Having read a post in The Campfire regarding SoE position on PoP post Oow release, I was "inspired", for want of a better word, to find out how other people view this issue of opening the middle/higher planes. My first reaction was:
"Eeek shock horror at the thought of them opening up any more of the planar zones!!"
Perhaps some of you can quell my initial Bestial Rage (well I am a Beastlord) with more rational incite into this touchy topic.
All guilds have suffered late nights raiding for flags, wipes and failure over the time PoP has been about. I know from experience that being in an inter-continental guild with leadership heavily balanced to the US contingent, I have had many a long night ending between 3am and 5am to keep up with flagging raids.
Does it affect my work? Yes
Do I suffer for it? Yes
Will I continue to do it? Yes
Does my RL suffer for it? Yes
Value of the achievement? Priceless!!
When "casual gamers" can tell me they put themselves out in RL, get as little as 90 mins sleep before commuting for 3 hours there and 3 hours back from work or whatever, then I would consider them deserving in having higher tier access. People do have a tendency to harp on about paying the same subscription and therefore are deserving of the same access. It isn't about where the higher level guilds are now, they still invested more than just a few pounds a month for subscription. If I was paid by the hour for the time invested in getting somewhere in EQ with my guildies, based on the cost to business of my time in RL, I too would be a "casual gamer" given my sudden rise in wealth and the long holidays that it would afford me.
It was nice to get the PoP charm so thanks to SoE. But as we get older in the game and our real lives progress, can you seriously see gimmicks like that as proportionate to the time we lost in game when we could've been doing something else.
Clearly the casual gamer is getting something extra in RL we aren't, if they can't dedicate the same amount of time, despite paying the same taxes. Should WE be asking for a rebate?
And yes, this is spoken like a true addict. I do think RL is greater than EQ, but like many of you oldschool players, I play to keep in touch with the friends I have made over the past 4 or so glorious years of my EQ life.
Quote from: Gourgeous GeorgeHaving read a post in The Campfire regarding SoE position on PoP post Oow release, I was "inspired", for want of a better word, to find out how other people view this issue of opening the middle/higher planes. My first reaction was:
"Eeek shock horror at the thought of them opening up any more of the planar zones!!"
Perhaps some of you can quell my initial Bestial Rage (well I am a Beastlord) with more rational incite into this touchy topic.
Edit: Found the origional post, adding my thoughts there.
Open them up I say. It has been 2 years since the release and the casual gamers have been locked out long enough really. I am biased, I want my 2box to be able to enter and most of the big guilds do not backflag for the elementals anymore. Right now the zones are really under used except for named, gods and the occasional exp group.
Open 'em up. EQ should be fun, not a job. And no one, NO ONE who has their flags enjoys backflagging AT ALL. From everyone I have talked to who has advanced to elementals/Time, none of them enjoy doing the backflag grind... but with the decreasing popularity of the game with high end players, it's getting harder and harder to muster the troops for high end planar raids. Almost everyone I have talked to doesn't care anymore if they open up the content.
I mean, what good is your "achievement" if you can't muster enough people to even raid there anymore?
Quote from: Gourgeous George
Does it affect my work? Yes
Do I suffer for it? Yes
Will I continue to do it? Yes
Does my RL suffer for it? Yes
Value of the achievement? Priceless!!
When "casual gamers" can tell me they put themselves out in RL, get as little as 90 mins sleep before commuting for 3 hours there and 3 hours back from work or whatever, then I would consider them deserving in having higher tier access.
Wow - do you and I have a different view of the game. Nothing wrong with that - just sayin is all.
I posted in the original post as well - my view. Leave PoP as it is since lots of folks are still working through the content as is. Revamp the content that nobody touches anymore. Turn long dead 'raid event's' into 2 groupable doable content. Ofcourse some of that has been done simply due to mudflation, but still lots of mobs that live extrememly long lives these day because it still requires a mild raid force for family guild equipped folks.
While I'm a bit indecisive either way on wether they should open up or not, I look at it this way.
OoW will bring 5 new levels. After 6 months (probably less) when the majority of folks playing high level content are of level 70, the entry flags needed to get to elementals will become trivial at best. These flag mobs will be doable by 3-4 groups of level 70 players, which is a meager force to muster.
So in essence, by raising the level limit, they are opening the elemental planes to the public.
However, even with that said, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they just opened up the elementals all together to the general public. This is SoE we're talking about here.
It will be a mistake to open them up. It's just inviting people who can't handle the mobs there and I foresee many many trains due to people biting off more than they can chew. Besides I rather not see all the flagging I have done go to waste.
I dont like the idea of opening it up. On MT many open raids are done and gives the casual player a chance to become flagged. If you open it up imagine all the people that will miss out on zones and encounters that are such a large part of the experience (good or bad).
QuoteDoes it affect my work? Yes
Do I suffer for it? Yes
Will I continue to do it? Yes
Does my RL suffer for it? Yes
Value of the achievement? Priceless!!
I think they should open up the EPs just to save your soul G.G. If opening up the EPs is the only thing that'll make you give up your EQ addiction and lead a normal life again then im all for it. :roll:
/hugs
Enough is open already. Opening elementals would be severly detrimental to the game. There SHOULD be a reward for getting all those flags and raiding regularly. Sorry if that offends the casual guys, but though. You open the higher planes you will lilkly have a mass exodus of the players who HAVE spend countless hours getting there to have thier accomplishments completly devalued. If you havnt raided through to the Elementals, there is very little chance you will live through 1 pull. With GoD being largly availible to the casual gamer for most of the content, and with the stated design on OoW being most all zones open to all players, just sealed high end raid areas, there is no reason to open the zones in PoP that are closed.
Statements from SoE about more people in those zones is simply from how long they have been around, and the fact that raising the level cap will make the encounters easier(like luclin was after PoP came out).
Simply put leave it alone. They open Elementals, I cancel my account after that patch message.
Backflagging is a horrible aspect of the game. How many guilds still do backflagging on a regular basis? Open raids are pure torture. A minimum of 2 hours just to get numbers to attempt a target, and then have one person screw it up. They should open all the elemental planes to 65+.
There are some great experience zones in sol ro, tactics, earth, and fire. I mean are the elemenatal planes harder than god? If casual gamers can handle god, then they can handle the elementals.
It's time SOE stop making these guys wait to see an expansion they paid for about 2 years ago. At a minimum, they should open up sol ro and tactics.
Quote from: KanneAt a minimum, they should open up sol ro and tactics.
Go do the PoStorms quest for Tactics access. I did it before I got my MB kill and all it takes is 2 people. Sol Ro should never be opened, once you suffer through the hell that is the Bert event it would break your heart to see that zone ruined by what is currently ruining BoT.
OK... after thinking about it today, I change my mind.
Don't open them up.
BUT...
Ease up on the numbers of flags required to bring non-flagged along like I suggested a long time ago! What is it now... 85% of raid has to be flagged? Why not just make it one for one... 15 flagged members can bring along 15 unflagged. So half the raid (50%) has to be flagged. This will keep the progression requirement, but will make backflagging ALOT less painful. Guilds will still have to work for it, but won't be penalized so badly just because all of their flagged people might not be on at any given time.
I dont mean to offend anyone, but quite frankly, the only proponents of opening the planes are people who have not earned the flags themselves. DO guilds do alot of backflagging? Nope, why would they? If thier raid force is flagged for a zone, no need to keep doing the backflags. And honestly, just paying your $13 a month should in no way entitle you to every single aspect of the game. Otherwise there is very little incentive for the people who play more, for the time, effort and commitment to a guild for getting all these flags, they better remain a locked set of zones. I also dont belive the average non-raider has the skill/gear/whatever to handle the zones. Look at the before and after in BoT(bastion of Trains). Your lucky if zoning in doesnt get you killed.
Strigori: the raid alliance I was involved with was pretty much killed by backflagging. Too many high end players are leaving EQ for other games. There isn't enough high end players coming in to replace the ones who've left. We had a whole thread about this somewhere here...
Unflagged are NOT the only proponents either. Did you read what I said above, or just throw in a post? I know MANY ele/Time flagged people that are SICK of trying to keep up with the losses. When you get one new person in a guild, 2 flagged people are leaving, and they are getting tired of it.
Perhaps no one in your guild has left. Doubtful, but that may be true I suppose. At any rate, eventually your guild will start to fade like the rest have. And then what? OK, you are flagged for Time, but you might not have enough flagged people left to do something with it.
The answer to backflagging is NOT to just get rid of flags. Maybe having guilds flagged instead of people or something similar would be an appropriate solution (but could cause numerous more headaches and programming it would probably be terrible). But getting rid of them altogether is definitely not the answer.
Not to be rude, but to use your addiction as a reason why people should not be allowed access to high-end content that they not only paid for in subscription but also in buying expansion seems pretty pathetic. Noone made you commit so much time to the game that your RL suffers. You choose how much you spend online, and how much it affects your RL. I just thought of somthing else, when I started buying expansions, such as PoP, there wasn't a disclaimer on the box that I was going to need to join ubah X guild and give up my RL for game time to see all the content of the expansion. I don't propose that when OoW comes out a free ticket to all content. I do propose that if I hit lvl 70 when it comes out that I have all old content open to me. That is not a free ticket to me. The time I am gonna spend to get to 70 will be quite awhile compared to the hardcore addicts that will grind for a week to get from 65 to 70 because of my casual playing and RL commitments. Does that make my accomplishment any less impressive then an addicts? I have loyally played this game for a longtime casually. So what makes the person who has ground out to 65 and fully flagged in 3 months more deserving then me. He has given up RL for EQ? I don't think so. I know the classes I play very well due to the time having played them for so long. I think that should be taken into account with access to content.
Quote from: Gourgeous GeorgeDoes it affect my work? Yes
Do I suffer for it? Yes
Will I continue to do it? Yes
Does my RL suffer for it? Yes
Value of the achievement? Priceless!!
That is actually a very accurate summary. Flagging is a colossal PITA. In and of itself, the process is not fun except for the "achievement." Anybody who has been through it is a martyr, not a gamer.
Solo/grouping and raiding are two completely separate games. There is no rational basis to the claim that one is somehow "better" than the other. But they are
different. The people who play the raid game and then come back to play the solo/group game with their Planes gear are twinked every bit as much as someone who got a job at the post office to earn the money to buy the equipment on eBay, and they have no more, or less, business being proud of their "achievement."
A level 65 that solos what used to need a raid at level 50 has no right to be proud of that achievement either by your logic.
Quote from: MindletA level 65 that solos what used to need a raid at level 50 has no right to be proud of that achievement either by your logic.
"Logic" is kind of a big word. Why don't you walk me through your analysis there, hotshot?
As much as I would like to get my BL into the elemental planes, I dont think it is fair to just open them up to everyone. Having gone through the flag progression on my warrior, it would really annoy me to see someone just be able to zone in having done nothing. I do agree that backflagging is about as unpleasant an experience as there is in EQ, I dont see removing the flags as helping anything. Part of the progression served the purpose of strengthening and fine-tuning your raid force to handle bigger and better things. I think part of the introduction of the "new" Veeshan's Peak was designed to kind of "throw a bone" so to speak to the people who cant get to the elementals.
Quote from: DasquidI think part of the introduction of the "new" Veeshan's Peak was designed to kind of "throw a bone" so to speak to the people who cant get to the elementals.
From what I gather, VP is for people who have done exactly that.
As to whether elemental zones should be opened up, I'm in two minds really. It shouldn't be done in a way that trivialises other people's hard work - but imo the whole flagging concept was fundamentally flawed from the get go - meaning it ought to be looked at. Just because it was a trial for people previously doesn't mean we should suffer a poorly imagined system forever. Things change - sometimes you have to let go.
It's sort of a moot point on Drinal at the moment anyway - not sure how it is on other servers, but the Elemental planes are
full of people who got there through open raids on Drinal. (With more coming all the time.) Since it's demonstrably true that even casual gamers can get there, I don't see much point in opening it up.
As for this comment:
QuoteThe people who play the raid game and then come back to play the solo/group game with their Planes gear are twinked every bit as much as someone who got a job at the post office to earn the money to buy the equipment on eBay, and they have no more, or less, business being proud of their "achievement."
You're confusing a twink (a character that has nice gear unsupported by level or experience with that class) with someone who's overpowered for older content. They're not the same thing.
Well, I'm divided on the subject.
First off, i want to see the Elementals. I really couldn't care about Time, itself, but i'd at least like to see what the EP hububb is about.
Unfortunately, on bertoxx, open raids to not often go past Bertoxxulous himself, if they even make it to Caprin. Most often it's spam of Rallos attacks (which, to date, have never succeeded). My guild isn't exactly what you would call a "big hitter", I think we'd be hard-pressed to pull off a Dain kill, to tell you the frightful truth.
Opening up Tactics and Sol Ro, and maybe Elementals, would thus be a great benefit to me, even though i'm not even of a level to fare well in PoV yet. Plus you have the problem Strigori brought up... Once your guild is flagged, why ever bother again? This creates a glass ceiling problem, where to progress, you have to find a guild that's starting from scratch and wants you aboard.
On the other hand, it's clear, just from BoT, that the upper-level planes weren't built to support a large number of players like they are doing.
In my mind, there's two solutions... One, make flagging less of a hassle somehow. Say, once you're past the level needed to enter a zone, you are automaticly considered "keyed" for it, though you don't get the AA or charm bonus.
Thus once you hit 55, you're considered to have done the PoJ trials, Grummus, and Torment access, once you hit 62, you're assumed to have done the access flags for BoT and HoH, thus removing all those flags from your "need to do" list
The better option is adding open zones that are equal in power and reward to EP's in OOW, that can handle the stress.
Quote from: Cyphen WilderNoone made you commit so much time to the game that your RL suffers. You choose how much you spend online, and how much it affects your RL. .
Yes and YOU choose how much time to put into the game. If you don't put in the time and effort you shouldn't get access to the zones. Don't persecute those that have put in the effort. PoTac gives pretty good exp for the effort and is virtually empty. Opening EP zones to everyone is not the answer.
When OoW comes out, and has been said before, most of the PoP zones will become trivial to lvl 70s much like VT is trivial to lvl 65s.
The solution is to keep the zones locked and implement guild flagging.
The need to backflag would be destroyed because your guildtag carries the flag.
I still say go for level access. Earning levels is still by far the best way to learn how to play a character. And knowing how to play your character as well as taking the time to level him up to sufficient level in my opinion is a good enough commitment to be allowed to see content without having to give up my life. I've bought all the expansions, payed for all the subscriptions, and have played going on 5 years now (I think), why should I not be able to see it?
Quote from: Cyphen WilderI've bought all the expansions, payed for all the subscriptions, and have played going on 5 years now (I think), why should I not be able to see it?
Because you don't put in the time/work for it.... I don't want to turn this into an uber vs casual thing but why should they just give it to you? ALL games have things like this, in EQ it just requires more time (welcome to timesinks).
Quote from: Cyphen WilderEarning levels is still by far the best way to learn how to play a character.
That used to be the case but now its no longer true. There are level 65s that have no idea on even some of the basics of the game let alone knowing how to play their character well. Its so easy to level up its not funny.
And I ask again, what is the difference between addict boy playing for three months straight to get to 65 and fully flagged and me playing for 6 years to get to 70? Where is the timesink here? And as I have pointed out before, where did it say on PoP box that I was going to have to join ubah x guild and give up my real life to play the game to its full content? Not a single place. And of course there is this:
QuoteI don't want to turn this into an uber vs casual thing but why should they just give it to you?
Me playing as long as I have and getting to such a level as 70 would not be considered "giving it to me". Leveling a toon to 65 or 70 in your eyes may seem like some little thing, since you flew through it, but to a casual gamer, 65 or 70 is a huge accomplishment. What you can do in 6 months with a toon, is something a casual gamer hopes to do in three or five years. I am not devaluing your accomplishment, why devalue mine? You value the timesink done in a short period time, but fail to recognize the timesink over a long period of time.
Quote from: Cyphen Wilderbut to a casual gamer, 65 or 70 is a huge accomplishment. What you can do in 6 months with a toon, is something a casual gamer hopes to do in three or five years.
I know a ton of casual gamers that have gone from 1-65 in 3-4 months. Taking 2+ years to get to 65 is horrible now. You made 65 in 5 years so start looking for open raids on flag targets. You'll get in there eventually.
Why should I have my accomplishments devalued because you don't want to go through the same thing? Even causal raiding guilds can get to the elementals now. There is no reason to just give you access so that Sol Ro or elementals can become the next BoT.
Quote from: MindletQuote from: Cyphen WilderEarning levels is still by far the best way to learn how to play a character.
That used to be the case but now its no longer true. There are level 65s that have no idea on even some of the basics of the game let alone knowing how to play their character well. Its so easy to level up its not funny.
That is not an excuse to deny content access, that is a reason to make getting levels harder. I know how to play my toons throught the time I have spent playing them. So, tell me why I shouldn't get the same access that your overnight 65's get? And dont say because I didnt do the timesink. 5yrs of casual gaming to get to 65 is alot more time of 6 months of powergaming to get to same goal.
QuoteI know a ton of casual gamers that have gone from 1-65 in 3-4 months. Taking 2+ years to get to 65 is horrible now. You made 65 in 5 years so start looking for open raids on flag targets. You'll get in there eventually.
Why should I have my accomplishments devalued because you don't want to go through the same thing? Even causal raiding guilds can get to the elementals now. There is no reason to just give you access so that Sol Ro or elementals can become the next BoT.
First of all, casual gamers getting from 1-65 are not casual gamers. As for devaluing your accomplishments; your saying that like the original poster, I need to sacrifice RL to play this game? Is that what is gonna make you feel better seeing me in So Ro or elementals? Knowing that I had to stay up all night? That I had to go to work a mess? That maybe my marriage had to suffer? Is that the crux of your arguement, that I didn't sacrifice enough RL for the game? Yet, if you did the math, I have spent more hours playing this game then the 3-4 month powergamers. I have spent more time online hunting old zones for loot or for good times or for friendships then the 3-4 month powergamers rushing for xp hot spots or xp camps. Yet you have no problem with them? The ones that rushed through, and probably can't play their class anywhere as good as I can. Hmm, but I see your next arguement saying that I can get there with open raiding. That even the casual raiding guild can get into Elementals now. But then you add, why should I just get access so Sol RO or elementals can become the next BoT. So which is it? You admit that there is gonna be a huge influx of casual players into those zones due to open raids and casual raiding guilds. But me, who knows his toons can't have access because it is gonna make Sol Ro or elementals like BoT(rains)? The open raids or casual raiding guild may just be zerging bosses to get flags and a huge influx of don't know crap players may be let in to those zones.
I guess I don't see where you draw the line as to who should be let in and who should not be let in. It seems to me, that your stance is only let those that have suffered to be let in. What about those that have been loyal gamers? [/quote][/code]
Quote from: Cyphen Wilder
That is not an excuse to deny content access, that is a reason to make getting levels harder. I know how to play my toons throught the time I have spent playing them. So, tell me why I shouldn't get the same access that your overnight 65's get? And dont say because I didnt do the timesink. 5yrs of casual gaming to get to 65 is alot more time of 6 months of powergaming to get to same goal.
You know, until the beginning of this year I was a causal player too. Yet I know I didn't deserve everything that the uber's got without putting in the work for it. This isn't anything new, in Kunark you had Howling Stones, VP, and Seb. In Velious there was ST. In PoP there is only 6 zones you can't access through levels or easy quests (Time, 4 elementals and Sol Ro). You already have access to the majority of the PoP expansion, why should you get more?
They already threw you a bone with the 1400 point LDoN armor which is between Ornate and elemental in quality. There's rumors around now that they're going to add an even higher level. So why, with access to LDoN, do you think you deserve access to zones that people have worked for months to get into? You think "the ubers" whould be happy with a bone if they did? Like that AA they gave out when they opened up the majority of PoP to casual players? Yeah, I'll happily trade in 4 months of hard work for 2-3 AA's that I could get in a day.
This is harsh but you don't deserve access to Sol Ro or elementals just because you "pay the same". I pay the same for cable TV too but maybe you get more from it because you watch it more. We pay the same for a trip to Disney Land but maybe you get on more rides because you stay later. Why is this any different? You don't go buy Warcraft 3 or Halflife and expect them to give you all the units/weapons just because you don't want to spend to time playing the game like opther people do... how is EQ any different?
Quote from: Cyphen WilderThe open raids or casual raiding guild may just be zerging bosses to get flags and a huge influx of don't know crap players may be let in to those zones.
Because they actually worked for it and you didn't PoP mobs are zurgable only to an extent. There's still some stratigy that need to be used in order to win.
I play a whopping 3-4 hours a night (unless VT is up). That's not all that much. Just play 3-4 hours a night once a week and find some open raids.
Quote from: Cyphen WilderWhat about those that have been loyal gamers?
[/code][/quote]
Loyality has nothing to do with anything. Do I expect discounts from my ISP because I have been with them for 3 years? Why should you be rewarded because you play the game less than other people? Sure you've been here longer but you're not playing much so who can say if you have more /play time then they do.
I understand your frustraion in a way Cyphen, but EQ was build around working for accomplishment from the very beginning. There were always zones that were either too hard for casual gamers or just not accessable because you needed a certain key. Changing that later will devaluate the accomplishment of reaching it, in fact it gets evaluated by new expansions anyway just because of the mudflation that comes with it. Especially LoY and LDoN but GoD too added so much powerfull stuff for casual gamers that it is indeed very easy to reach time now with only 2-3 days raiding a week. With OoW it will be even easier and lvl 70 in itself gimps all previous content. Opening up elementals or even time is something i never want to see, even opening pov/pos/bot/cod was one of the biggest mistakes SoE ever did (except releasing GoD the way it was released) since there were always easy one group-flagging quests. I dont want to see another mistake like that again.
For reaching lvl 65 fast as casual gamer, yes it is very easy now, even was very easy over a year ago. I was a casual gamer back then, played between 0 and 3 hours a day and reached 65 within a few months untwinked and un-pled. If you cant do that you really have to learn more about the class your playing, or you just use everquest as a chat tool with nice graphics. And if you play for 5 years you certainly know how much better the gear is that you can aquire today.
Quoteeven opening pov/pos/bot/cod was one of the biggest mistakes SoE ever did
I disagree :) exp from 62-65 sucked ass in PoD :). Especialy for those poor Shaman who couldn't find a group of 65's to push his low DPS ass through.
Though, opening PoV and PoS would have been enough to that end.
I'm aginst any others being opened.. and I am not flaged for them.. but there are other problems... called gimme my freaking spells (I got for sham and beast.. but OMG the farming and paying through the nose to some Uber Guilded farmer...)
/OT/
I personaly think the rarity of runes pre elemental is a catastrophy... just because we are not uber guilded (you can't make that much farming the old content..) trying to pay 50k + per spell.. or gettting lucky enough that some uber guild farmer will MQ for us at a decent rate is rediculous.
Rarety of caster spells in GOD also sucks....
I want to smack whoever decided spells should be so hard to get... because casters have to/need to get Spells AND Gear to keep up with their melle counterparts.... twit Developers
I don't think I should have to farm UP for 5 months to get a character their lvl 65 spells... it's crazy
/OT/
I hoping that they don't open up the ele. The name of the game is Everquest, not Givemeeverthing. I have to work to get to these zones by doing quest. Even a causal player can find raids working on the flags to these zones. Join one, take the chance, and enjoy doing the Quests of EverQuest.
So here is the big question for those non Ele folks begging for hand outs: What do you think is gonna happen if you get to zone into Elemental zones? If your guild can't do the raids to get Ele. then they surely can't do any of the raid events there. If you send a tell to Random Pally #1 asking for a tank in your PoE group, good luck, but don't be surprised when your group is dead. All the stupid crap that goes in BoT will only be magnified in a elemental zone.
Tactics is open to anyone willing to work a little bit, and doesn't require a guild to do.
Asking for the Elemental Planes to be opend to everyone now is the same as scoring the go ahead touchdown with 2 min left in the game, and then finding out the other team only has to get to the 50 yard line to win.
This debate has happened on the main class board for every class in the game (cept maybe zerker). The people who spent every night for months figuring out all the encounters, enduring hours long CR's (more relevant to GoD than PoP i'll admit), desparately trying to form up faster than the other guys so they can claim the spawn and try their luck, then dying over and over and over again, finally winning and getting flagged for a different zone. Then other people see them in that new zone, and think "wow that'd be cool... hey I pay my thirteen bucks, why can't I go there?".
Sure, the content is old. VP (pre-revamp) was what, 4 years old? at least? and it still had a key requirement. Levels made that key easier to get, but you still had to go through the hours and hours of camping silly mobs to get it. VT is the same. Guys, the people who went through the hell of flagging will forever say to everyone else "We had to do it, what the hell makes you so special that you think you shouldn't have to do it?", while those who think they deserve it simply cause they bought the game whine that they wanna play there too.
It's hard for a reason, guys. Unlock ele's and you'll get a bunch of idiots thinking "yeah, we can kill that guardian of doofire! looks like diablo!" and blowing the fenin spawn for people that are trying to get to potime. Sure, it can happen now, but less likely since the people in there will understand the steps needed to get there and how stupid an idea it would be.
Unlocking BoT was bad enough. We all know what a hole that turned into. Letting the unwashed masses into ele planes and sol ro would be madness. To hell with what you think you deserve. Earn it.
Quote from: LatangThis debate has happened on the main class board for every class in the game (cept maybe zerker). The people who spent every night for months figuring out all the encounters, enduring hours long CR's (more relevant to GoD than PoP i'll admit), desparately trying to form up faster than the other guys so they can claim the spawn and try their luck, then dying over and over and over again, finally winning and getting flagged for a different zone.
If you didn't have fun doing that, you shouldn't have done it.
QuoteIf you didn't have fun doing that, you shouldn't have done it.
What does that have to do with anything? You didn't address a single point he made.
Since posting my original feeler, I did a little research. I have found much of the responses favour keeping them closed, not to say that this is representative of the whole community by any means.
However I did grab a snip from the original release information for PoP which can be found on the official website:
What is EverQuest: The Planes of Power?
This expansion will focus mainly on providing content to the highest levels of the game, allowing players to become even more powerful.
I noticed that even the official Questions and Answers forum prior to release did state the PoP would be available to all over level 46, however, emphasis was placed on this focusing mainly on providing content to the highest levels of the game.
In contrast, LDoN offers:
These new adventures offer many benefits, including a clearly defined goal, the ability to play and make progress in a couple hours per adventure, and the confidence that you can set a time to meet your friends and have a dungeon fully available for you right away - no competition and no waiting!
The emphasis is on allowing you to make progress in a matter of a few hours, suggesting that this is ideal for casual players and not focused on raiders.
It further states:
Experience a new dynamic dungeon system emphasizing personalized encounters reserved for your group of 4-6 players.
Again I checked the official boards for LoY and I quote:
New Zones (targeted generally for character levels 35-60)
And lastly GoD and I quote:
The new combat zones are for characters level 50 and over.
The reason I quote all this jargon is that even if you purchased PoP for one reason or another, it did say on the official boards what to expect from all of the expansions. PoP was for the high end players with some but less benefit to the casual or for want of a better phrase "weaker geared players/guilds".
Personally I bought all of the expansions for different reasons though they are of limited use to me.
I don't think I have ever spent more than 2 hours in LoY and that was just to get the spells and the Lizard mount. Not to say I didn't gain through the additional gaming features as well.
LDoN I bought for the augs, and because I don't like xp grinding in PoP.
GoD I bought just for the hell of it and I don't spend any time there. Maybe 15 hours total since it was released.
I have seen my guild grow up over the last 3 to 4 years and we have gone from struggling against Kunark Dragons to recently downing Fennin Ro. We have covered all expansions in the order of release (exc LoY) and are yet to really conquer LDoN raids or the highest points of PoP. I was VERY proud to be there at some ridiculous time in the AM for our guild photo after a long battle with Fennin Ro, wearing my Fiery shield alongside my comrades with a cheeky grin on my face and rez effects still flashing. It only took a few deaths each but it was worth it!!!
Directed to Cyphen, if you have spent 5 years playing EQ as have I, you will no doubt have seen a lot of the game. Therefore as a person who understands the game and reads the boards and eagerly awaits the expansions. My question would be, Did you not read these sections on the official boards? If you did, you will know as I did that it would take years and lots of effort to ever see such places as it has ALWAYS been. Many expansions were made for different reasons/levels/styles of play.
PoP was never released for the casual gamer to see ALL of the expansion, it was there in the official dialogue. Short of slapping you in the face with a wet kipper, how else were they supposed to warn you, if you don't play the high end raid game don't expect to see these places. I am well proud of my achievement, because I have been there through thick and thin with my guildmates for years to get where I am.
And yes we do backflag, pain in the butt as it is, because our new recruits join us with worse gear than Velious quest armour. We help them, nurture them, make them a part of the family and hope they will stay. All of which takes a lot of time. Many people I have had the fortune to call good friends in game have moved on and we are still in contact at Christmas and stuff even though they don't play EQ anymore. They helped me get here, but they won't see what I get to see.
We have casual players too and we log them on and flag them on their behalf to keep them up with the times so they don't feel left out and sometimes they log on with new gear they didn't know they had - something I think is a great personal touch.
So to end a long long, sorry to bore you all post. READ the notes, the boards, the manuals. READ every bit of literature you can find before buying the product so you know what to expect and don't feel quite so let down when you can't have what you see others wielding.
People want too much too soon, try to apply a little patience and if you want something bad enough find ways to help yourself get there. Oh and as previously noted, there ARE alternate quests for a few zones like PoTactics.
I don't care any more about the flag-required zones. Raids are not fun to me with very few exceptions. Every time I see some guildmate link some "uber" drop from Time or GoD and say something like "I'd give my left nut for that" I /sigh. The only interest I really have in raids is actually seeing the big mobs in action. I don't want to spend 4 hours so that 3 people (or whatever) can get some loot though. So, I don't.
Until "casuals" get over the loot envy you'll still see arguments like this one. After I finished my shawl quest and the link got passed around, several of my guildmates started on the quest themselves, getting their tradeskills up or farming drops. I wish there were more quests like that...but I guess it's easier to make a big boss mob, add a few AEs to it, and put some loot on it. I really feel like I earned the shawl. Tagging along with dozens of other people enough times to have a chance to bid on an item...bleh...I always hated just being a face in the crowd, a cog in the machine. Let them have it, I'm happy being responsible for my own successes or failures. (And I'm not saying that I only solo. I enjoy grouping--although not in BoT anymore really--since I know that I do make a difference and fulfill a role.)
I'm just hoping that SOE learned something and do OoW right. If by saying "45 and up" they really mean it...that the zones will be distributed in an intelligent way so that those levels will have alternates from PoP zones...I definitely won't care about more PoP zones being opened up.
Game on,
Quote from: RhaynneQuoteIf you didn't have fun doing that, you shouldn't have done it.
What does that have to do with anything? You didn't address a single point he made.
The only point of any of this is that some people want to be "rewarded" for the "effort" they put in, and other people want to play a game.
I don't hear people bragging about how much fun they had doing something; all I hear is people saying "If I had to go through this to get where I am, then by God so will everyone else."
The only point to getting into elementals for a casual player is the time spent/AA ratio. Getting AA is simply faster in Earth and Fire than in most other zones. A few of the one-group drops are worthwhile for a casual player (most of the one-groupable drops are in the "okay but not great, if none of the new people need it maybe I'll run my alt here" category for any guild that's progressed far enough for the Fire flag) but not really better than things you could earn in LDoN.
Since the benefit for time spent is probably slightly better in LDoN as a casual player (you get both decent AA and the choice of what gear you want to upgrade) and LDoN (as Gourge points out) was designed for casual players, I really don't see much point to elementals if all you want to do is group for a couple of hours. Raiding is, after all, what they were designed for. If you don't want to raid, why bother?
One thing that the advocates of opening dont understand, is that sol ro, elementals and time are first and foremost raid zones. 2 groups can by and large camp out sol ro if they are chain pulling. Ever see anyone xp in air? risk vs reward isnt there for it. Water? think kedge on steroids, again not a place many go to hit some AA. That really leaves earth and fire as the zones most people with acsess xp in. Hell anymore even these 2 zones are populated by no more than 2 groups on A Ro. Most people tend to play in hard LDoN or GoD. Other than the B zones(which are raid only anyhow) you cant get into 6 zones in PoP. Boo Hoo, cry me a river. You didnt earn it if you cant get there.
Would I like to see backflagging changed? yes, but ONLY to a guildflag like has been mentioned where your tag gets you the flag(possible needing a certain number of members flagged for it to work)
And as someone mentioned it, Yeah my guild has lost some people, but nothing that has crippled us by any strech of the imagination. Guilds at this tier generally have required flags for somone to even app with them, mine is no execption. And if we have to spend a week every few months blowing through some backflags, so be it. I dont know if its commonplace on other servers, but on Aro guilds doing a raid on a flag mob, tend to have acouple guests from other guilds along for the backflag, this more or less gentalmans agreement certainly eases the strain of backflaging(backflagging meaning the guild sending guests has won the encounter on thier own at least once or twice, not forward flaging).
Again, opening them just so some people who cant hack the content can ruin it for those who worked for it is a surefire way to alienate the raiding portion of the subscribers. More levels and AA trivialize content enough.
Quote from: Cyphen WilderI guess I don't see where you draw the line as to who should be let in and who should not be let in. It seems to me, that your stance is only let those that have suffered to be let in. What about those that have been loyal gamers?
Then I shall educate you. If you've earned the flags, you should be let in. If you've not done so, you should not be let in. That make it easier?
When PoP came out, it was technicaly possible to get to HoH, Torment, CoD and Tactics through alt flagging. In practice, these quest where either way too convoluted or too buggy to be effective. That is part of the reason why they opened up most of the Tier 2 and Tier 3 zones.
The only zone in PoP I'd like to see opened up is Sol Ro. The reason being Ornates drop there. However if I where to open up Sol Ro I'd do it via alt flagging just like Tactics that way people would still need to earn their way in.
IM in a casual guild full of casual players, and we have casually dtrolled into the ele planes ;p
Quote from: ChackraQuote from: RhaynneQuoteIf you didn't have fun doing that, you shouldn't have done it.
What does that have to do with anything? You didn't address a single point he made.
The only point of any of this is that some people want to be "rewarded" for the "effort" they put in, and other people want to play a game.
I don't hear people bragging about how much fun they had doing something; all I hear is people saying "If I had to go through this to get where I am, then by God so will everyone else."
Have you ever done something where at the time you hated doing it but later on down the road you can look back and realize how much fun or how worthwhile the time was spent? I know i have in RL and its how i also feel about a lot of the keying/flagging/timesink aspects of this game. At the time im working through it im hating every minute of it but now that i can look back, i think fondly of the times when i was with a group hunting down a named hoping for a key drop, or in a raid trying repeatedly the same mob and discussing strats and possible ways to win in guildchat.
At the time it may be a pain, but the journey to achieve the key/flag/zone/loot is almost as valuable as the thing itself. It's become apparent that those wanting these zones opened up for the 1337 experience or drops don't care about the journey but it is part of the game and part of progression and just because a group of people don't enjoy it doesn't mean it should be taken out. Because there is a whole other segment who do enjoy it and who would like the chance to be able to look back and think fondly of the time spent with guildies and friends working toward a common goal.
It is true that this is a game, but as with all games you have to play by the rules and one of the rules in this game is beat X mob to get Y prize. Why take away the thrill of earning the prize and the memories from people that have yet to get it and want to actually
EARN it? With level 70 coming in OoW earning the prize will be much easier so why not leave it in so people can still have something to work for?