Fero changes?

[tacyttik]

The idea of CE being put on fero...it's something I'd rather not see. Although there are some situations where I'd love to proc lifetap a lot more to regen some health, more procs, especially ones with a secondary function (stun, lifetap, debuff) appear to pull more aggro than just doing the dps with melee. Also I dont want fero to be a warrior necessity, something the warriors feel they need 100% of the time to pull extra hate from procs.

Also, procs dont generally progress. Some higher end weapons may have harder to resist procs built in, but it would make 1.5 the same as 2.0 in terms of dps gained from having fero cast on you. Both have 2 aug slots, and the only difference in augs available is something like the tacvi/blood dmg augs.

Crit mod rate would progress as you attained better weaponry, and wouldnt take away dps if you upgraded to a weapon that only had a rune proc on it.

I do agree on the cap thought, cant have it fade after so much damage taken. That would be quite painful on the encounters that pump out the ae damage where everyone needs to DPS hard and fast.

[hakaaba]

CE is something the vast majority of beastlords can agree woudl be great on fero and i hate to see someone dissenting from this for not very good reasons.

The thing is... CE for us is considerably more effective than crit mods...  We get 100% of the intended gain for CE mods because they are not based off your double attack rate or anything.  Whereas crit rate increases are entirely based on your rate of attack for how much straight dps they add (of course the % increase isthe same i think but our base dps is lower, hence lower gains)  So youre saying youd rather have something that would be gimped for beastlords from the start?

Regardless, when is the last time you used a weapon with a rune proc, seriously?  But even if you did use a weapon with a rune proc, youd benefit from more procs in the form of more runes :p

That being said, I'd be open for ANY changes whatsoever to this currently useless spell.

[Tastian]

One of the big things that a proc rate mod would help though is that it is easier to standarize the damage from it and "balance" the spell.  Yes it means the scaling isn't as huge, but at the sametime it means a spell isn't being over balanced.

Like I've tried to explain fero needs to have a reasonable damage to mana ratio in realistic situations, but with how broad the damage ranges are atm that's a very hard figure to nail down.  I'll try to break this example down...

-  Right now depths pet is good for ~5 to 1 damage to mana.  That varies a bit, but 5 to 1 is a reasonable figure.  Fero of I atm(the spell we are talking about) costs 750 mana.  That means for it to be on par in terms of damage to mana it has to account for ~3,750 damage over it's duration. 

-  "duration" is a sticky subject because base duration on fero is about 6.5 mins, but you have numerous other factors that both extend and lower that duration.  Focus effects, AA, downtime(fero only works while hitting something), etc. 

-  Using 4 minutes of "fight time", that is to say 4 minutes where fero is actually helping melee, means that the spell would have to be adding ~937 damage per minute or about 15 damage per second.

-  Now it gets *really* sticky because how do we figure what that damage is...

a)  15dmg per second is 10% of someone who is doing 150dps  (that's a pretty decent number on a beastlord)
b)  15dmg per second is 5% to someone that is doing 300dps(easily hit by numerous melee classes at the higher end)
c)  what about burst where some people clear 1k-1.5k?  at 1.5k the buff only has to be "active" for 2.5 mins.  Most can't sustain a 2.5 min burst, but gear is improving, some mobs have resistances, etc


Once you factor all that in you see how hard it is to balance fero.  If fero is balanced so that it is mana efficent for a solo beastlord to cast on themselves(something many got used to), then the spell is several times more powerful and efficent on others.  If the spell becomes mana efficent at the 4(ish) minute mark, then if you have a highup time group and sustain it the numbers get very high.  Part of that is the nature of buffs(haste works much the same), but fero is so mana heavy and such a short duration that if you balance it around a beastlord casting it on themselves that is only doing 70(ish) melee dps, then throwing it on someone who is doing 500+ melee dps is just a crazy boost.

I agree that adding a CE type of effect would standardize some of the damage, but having the spell "balanced" around some of the scaling through damage ranges means the spell runs the risk of being completely worthless to some of those that can aquire it. 

If the spell had some attention given to proc rate mod then that proc damage is very standardized.  Some exceptions do exist(ie ED/SSB), but in those cases it actually helps the beastlord as they are the class most likely to be using the "boom" type of weapons. 

You are right that the proc mod might make more warriors want it, but in that situation aren't we just seeing more utility added to the spell?  Right now I know zerk/rog/rng have been the main targets for awhile, but if the spell is efficent for damage regardless of class *AND* some classes want it for aggro or other possible reasons based upon the situation isn't that a good thing?

Remember that most are talking about keeping the atk where it is, so there would still be some scaling gain, but not as much.  With the proc rate mod thrown in to help beef up the damage contribution and add some more utility to it. 

Really do feel this has been a great  discussion, but re-reading this thread it's easy to see just how many different situations beastlords play in and how they view their class/spells/etc. 

[tacyttik]

Ok, I can see how CE would make it so it wouldnt benefit us the least. Might even keep the mana cost down some.
I would just be worried that the devs would set the number too low, because the spell would make a 70 with purchased weapons and no AAs (for argument's sake, lets say only had enough AAs to have the 30% ext dur) gain essentially the same dps as a 70 with maxed AAs and 2 high end weapons.
That being said, it does look like CE would be the best option for the DPS portion of fero.

[hakaaba]

Low scaling is not necissarily a bad thing.  I certinaly wouldn't begrudge any more casually equipped/aad player gaining from the spell.  In fact i almost think its better if everyone gains, assuming they set the gain at an acceptable level.

In fact if you look at how the spell was, causally equipped players actually gain more from the attack than high end players who already will have high(er) attack (since higher attack means diminished returns on the same amount of atk added)

But as i already said i would be happy with pretty much any (big) changes to this spell as it is in extremely sad shape atm.

EDIT: after rereading tast's post i noticed he specifically says atk is a good scaling effect so ill trust him on this :p But that doesn't change the fact that not scaling much isn't inherently bad unless it means they set the amount of gain for everyone unacceptably low.

[Tastian]

I got in a few more hours of fero parsing today, so hopefully have some numbers to throw up soon.  Fero is definitely a pita to balance though because when you realize the spell is available to any 70th level beastlord and also the same buff the best geared rogs/zerkers get it's just crazy.  For the spell to be useable on a 70th level bst with maybe flame claws or something and not just be insane on higher end people is a very tough act to balance.  Perhaps having the benefit be a bit more standardized via CE would help the spell overall.  *shrugs*

Can't say for sure yet either way, but it does need some looking into and there's quite a few ways they could go with it.  If I can somehow find a few more hours this weekend I'll throw up some parses on fero.

[Bengali]

Well, another thing to consider is that Fero is a buff, and the damage/mana ratio of buffs completely blows away that of direct damage spells.  Expecting a 5 to 1 damage to mana ratio for FoI is expecting WAY too little of it.  You can bet that the damage to mana ratios of things like haste, lions/might, champion, wunshi, predator, etc. are astronomically high compared to a damage spell.

The only "buffs" that get tuned as though they are direct damage are the ones that have a very short duration and a very large effect, like the Panther line of buffs for shamans.  But as a general rule, a buff is supposed to be much, much, much more efficient than a direct damage spell.

[Tastian]

As I said buffs also have many other issues that make a pretty drastic difference between "potential" damage per mana and "actual" damage per mana.  Things like, downtime, death, dispells, afk, poor play, etc. all factor in and reduce the efficency down.  I hope I didn't make it sound like fero should be on par with these spells, but rather, if I can spend the mana and in 18 seconds basically guarantee myself a 5 to 1 or so ratio, then FoI had better be making a very noteable contribution, not only on paper, but in actual situations where fight times/downtime/etc factor in. 

We also have to keep in mind that fero does have other properties besides just the atk/offensive portion.  Part of the problem too is that the +sta on the spell is worthless for honestly everyone I know who has the spell(feel free to say otherwise I honestly just don't know lol) and the resists have stayed very static despite other changes in the resist/spell system.  Much like with beastlords as a whole part of the reason people are focusing so heavily on the dps part of fero is because the other "utility" parts have fallen off even more. 

Oh, and I have some fero parses I'm trying to finish now.  After my intital tests I decided to grab another data point, so once I can invent 3 to 4 more hours of "free" time, I'll finish those up and post some results that should help give us some better numbers to discuss around.  Hopefully I can have that taken care of by monday of next week.

[Chickennuggets]

If they must keep the +Sta component... make it an over sta buff... that can stack with wunshi and fort.  Was thinking of what I might like to see other that the offensive aspects of it, and the resists.  instead fo Sta, or raw hp... I would love for the lower level fero to have a haste component to it... say 65% (whatever the shammy haste is, but still short duration and high mana cost), and have the 70 fero get a haste component (little higher), and make it overhaste... not stacking with bards.  It's the whole Idea of My Lips Curling Into A feral Snarl (or whatever it is), and getting more of a stat that is maxxed.  The way Fero sounds... it should be an offensive, dps buff.  The resists are nice... but I wouldn't flinch if they removed resists to add more dps mods into it.  I think the day of tanks wanting this buff for the resists has come and gone... along with the sta.  Just my 2 copper though.

[Sariss Bloodscale]

To throw in a lower-level opinion of a (currently) non-raider, I use Fero while soloing and grouping (65 version as I'm only 65).  I don't think anyone needs the stamina component.  I certainly don't.  Honestly, if you're not stamina capped with IoS or Fo7 by the time you're eligible to have Fero cast upon you, you're just not trying.  As it currently stands, I just cannot see a point to having +sta on Fero or its upgrade.  I suppose a case could be made to keep it as-is on Savagery, but it'd be a weak case.

Now, if the +sta was an overcap addition, I wouldn't mind it as I do enjoy my hps.  I imagine that it still wouldn't get much use on raiding if it didn't stack with Wunshi though.  If given the option, I'd certainly prefer combat effects of some sort in place of any form of stamina addition.

While soloing I definitely like the increased resists and keep Fero up largely for that reason.  If you remove the resist component completely, I'd think that it should only be done for the level 70 fero.  If you've got that spell I think it's a safe assumption that you're not hurting in the resist department and are grouping with people of a similar standing.

[Tastian]

Well we have to remember that fero is a much older spell and often times older spells simply lose their luster.  Omens fero on the other hand is a spell people have been complaining about since beta(I know I was there lol).  Also it's an issue that needs to get corrected soon imo because progression shows that it should be due for an upgrade soon.  Much like how feserting malady originally suffered because "plague" was a horrible upgrade to "malaria" my fear is that if we don't get FoI straightened out now then fero of X down the road will also suffer. 

The sta component does need work though and so does the atk as can be seen by changes made throughout the game.  Tons more items of "special" mods on them, other spells have been changed, champion was changed, pred was changed, etc.  This isn't a case "we want what they have", but a pretty obvious case of "hey, ya know why you changed that for them, well we are in the same boat"  type of thing.  8P

[Chickennuggets]

Tast... I couldn't agree with you more.  It seems a lot like they listen to the other classes reguarding their spells... but continue to do the cut and paste jobs on ours.

[Kanan]

I think the only thing we agree on is that we want fero to be unique, not a copy of some other classes ability. ;p

[Chickennuggets]

That I can agree with... and for a long time Fero was very unique.  But in it's current state it is just a copy and paste of old fero... with increased stats that have outgrown their usefulness.  Fero could easily be adjusted in all of it's forms to evolve more into todays game.  Savagery... keep it the same (maybe take out the reagent, or did they already?)  Fero 1... take out Sta component and add maybe a CE or something similar.  Fero 2 (70 version) change the resists to DoT/Spell shielding, and attack to strikethrough or proc mod or crit mod.  Then we are set up for future versions to further evolve with whatever the game turns into then.  There have always been 3 parts of this line of buffs... resists (magic defence), sta (= HP, melee defence), and attack (melee offence).  When it's looked at this way it's easy to see which can be changed to make it better, and modern without loosing the feeling or orignial intention of the spell line.  Naturally Sta reg buffs are worthless now for most, lore for the loss of sta compnoent can be something stupid like through ages of combat the beastlord became more attuned to battle, and learns how to make himself and others more of a ferocious beast, sought on carnage.  Thats how I think of the spell, and how it should be.  Shamans don't have a spell like that, or anybody else.  Aside from SA, and Fero... we dont have ANY other buffs that other classes don't have.  Fero could be a nice little niche for us to take back.

[Tastian]

Parses are up  here...

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php?topic=6078.0

Should help put some numbers to what we are talking about and make it easier to weigh what we are asking for.  Once people have an idea what they are looking for I'll translate it into some atk/ce/etc numbers so we could see about what the spell would have to look like.

Are there some people that are ok with how much ferocity adds atm, but would like to see the mana cost go down to increase efficency?  Or do most people want to keep the mana cost about where it is and see an increase in benefit to increase the efficency?