Final Fight, Just Little Suggestion

[Khelindros]

i see everyones point of view...but simply 1.5 should be 3ish groups at max, 2.0 raid force. as advertised. easy as that.

[Aeshmal]

That is not what was advertised, and you should know that. Epic 1.5 was designed to be doable by six groups of decently-geared players. Whether our epic is currently in that state or not, claiming that it ought to be doable by three groups is rather silly. Our epic 1.5 is a better offhand weapon than anything available in PoTime or beyond up to Uqua. It's arguably better than Barxt claws in the offhand, due to the focus and the extra augment slot.

3 groups for a weapon of this magnitude, particularly three groups of people without Elemental gear, would be poorly tuned. 6 groups is about right. The encounter is currently not very doable with 6 groups of pre-Elemental folks, but that''s not what you're suggesting.

Let me point out something about Epic 2.0. There are a lot of raiding guilds that play Everquest. There are a lot of raiding beastlords. A bare handful of these have a chance at getting Epic 2.0 within the next 6 months, assuming we ever figure out this bitch of a combine. Epic 2.0 requires Anguish access. Anguish access requires completion of the trials in MPG which, to put it very mildly, are extremely difficult. Epic 2.0 is not for the "raiding" people; it is for the very best of the best, the most hardcore of the raiding guilds. Most people will never see their Epic 2.0; even those that are currently raiding PoTime and Elementals.

[Tigarri]

Epic 2.0 is not for the "raiding" people; it is for the very best of the best

or those dragged along with them...and their alts...etc.

Besides, I know plenty of people who are in uberguilds who are much worse players than people in my guild. Stick them in the same situations with the same gear and they wouldn't survive...but they are uberguilded...so they continue being effectively PLed higher and higher.

[Meeshna]

Ok, I really hate to do this without the quote on hand so I'll be looking thru all the old Sony stuff in hopes of finding it so I can edit this and post it but I do recall one of the devs I believe, stating that the final fights of the 1.5 should be doable by 4-6 groups of PRE-EP geared folks.

That's fine with me because then, if you have decent players, 3-4 groups of EP equivelent peeps should be able to pull this off with little problem (or just 3-4 groups of your best - EP geared or not in a lot of cases.  :P )  Only it seems by the current posts that this just isn't happening in the time alotted.  Everyone seems to be getting somewhat different results with the pulls so each force that goes in has to 'experiment' in a way to get it done right.  If this is the case I truely believe they need to increase this guys despawn from 1 hour to 2 hours.

And from what I have been reading, the pet spell on this thing isn't all that great considering it doesn't stack with our current line of pet proc and it has to be positioned BEFORE your current pet proc in the buff window - who has the time to get that in the right spot on your pet when you are in combat. WOW, was disappointed to hear that.

And Aeshmal, not to make light of your post but the line where you state "A bare handful of these have a chance at getting Epic 2.0 within the next 6 months" does kind of sound like the exact same thing a few folks have  told the rest of us not to complain about when it comes to 1.5.  :?

[Aeshmal]

And Aeshmal, not to make light of your post but the line where you state "A bare handful of these have a chance at getting Epic 2.0 within the next 6 months" does kind of sound like the exact same thing a few folks have told the rest of us not to complain about when it comes to 1.5

Those folks were stupid. Epic 1.5 isn't that hard. The DDA fight is badly tuned, and I'm betting it will be changed for the better sometime soon. But the rest of the epic is doable with less than a group. No other class can say that. No other class comes even close to that in terms of simplicity. The bard epic starts with a very difficult (relatively speaking) raid event. The rogue epic penultimate fight, Renux, is brutal. She has a 400-range curse AE that will kill anyone it hits in 30 seconds without GRC being cast on them.

My point is, our epic isn't very hard. It's not simple, but most level 65+ beastlords in a guild of reasonable size (> 20) should be able to complete their epic without terrible difficulty. And again, if you cannot, note that the epic is a Time-caliber weapon; it shouldn't be handed out to everyone.

[Vidyne]

Nor should it be harder than any pre-ele raid encounter outside of Rallos to do.

We've seen groups that did backflagging all night, then go to do this... and wipe.


It just... doesnt make since to me after I hear them saying.

It is for the casual player.

The casual player does not raid the planes every night(pre ele), yet this encounter is as hard or harder than any pre ele encounter.

For a guild that doesnt believe in kiting, this is all but impossible pre ele in its current form.

Yes we breezed through our epic, yes it didnt take much to get to where we are, but YES this fight is out of balance.  YES many others are.

WHY camp FRB, why camp walrus, why camp drogmor only to have to do the equivalent raid of many PoP raids pre ele to get this weapon.

A quest is supposed to be long and drawn out, with lots of time spent, not necessarily large fights.

If you put something like the 8th shawl in time.  The 8th shawl would still be an option, but it would be roughly equiv in my book, given how long it takes and how much camping it takes to get it.

Do I think its overpowering and bad to put something of the caliber of the 8th shawl within reach of 1 group?  No, because its a very long and involved quest, and I know not everyone will be able to do it, just because of the camping.

As such, at this moment.  Its easier to join a raiding guild and raid time for a decent weapon than to EVER get the final fight completed in its current form.

They need to make the beastlord epic a little longer, a little more involved, but TONE down this encounter.

Im sorry, but you saying this is attainable is just...
SoE saying the avg player is flagged for Ele planes and that he can bring 6 groups of ele geared is just.....

/sigh
Im done.
Sorry for it turning into a little bit of a rant

My point just is...
The way they are retuning and have tuned epics.
No one outside of at worst, an ele zerg guild, will be able to get them in a month or two.

So get them while you can, the ones that are easy.  SoE is taking those that were actually attainable by the "casual" player  out of their reach.

Long live EverRaid, Long mourn EverQuest

[Rhutubok]

The event is being re-tuned. Its already been stated as such by an SOE rep on this board. On the SOE forum another rep says the changes were not meant to go live. Lets see what the final version of this is going to be before freaking out.

I would be absolutely stunned if this event turns out to be anywhere near the difficulty it is currently in- which has been called by the game administrators, accidently FUBAR. Sucks for us now cause we all want to get it done, but really...lets let em fix it before we call for their heads or lament losing our epic forever.

Rhutubok
Oger on Brell

[Aeshmal]

The casual player does not raid the planes every night(pre ele), yet this encounter is as hard or harder than any pre ele encounter.

This is a severe overstatement. The final fight, while difficult, is nowhere near as hard as many of the major pre-Elemental encounters:

Bertoxxulous
Mithaniel Marr
Saryrn (arguable)
Tallon Zek

Yeah, it's harder than it should be. But I'm of the opinion that it was much too easy to begin with.

[garios]

sarynn is easy you off kill sarynn and have a 2 groups to get the birds that spawn they dont hit hard.

tallon is not that hard of a fight either.  Pally as MT he just stuns casts lots of stuns to hold agro and you kill tallon before he kills you just take dps.

MM is pretty easy as well mez/hold the dogs so they dont repop on you and have high dps to kill MM still only need one tank with some decenit healing.

Bert isn't really hard himself its just having the dps and pulling to get to him in time.

I saw this event is harder because of the 5 mobs that hit for only 300 less than their master.  But they flurry so in essence they are just about as deadly as the boss minus his stun and AE.  All the events you mentioned 2 tanks will do you well. This one you need a min of 6 tanks and healers for them all 2-3 for the main tank.  Honestly that is what makes this fight so hard are the 5 warders that hit like mad trucks. Ton them down and it wouldn't be as bad i would say to make it better would be to have them not flurry and only hit for say about 800.  Than they are tonned down but still not something you dont worry about.

[Vidyne]

have seen bert done with 33 ele peeps.

Have seen Tallon done with about that many.

Have seen Marr done with 50, and is possible to have less.

Seen Saryrn done with 28.

I'll give you Marr.

The rest, im sorry... but no

Personally, our pre ele force has done Bert with 45.
That same 45 would have no hope on the current fight the way it stands.

Just so you know, we are allied with a few others to flag.   So, no I wouldnt be able to pull 45 for my epic fight anyway.  Most I can pull is 24 max.


Still stand on my previous statement.


Why is Bert Easier....

You can MEZZ almost everything in Bert.
At most you should be tanking 2 mobs at a time unless just clearing trash.(2 mobs aggroed, not all tanks on 2 mobs).

While the kings hit harder than the warders, they are very easily pullable in singles.

Id say Bert would be on par with DDA, even if hes a little higher.... he doesnt come with 5 adds.

One mob that hits for 3000 is easier to kill than 5 mobs that hit for 1000.

Statistically, the fight looks easier, but its the fact that you have SIX very VERY powerful mobs to tank all at the same time.

5 ele groups wipe to this
That same 5 groups can kill Bert almost, can kill Saryrn, can kill Agnarr, can kill Grummus, can kill TT, can kill virtually any encounter pre ELE without a snag, save a few.(MB(40) and Rallos(50-60?) and possibly LMM(40-50?)

[Meeshna]

Thank you Rhutubok for your post. I hadn't seen where a Dev said it wasn't supposed to go live like it is now, good to know.

I know I have done several rants about this final fight and I think some of what I have said has been misinterpreted.  I in no way wanted this  or any other 1.5 epic to be a cake walk.  I even stated in an ealier post that I was disappointed at how easy some of the fights actually were.  I wish the wolf in ME would drop the essence more but be a MUCH HARDER mob to take down - needing a full group.  Same with the drog in Gunthak.

My surname is Thequestingkitty and I absolutely LOVE to quest and feel very cheated by a lot of the quests lately that Sony has been giving us to do.  I am especially disappointed in the fact that I have heard nothing on several feedbacks and such that I have done suggesting they extend quests like the Vah Shir progressive quests and coldain shawl/ring quests.  I would love to see those quests that took so much time to do be taken further so that the aquired items can be upgraded to meet or come close to the latest expansions gear.  As a quester I enjoy spending time doing quests either solo or with a group or two of people, even if the questing takes months because you have to up every tradeskill or find rare mobs and items.  It disappoints me that Sony brought in some very nice quests but made them so that you had to be EP or Time capable to finish them.

I would have been thrilled if they had made the sphinx's (at least one of them), the drog, the wolf all doable with no less than a group of decently geared lvl 65 + folks.  Even the casual player can get a group together and most enjoy doing those kinds of fights for each other.  But to breeze thru those and then be stuck on the very last fight with thoughts of more wasted time on an unattainable item, is just another disappointment on the list of new quests.  I can't wait to see if they do correct this final fight.  I'm so into questing that if they change the precious fights I would probably do them again just to see how they've changed.

I created my BST to quest and am so extremely proud of those items I have attained thru the longer progressive quests that I am extremely reluctant to replace those items for even more UBAH gear.  Lets hope that Sony makes the 1.5's doable for all the classes, not the just the raiders but the questers as well.

[zaab]

Just to show the difference and state that not all people are "casuals". Friday night is the guild's epic night.  We do 3-5 final fights in a 4 hour period, depending if some can be chained.  We are running out of 1.5 finals, so are doing a bunch of 2.0's.  Now THOSE are fun.....   I had hydra'd everything up to the final with either my druid or cleric, depending if snare needed.  Prefered druid, but used the cleric if I didn't know what kinda healing was needed.  Did my 1.5 last nite.  The most time was spent in getting set up and me telling the raid what was needed.  I am only full  time beast in guild.   Was a low turnout night, so only had 5 clerics and one warrior.  Knights did the off tanking of warders after pre-targetting.  Warrior off-tanked Animist with his own cleric.  I was prepared for a tough fight, and told the guild so.  45 seconds into the fight with the 4th warder done, /gu was filled with "so when does this get hard?"  Warders went down in like 10 seconds each.  No hp.  Animist then died.  Chest popped.  20 people in raid.  No one died, not even the Ranger.

[Vidyne]

And what dps did you have?

I will agree that if everyhing goes perfect in a time guild, this encounter is not hard.

Getting the 5 9k+ tanks and the one 10k+ tank, getting them all there, getting them to pay attn.  Getting them all synced on pull, is.

Theres just too many fault points.

If one Offtank misses aggroing or has an emergency afk, its a wipe, no two things about it.  The pet will eat healers left and right and itll be over before it starts.

All have to get aggro, no one can be ganged or they are dead instant.
And you have to have decent dps for the warders.

For the casual player, its hard to get 5 9k tanks, 1 10k warrior.
Its hard to get 6 clerics or good druids.  Its hard to get all this together in 2hrs or less, explain the encounter to them, and then take a stab at it.

You all actually had me worried when time peeps were wiping to this.. because I still thought it was very easy for time peeps.
Its just impossible for anyone not in eles.
Since thats the casual player.... oh well

Typically I can bring 3 druids, 3 clerics, 1 war(9k-10k), 2 Paladins(8.5k-9k), 1 Paladin(8k), 1-2 Paladins/warriors that dont have defensive aa or arent 65.
That + a monk, a chanter, a necro, a ranger, and maybe a few others.... is the max we can bring.  I would consider that casual... but that cannot get this job done in its present form.  With 30 time peeps and ele peeps wiping to this... its not looking good either.

However your 20ppl raid gives me some hope.

What was max hit on the warders/DDA?
Maybe they already nerfed the encounter.

[zaab]

I was a casual ldon/ornate player till a couple months ago when a friend talked me into joining his raiding guild.

I will go look thru the parses, but the Animist was no different than any of the other epic raid mobs we have done.   The warders went down too fast for any dps they might have had to matter.  Mine was the third epic of the nite, with 2 following.   The Bard and the Cleric epics were much harder, people died on them.  Same with the rogue.  We only raid 4 hours a nite, 6 nites a week, so the fights all went pretty quick.  More time was spent getting to the encounters and prepping.

[Vidyne]

only 4hrs/night, 6days/week?

Sheesh.

When do you exp.