Primal switching a loss of dps over elemental+ weapons?

[Kebrarn]

I was talking to a guildie a few days and he said after some parsing that the benefits of the primal switching caused him to lose more dps than gained from the proc.  That got me thinking that really might be the case, since most (not handwraps) have a rather crappy ratio.  Not to mention the fact that you lose the augment proc slot since primals dont have any.

So does anybody know if there any truth to this?  I'm weilding an ED mainhand and SPF offhand, so I'm not sure this would apply to me, but was wondering if you guys knew about it.

[Coprolith]

That's going to depend on a lot of factors. Its not just the quality of the weapons, but also your average proc rate and the duration of the fights itself (or rather, you're uptime for the duration of the avatar proc).

Interesting problem in itself thought. It should be possible to make a mathematical model of it though, or I could give you a numerical example to show how to calculate it, but then you'd still have to repeat the calculation with input data relevant to your own situation.

I'm gonna give it some thought if your interested.

/hugs

edit: typo

[Kebrarn]

That's going to depend on a lot of factors. Its not just the quality of the weapons, but also your average proc rate and the duration of the fights itself (or rather, you're uptime for the duration of the avatar proc).

Interesting problem in itself thought. It should be possible to make a mathematical model of it though, or I could give you a numerical example to show how to calculate it, but then you'd still have to repeat the calculation with input data relevant to your own situation.

I'm gonna give it some thought if your interested.

/hugs

edit: typo

Well I did a rough sketch of the math involved.  In my case I have WA4 and 305 dex buffed normally.  So if I understand how procs work, thats 3 procs am minute mainhand and like 1.5 offhand.  For the most part I put my primal in my offhand so its not as big of a dps hit, but also takes longer to proc of course.  Now on average thats like 40ish seconds a proc or something similar to that.  According to weapon DPS spreadsheet I should be cranking out about 43dps with SPF offhand without reguard to the pet AA's I have.  With my primal weapon in my offhand I get 32 dps according to the chart.

So thats a 11 dps loss over 40 seconds, so 440 dmg loss per average on for each primal proc.  Now, I have SCR3 which makes my Avatar proc last for about 8 minutes I think it was when I timed it.  However I have no idea how much extra dps I gain from the 100 atk, so at this point I get a bit lost.  I also could really be off in my understanding of procrates or my math, so having someone confirm this would help me alot

[Derrict]

I did some parses awhile back on the rogue so the data may not be totally applicable to a beastlord since the added attack also benefits rogue backstab.  With 16-20 primary and 15-19 offhand during Luclin, primal was still beneficial.  Until I was able to offhand a 16-19 +1 did I begin to lose overall dps swapping primal into offhand.  Since the weapons of current expansions are better dmg/dly, swapping in primal will usually drop your overall dps.  Higher attack had a huge impact during Luclin era because of the mitigation those mobs have.  Since that expansion, added attack has had less of an impact on your dps; every 10 attack in Luclin was worth 1% dps.  Post PoP, to get that same 1% dps increase required 18 attack.

[Coprolith]

okies, here we go:

Let DPS1 be the average dps of your main weapons combo
Let DPS1' be the average dps of your main weapons combo with Avatar on.
Let DPS2 be the average dps of your weapons combo with the Primal weapon.
(you can use parsed data or my dps calculcator to get these raw numbers).
Further more let DUR be the duration of the Avatar proc (in seconds) and UTP the average percentage of uptime (that is the fraction of the time you're actually fighting when Avatar is up). This will depend on what you are fighting. When fighting a raid target that takes at least DUR seconds or more to kill then your UTP will be close to 1, when you're in an xp group it can be anything from ~0.3 (very slow group) to 0.9 (fast pulling group without med breaks).
Finally, let AVGTTP be the average time (in seconds) it takes before Avatar procs. This is equal to 60/#procs_per_minute.

Your average dps, DPS', when switching out primal is then:

DPS' = (DPS2 * AVTTP + DPS1' * DUR * UTP) / (AVTTP + DUR * UTP)

You should stop switching out Primal when DPS' < DPS1.


I think that's it, unless i overlooked something

/hugs

[Dysz]

just a tidbit, we cannot cast avatar so it is not effected by SCR3, unless they changed it.  so for the.. 6.5 mins (?) that avatar is up,  100 atk has to add up to more than 440 damage.  

i didn't know if you had a proc aug in your SPF or not, but theoretically that shouldn't be effected by atk anyway.  to get 43 dps from SPF offhand (without sinister strikes, unsure if you have that), you need ~1831 atk.  so add 100 to that (that's assuming you haven't gotten to 155 or higher on worn attack, since the avatar proc counts towards the cap) and you have 1931.  

so add 100 to the atk of both your mainhand and offhand to get the desired result.  (note: total dps with 1831 / partnering 1hb atk -- 112.66)  the result: 114.24.  114.24 - 112.66 = 1.58 dps difference.  1.58 x 390 seconds (6.5 mins) = 616.2, so in a perfect scenario (HA!  like that happens) you get about 170 damage extra from switching out.  I find it humorous that I am too lazy to switch out my primal but I just did all that (probably unnecessary) math.

[Tastian]

This was parsed a lot even back during luclin.  I remember back then some pallys actually lost dps by doing it, but they couldn't off-hand the weapon either and had to swap out their 2h.  

The proc rate matters, what you wield for weapons matters.  Also your WORN atk matters.  Some people forget it at times, but the proc off primal/prismatic counts toward your worn atk cap.  If you are getting the full 100 bonus from it that's great, but I know some that were still swapping primals when they gaining about 40atk from it and in that case it just wasn't making up for the loss of damage well waiting on a proc.  

Cop's forumla looks about like what I used to us.  It's a very case by case basis though.  Uptime, proc rate, weapons and current worn attack all can heavily influence it.  

In your situations the weapons really matter because a LOT of your damage isn't coming from melee (effected by more attack), but rather by procs.  Your ED is throwing out around 35dps in proc damage, SPF off-hand should be doing another 5 or so dps that isn't covered by +atk from primal proc.  Also like was mentioned above any aug'd proc's on the weapon you swap isn't firing, that's another 2(ish) dps depending.

[Kebrarn]

This was parsed a lot even back during luclin.  I remember back then some pallys actually lost dps by doing it, but they couldn't off-hand the weapon either and had to swap out their 2h.  

The proc rate matters, what you wield for weapons matters.  Also your WORN atk matters.  Some people forget it at times, but the proc off primal/prismatic counts toward your worn atk cap.  If you are getting the full 100 bonus from it that's great, but I know some that were still swapping primals when they gaining about 40atk from it and in that case it just wasn't making up for the loss of damage well waiting on a proc.  

Cop's forumla looks about like what I used to us.  It's a very case by case basis though.  Uptime, proc rate, weapons and current worn attack all can heavily influence it.  

In your situations the weapons really matter because a LOT of your damage isn't coming from melee (effected by more attack), but rather by procs.  Your ED is throwing out around 35dps in proc damage, SPF off-hand should be doing another 5 or so dps that isn't covered by +atk from primal proc.  Also like was mentioned above any aug'd proc's on the weapon you swap isn't firing, that's another 2(ish) dps depending.

Ya know, I didn't even factor in that a good portion of my dps was coming from procs and the avatar proc would do nothing for that.  With that factored in, then I'm almost sure it isn't worth switching out for avatar.

[Namog]

I do a primal swap and have my hotkeys configured to where i can fastly swap out hth to 2hb. With SCR and other items that lengthen benefecial buffs..it is worth looking into. I just enjoy the xtra 100+ ATK avatar gives in conjunction with Fero. I usually hover around 1800 ATK using 2hb. And the higher the ATK the better imo.

[Latang]

Primal becomes really cool in Uqua, it's definately worth swapping out there =P.

[Ttony]

Primal becomes really cool in Uqua, it's definately worth swapping out there =P.

Yes the primal is good in Uqua but not for the attack for me. The stats put me very close to max again even with the AE on me. Only thing missing is the wisdom.

[Latang]

Hmm. Only stat that maxes with avatar, daiku, fero and boar is dex for me.  Atk doesn't help much, but it DOES buff my str up so helps it a bit =P I miss uqua... we haven't done it much lately :(

[Ttony]

Hmm. Only stat that maxes with avatar, daiku, fero and boar is dex for me.  Atk doesn't help much, but it DOES buff my str up so helps it a bit =P I miss uqua... we haven't done it much lately :(

I won't miss Uqua when we get through with it. Finally beat it last night. Had enough people on and focused enough to complete it. Hopefully we will only have to do it a couple of more times to get everyone flagged.

Qvic here we come.

[Ghoat]

Unless they have changed it since I played last, you prolly don't need the avatar proc too much,  with a 250 max ATK/50 Veng cap.  Unless you are under 150 worn atk/Veng 30 then the proc is wasted since it can't break the cap - and proc avatar counts as 100atk/20 Veng itself.

It was handy in SoL since mobs had just stupid AC, but that was blessedly not carried to later expansions.

[Tastian]

One thing you do see as people progress through GoD though is lowered worn ATK.  I know people that went from well over the cap to now using tribute to try and reach the cap again.