Pet aggro = my aggro?

[Coprolith]

We were about the same distance distance from the mob when the pet died. I tested this in GE near the SD zone line. Pet was engaging the mob in the middle of the hallway, me and the druid were parked against the back wall very close to the zone line.

I don't know if proximity affects your ranking on the mob's agro list, i've heard people say so in the past but i don't put much stock in what people say without seeing it tested. Regardless of this, its clear that you don't inherit your pet's agro.

/hugs

[Tastian]

Yeah I tested this a few times using various combinations of nuking/pet attacking/etc.  Bottom line was whenever my pet had aggro over another char, the other char had aggro over me, if my pet died I didn't get aggro the other char did.  Just like I said in my first in this thread though I've seen lots of things that show my pets aggro to be seperate from mine (except for the initial aggro I get for sending pet just puts me on the hate list) and never seen anything that could be attributed to pet giving me aggro.

[Noriko]

So things we are certain so far is:

Pet on hate list = you on hate list
Pet's position on hate list <> your position on hate list

Anything else?

[Tastian]

Things I've seen/tested/'know'

-  Sending pet puts you on the hate list.  Even if you don't personally attack/cast just sending pet puts you there.

-  Me and Warder have seperate ranks on the list as can be seen in many ways.

-  Well pet is alive his aggro is not adding to master's as can be seen in many situations where if it were true I'd tank 100% of the time and instead I tank almost exclusively when I want to and don't when I don't want to.

-  The pet dieing does no transfer his rank on the aggro list and add it to the master's.  Tested this a few different ways, and still can't show otherwise.

Those are the things that I've seen to be true before and have held up to re-testing thus far.  Any other situations/questions I'll test this weekend when I have more time.

[Mahes]

Two+ years of playing the class and I feel like a noob again.  :P


So logically, there's no valid reason to turn off pet taunt unless you wish to aggro-kite?

And the whole thing I posted earlier about pet taunt assisting the MA for aggro control is essentially rubbish?

Just want to confirm.  Most of this information is a given from playing the class, but just curious about the obscure aspects of pet aggro.

[Coprolith]

So logically, there's no valid reason to turn off pet taunt unless you wish to aggro-kite?

Pretty much yeah

And the whole thing I posted earlier about pet taunt assisting the MA for aggro control is essentially rubbish?

It's not complete rubbish, but i think that in a raiding guild the effect of pet taunt on or off will too small to notice. I very much doubt even our pets can out-agro raid guild MA warriors or paladins on full throttle for very long and there's prolly multiple PCs higher on the agro list then the pet most of the time. Still, there's a slight chance that if the MA happens to die, the pet will take over the #1 postion on the hate list because he just had a succesful taunt and not a cleric or some poor chanter. Unfortunately, you can't control the timing of your pet taunts so that chance is small and prolly better left to PCs.
Then again i could be entirely wrong, i haven't raided in almost 2 years and certainly not in nowadays high-end content. What passed for raid content in the old days, i now duobox  8)

PAMAAC (Pet Assisted Main Assist Agro Control  :D ) would be most noticeable in small groups where the MA doesnt have the ability to lock agro. A beastlord as MA in a group with only caster's and priests can let its pet lock the agro instead of spending tons of mana on chaining DoTs and Incapacitate. A warrior may switch from his agro weapons to his dps weapons if he only has one other melee (you) to keep agro over. Just instruct your group to watch for pet proc messages, and not to start blasting away until the pet has procced a few times. There'll still be limits tho, a wizzie landing 3 crits in short succession stands a good chance to get smeared into a pulp

As i said before, my box'ed druid rarely gets agro, and when he does its because i wasnt paying attention to pet procs and sit him down out of force of habit

/hugs

[Tastian]

Yup Mahes the only time I've ever turned off pet taunt is when aggro kiting.  Cop sumed it up pretty well.

[Pojodan]

Dunno if it helps any but here's been my experience with Kitty generating aggro.

I spent a long time in BoT with a fair ammount of that in the East wing.  Part of playing there is often times pulling the mini-mini named who was a fair distance from the usual camp spot.  This named would always attempt to gate and fairly often it would successfully do so.  EVER TIME my warder would be summoned first giving us enough time to hastily rush over to his spawn point to beat him down there.  The one time that Kitty had expired before he gated the group wiped within moments as the robed folks where naturally the first to get sucked over and bitch slaped.  I think the main tank made it to zone, sadly.

Anyhoo, it does seem to me as though we get 'Master aggro' for being connected to our warders when they attack, but this is fairly minor, it's just there so that if our warder dies we don't get off scott free if we didn't do anything else.

The reason, I think, that having a pet in the fight allows a warrior to keep aggro better is the fact that pets, beastlord and mage especially, are aggro machines, constantly out-aggroing the warrior.  HOWEVER, since Warrior taunt works such that it places him 1 point above the higher slot on the hate list (PC or NPC), he essentially gains the taunting abilities of the pet.
If this is indeed true and warriors learn of it then I can see pet classes getting a lot more accepted.

[Dakat]

Back in the day when I was grouping with raiders in PoH, the mobs tend to repeat your name when you or someone successfully taunts the mob.  It was a way the raid leader would boot you from the raid if you were not the main tank and your name appeared in the mob's text.  Even your warders name would appear if they taunted.

If I am on a raid, I keep behind the mob. Usually my pet is along my side and if mob moves pet comes with me (I reposition it as necessary).  Now if my pet's taunt is on and since it is beside me, if he gets a successful taunt and the mob turns to it, about half the raiders just took unnecessary hits. Mobs dont riposite on their backside, turning mob toward me or pet just put the mobs front where its back should be. Anyone swinging just took damage.

Keeping taunt on during a raid is a no-no. Where people got the idea it helps the main tank keep agro is false. Every time the pet sucessfully taunts, it removes taunt from the tank even if its for a split second. The only thing I can really think of that helps the tank where our pet is concerned is their proc. Since the proc usually will stun the mob for a second keeping the mob facing the tank.

[bugman]

i answered some of these questions a few of my posts ago, but will repeat a few things i guess :P

doing blob2.2 in vt the mt dies about 3 seconds after enagage, by this time all pets are already engaged, the second tank dies about 2 minutes into the fight. at this point the third tank request that everyone back out of melee range to let him get agro and possibly reposition, he alone is being hit, and of course he dies pretty soon after, at which no other pcs are in range and random pets start tanking and being owned, well i see rune wear, mash pet mend, save pets butt and jump in to tank, im right on top of the mob, havent attacked or cast any spells hardly to this point, and i alone am tanking over all the newly engaged melees (for about 2 minutes).  all of which time healers where having to spam quick heals and not a single one got agro or summoned.

what can be taken from this is that in raid environments:

the rule of a mob attacking the closest melee if a pet or pets are highest on the agro list is very true and pets can keep high enough agro to keep casters and healers from being summoned if maintanks are going down. this can help keep mobs pinned to the mt if the mt stays closest to the mob. all of this of course is assuming pets can stay high on the hate list, which imo isnt hard for bst pets to do with alot of melee damage, bash, taunt of hate w/ proc. to test this (and granted maybe solo agro is different) i engaged pet onto a mob in pod, and after a couple rellic procs i CHAIN cast incapacitate for the duration of the fight along with a couple slows too and not once did the mob attempt to summon or run to me, even sitting down between casts.

cop if you would, try this with your druid, engage pet, wait for a few rellic procs, and try like mad to get your druid killed by chaining dots nooks and snare (although i believe they officially reduced snare agro a few patches ago). my theory is that more often then not our pets will be able to keep high enough agro to keep the mob on them and not summon or turn to a thrid party druid thats overnooking as most of them do!

another example on the raid level this has happened personally to me was about halfway through some VT named (long fights, lots of time to generate agro) the tank has everyone, including pets, back way off so he can recorner cuz he got bounced out. so the entire raid is very clear of melee damage, the tank goes oor of the mob to try to get it to follow, and the mob summons my pet. my pet was on follow and held so comes running back to me, and the mt gets back on the mob and whacks it some, then tries again, and again my pet gets summoned the second he's out of melee range. this happened one more time before the mob finally didnt summon and followed the mt. while it was funny seeing people tease the mt it got me thinking that my pet is quite possibly and agro machine, and it could be used as viable strats on raid mobs.

the theory (that i got only one chance to test kinda) is that on mobs like TZ of RZtW script that proc agro reduction on the mt and agro increase as an aoe (i think), you can get your pet highest on the agro list and virtually reduce the danger that is ever present of the mob turning to meleers. the last time we did this mob, after several failed attempts and past troubles with agro managment, i got the sk hate increasing spell for my pet and had not a single problem with TZ turning to any melees for the first time in several fights and we won.

its not groundbreaking by any means i dont think, but i sure as heck know to use every tool possible on raids, which means now i never ever turn taunt off, and on mobs that traditionally the mt has trouble keeping agro, ill sneak in a sk agro increasing buff for pet. doing this ive noticed no additional agro for me, and in fact by my theory i would be able to agro more the my pet is agroing.

there's no reason to think this doesnt happen at the group level as well, the only difference then raids is the fight times are often alot shorter so pets dont have time to really build agro.

edit: oops replied on first page before i noticed there was a second, some of what im saying appears to be confriming what Pojodan said, and what ive said a few times prior on this board :P

and cop, as the one example i showed, my pet has often shown proof of being ontop of the hate list, maybe it was just lucky taunt on its part, or maybe unlucky failed taunt on mt part, but many times (especially in single groups or small group raids) my pet has proven to be highest on agro list when people were told to disengage and get out of melee range, so yah its embarassing for the mt but it happens :P granted this has happened ALOT less if at all since the mt im fighting with 99% of the time in raids and groups has blade of war auged with anger 3, but the funny thing is if he swaps to 1hder and has to move a mob and doesnt get a good taunt right before trying to move the mob my pet starts tanking and i have to be the one to move my pet and subsequently the mob.

[bugman]

Now if my pet's taunt is on and since it is beside me, if he gets a successful taunt and the mob turns to it

Keeping taunt on during a raid is a no-no. Where people got the idea it helps the main tank keep agro is false. Every time the pet sucessfully taunts, it removes taunt from the tank even if its for a split second.

sorry but as far as ive ever seen, and im a fiend for minute details and studying pet happenings, a mob will NEVER turn to a pet if a pc is in melee range of it... never. maybe things were different when you were talking about, but for over a year watching my pet ive never seen this happen.

one of my longest friends and mt for over a year in two different guilds along with me is my partner in theories on pet agro, as we've been together so long and had time to test and observe alot of stuff. he even says that pets are a boon as when they taunt the go higest on the agro list, and then when he, the mt, tuants, he jumps back to the top, so its kinda like they're leapfrogging eachother and keeping the mt high. now i dunno alot about how taunt works, but this was how it was explained to me, and this is why it is in fact a no-no (in my mt and raid leaders opinion and raid rules) to ever taunt if you arent mting, because if that taunter succeeds it will render him ontop of the hate list in which case the mob will turn to that person, which is bad.

The only thing I can really think of that helps the tank where our pet is concerned is their proc. Since the proc usually will stun the mob for a second keeping the mob facing the tank

most raid level mobs where you have a mt and a mob hitting hard enough riposte damage is an issue the stun portion of the pet proc wont actually stun the mob, i cant remember but i think the cutoff to stun a mob is 61, and most raid level mobs are higher then 61. not postive on the level it stuns up to, so if someone knows pls correct me if im wrong.

[Tastian]

Dakat -  

1)  If anyone else is in melee range the mob won't turn toward the pet.  Not if it's highest on list, not if it succesfully taunts, ever.  That's how pet aggro was coded back in I believe velious or right around luclin because of old AoW pet tactics they changed how aggro worked with pets.  For as long as bst have been in the game I believe pet aggro has worked this way, but it's been awhile so I'm not positive.

2)  "Taunt" works by giving you 1 more aggro point than the highest person on the list.  It used to be quite common to have another class power up a warriors taunt by building tons of aggro and then having the warrior pull of.  This puts the warrior way ahead on taunt.  

3)  Like was mentioned on almost anything you raid stun procs won't be landing.  There are somethings, but most of the content people are doing with rellic the mobs are too high level, immune to stun, etc.

[dewddabst]

does NOT! transfer hate to the owner.

u can ask a mage, they will all tell u that.

[bugman]

if it did, most higher end bsts, being that we dont get any form of sheding agro, would be like me and be perma dead. its hard enough staying alive as is with no evade, fd or jolt, if pet either added significantly to our agro or when killed transfered significant amounts of its hate to you there's no way i would survive in either groups or raids. there's lots of good info in this thread, someone smart with good organization skills should consolidate into a semi legible post to add to library.

[Oneiromancer]

I agree, if this could be collected in an organized manner it would be awesome.  I have already posted a link to this thread on my guild's message board in order to avoid any future misconceptions about our class (at 59 I'm the highest BST in the guild and also the highest that most of them have ever raided with).

Game on,

The Oneiromancer