Pet push

Coprolith · July 10, 2004, 05:58:00 AM

Not until my mage gets pet discipline as well, which is gonna take awhile. I am however inclined to trust Lucy's spell data on this. Back when i was still PLing the mage on my 3rd box, i also had to do some spellcasting skillup sessions and as part of that i nuked myself with a couple of low level nukes. When you do that with burst of flame, you wont move an inch. But if you use Shock of Blades, you'll find yourself inching slowly forward. According to Lucy, SoB has a small push component, whereas BoF has none.
If Lucy says that no proc except Sp.o.Wind has a pushback component then i see no reason to doubt that, Lucy has always been very reliable in these matters.

/hugs

Birdienumnum · October 06, 2004, 03:31:27 AM

I knew I had seen this post before. Took a while to find it again.

I have a question. Is there any difference between pierce and blunt and slash?
I did read somewhere that pierce does not have a push effect.

Coprolith · October 06, 2004, 05:40:27 AM

I seriously doubt that. I see no reason why piercing would be any different

/hugs

Farrley · October 06, 2004, 09:52:48 PM

Very nice info, Coprolith!

Just my 2cp as a tank (my main is a SK who tanks for a fair number of raids):

IMO, most problems with "pet" push that I encounter seem to be due to positioning. Not pet positioning, either.
I try to turn the mob so its back is facing as many pets as possible, as I know it is much harder to reposition pets than to reposition players. However, as soon as I do that, the vast majority of the players jump directly in front of the pets, and add their push to that of the pets.
1 tank's push is never going to be enough to counter the push of all raid pets PLUS the majority of the raid melee. If not enough of the melee positions themselves on the mob's flanks, I have to reposition repeatedly as the mob gets pushed through me.

Pet push seems to be rarely, if ever, an issue. Players who don't know how/bother to properly position themselves DO cause problems.

The only time pet push becomes an issue is when a mob has gotten so far out of position that we have to call for everyone to back off. Usually some (but rarely all) pets (and one or two melee) are last to back off.

Jzath · October 26, 2004, 05:27:40 PM

I read through these posts a second time and I agree with how the warder does not push more than melee.

For the first time last night I noticed the perception that the warder pushed more than the group. Please note my use of the word perception. This was the first time I had the reaction of, "hey, pet is really pushing the mob."

It was the second hunt I used my new 49 warder in. When I had him positioned opposite of the melee it was fine, but when he was at an angle and I saw him quadding the mob twice in a row, 8 hits, the mob definitely moved. I then paid more attention to positioning and it was not an issue. *chuckles* Never had to pay that much attention with all the levels I have done as a necro but I think that is because I did solo alot.

Anyway, had to track down this thread in case I need it to help educate others I run into.

Hrann · October 28, 2004, 01:57:13 PM

Just remember that the level 51 pet proc, Spirit of Wind, does have added push, so that's the one caveat (and has undoubtedly added to this myth).

Zurash Kittenclaws · October 31, 2004, 03:47:04 AM

Farrley, good to see you trying to look after the pet classes when you are on your main, but my advice would be to try and keep the pets hitting from the front where you are if able (cornering aside obviously), and keep the mobs back to the other players.

That may help a little with the push that does happen when all pets and melee are hitting from the same side, earning the pet classes the anger of the other clueless classes that cry, "OMG pets are pushing too much kill them all!!!."

Pets wont get riposted like players, and if they die to enrage it's too bad; pet classes are just as responsible for watching for rage as melee are. :)

Farrley · November 02, 2004, 04:48:04 PM

Ah, I did not realize pets did not get riposted like players....
Does Dodge/Parry/Block still effect pets, though?

Oneiromancer · November 02, 2004, 05:10:32 PM

Well, as I just found out recently, pets just don't get hit by ripostes...they still lose the attack though. Enrage is something different of course.

And yes, pets are still affected by Dodge/Parry/Block...that's why they do more dps from behind.

Game on,

Helspawn · November 23, 2004, 08:35:13 PM

Been awhile since anyone posted here but I'll thrown in what I know from 3 points of view:

1. As a Beastlord I tend to position my warder away from the grp or in the path that our puller is using so when I send my pet in he's running behind the mob. Most tanks I grp with see this and act acordingly. If something during the battle changes I do pull my pet of then send back in since his gaurd point is beyond the fight he can reposition himself. When all else fails I have pulled him back and changed guard point to effect his incoming path.

2. As one of my guilds MT. I watch push very carefully and yes I can out push a pet anyday of the week and have to watch this by balancing my own need to get in close with the relative position of the raid force. In fact at times I've had pets come to my side and help me with push relative to the rest of the raid force and have found this a viable solution depending on the mob. And yes I know rampage will kill the pets but recasting a pet and quick buffs is much easier to manage than wiping a raid because push was not being paid attention to.

3. As a Raid leader. I have never once said kill the pets. I have however told pet masters that if they do not have the hold AA and we are dealing with AOE casting mobs to not cast them till I call for or the MT calls for engage. Yeah sure it pisses people off but after all is said and done it works quite well. Now my guild isn't doing high end mobs yet so I may change the way we work when the time comes.

So in the end it all comes to one point PC's control push. Weither it be pet owner, the raid force, the MT, or the raid leader when he sets up positioning.

Nekokirei · November 23, 2004, 09:02:45 PM

Quote from: HrannJust remember that the level 51 pet proc, Spirit of Wind, does have added push, so that's the one caveat (and has undoubtedly added to this myth).

Doht!

That explains it...

Growls · December 27, 2004, 11:22:23 PM

As a 35 Vah Shir, I always try to get my pet behind the mob the warrior is beating on. In LdON that can be somewhat of a challenge lol.

nedoirah · October 29, 2006, 03:13:41 PM

I recently attended a raid with my guild. The raid leader complained about pet push. I sent a few tells to him and he put me in charge of the pet classes for that raid. I got all the pets to make a crescent shaped formation to where the mob is dropped at the tanks feet they would surround the mob and nearly completely cancel out all push. The raid leader was quite impressed. It still has soem bugs to work out but for the most part it worked quite well.

Timberghost · October 30, 2006, 04:36:35 PM

In fairness, theres an awful lot of push caused by other pet classes that we get the blame for.

Think how often you see Necro Army, DoDH Swarm Pets, chanter pets and so on. For people who don't work with pets all the time, and don't have the same experience and AAs that we do for controllling them, there can be a huge lot of push, and then they look around, see one of our warders and assume it's our pets doing it.

I left Magician pets out of this list, because even though they never line the pet up right, cause they're nuking from the back, they get the same pet AAs we do, and sure as heck use their pets every day.

Kanan · October 30, 2006, 04:39:35 PM

honestly, on raids, I'm coming to really detest the damnable mass swarm pets.

There is a way for the caster to actually aim them in an arc around the mob (was wondering what that mage was doing dancing around until I saw em spawning in the nice arc), but any shift in its initial position and they cause tremendous amounts of push.