I know you are better than this xal...

[Eatbugs]

Mages are one of the primary solo classes

Mages haven't been one of the primary solo classes since, um - ever.  It's always been possible to solo as a Mage, (at a reduced rate of experience from grouping) but even before Beastlords Mages took second (or third) place solo to Druids, Necromancers, Shaman and Wizards.

If you started a Mage thinking you were going to be soloing a lot, apparently the rude shock hasn't hit yet.

[Kitvear]

Mages are one of the primary solo classes

Umm, where did you get that from?  My chanter  can charm solo from hell and back but does that make chanters a prime solo class?

Necro's are THE prime solo class, rez, fd, summon corpse, dots, pets, heals, undead mezz, undead slow, snare.

Just about every class can solo but it takes a little more then someone simply proclaiming that they are something before SOE is gonna make mages even more powerful then they already are.  

Why am I ever bothering to reply, go head and give mages everything, then we all will just roll up mages.  No need for any other class in the game if mages get everything they ask for, lets all just play our SUPERMAGE toon and solo everything.

[feralize]

Trying to say that wizard utility is up to par with mage utility is a joke.

I mean for a minute there I thought you were being serious when you claim that average crowd-control, outdated ports (with the advent of PoK) and a bunch of self-buffs which help no-one but the wizard were equal to all that a mage can do.

EDIT: Oh wait, we have Evac   :?

[cougerofeq]

I agree with you on one point - BST tank and their pets DPS. I also agree that it makes no since for the warders to be lowest in mitigation and DPS.

Since we tank for them they should have the higest DPS and Mage pets the highest mitigation since you add alot of DPS for them, but need them to tank for you. What gets on my nerves is that Mages then say, "NO, you can't have the best DPS pets because our pets are supposed to be the best in the game". So we have fallen behind the DPS curve and currently you have the best DPS and mitigation for your pets. On top of that it seems more is needed for mages to boot. Thats why I dissmiss mages so quickly.

We got almost nothing from the patch that upgraded Mages - the patch even stated we got less. ( though not how much less and it was alot)

[Noxdowne Draggout]

The advantage Mage pets have is based in utility and situational dps.

We have one warder that does the same thing everytime.

We have a warder that is a true hybrid pet:

Jack of all trades and master of none.

Mages have pets that are designed to be used in different scenario's and for that I am envious.

Would I trade my Beast for a Mage instead?

Nope.

Nox

[Bengali]

Bengali,
I haven't actually seen many *defencive comparison* parses of mage pets and warders post 2nd round mitigation changes, would appreciate a link to such, if you'd be so kind? :)

The funniest thing about this is that it was Xalmat's post that started this whole thread, and Xalmat not only linked to the parses (but conveniently ignored some things about them to conclude the opposite of what happened) but he had a whole section in his manifesto about them.

[Silverblade-T-E]

Bengali,
Have any *beastlords here on these forums* done any comparative parses? :) Why just rely on Xalamat's analysis, which however good it maybe, could still be wrong?
i.e. you always need plenty of samples before reaching conclusions on statistical analysis.

Combination of Slowed and Unslowed Beastlord Parse Average 'hit' Damage: 329
Average 'hit' Accuracy: 63.9%
Average 'hit' DPS: 137.98
Overall Average Damage: 302
Overall Average Accuracy: 64%
Overall Average DPS: 144.47

Completely Slowed Beastlord Parse
Avg 'Hit' Damage: 420
Avg 'Hit' Accuracy: 59.4%
Avg 'Hit' DPS: 76.5%
Overall Average Damage: 386
Overall Average Accuracy: 58.2%
Overall Average DPS: 78.8

Now take this parse for Magicians.

Rathe's Son Defensive
Avg 'Hit' Damage: 255
Avg 'Hit' Accuracy: 65.6%
Avg 'Hit' DPS: 140.46
Overall Average Damage: 235
Overall Average Accuracy: 65.7%
Overall Average DPS: 149.28

Ward of Xegony Defensive
Avg 'Hit' Damage: 277
Avg 'Hit' Accuracy: 62.6%
Avg 'Hit' DPS: 146.80
Overall Average Damage: 255
Overall Average Accuracy: 62.8%
Overall Average DPS: 155.29

Ward of Xegony Defensive (With Stun)
Avg 'Hit' Damage: 256
Avg 'Hit' Accuracy: 63.3%
Avg 'Hit' DPS: 128.41
Overall Average Damage: 239
Overall Average Accuracy: 63.3%
Overall Average DPS: 135.57

I'm curious because the average hit damage is lower on the mage pets, but the overall average DPs isn't that much lower than versus warders??

[Tastian]

"Combination of Slowed and Unslowed Beastlord Parse Average 'hit' Damage: 329 "

The first one is a combination of SLOWED and UNslowed beastlord parse.  Also you'll notice the average hit in that data set is 329 for some reason, but the average hit in the other beastlord data set is 420.  8P

[Lorathir]

Have any *beastlords here on these forums* done any comparative parses?

Oh, you mean these guys ?

I've had it with some of the dweebs on Beatlord.orgs rants, tubes.

http://forum.magecompendium.com/viewtopic.php?t=16085&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25

I'm taking bets on the next insult to be used when Silverblade loses this latest segment of discussion.

"nerds" is odds on favorite
"fanny batters" at 65/3
"jiggle tits" at 40/1
"fat arsed mole-nuts" 50/7
"chunky sweatered poop guzzlers" at 100-1
"beatlords (yes, no "s") have upside down noses so when it rains they drown" 250-1

[Silverblade-T-E]

Tastian,
Hm need to get Xal to post just the slowed and unslowed for clarity? Yah another indepedeant set of parses would help :)


Lorathir,

I know BSTs read the magetower so I was just wondering when someone would get round to throwing that in.
Be honest and post the whole quote ;)

On another point, while most BSTs players are cool, I've had it with some of the dweebs on Beatlord.orgs rants, tubes

Reffering to folk who seem to think that I was asking for mages to be able to *cast* slow lure snare when I repeatedly said this was not the case, my suggestions are for OOW and perhaps PoP pet weapon procs, does this have to be carved in stone? Also pet focuses are *rare* so someone moaning about how a mage with Minion of Eternity focus can solo is pretty damned silly.
--Post good reasons WHY individuals object, not "Waah waah he wants to cast lures and slows and all mages have super duper pets with uber focuses!"....yes, folk who act like that are tubes, same as mages who want to cast snare and slow etc, k ;)
Pet proc weapons != player cast

Valid points:
--mage pets have mitgation > than warders.
--Beastlords AND their pets tank and share damage in solo/group. Similar to using Divine Arbitration or other methods of spreading damage out that's pretty effective (I used to tank for pet at times so KNOW it's useful)
--Warders proc  > than mage elementals.
--Warders have + and - aggro procs
--Mage pets have 4 different type so have situational advantages over warders (though fire pet is totally crap at high lvl except in some PVP)
--Beastlords can get proximity, slow and DoT aggro as well as a rampage, plus poison spells are more aggro than others.
--Mages dont' have any aggro reduction methods.
--Slow is WAY to desired as a component when looking for a person for your group (basic fact of EQ post-PoP)
--Beastlords have both melee and caster buffs, plus slow and DPs, thus making them very desired in groups, but they are at their best in "easier" settings because they do not have the true healing, debuff (resist) and root abilities of a shaman, or FD/high DPs of a monk.
--Mages can have sustained high DPs in group settings, but this is often overlooked.
--Mages can debuff resists and cast damage shields.
--Mage summoned items are varied in desirability and use (pet toys are currnelty the most wanted items I get asked for, not mod rods)
--Neither class has lures or real low resist DoTs (for BSTs)
--Mages can kill mobs faster than beastlords.
--Mages have gate, beastlords have SOW as their defences, sans pet.

Reasonable summary of major points?

[Tastian]

You asked...

"I'm curious because the average hit damage is lower on the mage pets, but the overall average DPs isn't that much lower than versus warders??"

The reason for this is because even the "good" beastlord parse that has the pet only taking an average hit of 329 (instead of 420) still includes slowed data.  That is why the dps is still so close despite the huge differance in mitigation.

[Urim]

--Warders have + and - aggro procs

As far as im concerned we have no - agro procs for our pets, it might say reduce agro but it really doesnt. Spirit of Snow is a 132DD coupled with trying to land a 2 sec stun, this is a HELL of a lot more agro then the 50 agro the spell reduces. Example being ...

I was duoing with a wizzy friend in PoFire at tables and starting out by putting Rellic on my pet and telling pet not to taunt. I'd send pet on mob and cast nukes/dots while wizzy snared and ran around nuking to keep agro. Pet was getting toasted by getting too much agro so i changed to spirit of snow (one of the supposed -agro procs). Same thing kept happening, pet kept getting toasted by the mobs by stealing agro. It wasn't until i left pet without a proc at all did he actually survive mobs, so in order for pet to not get agro we have to give up some pet dps in form of procs.

In my opinion, if mages want slow for their pets then they can get that added utility the same way we got snare which they love to bring up. Through the use of AAs. Give mages an AA that imbues their pet with a slow proc but made it so that the pet wouldnt have its original proc. Of course the slow would have to be fairly small, i would say 25% at best.

[Grbage]

Lets not forget on our so nice -aggro spells two things.

One-Even after they increased the drop rate for snow/fire the spells are still very rare and does not drop from level appropiate mobs. Couldnt even get a copy of snow until I was 60 and only bought it then because it was cheap and I wanted a full spell book. Heck, I just saw my first copy of Snow drop, came off of HP in SSRA.

Two-Most of us use our highest level proc we have. IE 65 bst is going to be using Rellic. Snow is 54 and Fire 56 if I remember right. Been forever ago so I might have the levels wrong.

Would like to point out one more thing concerning getting away after the pet dies. Mages get gate and we get SOW. SOW potions are much cheaper and easier to keep up then trying to slug down a gate potion when in trouble.

[Kirinicus]

Or trying to proc yer OT gate hammer when a goblin in Droga gates and comes back with 6 friends, eh Grbage?  :P

[Bengali]

Bengali,
Have any *beastlords here on these forums* done any comparative parses? :) Why just rely on Xalamat's analysis, which however good it maybe, could still be wrong?
i.e. you always need plenty of samples before reaching conclusions on statistical analysis.

I agree, and that's one of the many complaints about Xalmat relying on a couple parses.  One of those parses wasn't really supposed to be conclusive, just a quick parse to see if there might be any immediately noticeable effect after the patch.  I know this because I was the one who did it.

Which brings me to point number 2, it's not just Xalmat's data that's being used.

Another point was that Xalmat's parse that showed average hits of 329 was done using a warder that had a full set of summoned plate and a bag of jewelry, which is a whole bunch of AC that most beastlord pets aren't going to have.   That explains some of the difference, the increased statistical value of the parses (he did them for much longer) probably accounts for the rest.

The most important thing to note, however, is that Xalmat did his parse using a cleric to heal the pet, and I did my parse *using my own heals*.  I ended the fight at 10% mana and nearly lost a warder to enrage (enrage also skewed the mob's dps numbers becuase it wasn't hitting,  and that was with the mob slowed for almost the entire fight.   That's what actually happened.

Xalmat then took that data, and extrapolated that it would be easy for beastlords to keep their pets up against that mob using their own heals, despite the fact that isn't what happened when I did the test.   He even went so far as to suggest that beastlord heals would be sufficient against unslowed mobs.

Again, this is because people have a tendency to look at healing per second and efficiency, which is a fine starting point but it doesn't translate into real world effectiveness per se.  Why is that?

The answer is pretty simple.  Healing per second is static (not assuming crits/focus effects).   DPS is an average, which means it can fluctuate substantially.   In other words, a mob can have a dps of 200 over time, but it could be 100 dps at one point or 300 dps at another.  Mob damage can be streaky.

But a heal that does 200 hps in one second and another that does 2000 hps in 10 seconds and another that does 1000 hps in 5 seconds all have 200 healing per second (not counting recast for ease of math).   Those heals all have vastly differing effectiveness versus mobs.