quite different. No one is choosing a beastlord to buff a raid over a shaman and I've yet to see a group pick a paladin over a cleric for hp buffs hehe. I understand the arguement and even that in some situations a beastlord could actually give more hps/atk than a shaman, but the thought of someone actually telling me to log my shaman and bring my beastlord to buff instead is mind blowing hehe.
bastards... i fixed what I said earlier to say "beastlords better than shaman"
Will amend the rest for my counter-argument
Something to think about...
Kragg + SV > Fo7
but....
Kragg + SV < Fo7 + SV
So stop arguing over who is better and work together :P
Sorry all long post and try and hit all pionts to start with will start with beastlords place in teh world of norrath
For a long time beastlords have had to learn to sure what resouces we have to over come our short comings
and in doing so we opened up our main role or main role is to fill any spot that vacent .
we dont do any of the spots we fill better then anyone elsse but we can make do.
here is list of spots i have learned to take over from time to time slower/crowed control/tank/offtank/healer/buffer/puller/dps now i do oka at all of these and tehre is and always will be better at it cause thats whet they were made for.
Its sad that those classes that have those roles fell threatedn i dont want there job i have done it and it sucks.
I just want to be the DPS i was desigend to be
best buff shammy vs beastlord
Oka guess what guys beastlord can our buff a shammy takes 5 buff slots and all you time to keep a group up and a shammy can do all the same with a few hps less and less atk with just 2 buffs and that are group spells.
Shammy wins IMO
Fero vs FA
this is just plain sill take both if you can will serously help on dps out put on all dps
In conclution i personnaly like the fact we are not the best at anything we have takin so little and done so much with it we get hate mail from all the other classes. keep it up.
So the next time you feel we dont have a niche in the world . think agein and see we are the Filler when something is missing. and in Enjoy
Quote from: ToilerI can't think of a single thing that makes us the best at anything... (then goes on to)...
Druids - Porting, Damage shields, healing, animal pet charm
Best at porting? right.. ok.. nearly as usefull as "best at bind wound"
Best at healing... ok .. tell that to the clerics
Best at Animal char ... situational at best.
Playing a Hybrid class, 95% of the time, you will never be "best" at something over your parent classes?
(with the possible exception of SP/Paragon)
cant edit .. but missed my last line
Would still be a BST over a Druid any day of the week despite not being "best" at anything
Beastlords are the best class at being fun to play.
I think we do not have to be the best at anything. In my opinion we are a very versitile class to play. We can slow, buff and put out decent DPS. We solo pretty good, we are wanted in groups because we cant take the place of an shaman.
Our slow may not be the best but if we get aggro we can take damage better than an enchanter and a shaman.
I do not think I read one post here stating that we are underpowered some say we are overpowered but my opinion we are just right.
Quote from: shnaggleI think we do not have to be the best at anything. In my opinion we are a very versitile class to play. We can slow, buff and put out decent DPS. We solo pretty good, we are wanted in groups because we cant take the place of an shaman.
Our slow may not be the best but if we get aggro we can take damage better than an enchanter and a shaman.
I do not think I read one post here stating that we are underpowered some say we are overpowered but my opinion we are just right.
I completely agree with you. Our versitility is what makes our class so much fun to play. It is the combinations of spells, abilities, etc that is our true strength. Who need to be "The Best" at one thing when you are "Good" at so many things!
We are the best at being sexy.
What else could you ask for?
:D :) :wink:
Something wrong with claiming to be the best at being sexy and having that for an avatar lol.
Not to mention that bsts got better pet than shammies! /gasp
-Raz
True beauty is within!
:wink:
I'd think from our pet and meele hybridism we are the lords of pet spam :D
Quote from: ShiearaWe are the best at being sexy.
What else could you ask for?
:D :) :wink:
Heck ya my ogre in his daisy dukes gets constantly sexually harassed. and I LIKE IT
Quote from: DummkopfBeastlords are pretty well rounded around high pop/ele level, after that we fall behind especially in GoD. In the high end were just there for SD/Paragon and thats it, our dps is very low, our usability (stat buff, slow etc) is just not needed because it is subpar as well, our pets fall way behind in terms of power-progression. I dont ask to get shaman slows, monk dps or mage pets, but a small dps upgrade would be nice since that is really the only thing we can do on raids now (except SD of course or paragon).
I have to strongly agree with Dummkopf. Since GoD has come out, speed in killing mobs has become much more paramount than slowing mobs. Basically this spells out that DPS is king in regards to the new content. Beastlords have fallen signifcantly behind in the DPS power curve in relation to other DPS oriented classes. I think some possible solutions could include more double attack AAs or some DPS oriented AA's that specifically boost the damage dealing capability of the beastlord and their warder.
The beastlord as a class relies on 3 areas to achieve it's full dps potential, melee, spells and pet. Give a rogue, monk or warrior a better weapon, and their DPS increase is directly proportional to how much better that weapon is than what that they had previously. On the other hand, if a beastlord gets a weapon upgrade, only 1 of the 3 damage dealing abilities is boosted. My point with this is, beastlords need more ways to boost their DPS because of how fractionally their DPS increases.
It's obvious that beastlords pay a price for their utility, but at the Raiding level of the game, beastlord utility is really inmaterial. Niches and specialties shine in raids and without a way to have a nich, a minor buff and (hopefully)competitive DPS is all that a beastlord can hope to offer in raiding environment.
After slogging my through all the posts, I have realized that I have only truly played hybrid classes. I have experimented with melee or caster only classes but never taken them beyond 30 level. All my 60+ classes have been hybrids.
I like the varied roles I can play. Very important in 6 person groups. Obviously waters you down in raid roles when things have to be done a certain way because you have to eek out the best odds you can so you will go with the class that has the best chance in that role.
Get a bard, beastlord, chanter in your 6 person group and I heard people saying they could not get their mana below 70% while I was practically chain pulling.
When I decided to give my 65 bard a rest, I was pulled to play a beastlord. Using my pet to offtank to give the chanter time to mez, being main healer, buffing my friends, topping off health to allow main healer to med more, keeping aggro off twinked rogue with help of FoL, wading in there to melee as MT, offtanking.....
Yeah, other clases can do one thing better or get to do some of the variety, but no class gets to everything a beastlord can do. I am not pidgeon holed into one aspect.
What makes a beastlord a desireable, best....whatever? The person behind the toon playing them. I have a blast finding ways to do things that others don't want to even bother trying to figure out. Playing a beastlord gives me more options with a twist that other classes do not, even other hybrids.
It is tough to give hyrbrids a class defining role because by definition, we can have multiple roles.
well just my 2cp and be it that I am not up to GoD lvl raiding stuff yet but I have been around awhile and I used to play a shaman as my main but stopped playin him cause they only have one use before OoW and that was slower which was quickly negated by the fact that so many classes could slow almost as good and slows started becoming mitigated in PoP as well as the fact that PoP gear pretty much made maxing stats with buffs null and void and with OoW out you can pretty much max your stats by 65 with baz gear or at least almost. So I rolled a BL and never looked back have a blast with the class but enough about me on to what I think the class needs flame on cause I know some peeps will its what they live for :-P
1. Tanking: I dont know about you guys but I tank just fine in PoV at 61 on golems, albeit I cant tank raid mobs but we arent designed to tank raid mobs thats a Warriors or a well geared Pal/SKs job. No we cant handle taking ramp , yes we will get eatin if we take agro from the raid mob. But in certain situations we can tank just fine and yes I know that your beloved parsing things say ALL classes save int casters and druids can mitigate better than us but I seriously doubt that no matter what them stupid parses say it just aint so nuff said (next time u got a druid and BL in group with no war go head and tell the BL to heal while the druid tanks and see who soaks up the clerics mana faster). I know GoD era we cant tank nor can we do OoW tanking it was made for plate classes obviously and as it should be they are the tanks not us. All and all we arent meatshields we are paper tanks and mana sponges just like rangers, monks, rogues, etc etc if your guild is trying to have you tank _001 raid mob then you should just /guildremove cause they are just dumb but wont talk about tanking anymore we all know we can tank what we solo just fine and we are happy with it. Just as a little side note to show you we tank better than rangers and all other classes aside from plate tanks I was in sky last night doing some epic stuff for a necro friend ( which fuggin sucks azz btw) and me 61 BL and a 65 ranger with epics and pretty decent gear (more hp and ac than me keep this is mind higher lvl, more hp, more ac we both above 1200ac and 5k hps) so he goes in before me for some reason so he has healer healin em on and he goes down pretty fast from 3 of them imp things I come in and start tankin em and last longer than him and he had healer so dont think we tank right below wars sks and pallies cause we can key factor.
2 DPS: Not sure how it gets way on up there as I am only 61 atm but I can agree with you guys here and I know Tastion is workin on it so gratz to him for workin with them sonz of bishes at SoE. I personally think atm I do good dps I do bout 90-110 dps not countin pet atm without disc but then again I am blessed with pretty decent gear for my lvl you'll see it in sig if you click it (BUT and I say but because not everyone is as lucky as me to have gotten hooked up) our dps is to sporadic we do have so many aspects that contribute to it and I really didnt realize it till I read this board more thoroughly, so gj whoever did that stuff, our dps is all in all {the BL himself, our pet, minorly is spells and hugely is procs) So it would be nice to see a pretty decent boost in one area or a little bit in two areas (fuk spells waste of time you cant hit while u cast, not saying I dont cast spells cause I do lol but it shouldnt be what gets raised to help our dps, so either pet or pet and the bl itself) the only thing i can see thats reduces our melee dps and correct me if I am wrong cause I not totally sure is the fact that we dont get double attack which makes a huge difference in dps, so I cna only think to either give us double attack skill but have it cap at a lower lvl and then AAs will add to the chance to double attack but that takes to much coding prolly so why not just add more AAs for double attack to raise the chance to do it to say 50% hell thats not bad (and I am sure this has alrdy been suggested and shot down over and over again cause I know I aint that much of an original thinker but its still a thought) or give our pets a huge melee dps increase cause I can already tell that at lvl 70 my pet is just gonna be like SK pets are to them prettymuch a speed bump on raids and dont last long enough to even waste time casting after their first death cause then u arent contributing any dps at all but then again I am willing to bet all pets have that same problem cause my pet aint the only one that drops from AoE ramp on raids its pretty much all of em so I guess I answered my own question and prolly fortified the fact that the BL itself needs the dps upgrade not our pets jsut make them tank better but will talk about that in pet section :-P
Healing: Face it we suck at it nuff said I dont care if I wanted to heal all the time I woulda rolled a cleric, that being said we are ghetto patch healers at best on very rare occasions will I drop back to heal the MT in hopes that it keeps him alive long enough for the real healer to get enough mana to Cheal em which it usually doesnt but hey ya gotta try :-P who cares if a ranger heals better than us they are a hybrid druid who have some damne nice heal spells we are a hybrid shaman who have been gimp healers since luclin nuff said moving on.
Slows: Hell slowers are a dime a dozen now Shamans used to be king at it (and still are)then Chanters came in and were able to do it almost as good then bards came in with their little slow and necros dont count I mean how many undead are there in the game really so stop given em props cause their slow is purely situational and it doesnt merit any credit nuff said, then we came in and we do pretty damne good even though its only 65% thats still damne good for a hybrid class hell its only 10% slower than the big dog as it should be we are hybrid shaman and it dont really matter anymore everything mitigates in some form so no one slows for full anymore. So basically if a shaman or chanter is there they are gonna be slower cause theirs is better which means even if it mitigates the % of slow is still gonna be higher ( not sure if chanter slow is better than our 65 but I am pretty sure it is or at least same % correct me if I am wrong) hell np for me slow away I will pre slow for ya to save u from aggro and help the tank not get beat up so much it aint gonna save cleric mana though cause if you wait till its safe u are just wastin mana cause shaman alrdy cast it so you are gonna get beat on a bit if u cast right off oh well thats why our def capps higher i guess than those oh so much better mitigating classes that the parses say i can take it heal me and move on or I step back and heal myself a little and jump back in the frey. Dont think I have seen to many BLs bitch about this one I am happy with my slow other than it does bounce abit which really does suck, (this is off topic but the key to our tanking ability lies in our slow if we cant slow it then we aint tanking it nuff said dont try to tank somthin u cant slow it hurts) so whoever posted that idea about given us a resist mod to our slow good idea cause it does bounce quite a bit. Thats the only thing I can think of for our slow is what has alrdy been stated on mod to it.
Pet: Alright this is what our class was designed to be at first I think we do have some pretty damne good pets and I will say that forever I just parsed my lvl 60 pet to my friends lvl 60 pet (and when i say my lvl 60 pet i mean the khati sha pet not aragg and his was the actual pet lvl 60 air pet who is a mean mofo i might add) both were fully buffed witih my buffs aside form his pet not having my pets proc or haste had his own both had full pet kit and they went at it yeh my pet lost but my pet got em down to like 60% before he died I think thats pretty good for a lvl 40somthin pet to a lvl 60 pet. But that being aside I cant really say much for our pets in GoD hell I cant really post anything on our pets except hearsay that they kinda suck past PoP will have to fill me in here on that one but I dont doubt it that they kinda suck in GoD+ all pets prolly do the mobs jsut hit to hard and to fast for the pets to do anything to em. But pls dont say necro pets are better than our pets as far as dmg I did a parse once again with same pet and lvl 65 necro pet and my pet ate em up they hate no kits but still puffed em up and my pet won. Now not sure if our pets get a nice boost from pet AAs from GoD and OoW would like some input on that myself so I know if I should waste AAs on em up front or wait till I get around to em. So for this topic I cant really say anything except that I like my pet and he does add to our dps as a whole I am sure he ups our dps by at least 20 if we can keep em alive.
DDs: If I wanted to have the big booms I woulda rolled a wiz and sat on my ass and wasnt aloud to burn the mob till the MT called it (yes I know wizzies get to do little nukes over the course of the fight and they add major DPS but hell they are just boring imo if they run oom thats it they are done which they wont nowadays but u get what i am saying) I think we get some pretty damne good DDs for the mana we cast for em hell you get a bone studded loop or another cold mod and get some DD AAs u are sitten pretty I think and I dont think a 1k nuke is that bad even if its only every 30 secs thats 2k every min and some change if it lands for full not bad imo. Sure they could give us low resist nukes but then we would be wizzies and they would bitch up a storm cause thats all a wizzie has got they got nothin else but the big booms if my memory serves me correctly oh and AE TLC and Evac and that stuff imo we are doing fine for DDs cept maybe give us one pretty decent one with not such a long recast or lower the cecast on ours that we got atm to like 20secs. Point is with all the mana regen out there today in the high end and most of you guys postin this stuff for good or bad are at least 60+ and have raided know that your arent gonna run oom or its very hard too, hell your got the mana cast them DDs and DoTs what else your got to do with the mana might as well make use outta it :-P
DoTs: hell they are decent we get an added what 1-2k if it goes for full which it prolly wont in a norm xp group but thats ok any u get at least 1-200 dmg outta it and any dmg is good dmg right seein as I see peeps sayin that its all about the dps now well I dont care if its a 1 freakin pt of dmg ds everytime u get hit from the mob its still a point off his life right. I think we are fine on our DoTs If i wanted to be uber DoTr _001 I woulda rolled a necro or a shaman oh wait thats right rolled a shaman played em for awhile it gets boring unless you like to be lazy.
Buffs: We get some pretty damne good ones here they serve us just fine yeh we cant cast group buffs which chaps my ass like no other ( I do think we shoulda gotten a few group buffs like group kragg or group IoS since shamans are back on top with buffs since OoW) (yes I know we got group IoS but I think they took that away didnt they) but we can supply a tank or dps class with what they need if they dont have maxed stats we will very likely be able to max it with IoS and if that dont work good thing about IoS is that our str,dex,and sta stack with it and if that dont work we got sav/fero but if u are having to cast sav/fero on the tank to max his stats then he needs to be fired this day and age cause he dont need to be were u are prolly and he just sucks (dont blame this on peeps not havin great gear the gear u can buy in baz these days rivals time gear save the focuses and if you dont got the plat to buy baz gear you can farm LDoN and get that armour which isnt to bad actually) All in all I am glad we arnet best buffers I did the buffin as my shaman and it got monotnous and annoying to get tells all the time for can u buff me buff me buff me buff me. I am not saying u guys are bitching about buffs I know we are some very good buffers we evern topped shamans at one time before they got their new OoW spells and we still have very good buffs and they are still useful. As for me I just say make sav/fero last longer and lower the recast time on it hell its what made our class stand out. Oh and for the love of god extend the length of our haste cause it blows I dont even bother hasting sometimes cause it. as far as ranger buffs i would take em over my SV I just prefer the great increase in atk over the loss of like 100hp not like its gonna save me anyways that 100hp but SV over BSS anyday of the week unless I was raiding somthin like AL in ssra or some other mob with a nasty DoT then I could see were having more hp helps its purely situational.
Mana Regen: Hey we get some pretty good mana regen spells nuff said 9hp/mana regen a tick for like 45 min without SCR3 and full EE stuff I will take that anyday and I dont know a toon that wouldnt melee or caster. I dont care if a bard can do 20 a tick hes gotta sing it and he cant all the time hes gotta do other things I dont care if a chanter can do 18 a tick for like 2hrs they was designed for that. I cant really think of an upgrade for that except that SOE is dumb and went from 10 to what 11 on our last mana regen spell they should gone to 12 but hey they hate sexy bst I guess.
Funfactor: This is purely a personaly pref but I persoanlly enjoy playing my BL more than any other class I have ever played and I have played pretty much all of em. SK till 55 nope to dumb imo, all casters till like lvl 16 then said fuk that too stupid save a shaman who i got to 60 and never played a cleric, ranger nope they are gimp, and none have given me the joy of playing the BL we can do so much all by ourselves much like the necro but we have more fun at it imo. I dont think there is any class that has the versatility or can switch playstyles like the BL can and that is what our class is designed to do add versatility to anything a group or solo. Hybrids will never be great at any one thing they never have been and never will be in fact we were given a gift that set us apart from other hybrids in the fact that we get a massive stat buffer in fero and we get paragon no other class gets those and no other hybrid gets somthin that is all theirs.
This post wasnt a bash to you more experienced players (and you little people havent forgotten your 2cp :-D) I've learned alot from reading these boards and I am sure you could play me under the table on certain things and teach me alot its mostly my thoughts on what I think of the class as a whole so dont get all defensive like I klnow some of u elitist and know it alls get. And I know that most of you are happy with most of our class as a whole and that the main gripe is that we just dont do the dps that we used to and it hurts us in GoD and above cause we just arent needed in place of pure dps power cause of number issues and what not. As well as not being able to get groups well I personally dont have a problem getitng groups and if I cant find one I jsut go AA till i get one no use in sitten around poutin cause u cant find a group go do somthin contructive or logg off and find somthin else to do.
Yes our class needs a boost in MELEE DPS not DD dps not DoT dps fuk the buffs we are fine cept for maybe fero and haste need a little tweeking and slow a mod to it but thats it on spells no upgrades to DD dps its wasted we need an upgrade to melee dps not and not our pet so much as the BL itself the pet could use a little tweeking but thats it.
So Tastion I aint bitchin at you cause from what I hear you are doing a great job as our class rep and i've read some of your post and you seem knowledgable. I am sure you have alrdy sent this up to SEO in more forms shapes and fashions than kellogs make korn flakes but only thing I can give my 2cp on as an upcoming BL (only lvl 61 atm) is that we have our MELEE dps upgraded and fixed and thats it as far as dps goes.
If I got any facts wrong go head and correct em I dont know everything and I know some of you gonna flame there are always those few :evil:
well all i don't know how you ever learned to play a BL if you claim we arn't better then all the other classes ... 1 we don't need a healer all the time to keep us alive .. 2 rangers are only good for 1 thing when it comes to tanking a mob ... and thats a speedbump to slow the mob down ... i mean shoot i am such a good tank i can tank North Wall in WoS with a gimp cleric ... that and i also solo Wuoshi on Stromm ... Lodi became brodom after 62 : :-( so learn and challange yourself ... in WoW and in GoD we might be 3rd best slower for slowing a mob ... but when a mob don't slow down for max then we just as good as a shaman or enchanter on slowing ... not like there spell going to slow it even more .. just over write ours ... no diffrence other then a waste of mana for them..
Swippe Wuoshislayer
Stromm
member of Final Door
PS. rember not to be a stranger .... at least not stranger then me :evil:
Quote from: Swippe on December 22, 2004, 07:20:17 PM
well all i don't know how you ever learned to play a BL if you claim we arn't better then all the other classes ... 1 we don't need a healer all the time to keep us alive
Against any mob that a xp group at 70 will be killing you will need 1 if not 2 healers. If you're talking about soloing then yes we can solo reasonably well but not as well as other classes.
Quote from: Swippe on December 22, 2004, 07:20:17 PM.. 2 rangers are only good for 1 thing when it comes to tanking a mob ... and thats a speedbump to slow the mob down ...
Rangers have better mitigation, and the same avoidance AAs as us. If equally geared they're better tanks. By the way, weaponshield rocks in lots of situations and they're pretty good dps, better than ours.
Quote from: Swippe on December 22, 2004, 07:20:17 PMi mean shoot i am such a good tank i can tank North Wall in WoS with a gimp cleric
Yes well they only hit for what 6-800 there? A cleric should be able to keep any melee class alive against that.
Quote from: Swippe on December 22, 2004, 07:20:17 PM... that and i also solo Wuoshi on Stromm ... Lodi became brodom after 62 : :-( so learn and challange yourself
While this is fun it has no relevance to a balance discussion. These mobs are how old? Many different classes can solo them too.
Quote from: Swippe on December 22, 2004, 07:20:17 PM... in WoW and in GoD we might be 3rd best slower for slowing a mob ... but when a mob don't slow down for max then we just as good as a shaman or enchanter on slowing ... not like there spell going to slow it even more .. just over write ours ... no diffrence other then a waste of mana for them..
Incorrect. Even though the mob mitigates slow it does so proportionally. ie mitigates half of a 65% slow or half of a 75% slow. That means the difference between shammy slow and ours remains significant even on mitigating mobs. Slow mitigation only affects the usefulness of our slow when soloing. High magic resists a la MPG makes our slow pretty hard to use and not get aggro, and sticks rarely.
Beastlords are for the most part a nice well rounded balanced class, not the best at anything and not the worst with alot of utility. In the high end raid game they're well behind many other classes to the point where it needs fixing.
well i hate to burst your bubble but rangers in my guild if you knew my guild are much more better at getting turned into a speedbump when tanking then BL's .. mainly due to Pet bash + stun proc ... so hate to burst your bubble ... BL's take less dammage from same mob a ranger would tank :P learn the abilitys ... and ok so shaman is like 10% better then our slow ... migated ... what it becomes 2% better... lol ask any guildie of mine BL's rule ... and i can tank MPG ... and emerency tank RS ... i raid buff to 10k so i know i ain't the best BL out there ... and ask alot of tanks in FD would they rather have a shaman or BL in MPG / RS ... BL's rule ... DPS rules ... only thing they really want from a shaman in group there is buffs .... but when tank is 14k raid buffed ... 200 hp's aint' much of a loss to our guild tanks.
and in Woushi killing ... only seen 2 classes that can solo her ... palay and beastlord ... rangers are only good at dammage if mob don't beat them down first ... and if you get the melee vs of Woushi then it's pawned time to the ranger ... aka inc ranger gate ... caster verson is gimp as sin if you have the resists.. and hate to burst your bubble but Final Door is the highest end raiding guild on Stormm now ... Time flaged .. VT / VP / ST / KT and 1 final battle before Qvic... and in our guild BL's are required to join a BL channel on raids for being main slower on inc mobs so shamans don't drop as quick .. we are the CC and the ability to take a beating without doing dammage to the mob... we like cleric work togeather to make the class more uber then what people think we can do ... and i get alot of respect from my guildies due to they have seen what abilitys we can do if you think about it before you do it ... also getting fellow bl's to know what the plan is = $$$ ... rember this ... high end raiding guids arn't based on 1 person or 1 class ... but a bunch of people from the same class can make a big diffrence ... and mulit people from diffrent classes is what makes the raid happen
Swippe Woushislayer
Stromm
member of Final Door
PS. rember don't be a stranger ... at least not stranger them me :evil:
well I agree with ya on rangers not being better tanks than BLs THEY DO NOT MITIGATE BETTER trust me..as well dude Swippe we are good but you act like we are the fucking gods and cant be topped which just aint slow I really doubt that your guild is going to use you as a main healer if they have a shaman their that would just be dumb for one our slow gets bounced off the mob alot which can get annoying.
Wow.
Just to make it clear, you're not bursting my bubble, no matter how many times you repeat the phrase.
The only reason I replied to you was because you put misinformation up as fact in a post that began "well all i don't know how you ever learned to play a BL". It was too ironic for me not to reply I'm afraid.
Do I think bsts are a great class? Hell yes. Do I have trouble getting a group? Nope. Do I see any reason to take a shammy over a bst? Situationally perhaps, most often not.
Firstly rangers... A ranger with equivalent gear and AAs will have more AC than you and therefore will tank better than you period. Unless you're doing stuff so old you both have the AC softcap hit. If you're going to argue that then you're unaware of some key facts and I'd suggest you go read up on mitigation. Regarding pet bash and stun... pet bash doesn't land much, and pet stun happens for 1.5 seconds every proc if it isn't resisted and the mob is stunnable. That adds up to a pretty small tanking bonus. Especially since your pet is still bashing and stunning if the mob is being tanked by the ranger so it's not worth comparing.
Rangers out dps us, out tank us, and out heal us, which is fine because they don't have pets or slow worth speaking of. If you don't believe any of these facts that's up to you, but feel free to run a parse of youself and an equivalent ranger dpsing and tanking a dark blue mob and look at the results.
Secondly Slow. 10% different in slow (75%-65%) is equal to 40% more damage taken. Even mitigated that's still a big difference and well worth the mana especially in places like MPG - do the maths. Like I said, the problem for us in groups which is well documented is high MR, not slow mitigation.
Thirdly Wuoshi. Wuoshi has no relevance whatsoever to this at all. I know of plenty of other people who play other classes that can solo her, it's not hard. It has no bearing on how good/bad we or rangers are at all.
By the way, I'm in a raiding guild maybe 3 months behind yours in the content. I've raided from Yelinak all the way through NToV, Kael, Ssra, VT, PoP etc. I offtank and I preslow, I run the bst channel, and I know what we can do and so do my guildies. I'm also an officer and occasional raid leader so please, it's not necessary to try and explain that raids arent based on one person or class. None of this was relevant to the incorrect info you posted anyway.
Khayden
Khayd I aint postin this to bash ya so dont think so I agree with most of what you are saying o BST hell this is my long winded ass post that I made one mornin after not sleeping.
Rangers do heal better than us its their druid counterpart in them and they can have it we got better buffs and slow along with pet.
As far as tanking goes Khayd I am about were you are well kinda far behind my guild is fixing to go into VT here soon so I cant speculate on PoP raid mobs beatin up on me cept for the tier one ones. But on rangers tanking better I cant agree with you if my memory serrves me correctly we get a better def cap for one as well as def skills like dodge and riposte as well as block, now I dont know if they heavily raised rangers skills in these areas but last checked they were still lower I may be wrong (those def skills cant for somthin when added with the same AAs. Now my point to that is this, I was a 1 BL at the time and we were in sky doing some necro epic stuff (fukkin hate that plane btw its as annoying as fear with that damne imp) and there was one oof our rangers tere with us and he is lvl 65 so we are sitten there and deciding whos gonna tank before the war gets there cause he had some stuff to do so we ask each other hps and ac which were almost identical but he had a few more points in each nothin big only 10-20pts in hp and like 5-10 in ac so hes like I will tank I am like cool np I'll slow em and offtank the adds cause we ahd no chanter there at the time. So long story short they go in without me cause I had to go afk and it bein my first time in sky i didnt know what portal I was supposed to go to so I was a little late. Well the ranger dies I come in and take 2 of the mobs down before I go down and I had no healer and he did. Not sayin we are uber tanks cause we arent we are mana sponges just like rangers are but I just wont belive that rangers can out tank me till I see it. And you say equally geared well equally geared in my book just means hps and ac I dont care what kinda gear hes wearin if the ACs and HPs are the same then you are equally geared pretty much not totally though but those are the stats that matter for tanking.
But are BLs the best class out there I think so we got complete self suffiency and I like that for times when I dont feel like grouping.Oh and on the grouping thing people group with people they like not cause of their class that stuff only comes into play on raids so if you havin trouble findin a group its prolly cause your a fuktard or you are just to low of a lvl to be in that zone.
As well havent parsed this with my ew stun yet cause I am only 62 but I did parse my new lvl 62 pet with a mages pet lvl 61 air pet and they was about even with the air pet arely winning is taht cause of the air pets stuns and my pets SoFstun not being able to land or is that just the way its gonna be is that my pet is always gonna be lower than the mages. Will have to parse my pet when I get 63 and have new proc will let ya know
QuoteBut on rangers tanking better I cant agree with you
Shamelessy stolen from Steelwarrior.org (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868) (cut out all other classes because i couldnt get the formatting to look right )
CLS AC SHLD AVD DB DI AVG MIT% ATKS HIT% MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG
RNG 1728 2% 10 100 22.1 292.1 59.5 2359 48.5 43.5 NA 4.2 6.0 4.0 | 141.7BST 1432 0% 25 102 22.1 320.0 53.3 2119 47.8 41.9 10.2 3.7 NA 4.0 | 153.0Given comparable gear rangers will ALWAYS outtank beastlords. This table above shows that beastlord take more dmg than rangers, in fact beastlords take more damage than all other classes except for Clerics, shamans and druids and obviously the silk classes. This isn't to say that we suck because like almost everyone on this board i love my bst or else i wouldn't be playing him. This is only to debunk the fallacies being thrown around in a couple of the previous posts regarding our "uber" tanking abilities. Soloing we will do better because we have slow and a stunning pet but in any group/raid situation those dont even matter because they will be there regardless of who is tanking.
As far as slows go, i would much rather have a shaman slow than my own slow because the damage difference is a good deal even on mitigating mobs. Also i don't know what slow spell your using that you aren't seeing the kind of resists that i see making slowing in MPG/RS+ suck so much i dont want to be the person people rely on.
In the low end game beastlords are great (low end = BoTish), slows arent resisted much, our dps is comparable to other classes at same lvl (sometimes a little too high imo) and our tanking ability is pretty good. But as you progress to the high end (high end = Time+) all of this drastically decreases. Slow is bounced more times than it lands, our dps slides way down when compared to other classes of same lvl and while it is possible to tank in these higher zones it just isnt mana efficient to do it and have it be fun for the group for any length of time. (Not saying it is for rangers because it still wouldnt be)
Quoteor is that just the way its gonna be is that my pet is always gonna be lower than the mages
Your pet will always be lower than mage pets, in fact much much lower from what i have been able to parse in exp groups. Mage pets are putting out easily 1.5x dps as our pets.
Feralkin I appreciate what you're saying but as Cop used to remind everyone (including me!) you can't make assumptions based on simple observations, because there are way too many variables and too much data to take into account. The only way to actually tell the facts is to extensively collect tanking data and parse it, there's alot of this on steelwarrior as Urim linked if you're interested.
The thing about equal gear or equal HP/AC is the ease with which each class gets them. There are beastlords out there with over 12 or maybe even 13khp. To get that they have to be right at the end game, whereas a ranger can get that much earlier. It took me several elemental molds to get to 9k buffed, but the rangers in my guild that raid alot were there already without them and have significantly more AC than me, so I don't think the ranger who has the same hp/ac as me is equally geared, they're probably wearing ldon and droppable stuff.
Khayden
Umm, Swippe and Killian, there is a vast difference between what you think you know about the issues high end beastlords have and what issues high end beastlords have. I have oriented my gear around avoidance and AC, simply cause I have always liked having good ac. With me having over 2100 ac fully buffed, my ranger friend Luvann, who is EP + GoD trial + MPG trial equipped, can tank as well as if not better than me.
Oh for f's sake, it's christmas. At the pointy end of the game, our dps sucks. that is all. I might make my sig say something like that..
Merry Christmas, motherf'ers!
Oh no guys not sayin know about end game material cause I dont yet bein as I'm just now fixing to hit VT so I do listen to wha you guys are saying and take it into effect I'm just saying as of right now I dont see how rangers will out tank us being as I out tank them atm (slow being the key factor there, that is what makes us be able to tank imo) but it could very well change later on and I will have to wait till taht time to see it, I understand what you are saying that rangers will tank better because they are a chain class and we are a leather class but when it comes to mitigation I dont quite understand how we take more damage than all other classes except silk classes and maybe shamans because we get more avoidance skills along with our AAs so please explain this to me or is it taht SOE just made it so we take more dmg period prett much the way they nerfed monks back in the day with their mitigation.
As far as slow goes I see what your saying there I can land slows pretty damne wasy in BoT and what not but when I go to WoS and places like taht my slow gets bounced often which can get pretty annoying so I can imagine how annoying its going to get when I get into MPG and RSS and what not.
As far as DPS between rangers and Bst wonderin what that is going to entell because while I do agree that our DPS starts to slide down a bit I am starting to notice it going up atm but when you go up at some point your gonna come back down ya know so I am watiin on the lvl of game content that its gonna come to me (BLs being a Luclin era class I am guessing we start to slide down GoD and pretty much there after. But back on subject since our pet adds so much to our dmg do rangers still out dps us or are we about even considering that we can keep the pet alive which is pretty hard to do sometimes since one good AE from a higher end mob will drop em pretty fast.
And dont get me wrong I think SoE needs to give us an upgrade to our DPS not from our pet but to our DPS in general and maybe some dmg taking cuse I know I do take alot of dmg just dont see how I tkae more dmg than a ranger yet, but we'll see. I made that assumption once when I played a shaman and got pretty ripped up for it on the shaman boards for talking about stuff I didnt know for a fact so I dont do that anymore lol. Maybe SOE will give us an upgrade soon enough I remember when I used to play a SK on tallon and we were only good at PK cause they gimped us everywere else but then all the sudden we got a HUGE boost when PoP came out and after that I couldnt really say cause I dont play one anymore but they seem to be pretty decent tanks now from what I have seen.
CLS AC SHLD AVD DB DI AVG MIT% ATKS HIT% MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG
RNG 1728 2% 10 100 22.1 292.1 59.5 2359 48.5 43.5 NA 4.2 6.0 4.0 | 141.7
BST 1432 0% 25 102 22.1 320.0 53.3 2119 47.8 41.9 10.2 3.7 NA 4.0 | 153.0
Dunno how current this info is , maybe good for elemental lvl players but im pretty certain that it is very outdated for those who are past time and have any decent progresstion into god, oow, etc
As for what we are best at i honestly dunno , i do decent amounts of dps. average with my setup is about 200 for me and whatever the pet throws in , rangers that have access to the new bows from oow etc and even those that only have the ones from Elemental planes can still do some serious damage, but we can do many things. I spot heal on raids, buff, do dps i can even pull some zones but we are a support class , same as a ranger we can solo but its not really easy at the higher ends so we generally get groups. Then we get on the mobs back and wail the living tar out of them if you have a decent aug, like the imp damage V one from DoN and you have your good nukes from GoD and OOW you can hit with them for 2k plus
But imo we are not best at anything , we can tank some, heal some , slow some, even buff some but cant do any of those things the best, i dont play a beast to be the best dpser in my guild i play my character because its fun anyone can be a tank, run up pee on the mob and then hope you live, but i can dot, nuke, send pet in and laugh when others get summoned or smacked by the ramp :-D
We are best at clearing trash. Period. No other class comes close to the pure MOWING ability that a beastlord has in the Tasmanian Devil sense. Yes, some classes can solo some things better than we can. Sure, bigger mobs can be kited by bards and necro's that would chew us up as long as they dont summon, but NO ONE can sustain the carnage on on garbage as well as we can nor as fast as we can. On raids this also has its place, maybe we cant do it on raids *quite* as self-sufficiently but we are still fast-acting, fast-engaging, heavy dps from impact to death that doesnt stop, doesnt slow down, and rarely runs out of mana to do it.