Fero changes?

[cassaya]

Oh don't get me wrong, I can live with SA as it is now by all means. But given the dynamics of the game today, versus what they were when the duration change was originally requested I just don't happen to agree that the extra mana cost was needed or justified given the relative value of the spell currently.

I may be wrong but I believe that duration request actually predates the release of OoW and was originally made with regard to SD. Pre OoW (which introduced a bunch of new over cap stat buffs - along with raid mobs that average 2-3 AoEs) SD was pretty much in the required set for Raid buffs, so yes it was change that would have been really helpful then. But today SA just does not have that status as a "necessary" buff anymore, not only do I click it off myself (which is a truly sad state of affairs) but I know Chanters and Clerics that click it off regularly too.

As I see it this is just a case of a great idea that sat on the shelf a bit too long. Over 3 expansions ago it would have been most welcome, and I am absolutely certain that the Bsts that are today using SA then same way we did with SD back then in predominantly pre-OoW content probably really like the change. As for those of us that have moved on from there into the newer content this probably isn't something we would have traded the extra mana cost for. Because SA nowdays largely never lasts the full duration it was originally before the increase in most raids. SD in the pre-OoW days had a status almost akin to clarity, today however SA is closer to resembling a Necro's Twitch; ie: I want SA when I am low and need mana, but once my mana is closer to full I need the open buff spot more.

But this is getting off the thread topic which is Fero. Group Fero with a reasonable mana cost (and I think I would consider has high as 1500 reasonable) is something which I could see getting used. However with that said, I should mention that I have retired Fero from my mem'd spell sets since the increase to SA (before that I pretty much only kept it mem'd for the vanity set anyway; ie: vanity set = rangers and rogues that want to see those 3k attack numbers). And this is not really something that I personally have much concern about one way or the other at the moment.

There is about a snowball's chance of survival in a blast furnace of it ever happening I think, but the current hot topic at the moment is endurance regen. New melee disciplines suck up endurance the way spells do for mana and tanks recovering from dying are feeling the pain for how long it takes to fill the endurance pool back up. So there is a push out there for something to be added which addresses this, and it might be nice for Bsts to pick up a little added raid value from this if something does get put in. A borderline sadistic joke would be to add endurance regen equal to the mana and health regen in SA, considering all the tank types that smugly click it off. But I suppose Fero might be a posibility for this too, although it is difficult to imagine Fero as the spell equivalent of PoS for endurance.

[Kanan]

can't remember if its been brot up before (and I don't wanna dig thru the other 7 pages to find out), but could the stamina component be replaced by an end regen component?

(still a fan of single over group version ;p)

[Oiingo]

The more time I spend doing single target fero, the more I want it to stay that way.  No group version or we end up wasting half of the effect on casters.  Give us more mods on the spell we have now, that should be a nice and easy solution.

[Tastian]

End regen gets brought up a lot, but that is an issue that still needs sony to chime in on just how much they want, if any.  Less than a year ago they were still againist end regen for various reasons and that meant a pretty blanket "no" to the idea.  Now it seems there is some more talk, so it'd come down to:

1)  How much end regen do they want
2)  Where do they want
3)  How should it be aquired

It's possible end regen would be added and bst wouldn't see any of it, or perhaps we could see it added to SA and/or fero and/or perfection.  It's just a very unknown thing because we don't even have a clue the target we are aiming for.

"Group Fero with a reasonable mana cost (and I think I would consider has high as 1500 reasonable) is something which I could see getting used."

1500 just wouldn't happen as was said a couple of times.  I mean right now it takes a beastlord 1800 mana, 3 casts of the spell, more time, etc to keep level 65 fero on 3 people.  1500 mana is only 2 level 70 fero's atm.  There's just no way the spell would receive a boost(which is one of the biggest issues people have), and see the spell gain the ability to be kept on more people(simply can't maintain the spell on more than 4 atm), all for the mana of putting it on only 2 people.  If it did happen then you run into a lot of the balancing issues that will make the spell worse in many people's eyes. 

-  Spell gets balanced around the large increase in number of targets that can be fero'd
-  Is it group only?  TGB?  MGB?
-  How many groups does a beastlord try to keep fero'd/is expected to keep fero'd
-  Having multiple casters/players click off the buff with the effect wasted instead of being able to pin point where the benefit goes, when and how.

Single target fero not only grants the beastlord more control, but it allows for more power to be had in each cast.  If fero were suddenly MGBable it'd have to be balanced around a single beastlord having it up on 72(ish) people for 9(ish) minutes.  3 beastlords on a raid could basically guarantee the buff for most mob encounters.  Those extra saves and any other benefits then have to be "balanced" to a degree most wouldn't like.  Even as just target group buffable a beastlord just gained the ability to keep the buff on 3X+ as many people as before.  This becomes an issue for some beastlords because they just don't want to do that much buffing.  At the sametime if the spell is restricted to just the beastlords group then you run into a lot of situations of it being wasted.  Even if raid groups were always made around bst like some do for bards you have issues of death, range, etc that still factor into the overall picture of fero.

Those same changes would also mean the spell loses a lot of power in solo and group situations where the benefit just isn't surpassing the costs(mana, etc).  Really though it's still a big unknown because not only do we have to have some sort of concencus as a class, but we also have to see where the devs stand and what we might actually get.  It seems pretty clear that the biggest issue people have is that the level 70"upgrade" is just horrible from the 65 version, even without factoring in all the other game changes.  The spell needs a boost in power, possibly a tweak in mana depeneding, and perhaps some changes in terms of availability(group, shorter re-cast time, etc).  Been a pretty good discussion so far and lots of information so lets see what else people have to say...

[Nusa]

I'm not big on the endurance regen idea. We certainly don't need it for ourselves. Tanks might love the idea, but they also struggle with buffs like the rest of us. Short-term buffs have this tendancy to fill slots needed for HoT's or other effects.

I'd certainly be willing to lose the stamina component. It's been a long time since I buffed someone without maxxed stamina, outside of special cases like Uqua. I'll take increased duration instead...or reduced recast time.

Or here's another idea....make the 70 version into a self-only buff, with a longer duration and no recast time...that at least distinguishes it from the targeted version while still being useful.

[Kanan]

Correct Nusa.. adding End regen does us little to no good right now.  But how much good really do the rest of the effects of fero do for us? For me, its nice & all to have the tiny return on the attack & I like the resists, but again, stam component = utter waste.

The point of adding end regen is to make it a useful, desired buff. 

I'm one that doesn't mind buffing it.  I'd love to get tank tells asking for it bcs they need it for the regen, or have to actually put effort into keeping it up again & removing the ostrich factor I keep finding more & more acceptable in some circumstances.  Got a wizard buddy who's tired of that toon bcs he can fall asleep/watch tv/surf pr0n/etc and stay perfectly functional in the raid or group.  It's nice to have to be involved a bit more in the management of the game, to be involved again.

I know some want as much automated as possible.. I do some of this myself, esp for the few times nowadays when I box, but to have things set so that your gameplay consists of reaching out & tapping a key occasionally & then going back to doing something else... no thanks.

[cassaya]

Personally I think some form of Endurance regen is going to go into the game, the Dev's have been against it but endurance has essentially become mana for melees and the scaling costs more powerful disciplines are reaching that point where something has to be done so that tanks can recover endurance fast enough to do their job if they die. It's also something which several classes are pushing for at the moment, and primarily a raid centric issue since a typical XP group doesn't usually require a tank to use multiple high end disc's to get and maintain agro while helping to stay alive. So the reason I like the option is because raiding is where Bsts could use a value boost since SA & Fero do not have the desirability they once had.

But with that said I am not certain that Fero is a place to put Endurance regen, since it would tend to shift the dynamic of the spell quite a bit. Logically, PoS or SA are the niche spells that look more attractive for this addition than Fero does, and speaking for myself I would be a whole lot happier about that extra 300 in the mana cost for SA if End were added to it improving its value.

But as to Tastian's comments about the mana cost for a group version of Fero relating to the number of people which a single beastlord can keep covered by a spell.... Certainly there are tradeoffs to be made which could address that, even something as simple as extending the recast time by another minute to 3 minutes (or even doubling it to 4 minutes) would reduce the number of groups which could be covered outside of MGB, and arguably could add value to bringing another Bst into a raid where are demand is currently dwindling. And I am not trying to argue for or against this, just offering the options.

Aside from the Endurance however, allowing the STA portion to buff over cap is also a thought since without that stipulation it doesn't have much value.

[Tastian]

The thing that can make fero attractive for end regen is that it's very limited.  A single target buff, short duration, high mana cost, etc.  This allows them to put some end regen in the game, but not make it a given so that suddenly every person with end bar is getting +X per tick.  Adding the effect to SA basically guarantees everyone has.  Putting it on fero means it's still very limited and choices have to be made.  Does the MT get?  Dps?  After wipes help recover?  Lots of options.  This is why the issue of end regen is so up in the air atm though because we don't know if sony will decide that everyone needs a boost, or that it should be more selective, or what they'll actually do with it.  The idea of it being on paragon has lots of potential too as it tends to fit with the spell and would be limited, but still wide reaching at the same time.

The main issues with a group fero are:

-  Less bang than a single target version(for various reasons)
-  Might be inefficent in various situations(solo, only a couple melee, etc)
-  Mana cost

That's, of course, not to say that it couldn't happen, but throught the threads on the subject these are the main issues people have with the thought of a group version.  Even if level 70 fero were given a 4 minute recast time that means a bst with buff extention would go from being able to fero 4 people max, to being able to fero 12.  That's 3X as many people and that's with the recast doubling.  That also ignores any pet affinity enabled pets that might be in the group and although current fero doesn't benefit the pets as much as PCs usually it's still a boost and does factor into the decision.

The other big problem that comes of this is the more people a beastlord can fero the more some people will be expected to fero.  Some beastlords have repeatedly over the years expressed their dislike over the thought of becoming a buff-badwordforafemaledog.  Currently a beastlord has more options and demands for their mana than ever before(nukes, dod pet, growl, beefed up heals, etc).  Even without a desired fero it's not hard to burn your mana as fast as you get it these days hehe. 

Stat breaking sta or just a straight stacking hp mod has been mentioned a lot and that seems like a pretty reasonable request.  There have been a lot of ideas and I think next week I'll try to throw some different combinations together to give some people a little better idea of what some possible tweaks might be.

[tacyttik]

Endurance regen on fero is not desired from me. Buffing a just-rezzed warrior who is going to wait for rez effects to fade anyway is just a waste. Being expected to keep Fero up on warriors just after a wipe wouldnt be great either, because the buff is going to waste usually (not pulling mobs when clerics are OOM), and I'm short on mana as well.

I'm not exactly opposed to warriors getting the end regen along with a few more DPS, but if Fero is truly meant to add some dps, it's effect is less wasted on a monk or rogue. Besides, unless its given a high end regen/tick, buffing a rezzed warrior mid fight isnt going to help all that much (according to allak defensive costs 10/second). It would have to add 24/tick just to keep them EVEN with defensive's cost.

Putting it on Paragon would be nice, because it could be given a high per tick regen without being overpowerful (casters may not need the mana, still on 15min timer). However the best thing sony could do for end regen is make it ramp up the longer one is sitting, like they did with HP regen. 10k endurance takes about 27mins to fully regen from 0 with melee's end AAs (36/tick, 360/min). But without even looking, I'd wager that sort of thing is already on at least 1 melee's top 10. Maybe if we brought it up as well, they might consider it more.

[Kanan]

"Besides, unless its given a high end regen/tick, buffing a rezzed warrior mid fight isnt going to help all that much (according to allak defensive costs 10/second). It would have to add 24/tick just to keep them EVEN with defensive's cost."

36 from regen aas & 24 from fero? (was confused for a sec at sec vs tick cost.  So used to everything being in ticks ;p)

[Tastian]

I do think the issue of having end regen built into fero could cause a lot of situations like where you are keeping 3 or 4 people buffed for no fighting and the buff basically becomes a melee twitch for bst(our mana for their end).  This situation would probably favor perfection where you are already hitting casters for the mana and could give melees a bit of a "boost".

[Kanan]

Maybe instead of stamina, fero will just give a (/pulls out a random round number) 500 endurance pool boost (adjust it as appropriate), increasing the melee's endurance pool by an amount (and doing an endurance "heal" to fill them up by amount buffed).

That could do a useful change to replace the stamina statistic & will make it desired & useful by a lot more peeps.

May've said it elsewhere, but I'd love for SA to be useful to everyone, even tho SoE may say the hp regen is, it ain't really.  Pop in end regen (5, 10, whatever they determine to be a decently balanced figure) and throw some of that on PoS as well to give an important infusion of end as needed.

[smokepaw]

     I don't like seeing all this talk about improving sta regen and sta pool.  We don't want it any better then it is now, trust me. It would make the spell very desirable and would greatly increase our usefulness on raids, but melee would tear stuff up if they had more endurance to use.  Remember that endurance allows them to use their disciplines and if they can use them more often that means we fall farther back in dps again.

[Kanan]

wow smoke... lets work to detriment of others to better ourselves.  You know why I want my rogues & monks to have bigger stam pools? So that I can be able to use my hotkeys to ask them for Thieves' Eyes & Fists of Wu.  They aren't willing to do that atm bcs of endurance pool and regen issues.

The classes that we should be closest to in dps, we are.  We are, in some very high AA & nice gear (/humble cough ;p) situations able to pass rangers equipped with their 2.0 (tho he's frankly a bit of a slacker anyways).

I'm happy with our dps situation.  I know I show up higher than the other bsts in my raids cuz they'll actually use dots (I fuggin hate em) and all my dps shows, whereas theirs does not.  I really dislike the amount of downtime that I have to deal with because of the people having to med up mana or endurance.

But then again, smoke, I think we look at things from a totally different standpoint.  I was never that extraordinarily unhappy with my dps, even when I prolly should've been.  I have zero qualms about buffing people.  If I'd not wanted to have any buffing capability, I would've made a rogue or a monk or a warrior, not a class with buffs.  And I look at my part of a raid as more what can I do for the raid.  I've killed a raid before, coupla times.  But I'd like to think my being around has helped more than its hindered.  And if I could see something that would make peeps want bsts along, want them in their groups, want them in their raids, that would make me very happy.  It might start to suck having to be a melee's twitch bish, but it would give me something better to do than turn away from the screen to watch the tv.  It would keep me in the game, more involved. 

[Shieara]

Can't say I want to see endurance regen on fero.  If that is going in, I'd rather see it on PoS or SA/SD.  Heck, I'd like to see it on both, with SA/SD adding a couple per tick and PoS adding a raw amount of end over time, like it does with mana and hps.  Talk about making beastlords more useful on raids...

But anyways, if it does go on fero I'd rather see it add x end. to the pool and then regen that amount, rather then be a constant regen effect.  Err, so in less confusing terms I'd rather it emulate growl of the panther then feral vigor.