Just a small question

[Skog]

So Rhaynne, considering that you have been a Beastlord for a while and have a good grasp on the situation, if Mage pets were to recieve an upgrade that was needed (for the sake of this question let's pretend to agree that there is) that clearly put them in the #1 pet slot, would you feel entitles to recieve the same upgrades as a Beastlord and "heavy pet user?"

(A slight edit- I do feel that comparing pets is valid, but wanting pets equal to Mage pets is not)

[Fibbs]

Apples and Oranges.

I like banana's

weeeee.  :D

[Rhaynne]

would you feel entitles to recieve the same upgrades as a Beastlord and "heavy pet user?

No.

I think the biggest problems that exist in class balance all stem from that same mindset: "Johnny got a new slinky, I need one too."  I think class changes need to be made based solely on that classes strengths and weaknesses in a given environemt.

[Skog]

I think the biggest problems that exist in class balance all stem from that same mindset: "Johnny got a new slinky, I need one too."  I think class changes need to be made based solely on that classes strengths and weaknesses in a given environemt.

I agree. Most of what prompted me to post past this was people like a_moss_Snake_01 and the kind that populate the EQlive BL board that seem to think that any pet upgrade Mages recieve automatically entitle us to one.

[a_moss_snake_001]

*ignores the veiled insults*

In no way are we mage hybrids. We are purely a shaman/monk hybrid with the usual unique class abilities that all hybrids get added in to fufill our class theme.

- We do not summon items (except food and water which we get from our shaman parent class)
- We do not command the elements (except to use ice nukes which is an ability we get from our shaman parent class)
- We do not have four entirely different elemental pets each with their own inbuilt themed abilities. Our pet is not our servant he/she is our constant soulbound companion.
- We are not int casters, we use wisdom
- We are not cloth wearers and we do not share the same equipment base.
- We are designed such that our melee + our pet represent the majority of our ability to inflict damage. Our spell and DoT damage is not significant in the overall scheme of things.
- We have ENTIRELY different roles in groups and raids and our solo strategies are vastly different

If you require a parallel then you could say we inherit our pet abilities from our shaman parent class and then specialise in that area.

if Mage pets were to recieve an upgrade that was needed (for the sake of this question let's pretend to agree that there is) that clearly put them in the #1 pet slot, would you feel entitles to recieve the same upgrades as a Beastlord and "heavy pet user?"

I hear you and now its time to ask yourself your own question in reverse:

"If Beastlord pets were to recieve an upgrade that was needed (for the sake of this question let's pretend to agree that there is) that clearly puts them in the #1 pet slot, would you feel entitled to recieve the same upgrades as a Mage and "heavy pet user"?

Please justify your argument with clear rational points and avoid petty emotion and veiled insults.

[Rhaynne]

I hear you and now its time to ask yourself your own question in reverse

Why?  This is the Beastlord boards.  We play beastlords, not mages.  I'm not qualified to answer that kind of question as I am not intimately familiar with the magician class.

If I had to answer, my answer would be the same:

I think the biggest problems that exist in class balance all stem from that same mindset: "Johnny got a new slinky, I need one too." I think class changes need to be made based solely on that classes strengths and weaknesses in a given environment.

[Skog]

Veiled insults? You take this too seriously if you think I am getting myself worked up into an emotional tizzy over this discussion. You must be taking what I say the wrong way.

Anyway as to your reversal of my question-

Yes, I would be against Beastlords receiveing upgrades to put  Warders above Mage pets because (for the sake of game balance) they should not be because of the same reasoning that keeps Druid nukes under Wizard and Beastlord heals under Clerics. We are not designed nor intended to have the "best pet"- that is the Mage class. I see so many Beastlords throwing around "Beastlord envy" and saying "then you should have made a Beastlord."

Well, now this Beastlord is saying if you want to have the best pet, you should have made a Mage. If you want a strong pet, decent melee ability and a good amount of utility be a Beastlord.

[Bengali]

I think the biggest problems that exist in class balance all stem from that same mindset: "Johnny got a new slinky, I need one too." I think class changes need to be made based solely on that classes strengths and weaknesses in a given environment.

Yep, and of course the corollary: "If I get a new slinky, it is only worth having if Johnny doesn't get one too."

[a_moss_snake_001]

if you want to have the best pet, you should have made a Mage

What I am asking is "why is there a need to have one class with the 'best' pet?". Why not make the three major pet classes have equally powerful pets that are uniquely different?

The pet is of equal importance to all three pet classes (in different ways).

You cannot point to Beastlords and say they need the pet more than Mages and vice versa.

[Bengali]

Well, now this Beastlord is saying if you want to have the best pet, you should have made a Mage. If you want a strong pet, decent melee ability and a good amount of utility be a Beastlord.

What is the "best pet"?  According to your rankings, it means having a pet that does everything better than everyone else's.   According to some mages, it means that *every* one of their pets outperforms ours by any objective standard.

Some paladin heals are "better" than cleric ones.  Shaman heals over time are "better" in some ways than cleric ones.  Does that mean that clerics don't have the best heals?

That is of course if you assume that it has to be that way.  Maybe it does, but the reason should be something different than "because it was that way before you were created".

Some of the problems that mages have ("my pet dies too much on raids, my pet can't offtank, my pet is nothing more than a dot that I have to command", etc.) are problems that every pet class has.  Yet for some reason they only need to be addressed for mages because they need the "best pets."  Odd.

[a_moss_snake_001]

Some of the problems that mages have ("my pet dies too much on raids, my pet can't offtank, my pet is nothing more than a dot that I have to command", etc.) are problems that every pet class has. Yet for some reason they only need to be addressed for mages because they need the "best pets." Odd.

Exactly Bengali. You have hit my major issue on the head. Thank you.

[Skog]

There are certain issues that are pet specific (as you have mentioned) but Mages have other issues with pets. They are documented elsewhere so I won't post them here for the time being.

With your logic A_moss_snake why do we not have 3 equal healers? Why do we not have 3 equal tanks? Class balance. If everyone is the same, why even have classes? Besides, the Mage pet has always a) been a heavy DPS class -giving up all defense for offense and b) have had pets that reflect that. Our Warders hit for slightly less then them, but it just doesn't feel like it is enough because with pet weapons and out buffs I know my gator will match an elemental.

What I mean as better is, for instance if both pets are focused the same, the Earth pet (the tank) should tank better then our pet by a good margin and do slightly more or just as warder damage. The Water pet should tank slightly worse and out damage the warder by a considerable margin.  The fire pet is unique (and absolute crap from what I hear) the Air pet should be between Earth and Water. Keep in mind in my view of things the BL keeps the same pet we have now, and any "pet changes" and such that are for the main problems with pets would aid us also.

Seeing as you are so fond of turning questions around, why do you think that there should be 3 equal pet classes? Why would you be opposed to these upgrades? You seem very anti-Mage, why?

[Bengali]

With your logic A_moss_snake why do we not have 3 equal healers? Why do we not have 3 equal tanks? Class balance.

...there's just too many classes for not enough roles. Most of the time class balancing involves robbing Peter to pay Paul. There's really no way around it...

...Honestly I think that having shaman/druid/cleric all being able to heal more or less the same is good for game balance, as long as the rest of the classes abilities balance out to make them equally desirable.

- Rytan the Wyrmlord, EQ "Spell Guy"

[a_moss_snake_001]

What I mean as better is, for instance if both pets are focused the same, the Earth pet (the tank) should tank better then our pet by a good margin and do slightly more or just as warder damage. The Water pet should tank slightly worse and out damage the warder by a considerable margin. The fire pet is unique (and absolute crap from what I hear) the Air pet should be between Earth and Water. Keep in mind in my view of things the BL keeps the same pet we have now, and any "pet changes" and such that are for the main problems with pets would aid us also.

If the devs had sat down and actually balanced out the 4 mage pets so they specialise in these areas instead of hitting this issue with a very large hammer I would have been perfectly content.

The following would have been good to implement:

FIRE
CLASS=MAGE
Nukes for great spell dps with L55-60 mage fire based spells until it runs out of mana. Great mana pool and great mana regen rate. Innate lure adjustment on fire based spells. Innate 90pt damage shield. VERY HIGH fire resistance. Casts a mana free "Conflagaration" spell every 6 secs. Next to no mitigation, some avoidance, low hp. Limited to three attacks per round and does the lowest melee damage. Will not kick or bash. Can critical on spells.

Situational Usage: Best for overall burst spell dps. Cannot effectively be used as a tank but will severely punish mobs that hit it with the high damage shield. Great for mobs that do AE fire based attacks due to the HIGH fire resistance.

WATER
CLASS=ROGUE
Does the best melee dps of all the mage pets. Quads and hits the hardest of all mage pets. Backstabs, also has double backstab. Will not kick or bash. Decent HP, decent mitigation, decent avoidance. VERY HIGH cold resistance. Uses a 150dd cold based attack every 6 secs.

Situational Usage: Best overall for melee dps when pet won't be tanking. Rewards correct positioning with highest melee dps from backstab. Great for mobs that do AE cold based attacks due to the HIGH cold resistance.

AIR
CLASS=MONK
Excellent melee avoidance, moderate mitigation. Has the highest resistances across the board of all the mage pets. Has 5 attacks per round of good damage. Uses monk special attacks such as flying kick/dragon punch and will also use regular kick. Has the same HP as the water pet. Uses a 150dd magic based stun attack every 6 secs.

Situational Usage: Best 'all around' mage pet. Can tank fairly well due to great avoidance and dish it out in groups also. Great on mobs that need to be stunned and good vs casters overall due to the high overall resistances.

Earth
CLASS=WARRIOR
Superb melee mitigation, reasonable avoidance. Highest AC and HP. Generates high aggro. Uses warrior abilities such as incite, fortitude (until endurance runs out). Will /shield its owner. High HP regen rate. High Endurance regen rate. Uses a 100DD magic based 15 sec ROOT every 6 secs. Does about the same melee dmg per hit as the air pet. Will kick and bash. Innate 10% chance to critical hit.

Situational Usage: TANK. Great for soloing.

That would place the rankings of the mage pets as follows in the following areas:

HP/AC: Earth (highest), Air/Water, Fire (lowest)
Melee Mitigation: Earth (highest), Water, Air, Fire (lowest)
Melee Avoidance: Air (highest), Water, Earth, Fire (lowest)
Melee Dmg per hit: Water (highest), Earth/Air, Fire (lowest)
Spell Dmg: Fire (highest), others dont cast 'spells'.
Spec Ability Dmg: Fire (conflagaration approx 640dd), Water/Air (150dd), Earth (100dd)

This would place the Fire and Water pets as situational DPS pets, the Earth pet as pure tank and the Air pet as the average all-rounder.

I know the current situation with the mage pets is partly there but there are several areas the pets need re-balancing against each other. Basically if a mage chooses to use a DPS pet in a group that pet should do more useful and consistent dps than any of their other pets, if the mage uses the earth pet it should tank better than all their other pets. Given the above scales I would place the Beastlord (and probably the necro pet) as the high-average of all the 4 mage pets so that our pets remain roughly the same power overall.

Unfortunetly they went too far with mage pets. Not only did they up the mages innate pets overall mitigation/ac/avoidance/hp they then gave mages 2 additional AA's that effectively give *all* of their pets CA3 and CS3 and then to add insult to injury made ALL pet focuses a LOT more effective for mages. Not to mention the GoD expansion gave them a pet equiv to their air pet that casts PoCalliav on itself as well as does its regular stun.

This means their pets are a hell of a lot more scalable than ours and will survive on raids a lot more effectively and THAT is my issue. Its like Sony is saying "The only pets we want to see usable on high end raids are mage pets". How far is this going to go?

I dun care if my pet does less dps than a water/fire pet, i dun care if it tanks worse than an earth pet, i dun care if it avoids less than an air pet and can only stun up to L61 mobs. Let mages have their specialised pets. Just give me a good all-around pet that is 2nd best in all those areas and the ability to scale him up with me. And don't you DARE tell me I am less of a pet class than a Magician.

Given the pets balanced correctly as listed above I see no need to have a mage-only pet CA/CS3 ability and I definetly do not see the need for pet focus items to do anything other than give all three major pet classes the same bonuses.

And btw, I don't hate mages. What I hate is Sony's response to the 'squeaky wheel' syndrome (thee who squeals the loudest and longest gets the goodies).

I am sorry if people choose to get offended at any of this but its just the way I see things and I don't apologise for stating my thoughts and opinions for others to see.

[Skog]

Unfortunetly they went too far with mage pets.

I feel that they did not go far enough.

This means their pets are a hell of a lot more scalable than ours and will survive on raids a lot more effectively and THAT is my issue. Its like Sony is saying "The only pets we want to see usable on high end raids are mage pets". How far is this going to go?

MS4 casts Prism Strike which casts Prism Skin on the pet. Note the middle number in the spell data - Unknown #163 (100/1/0). When you look at PoC it reads Unknown #163 (100/3/0). This means that PoC absorbs 3 hits, and Prism skin absorbs 1. 1 More AoE is not a game breaker.

Also, on most high end raids the Calliav line is not what really saves the pet, Pet Affinity and MGB heals saves the pet. Sure the pet runes help, but considering the we also get all Calliav line why are you so worked up over 1 more hit that, might i mention, is a pet proc and therefore unreliable. Keep in mind that our pet buffs add Dex and Mage's do not. Now add in the fact that we have signifigantly better pet heals and I can't see why a Warder survives AoEs worse than a MS4 pet (something not all Mages have).

Let mages have their specialised pets. Just give me a good all-around pet that is 2nd best in all those areas and the ability to scale him up with me. And don't you DARE tell me I am less of a pet class than a Magician.

What I am proposing, and what has been proposed on the Mage's Tower, would do just that. We would have the 2nd best pet, just all Mage pets would be above us on the ladder. What you are proposng would mean that the Warder would do less DPS then the Water pet but more than the Air? The Air is currently the Mage's all around pet. Pets do need to scale better for everyone also. We are only "less" of a pet class in the same sense that a Ranger is less of a tanking class then a Warrior.

Given the pets balanced correctly as listed above I see no need to have a mage-only pet CA/CS3 ability and I definetly do not see the need for pet focus items to do anything other than give all three major pet classes the same bonuses.

I do. There needs to be some perks for being the top pet class, but we disagree on that.[/quote]

And btw, I don't hate mages. What I hate is Sony's response to the 'squeaky wheel' syndrome (thee who squeals the loudest and longest gets the goodies).
.

Ever think that the "squeaky wheel" has been rusty for so long and squeaking for so long (since Velious) that they might actually need some oil? I'm not trying to come here and explain Mage issues to this board- it's been done before and the Mage envy and hate was so strong it was worthless save for a few posters.