Fero changes?

[Jkal_Shihar]

Actually, I dont believe in updating my mag every time I throw in something new. I sit right at 6k unbuffed. I have no problem with mana regen. The problem I have is sustaining fero on 3 mates who constantly want it plus slowing (I dont have the lvl 70 slow) so when I get a streak of reasisted slows and fizzle fero I'm done for. Yes, I could leave and join someone else but these are guys I group with from time to time with my wife.
She's even tried explaining and they will not pull or anything without my lowlylittle fero buff. So you tell me then, you wanna risk losing wife faction over something so silly and menial to just make them happy and wanted or be the anti social rogue player that cant advance anymore.
If its made group you have to look at it and make it exactly the same as fero and drop something from it that means squat. Which is why i said stamina. No added atk, or resists but something the group could use while tweaking with the mana.

[Jkal_Shihar]

jitathab posted while I was still typing. I think your right. Now if they did that I wouldnt mind it a bit. Even if they took off the stamina and added something else to it, probably would up the mana cost with the duration being longer. I think some could live with.

[Kanan]

As much as I'd love an increase in time, increase it's duration by a factor of 10 is not realistic.  These other things you are showing: ward = self only buff.  HoP = attack only buff.  Rest are resist buffs.

The point behind those buffs is extraordinarily different than the point behind fero. 

Sorry to be rude, but that blows my mind.  They will never change fero to be an hr long buff.  for one, that is 65 to ALL resists.  One of the big deal in GoD was the introduction of chromatic/prismatic resists so that peeps would have to have all their resists buffed up for a fight.  You honestly think they're gonna give the biggest single resist buff a 1hr duration?

Jkal.. if you feel like making a point to them, you can tell them, "nope.. hold pulls.. lom.. can't cast slow because I'm spending so much mana on fero."  "Ooops, sorry we wiped.. I'm too lom for slow bcs I'm casting fero."  "You want fero or slows?"  I really gotta ask.. what is their reasoning for having to have fero? It adds so lil to be of use on a pull.  I could understand having like hp buffs, or sow, or something that aids them in pulling.. but fero adds nothing to a pull.  they hit or not, that mob's gonna agro when they throw the star at em.

I've flat out told rogues I'm grouping with that they aren't gonna get fero in the xp group bcs I can't afford it with slowing & the pull speeds.  Good xp groups, i tend to stay abt 25-40% mana.  Saving that much so that I can attempt something resembling a burn if it start to get ugly.  That ain't room for fero.

Ferocity, savagery, etc has always been a single target buff.  Can we say that, in its original incarnation, it was a very powerful, effective buff?  I think, from reading through this thread, most would say yes.  Now it's effectiveness has tapered off.  The returns on it have decreased in far disproportion to the cost of it.  So we want it changed.  We all want it changed.  But lets be reasonable in what we ask for.  I'm one who likes to try to stick with some logic of a game, of a process, of the lore/idea behind a spell.  If we are wanting a totally new spell, that would require creating a new spell arc, we are asking far too much.  They will never just decide to write a new spell script just for one class.  The bitching & whining they would receive would be righteously ungodly.  I've got a magelo profile I call "Being Silly."  There I went through & chose the best of the best items.  Do I ever think I will see such things? Hell no.  I'm closish to end-game.. but I do have some realism in me.  We can wish that ferocity would be the absolute best buff in the game that makes us stand out over all other classes.  We'd then get smacked with the nerf bat as the rangers and magi and zerkers and shammy and... start complaining abt how over-powered we are once again.

I know what I'd like: Group fero at a 250 mana cost increase, 100 all resists, CE 50% increase rate, accuracy 25%, overhaste 5%, /tgb & mgb'able, stacks with everything.  What i expect and find a reasonable request: single targ, able to be cast out of group, 85+ all resists, no mana cost change, same attack buff, and replace stam with something useful, such as endurance regen 2 to 5.

I'm one that actually sorta likes casting it.  Our newest bst makes me a lil ashamed cuz she's like better than i was back in VT days when I was good.  I think she like cheats & stuff and actually uses timers, but still, she manages to keep it going almost constantly ;p  I got a thank you for hitting someone with it mid-fight (hit reply key & his name came up so i checked if he'd asked for it & hit him with it) last night.  Sorta felt good :)

[Grbage]

If you wanted to maintain a group version of fero at all times it would presumably eat a lot of mana (assuming it is in the 2k range). But, would you have to keep it up at all times?

Currently we have to get a fero rotation going and keep it going the entire raid IF you want to ensure it is up on everyone when needed. With a group version you can just cast it as the raid target is engaged and let it wear off or refresh again if the fight is still going on (mana permitting). No one really needs fero while clearing trash in a raid unless they are trying to impress others on attk/resists numbers.

[jitathab]

You missed my point then, given the individual components available from other classes currently in Fero the cost is already insanely high for what it does.  

I used in the calcs HoP for the atk and DA component and then added the costs to the resist spells, to create a DIY Fero from the effects those spells have.
Then looking at the equivilant mana cost for the DIY version and current Fero it shows we pay a great deal of extra mana for it.

Therefore I concluded, we pay 5-6 times as much as we should for this spell. And therefore adding group could be done for no mana increase at all.

I honestly dont think they would give us a 1hr Fero either, im demonstrating how out of whack the spell is in comparison.
To go on a bit more, you can buy 48 to all resists in DoN from Augs, so SOE obviously dont pay that much weight to resists any more.
All DoN dragons I have played with ignore your resists anyway.

And no I didnt take your comments as rude :)

[Jkal_Shihar]

Jkal.. if you feel like making a point to them, you can tell them, "nope.. hold pulls.. lom.. can't cast slow because I'm spending so much mana on fero."  "Ooops, sorry we wiped.. I'm too lom for slow bcs I'm casting fero."  "You want fero or slows?"  I really gotta ask.. what is their reasoning for having to have fero? It adds so lil to be of use on a pull.  I could understand having like hp buffs, or sow, or something that aids them in pulling.. but fero adds nothing to a pull.  they hit or not, that mob's gonna agro when they throw the star at em.

Sure, you wanna tell them that. And then have your wife pissed at ya for the entire night cause there just sitting there. To me its just a game, but to some its what they do. I can say those things no prob. But when your trying not to be an ass in front of your wife's guildee's and want to become fast friends you make sacrifices. Like has been mentioned time and time again, everyone has there own playstyle. And Ive tried making that point, guess what they sat there for quite awhile till I gave in and casted it on them.
Some think it gives them an egde, so I am not gonna argue. I just wanna play and have fun with my wife when we play.

[Bengali]

Some of you people need to learn how to say no when people ask you for a buff.  It's easy for me since I'm naturally ornery, but I'm sure the rest of you could get the hang of it too

I would agree but unfortunately a few of the people i group with are the pullers and will not pull without fero on them. Even if I am conserving mana. There are still some that see a return on this buff. I know your gonna say just disband but they are in game friends. And I'm not one for pissing them off.
All I want to see is the 70 one made a group with something added and take the stamina off. Leave the other one alone. I know the issues of mana ratio to casting. Sucks fizzling on fero 3 times also. I'd rather spend 1k mana to buff a whole group and bite my lip when i watch ppl click it off that dont need it then trying to do a 4 person rotation. Even with an EE aug it lasts 10mins for me which i can handle alot more then the rotation.
My stats arent the greatest (no raid guild, actually guildless again) so I do keep it on me for the resists and atk mod mainly. I still dont have the burst pet either, cant find anyone that I know who wants to do the progression and most on my server when your looking for a group would rather do monster missions or something that involves farming for anguish.
Sorry if it turned a bit rantish but not everyone has the perfect group, max stats, or people they can rely on that knows bout your mana/spell set up.

There are a couple of issues here.  The first is that my comment isn't directed toward people like you who already cast Fero on certain people for whatever reasons.  It's directed at those who seem to be afraid that making the spell more useful means they will be inundated with requests for it and somehow be forced into casting it on everyone who asks for it, and therefore be left without enough mana do do dps or heal or whatever else they want to save up their mana for.  But if they increase the value of Fero while keeping it single target and the same mana cost, then you aren't any worse off than you were before -- you just keep on casting it on the people that you cast it on now.

The second is that that you're assuming a group version of fero would be a lot less expensive than it would really be.  For example, you mentioned that you'd rather spend 1k mana to buff the entire group.  The problem is there literally is no way the devs would do that.  It would probably cost AT LEAST twice that for a group version, which will hurt you even more.  Now you're talking about 2k+ to buff the entire group, and your pullers are *still* going to want you to buff them every 10 minutes and sit there until you do.

You also mentioned that fizzling fero 3 times in a row sucks.  I agree.  However, the problem is that you'll fizzle the group version 3 times in a row just as often, and that sucks a LOT more, especially if your stats aren't the greatest as you said.  That's even if you get lucky and only have to pay 1k for group fero.

When talking about group buffs (this is a general comment for the thread, btw -- not directed at Jkal) everyone needs to consider how the *devs* look at them, and think of the big picture.  Right now a single beastlord can maintain a 4 person rotation (with some effort).  Assuming nothing else changes about fero, making it group (but not mgb) means that one beastlord can keep up a 4 *group* rotation, and 2-3 beastlords could keep fero on an entire raid of people if they wanted.

That then means that the devs have to start assuming that everyone on the raid will have it, and encounters that were tuned on the assumption that most people would have x resists now have to be tuned to assume that people have (x +65) resists.  Let's not understate this -- Fero is a buff that adds 65 to all resists, and it stacks with everything.  It's not a game-breaking buff right now because it can't be put on a whole lot of people without sacrificing a whole lot of slots to add beastlords, but all of that changes once you make it a group spell.  It means that raid leaders who don't pressure beastlords to cast Fero on everyone they can (because it can't be cast on that many people no matter what) will start pushing beastlords to fero everyone, simply because it can be done and most of the time 65 to every resist doesn't hurt.  So *that* plays a huge role in how much mana that kind of spell would cost, and it's why expecting Fero to change to a group spell without a massive increase in mana cost just isn't realistic.  That change would actually pushes us more toward being buffbots -- the more convenient it is to buff someone, the more people expect to get bufffed by it.  And while I definitely said you can just say no to buffing, it's a lot harder to tell your raid leader that you can't keep fero on 3 entire groups because you want to save mana for your swarm pet or your self/pet-only buff.  :)

Moreover, if we push for it to go to a group spell but miraculously managed to convince the devs not to triple the mana cost, then the spell would end up being jacked in other ways.  In order to prevent the entire raid from being buffed by 2 beastlords, they might change it so that you can only cast it on members of your own group.  That would cause all sorts of issues with people.  Or maybe they increase the recast so that you can cast it on 1-2 groups because the recast of the spell is as long as or longer than the duration.  That means that it's even more costly when someone runs out of range while you're casting.  It also means that if you don't have the spell memmed for whatever reason, then when you do mem it you have to wait 3+ times as long before you can start casting it, and so on.

Finally, for those who suggest that group fero would make it easier to keep up the 4-person rotation with just one cast, that's true -- IF all those people are in the same group.  Sometimes you can't keep all the rogues and monks and zerkers and whomever else in one group, and then trying to keep it on those same people when they are in different groups because they need to be with curers/healers, etc., could involve casting it on a whole lot of people you wouldn't have cast it on before, which is inefficient.

[Sithasoule]

keep it single target, give us an incresed chance to proc on it (CE).

that gives us a big dps boost both solo and in a group

I really cant think of a simpler way to help us out.

Btw, i see only adjusting FoI and not the lower feros as a very elitest approach, low lvl bsts are also underpowered imho, lets adjust our desirability over the whole range

[Tastian]

I think a few people are still cluttering the facts with details here as well.  I mean people talking about extra mana elsewhere is just extra options.  When I'm solo'n I don't CB, FM, Growl, DoD pet, 3 nuke chain every mob.  Heck when I solo I either throw out a pet every couple mobs or growl every mob(depending what I'm doing) and that's about it.

Ever been on a raid without a bard?  Really noticeable diff for me and my playstyle.  The extra options don't translate into definitely using or doing more.  In fact, some changes are built around the idea that you simply can't do it all.  That's part of why mana regen is one of the biggest balancing points for EQ. 

A better fero would mean we might use more mana fero'n, and we might use less mana elsewhere.  That is only happening if we are actually gaining more from fero though.  No bst is going to fero an afk, drum and lute holding bard.  If a bst chooses to fero a rogue it's because the fero on the rogue is better than the mana for the nuke.  This doesn't just mean dps either, which is what some people miss.  I've fero'd the MT, I've fero'd clerics, I've fero'd pulls(<3 firetail), etc. 

Some people are talking like gaining fero means they lose something, but they only lose in one aspect if they gain *OVERALL*.  That overall gain can be utility, it can be "total dps contribution to raid/group", it can be a viable option for various situations.

Someone mentioned that bst were kinda lame on mana useage for awhile and that's very true.  I see the options as a good thing though and not a bad thing because in different situations different things will be better/worse. 

A better fero doesn't mean we have to fero everyone, but means that in many cases the option to fero might actually be just that, an option.  Many bst could choose to not do it still or to just use it on themselves.  One of the big things with EQ though is you simply can't balance around some situations.  I mean an annoying group, or a cranky wife, or whatever(no offense to any of the before mentioned), but that's part of what people do with it.  We've all had schitty warriors in our groups, you can't totally balance tanking around a tank that spams "taunt" and does bellow or terror or anything.  Fero is hard to balance(especially a group version) because of potential.  The single target version is easier to balance because there is a harder cap on how many it can be on and in what situations.  A long duration fero just isn't going to happen and the single target version ideas just don't fit with what fero has been and seem more like a personal request.  Maybe requesting a level 70 ward of hunter type buff for bst, to help with buff slots and mana, such that we got fero + frenzy + SA or something out of it.  *shrugs* 

[Grbage]

"Btw, i see only adjusting FoI and not the lower feros as a very elitest approach, low lvl bsts are also underpowered imho, lets adjust our desirability over the whole range"

It's not an elitist attitude actually. Most higher level bst already have max sta and 2k+ attk, attk over 2k has very small return. That means Fero basically gives higher end bst 65 on all resists and nothing else for a high mana cost. The lower level/stat bst are still seeing a nice gain from Fero.

[Sithasoule]

I dont think you could deny that a CE or similar bonus on the lower feros would be an advantage.

The people i group with are lvl 70 and have max atk so my fero is useless there, we dont all group with ppl the same lvl as we are.

[Sithasoule]

not sure if this is *exacxtly* the right forum, you may wish to move this.

Inmy newb opinion, people seem to think that beastlords have no dps issues befoer they reach lvl 70 and raid regularly.

I think thats wrong, simply, i have many dps issues at 68 and i dont raid.
I`m regularly out dps`d by warriors and hybrid tanks.

just a footnote for those not so focused on the end game that have to deal with sub par performance in regular dps groups.
its not all about the time/OoW geared player.

[Shieara]

I really don't see lower level beastlords as underpowered.  In the casual arena we are actually still quite a powerful class, assuming you are comparing us to similarly geared/aa'ed toons.  Besides which, I don't know very many lower level beastlords who already have 2k attack and maxed resists.  I mean I am a sort-of raider and I still don't hit 2k attack unless I sneak into the dps group which has a bard.  The stamina is a little shakier these days, especially considering the gear available through DoN/OoW.  That's why I advocate leaving the level 65 fero alone, or at the least only changing the stamina component.  It's not elitist, it's just the opinion that the buff is doing what it is intended to do at the appropriate levels.

As far as the single target/group debate goes, I would prefer a single target buff.  This is for a couple reasons.  First, I think it allows SoE to give us a more powerful buff because of the limitation that it won't be able to be used on everyone.  Second is a mana cost issue.  I think a group version of the buff would be very prohibitive mana-wise.  A single target version lets me choose if I think it is essential to fero four people, two people, or just myself depending on what I think my mana will be needed for later on.  A group version means I am stuck with shelling out x mana regardless of what may be on the horizon.

Beastlords, imo, have always been more mana-intensive then other hybrids.  Just look at the buffs we use growing up.  We have IoS, focus, stamina, strength, dex, sow, sv, spiritual line, maybe ac buff, and then for the pet IoS, haste, and the proc buff.  This is in addition to slowing past level 20 and our nukes and dots.  Needless to say I don't use all of these at 70, but still it has always been a balancing act for us as long as I remember.  With growl and the DoD pet it is a lot easier for us to dump mana, but it is just a balancing act.  And really it's the same for other classes.  If a druid goes full bore on dps they can run oom pretty fast, but they lay off because they know thier mana will be needed for other things.

Jkal I really don't know what to tell you.  I mean, I think you have to realize that the majority of players aren't in your situation and playing with a bunch of dillweeds (not your wife but her friends...sorry they sound like gimps to me).   If it were me I would just take over pulling duties and problem solved, but I can be a jerk sometimes so...

[Tastian]

"I think thats wrong, simply, i have many dps issues at 68 and i dont raid.
I`m regularly out dps`d by warriors and hybrid tanks."

You need to offer some proof first of all, not just your opinion.  Also you have to offer relevant proof which many fail to offer.  I know times where rogues are out dps'd by beastlords.  I know zerkers that are out dps'd by warriors.  You have to look at AA, progression, *WORK AND PLAYSTYLE*.  I've busted more than a few rogues who for some reason have a 60% slower refresh on backstab than every other rogue.  I see bst with weapons in wrong hand.  With 200AA and no BF, but maxed combat fury.  I see all sorts of things that naturally skew results.  Heck some bst are main slowing and fero'n 3 people, that will skew data.  If you are slowing then your dps goes down, healing it goes down, playing shammy with buffs/haste/etc it goes down.  Take a beast in a pure dps role for a few hours, then take a class X in the same pure dps role(with reasonable AAs, gear, buffs!!) and see what happens.  Also keep in mind % and ratios.  There's nothing I like more than someone explaining to me how the X out dps'd them by 20dps when they are doing over 200dps. 

Please feel free to parse it and get me some logs.  It's not that I don't want low end changes, but every *GOOD* parse I've ever seen has shown lower end bst dps(even in recent times) to be reasonable and in some cases still quite high.  As always I welcome more data.

[Rekirts]

The two top beastlords of my guild (I'm one of em) are always on the top of the dps list on raid mobs like vangl. If you have good gear and aa's, you have no problem with DPS....unless you plain out do not know how to play your class.

Rekirts Darigaz