Every raiding guild i have ever been in and every guild i have ever heard about has always had problems with push and since this is the bst forums i figured I'd address our side of things our pets. Tho they don't push like a melee class does i think if they made a change it could help raid push immensely.
Heres an idea. What if pets didn't push but rather they pulled the mob toward them when they attack. It would make it so a pet could move a mob at all they could only make it circle in one spot.
Anyone else got idea's for helping out the gross amount of push there is at the current state of the game?
Quote from: laissez on May 16, 2007, 10:01:19 PM
Every raiding guild i have ever been in and every guild i have ever heard about has always had problems with push and since this is the bst forums i figured I'd address our side of things our pets. Tho they don't push like a melee class does i think if they made a change it could help raid push immensely.
Heres an idea. What if pets didn't push but rather they pulled the mob toward them when they attack. It would make it so a pet could move a mob at all they could only make it circle in one spot.
Anyone else got idea's for helping out the gross amount of push there is at the current state of the game?
I'm sorry, I know you were being serious, but when you said mentioned pet pull, a crazy conversation popped in my head.
Player_1: Dude, your pet sucks!
Bst: Tell me about it
Player_1: No seriously, he SUCKS!. He sucked the mob all the way through the door!
Altho our pets do not push as much as a ranger or a monk do and i hate the fact when a mob is pushed all over people point the finger at the pets when there are freging 40 pc's pushing the mob and only 4 pets lol
Anyway i know that there might be a way to at least couter the push a pet makes <what little it dose push even> because there is something like this allready intergrated into a lvl 71 bard mez named Aelfric's last lullaby
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=10413
I'm not sure if anyone would realy want to do this but i dont see why they couldent make a pet proc with a neg push rate to it so every proc it would pull the mob toward the pet but wouldent that just screw with other things anyway?
You couldent use this on a wall pin because it would just pull the mob off the wall and cause problems you couldent use it when the mob is in a corner ether, with a free rooming mob like mad mary ann in tob one good string of pet procs with them facing the wrong way is just as bad as normal pet push. Someway to make a pet do zero push at all would be a better way to go but as far as i understand this is imposable with the way pets are coded.
From talking with/reading dev comments:
They have no plans to look at pet push, but are interested in looking at PC push. There are far far more attacks/round being dealt out nowadays (Hi monk, war, zerker), and they know it's gotten out of hand. No ideas/time yet last I saw.
I think you will find that are warders are already sucking.
I suppose you could add a suck/blow PC activated toggle above there heads to indicate which direction they are going.
However as posted above mellee dps has a far large effect.
Swarm pets though are more of a problem, BATM in a group environment is a pita for push.
I have thought for quite a while that it might be interesting if they gave pet classes an AA for /petpush off. Though i doubt it will ever happen
Quote from: Tigrah on May 17, 2007, 03:50:08 PM
I have thought for quite a while that it might be interesting if they gave pet classes an AA for /petpush off. Though i doubt it will ever happen
That would involve a recoding of a reasonable chunk of the combat system, as I doubt there's a toggle right now to turn push on or off. It'd probably take too long, and frankly, wouldn't do much compared to player push.
It would be better if old and new school players stop buying their knowledge of pet push from K-Mart .
I stand in front of my pet with a mob between us and there is no push either direction . If I use kick the mob will eventually go through my pet .
I doubt there will ever be a situation on a raid with a MT in front (rage , page , etc ) and everyone in back or the sides that will stop the push on a mob from going through the MT .
Coding for the game itself is complex . Its what we pay for and what they are paid to do to provide a smooth running game . If they need to change this complex coding in order to acheive any sense of control over the Meelee push problem then so be it . This topic needs to be addressed over and over until there is nothing left of the dead horse to kick . As with quite a few BST Class issues that are 2-4 years overdue on getting fixed . We are a patient bunch by the mere fact that fixes haven't been addressed for such a long time , that personally "taking a long time to fix" is not a good excuse to not address worsening conditions/issues .
<Brannoc> *Darkmatil* Is there anything in the works to significantly reduce or (preferably) eliminate the inordinate amount of pet and player push done to mobs?
<Vahlar> The issue of player/pet push on mobs has been an ongoing discussion on the design team. We currently see it as an element of our game play and many of you (and designers) strategize around that mechanic. That said, at times and in some environments we recognize it's problematic. To that end, we have discussed the issue and possibly modifying it, but there is no date or set plans at this time.
From Fri's dev chat. They know about it and are currently tryin to decide if it is/should be part of the game. So well it is not going anywhere imho
Quote from: recoil silverclaws on May 16, 2007, 10:31:17 PM
You couldent use this on a wall pin because it would just pull the mob off the wall and cause problems you couldent use it when the mob is in a corner ether, with a free rooming mob like mad mary ann in tob one good string of pet procs with them facing the wrong way is just as bad as normal pet push. Someway to make a pet do zero push at all would be a better way to go but as far as i understand this is imposable with the way pets are coded.
I'm not sure you gave this enough thought. If a pet pulled it couldn't move the mob at all cause it would be constantly pulling it to itself ( rather stationary if you don't repostion a pet) And also if u think 5 bst pets pulling at a mob would counter a full raid beating on its back your crazy. Tho the push in the game is horrendous and countering it by a little pull seemed like a valid idea.
I have seen this as a matter of fact on a few encounters with casters using spells with push on them it takes time for even a raid of 35 melee to push a mob back into place even from 4 casters using a spell with .5 push per a cast the mob still jumps around back and forth is why i say that. Not because i i did'ent think about it but because ive seen it with my own eyes on a raid situation. Just because you hace a proc that pulls a mob and melee that push's it dosent mean there would be a way to make it stay in one spot it would just get moved back and forth in a line and depending on how much it procs and if the pet was hasted it could still move ether way.
Well I dunno about you guys but I like the bit of pet push we have, sometimes it is needed for encounters. A pet AA with /pet push off would be interesting but at the same time it doesn't make sense to me....
I've seen a group of melee out push my pet and werewolf pet anyday of the week. The solution to pet push is simple thou, just WATCH YOUR $$%$@ PUSH.
If you pay attention and you make pet hold when he's pushing the mob the wrong way and have him follow you and you fix your push, it is the best way I have found. Yes i probably lose tons of DPS, but I'd rather lose DPS than wipe the raid, or have the raidleader scream at me or my pet for X reason ect ect.
Also I firmly believe that our toons (not pets) are the cause for tons of push...procs from weapons, class abilities and AAs and such from all classes in the game cause push. Another factor that sometimes we forget about is not just melee push, but caster push as well. I've heard it sometimes with wizzys and mages and their nukes, pushing mobs in certain directions and then melees need to counter the push ect.
It would be a good thing if the devs take a look at that code and somehow lessen the PC push that we can cause. I say "lessen" instead of plain remove, because for some encounters/situations in raids and groups you need a certain amount of push so its not an outright bad thing only when theres TOOOOOOO much of it. Also with the way devs have been I'd rather see them lessen the push code for all classes rather than a removal because last thing I want is for them to end up breaking the darn game for the rest of us who no matter how many nerfs they pull and unimportant bug fixes they fix (instead of the bigger important bugs) for some reason we still wanna play this darn game =p. /mini rant off
100% agree with you mewzee. The thing most people dont understand is monks and rangers and hell even zerkers when they use some disc's have insane push i cant count how meny times ive had to use my self and my warder to counter push from one single ranger and they still over pushed me. The problem isent people's pets its people being lazy and just sticking to the mob with out thinking. This is something me and my fellow raid leaders have started to take into hand and forcing people to learn to just fregin shoulder pin a mob rather then push the damn thing all over or into a corner.
Some of the older cleric nukes definitely have pushback, easy to tell if you're duoing or whatever, the mob will slide around a bit after each nuke. Glancing at lucy some mage nukes have 0.5 pushback, not sure on wizards. In any case it's going to be way less than melee/pet push (and clerics at least, won't be nuking in most content), but I'm not sure I agree on "The only thing that generates push in this game is melee attacks."
Quote from: Inphared on May 23, 2007, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: Mewzee on May 23, 2007, 06:29:54 AM
procs from weapons ... caster push as well. I've heard it sometimes with wizzys and mages and their nukes, pushing mobs in certain directions and then melees need to counter the push ect.
I'm afraid whomever planted these ideas in your head was nothing short of a complete ninny.
The only thing that generates push in this game is Melee attacks.
Check out Lucy, quite a few spells have at least some knockback associated with them. Stuns have the most, have you ever watched a pally knock mobs out of a wall? Granted they should not be using them on a boss mob if they are not MT but surely will when tanking trash.
CLR/PAL stuns used to be a much bigger deal than now...it used to be that ALL their stuns had large pushback (usually 5), and they couldn't do one without the other. Now, most of the higher-level PAL stuns have no push on them. However, ALL chanter stuns have 0.5 push on them (as well as having a fairly short AE range). Monks have situational pushback attacks. Bards bellow line has pushback. Bard mez has significant push or pull per pulse (specifics vary depending on song level), and they can be VERY good at positioning single mobs.
God, I remember early raids in BoT towers when Copper Hammers of Striking (proc stun, pushback 1) were popular with the melee's. Fighting on platforms in the air was a real challenge.
Only thing I can suggest is LEARN to control your pets push. It sucks to spend a lot of time on a raid placing and re-placing the pet to distribute pet push. On most of our raids we have at the most 3 beastlords - 1-2 mages - 1 necro. That would be out of a 45'ish person raid-force.
The pet-owners that takes the most time to deal with pet push are beastlords. In smaller raids or groups I spend less time worrying about pet-placement. I take one flank sic Tigger and take up on the other side. I actually push more then Tigger does, so I even that out with the BE pet.
Learn control. Having a pet that /pulls doesn't make sense to me. And the push they do provide are very useful on many raids in helping the MT cornering a mob, I don't think I would like to loose that ability to.
/pet hold - /pet back - /pet focus are pretty darn useful when used right.
KitKat
Well pet push isn't really as much of an issue as ppl make it out to be. Melee will far out push my warder and bark at the moon pet together. What my concern was about reducing the amount of push a raid has thus making it easier to control. There isn't a guild in this game who has good push control, and by that i mean i mob will not move one way or another when dps is applied to a non rooted mob.
And yes any spell that does dmg will create push (and some spells that don't do dmg for that fact as well), for casters its a small amount of push and there push goes in the direction there facing when the nuke is fired. I'm sure you've been on F RO raids in the plane of fire where u can see the casters moving the mob the way they face.
QuoteI'm afraid whomever planted these ideas in your head was nothing short of a complete ninny.
The only thing that generates push in this game is Melee attacks.
OK . Enough already of stupid posts .
1. Spells create Push ! Ahem lets see Pets are Spells , unless this got changed since their inception ??????????????? Various procs have knockback , push , etc ........ Have you ever watched a shamans Pet do basically crap dps but knock the dog**** out of a mob ????
2. Some songs create some very nice push !!! Oh wait Im sure this was changed and doesn't exist now either ?????
3. Meelee = MAD Push ! Stuns , AA's , Procs , the list could go way way way on .
Where the hell did you come from ?
These things are part of the game . They are still IN the game !!
For you to refer to anyone as a ninny for giving correct information , I am thinking to myself what the hell does that make you for posting rudely and beingt INCORRECT at the same time . If the subject matter is too hard for you to understand then send me a /tell and I'll save you the embarassment of stupidity .
Try being part of the solution !
Back on Topic . Push got any idea's?
1. A correct understanding of how push works is defintely apparent for some <refer above>
2. If there were a way for them to keep our warders on the side we send them in on would be nice . Sort of like /pet focus / call it /pet wall or something where our pets could act as a wall . Not realistic but eh .
edit* I am guessing the motivation for this topic to begin with is because guild after guild after guild complain about our pet push being the problem because of meelees and so on pushing away . Stop (Inphared) insulting posters who are trying to be constructive in finding a solution if there is one to be found . Takes alot to piss me off but enough is enough already .
Sigh you missed it again . Yet you stayed consistant . Go figure .
First , I am not trying to flame you . I am , to simply put it , sick and tired of name calling , non-helpful , act like they know-it-all posters .
Lets see , I quoted your first post . How about we address the second one
Quotebecause anyone that has any sense knows that that kind of push is bad.
Yes I find both of thsoe extremely hilarious and will write those down for future fun time joke telling at family , friend , group ,r aid functions . Because we all know how freakin funny it is to call someone ignorant stupid , without common sense , brandead , or whatever else will probably come out of your hilarious mind .
Ok thats where ya missed the point of my post directly to you .
This is how you were consistant :
Topic : Push got any idea's
Your Ideas : 0
Consistantcy at its best .
edit* inserted typos so you have something else to make fun of.
Maybe , I am just the only one who decidede to waste enough time being tired of it enough to post .
You have clarified to my satisfaction , and I appreciate it .
The point is there are more ways of push than just meelee . A fact we as a community know . For some reason our guilds as a whole do not seem to understand this and our Pets get the blame for the bulk of mob pushing .
Can a Wizard outpush a Bers ? Sure, if the bers is standing there asleep not touching the mob . Point being there is push .
We agree that melee push is huge but as a class what might be some ways besides argueing the same point with our guilds year in an year out to try and curve it ? , Posting on our guild boards don't work . Posting on SOE forums has not worked to date .
Maybe a joint effort between the Class Boards with the same information could be a way to explain how push works and everyone can see for themselves how ALL push works with spells , pets , procs , melee , weapons , stuns . It would be a huge undertaking but allot of it could probably be gotten from existing parses from each classes boards . Just another idea .
To make it a little simpler any dmg you do to a mob will infact push it.(I'm sure you could find an exception like dmg shields maybe, you can't really tell) You may think that it doesn't b/c Lucy shows push up and push down as 0 but they do infact push.( this i know from experience raiding) Take for example a raid of long ago Fennin Ro, The Tyrant of Fire most guilds would range fight him and since dd did push they had a caster leader to tell the casters which way to face to control the push, you could actually see the push created by a raid force of casters nuking the bijesus out of him.
Inphared when you post you come off as abrasive, you may not be trien to but its just what happens.
Take for example
Quote from: Inphared on May 23, 2007, 09:46:25 PM
When I said "the only thing", that was just a generalization.
The word "Only" is not useally refereed to as a generalization and by that quote you expected ppl to know that you meant it as one.
And yes this post was not started for this, it was started to get some constructive idea's about how to better raid push from our side of things. The push in this game has hugely increased over the years the Dev's know this we just need to get some idea's to present to them, if a bst team could slow down the push from melee's(i.e. pulling) it would bring some class utility back to us as well as making raiding none cornered none rooted mobs alot more fun.
The point is to learn more about your class from the mass we are as a beastlord community.