Thought we could consolidate all the SoF spells bugs queries in one thread to make tracking and answering easier. Please feel free to add, correct or answer as you see fit. Not all these findings/opinions are mine but what I have seen posted by various beastlords whilst reading the forums.
Will also x-post it to the SoE boards and maybe more will be added.
1.) DoTs - We received 2 once again after a lot of beastlords saying many times that they no longer use them in any form. With so many good ides put forward pre beta (like a self only proc) is there any chance of these being changed?
2.) Bulwark of Tri'Qaras - The recourse overwrites Pet Haste. Is this meant to be?
3.) Peerless Penchant - The Group Haste recourse only lasts 13mins (Rk I). Any chance this can be made longer?
4.) Spiritual Epiphany - Rk I is 13 mana/hp a tick, the same as Spiritual Enlightenment Rk. III. Yet Rk II is 16 mana/hp a tick, can we get Rk I raised to 14 mana/hp?
5.) Growl of the Puma - I use this line as a DPS increaser, this spell has no DPS or duration increase over the previous version for over 200 extra mana. Is this the final format for this spell?
6.) Lockfang Jaws - This is
exactly the same as our level 75 version (Steeltrap Jaws) according to lucy. Surely this spell is being changed?
7.) Lockfang Jaws - Steeltrap Jaws has the well know proc bug (any proc counts as a Steeltrap Jaws proc). Seeing as Lockfang Jawsl is exactly the same I assume it suffers from the same bug or have they managed to fix it? Last feedback we received from a Dev was that they didn't know how to fix it.
8.) Ruthless Ferocity - Multiple queries made about this spell line in the lead up to SoF and each time the Devs responded with the fact that they had no real way to make this spell worthwhile.
Quote<Prathun> Ferocity is a good example of a spell that's decayed in usefulness over time to do caps (both softcaps and hardcaps) on stats and effects. I would be interested in making upgrades to Ferocity more appealing in the future, but that will probably require at least a small amount of focused code and design work.
The Devs have also stated that there were no more effects they could add to spells
Quote[20:31] <Destinova> *QuinnotetiquanBrell* Any update on any ideas to make Beastlords Ferocity useful?
[20:33] <Prathun> Most of the effects that can increase melee effectiveness are now capped, offer diminishing returns, or don't work for all melee.
[20:34] <Prathun> It will be difficult to approximate the kind of impact that attack power originally had when Ferocity was introduced, without some serious code / system intervention.
[20:34] <Prathun> But I will see what we can do to make the Ferocity line, and other spells like it, useful.
Yet in the most recent Dev Chat Prathun said
QuoteEQ_Prathun: Another option is to add additional effects to existing spells when I upgrade them.
We received another spell in the line this expansion with no additional effects. What has been changed to suddenly make this spell worthwhile and did any beta testers do parsing on the spell? Probably worth pointing out that Shamans once again did not receive an upgrade to their level 70 spell Champion.
Add away :roll:
The new poison DoT is actually worth a look at using. Was messing around with Falrazim's Gnashing Rk. II in group content (had a rogue using Guide of Toxicity Rk. II on me) and I was getting from 500-800 damage a tick. Just off the cuff analysis would say that its probably worth using if you have below Demi weapons and a nice poison focus but better parsing would be required.
Wouldnt mind seeing an increase to the peerless penchant recourse time but after playing and living with it for a week I think this is a pretty low priority change. It still beats casting celerity multiple times.
Growl of the puma has more total HP and a larger HoT, those cant be left out of the discussion. Are they worth the extra mana cost? Depends on your raid environment, little boost is always nice in heavy AE environments. Yes it still only adds 20% damage modifier but it is still the largest straightup damage multiplier in the game. As you noted champion (a melee DPS staple) received no upgrade, I'd wager good money both of these were deliberate actions by the Devs.
The new ferocity is Vicious Ferocity not Ruthless. I consider wurine their offset to us against their inability to figure out how to add extra mods to Ferocity. With the combat changes in SoF, attack actually does make a bigger difference then what we are use to, exactly how much of a difference has yet to be parsed. Probably need to parse that before we re-engage the devs on ferocity.
It still looks like we are the only class that can cast invis and not have a duarion invis. some have to undead some just reg invis.. give us a ~5 min duration to ALL mobs (undead included).. make it unique being we getting no kind of invis worth casting. can even make it self only..
It's going to take parsing against SoF mobs to find out if Fero does any good or not. According to my understanding from the parse freaks there is no actual programmed soft cap for attk, what we have is a point of diminishing returns from attk vs mob AC. Mobs AC has been stagnate since GoD(?) I believe which is what has made fero become less and less useful.
Now, the devs stated during beta they were finally going to increase mob AC this go around instead of massively inflating hp's. They also stated this would make attk buffs once again more usefull (remember rangers are in the same boat). At a guess, I think the group geared/low raid tier bst will be getting a decent bump from fero but that the higher raid geared bst wont see any difference.
I don't think rangers are entirely in the same boat. The two buffs they routinely use are SotG and Gnarl of the Predator, SotG is just attack and hp's and is their alternative to brells / SV. Gnarl however has seen a move away from just attack and had a DA mod added to it back with OoW.
I think fero needs to see some mod on it as the dev's admitted they didn't get to look into Fero like they wanted to during beta. Maybe add a +rake, +flying kick, +frenzy mod or something but I think you're right. Lower geared players will probably see better returns than high end players. Even then this may be reduced due to the inflation in group attainable gear that players can get.
Rashere did state that the AC changes weren't going to be enough to affect those players w/ say, 3k atk or more...they might make a more visible difference between 2k and 2.5k though. So yeah...chances of seeing an impact for raiders is fairly minimal.
My thoughts, PMed to Prathun (though we know how that went) run along the lines of:
Slot X: Increase Chance to Hit with All Skills by XX%
Slot X: Increase Spell Shielding by 3%
Slot X: Increase DoT Shielding by 3%
I'm not sure if it's quite doable like that atm, but it would be a small accuracy boost on those we cast it on, and would also bring a worthwhile defensive component back, there to help players who aren't capped on those mod2s.
I think it would work /shrug.
The only thing that would get me to use SoF Fero as it stands would be a greatly increased duration...say 30 or more minutes. I mean, if even the devs acknowledge it doesn't do much for even average-equipped level 80 people, why not increase its duration?
with sub 3k attack, fero is a 40+ dps increase, I have parses to show for it over 5 hours.
Quote from: Humlaine on December 05, 2007, 07:46:42 AM
with sub 3k attack, fero is a 40+ dps increase, I have parses to show for it over 5 hours.
One would assume that 40+ dps is only on SoF? :roll:
You missed the point. The point wasn't Fero vs no Fero -- anyone can make their own call on that. The point was the dubious improvement of SoF Fero over a lower-level Fero. All I said is instead of increasing nearly useless numbers, try increasing the duration instead to impart value.
The old Fero's are MUCH cheaper to cast, last longer (with existing focuses), and will never fizzle (due to Mastery of the Past AA's). In other words, the increased costs exceed the increased value of the "upgraded" spells. Personally, I'm at the point that even the oldest Fero caps my remaining resists. The stamina portion has been useless for years. All that's left to measure is the difference in attack bonuses. Have you done any parses on the difference?
Quote from: Humlaine on December 05, 2007, 07:46:42 AM
with sub 3k attack, fero is a 40+ dps increase, I have parses to show for it over 5 hours.
Details, please?
Class
Weapons/augs
Target
Level
AAs/mod2s/etc
My point is - it might be 40 dps for you. But, there's only a handful of Beastlords across Everquest that can put out the same kind of melee dps that you can. So, what could a 2.5/tonfa using bst expect? How about an anguish-level zerker? If it does provide a nice return now, we need to get some parameters for it...approximately XX dps for this class/content/weapons to app. XX dps for this class/content/weapons.
so i was curious about our Howl at the Moon RK II spell. I was messing around the other day with both Bark and Howl and found that they both do the same base dmg (250). When I add my Demi pet focus item, my Bark at the moon gets up to 302 base dmg but Howl only gets up to 288 base dmg. They both have the same percentage in proc'ng 4 pets so if i'm testing this right...our lvl 75 Bark at the Moon is stronger then our lvl 80 upgrade.
Has anyone else tested this?
Max hit is worthless as a rubric - you need to parse the actual damage that it's doing.
QuoteMax hit is worthless as a rubric - you need to parse the actual damage that it's doing.
Maybe parsing will prove more accuracy on new pet or maybe not. But why would devs make new pets hit for less? The only explanation would be to make swarm pet upgrade very minimal to keep us muted on the subject and to make sure all other classes are happy at the same time. I don't know what the real dps of the new pet is, but to me it makes no difference in the fight and from observation of the hits, it looks like they hit for less dps. I compare rk.2s spells with Anguish focus.
Quote from: Pindol on December 05, 2007, 08:22:54 PM
QuoteMax hit is worthless as a rubric - you need to parse the actual damage that it's doing.
Maybe parsing will prove more accuracy on new pet or maybe not. But why would devs make new pets hit for less? The only explanation would be to make swarm pet upgrade very minimal to keep us muted on the subject and to make sure all other classes are happy at the same time. I don't know what the real dps of the new pet is, but to me it makes no difference in the fight and from observation of the hits, it looks like they hit for less dps. I compare rk.2s spells with Anguish focus.
Hi, conspiracy theory.
Eyeballing things usually means nothing. Humlaine so far found about a 50dps increase in preliminary parsing. Take that as truth, or bring your own parses.
We do guild parses quite often and last Solteris Orc my new howl at the moon rk2 parsed for around 250dps compared to the usual 145 bark at the moon rk2 does. It was kinda easy to compare since i was the only one with hatm, the other beastlords in guild had only batm rk2.
There is of course a big variance in those numbers depending on group setup. For example i had a zerker and a shaman in my group, but not a bard which can increase swarm pet dps by quite a bit with the proc song they sometimes use.
Oh, and our new pet parsed around 500 dps, however i disced so that figure is of course higher than non-disced gameplay.
I have one odd parse with bark at the moon though where it parsed over 700 dps on veldyn the shade, however i was extremely lucky that parse with nearly all casts being proc casts with 4 pets.
QuoteHi, conspiracy theory.
Eyeballing things usually means nothing. Humlaine so far found about a 50dps increase in preliminary parsing. Take that as truth, or bring your own parses.
Parse it with the anguish focus or less then we can talk Mr. Big Shot
So far the parses coming from the top raiders using Dreadspire or better focus. Your sarcasm is not helping here. Swarp pet hits for less with min, max and crits and it's a legitimate question about its dps overall. Maybe its the focus problem or the accuracy makes up for the lower hits, but since the class rep and Mr. Big Kahuna are so sure I am mistaken without taking few things under consideration then let it be.......personally I don't care. I have noticed something and posted my observation for discussion ...not for sarcasm.
Take care all
Quote from: Pindol on December 05, 2007, 08:22:54 PM
QuoteMax hit is worthless as a rubric - you need to parse the actual damage that it's doing.
Maybe parsing will prove more accuracy on new pet or maybe not. But why would devs make new pets hit for less? The only explanation would be to make swarm pet upgrade very minimal to keep us muted on the subject and to make sure all other classes are happy at the same time. I don't know what the real dps of the new pet is, but to me it makes no difference in the fight and from observation of the hits, it looks like they hit for less dps. I compare rk.2s spells with Anguish focus.
I am sure it was the mages board where I read this. I think it was their CC posted who with regard to this same question that whilst hits where for less they hit more often and this dps was higher.
TBS beta I parsed BatM and its accuracy was in hte low 60's from memory, I actually think the previous spell had higher accuracy than it.
As to why the devs would do that is anyone's guess especially considering it is a spell but my assumption would be because that was they did with npc's, hit for less but hit more often.
Our pets often follow general NPC rules, so that's quite possible.
One thing I'd always found interesting is the the BE pet seemed to gain agro more than the BatM pet (yes, I stilll don't even have that one yet ;p). My thought, just now, was that it was probably related to BE being lower level (since a mino in loping has landed a finishing blow on it). Thoughts there?
Where I'd seen the agro comparison was on the DK enforcers. Not tried elsewhere.
Quote from: Pindol on December 06, 2007, 09:19:17 AM
So far the parses coming from the top raiders using Dreadspire or better focus. Your sarcasm is not helping here. Swarp pet hits for less with min, max and crits and it's a legitimate question about its dps overall. Maybe its the focus problem or the accuracy makes up for the lower hits, but since the class rep and Mr. Big Kahuna are so sure I am mistaken without taking few things under consideration then let it be.......personally I don't care. I have noticed something and posted my observation for discussion ...not for sarcasm.
You are the one who thinks there's a problem, and brings nothing to the table to prove that there is, and then wants us to do the work to prove it for you? Parsing is easy - hit /log on for a night. Halfway through, switch to the older spell. Download GamParse (link on these boards), and see what dps the spells were doing.
QuoteParse it with the anguish focus or less then we can talk Mr. Big Shot
I might if I could (well, probably not), but I can't. I neither have Servant of Chaos focus, nor am I level 80. For that matter, I don't have BatM pet (never finished up pirate faction once I came back into game). I'm probably going to milk at least a couple hundred AAs out of RSS before I let those mobs go light blue, so it'll be a while.
QuoteI don't know what the real dps of the new pet is, but to me it makes no difference in the fight and from observation of the hits, it looks like they hit for less dps.
Or, if it makes no difference what the actual dps is, why bother?
pertaining to swarm pets, ours are fine, and doing the correct DPS atm, as for other spells the general rule for this expansion is rk 1 is equal to RK3's of TBS and TSS
Quote from: Humlaine on December 08, 2007, 12:38:57 AM
pertaining to swarm pets, ours are fine, and doing the correct DPS atm, as for other spells the general rule for this expansion is rk 1 is equal to RK3's of TBS and TSS
I noticed this about the rkI spells from this expansion and the rkIII from the 2 previous expansions. I kind of wondered why since the rkIII, if I remember correctly were raids spells, would be outdated so very quickly. I.E. 1 expansion later.
For example: Ancient Savage Ice (lvl 70 anguish raid level spell) was not upgraded until we hit lvl 74 with the TSS expansion and gained Spiked Sleet a non-raid buyable from a vendor spell, 4 expansions later.
Another thing I've noticed is that the spells from TSS and TBS were both upgraded in this single expansion. This made me question since I have not finished exploring the TBS expansion yet (I haven't gotten enough faction for ally) Why would I continue playing TBS if I can get the same or better rewards in SoF which was released only a few months later?
For example: Bark at the Moon rkI or rkII (neither of which I have) is outdated by a droppable Howl at the Moon rkI (I do have) (dropped by A Steamsuit or An Enhanced Steamuit in The Steam Factory) a single expansion later.
I'm not complaining about being able to ~upgrade~ easier than before but just questioning why.
Not all of the TBS spells (or for that matter, DoD even) have been upgraded since their inception. Druids have a couple which haven't, (and for one, which "never" will) be upgraded.
Ice nukes: Upgraded at lvl65 expansion, lvl70 expansion, lvl75 expansion, lvl80 expansion. Same story as before, but we'll be getting those bread and butter upgrades each expansion now, since they're all level increasing expansions.
The reason for the overlap is to narrow the gap from groupers to raiders, it has always been a fine line between where the raiders should be over the groupers, I myself like the rewards from raiding, while others like grouping more then raiding, both are equally fine, and I am glad they finally narrowed the spell gap this expansion, as to previous ones I thought the gap was a bit too much in the spell department.