Berserkers are being mistreated by SoE right now. Figure I would post this due to the fact that it took a while before we were brought up to the place we are now:darn good class, solid and fun to play.
They still don't have class AA, their discs are still somewhat broken, and its been longer than it took for beastlords.
I know a lot of beasties have a zerker alt, but I figured I would let some others know how they have been mistreated.
It always seemed to me that Sony ran out of class idea around the time of GoD. I have never played a Berserker (don't even have the expansion) so I am totally ignorant on the class.
It seems like an ill-concieved class. Berserker to me sounds even less appealing than warrior. I've grouped with zerkers before and all they seemed like was very unimpressive warriors.
That is what they are now. Well they can snare, and stun, but they have no aas different than warrior ones.
People said the same thing about beastlords on release, almost to the letter, although you could replace "warriors" with "shamans". Beastlords also had no class specific aa on release, and for a long time afterward (it was either around PoP's release or a relatively short time before then that we got them). All sorts of things were flat out busted for months, and we didn't even know if anyone was listening.
The difference is that with the top 10 lists, class correspondents, and the like, the lines of communication are much more open. There's certainly room for hope.
Just delete the silly class and be done with it. They have no role or place in EQ as it is today, and should have never been put in the game in the first place.
Every time I see a 'zerker, the only thing I can think of is "would you like to suck my c***, berserker?" lol.
Berserkers are basically what, rangers that cant track or dw or use bows? No thanks.
Class AA idea for berserkers: Ranger Gate (teleports you instantly to your bind spot, with all worldly belongings remaining at the point you last were) cast time instant, reuse instant 12AA hehehe
adding another pure melee class to the game was retarded...should have been a hybrid. Berserkers in chain with big, slow weapons and wizard nukes they can cast between swings or something like that.
--Kreseth
Beastlords were released w/ SoL in December... we didn't get our final fix until almost the same time a year later when PoP came out.
Berserkers came out in February?
I don't think they are being picked on. I understand their frustration, cuz we had it too, but its not some nefarious scheme by SOE, its just that there are a lot of things that need to be done. I would bet that OoW will see some improvements for them. I think they are doing ok... it just seems worse because its easier (lots) to get to 65 now... and thats where they are lacking.
Quote from: XarilokJust delete the silly class and be done with it. They have no role or place in EQ as it is today, and should have never been put in the game in the first place.
What role or place in EQ did Beastlords have during Luclin?
Neight
Quote from: XarilokJust delete the silly class and be done with it. They have no role or place in EQ as it is today, and should have never been put in the game in the first place.
If I had a nickel for every time someone posted that
exact same quote about beastlords back in the day .....
Quote from: Yiktiki
Berserkers came out in February?
It shouldn't matter if Berserkers came out last week they still should have all theri abilities available on release not 6-12 months after they are introduced. Adding a half finished class to the game is retarted in the extreme and theres no excuse for it.
That said I don't think Berserkers should be in that game in the first place.
My point was only that it took almost a full year before Beastlords saw completion.
Berserkers have a couple issues that make them a touchy area to balance in that they are:
a) another chain class (already had a lot of competition there)
b) supposed to be a DPS class (the other DPS classes will be pissed if they are negated)
I'm not sure it was a great idea to bring a new class in either, you can have too many and I think the SOE dev team is learning that the hardway. I can also see them doing the class as a showcase for new things they had recently created, namely endurance and melee abilities.
That being said... I agree wholy that a class should be DONE when they release it, not 'left blank so you could help us determine a role'. Flimsy excuse, they were trying too hard to please too many, they should take a hard line on classes and balance.
I did not understand the reasoning behind adding another class like the Berserker myself, I'll admit.
What I would like to see is another race, with a new Startingcity and newbiegrounds, and new Lore. :) I understand that this is costly to implement, but you'd at least not have to balance an entirely new class, which is tough also. People like to start anew, both with a new class or a new race, and they may have had more success if they'd implemented a dog-race (gnolls?) or some. There's still so many options: Gnolls, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs.
With their promise to return to the roots of Norrath Lore in future expansions (hopefully sidelining the whole Morden Rasp era), I would enjoy seeing new zones based on one of those archaic races.
They basically nerfed Berserkers HIDEOUSLY hard just before the end of GoD beta and to some degree changed the class with those nerfs.
And then pushed them live with about a week of testing (which is quite a lot for SoE I suppose :)). :roll:
Even if they'd let the pre-nerf Beta Berserker (which was IMO more what a real 'Berserker' should be) go live it'd still have been a weaker class, but after the nerfs and with the things not added and the things that just didn't work they were pretty terrible indeed.
Currently even if they sort out the broken abilities and add AA's etc. there's still no reason really most people would really WANT a Berserker in their group.
Zerkers simply weren't the type of class they should have added to EQ. There were a couple different directions they could have went, but zerker was definitely the wrong call imo. That being said the berserkers are getting work and they are only waiting on mostly code atm. Their AAs are mostly set and some of them are fairly cool/kinda goofy. Right now Zerker AAs are getting done before OoW AAs. I do think it's annoying that it takes so long, but I've just come to accept it and go with the flow. At this point though they are getting a lot of attention, the issues are very clear and it's just going to take a bit more time for things to get finished up.
This is probably because I don't have GoD and know nothing about Berserkers, but if I was a group leader, I'd choose just about any class over a berserker when lining up a group.
Out of sympathy for a broken class (and to show soe that the community cares more than they do) I wouldnt mind putting berserkers into the top 10 of beastlord issues, like: 10) Fix Berserkers !
just my opinion, I played a beastlord pretty much from the start so I ve got a slight idea how they feel bout missing AAs and be looked down upon,
really hope they get a fix and may become as successful as beastlords in the long run (I see ALOT of beastlords nowadays)
good luck to em and /sigh at sony
my 2cent
Exactly my point Choppin
/salute
Like I said though at this point it's just a matter of time. They are waiting on code. They've got the attention of the right people, most of their AAs are done and waiting on more code, etc. It's just a matter of time and then making sure what gets fixed and goes in works properly hehe. It's definitely an annoying thing to go through though. 8(
QuoteThis is probably because I don't have GoD and know nothing about Berserkers, but if I was a group leader, I'd choose just about any class over a berserker when lining up a group.
I remember when it went like this.
This is probably because I don't have Luclin and know nothing about Beastlords, but if I was a group leader, I'd choose just about any class over a Beastlord when lining up a group.
I know of one or two high end berserkers on my server (one being in my guild) and frankly, they have nothing to add to the high end game. Warriors can tank, monks can pull, rogues can drag/scout and add crazy dps, then all the casters are either pure DPS or have some sort of buff role (even necros have DMF). What do the berserkers have? The ability to snare or stun? That is one of the reasons I think they are underused and hopefully, as tastian says, its just a matter of implementing the code, before people start realizing their usefulness (I don't, heh).
Quote from: mrowrrQuoteThis is probably because I don't have GoD and know nothing about Berserkers, but if I was a group leader, I'd choose just about any class over a berserker when lining up a group.
I remember when it went like this.
This is probably because I don't have Luclin and know nothing about Beastlords, but if I was a group leader, I'd choose just about any class over a Beastlord when lining up a group.
I remember that all too well, Mrowrr. That's why it's really unnerving to hear these same sentiments posted *by* beastlords, when it really wasn't all that long ago that we were in the same boat (and some people will still say we don't add anything that's really needed at the high end).
I've been grouped with berserksers (under lvl 60) and they seem to add nothing to a group. I have nothing against the players at all.
As far as beast adding nothing to the end game, that may be true, but it sure isnt true for middle game (in the 50's). We were in dulak last night in a full group. Me (a bst), a rogue, a druid, a ranger, a warrior, a wizard.
The experience kinda sucked so me and the rogue went to duo (we are friends and duo often). We were tearing the exp up! The group we were in had to leave because they couldnt handle the mobs without us.
Like I said, dunno about endgame with a bst, but in the 50's, grouped with a rogue we are like chainsaws tearing through wood. We are both pretty twinked, and I don't think I've ever seen faster exp or mobs die faster from a duo than from a rogue and beasty together.
I think you're sorta missing my point, which is only that there was a time when beastlords added nothing to the high-end, added nothing to the mid-game, and where other classes were like, "why did they create this class in the first place -- they should just delete it now because they don't have a role."
Make no mistake, I'm in complete agreement with the people who say that berserkers need some work (and they need it PRONTO) to give them something that makes them more desirable to groups and raids. And I also agree that SOE should have *learned* from its experience with beastlords and not released them unfinished. I only disagree with the premise that the whole idea of berserkers is a waste of time simply because they don't have some class-defining role at the moment. Even if they never have one (we don't, really) that doesn't mean they won't ever have something cool to contribute to the game.
Also, there is a difference between not adding something unique and special all the time and not adding anything at all. It's not as if having a berserker in your group adds zero value to any group. It's that currently they don't do anything that some other class can't also do.
And the real question is, so what? I'm as big an advocate of beastlords as anyone but we don't do anything that some other class doesn't also do either. That doesn't mean that a class can't be worthwhile, or that it can't be fun, or that it will always be lacking in certain areas.
One day classes will be calling for zerker nerfs and posting inaccurate data about them too. :)
Isn't it true that Berserkers were supposed to go in with that "Opening" thing that people in beta hated so badly that they scrapped the whole idea? I thought that was why Berserkers seem so incomplete...their whole point of existence got scrapped pre-release of GoD.
Berserker should have been a Bard/Warrior Hybred:
Warsongs, Warcries, AA Skills unique enough and flashy enough to stand on their own merit (our Paragon does that for us).
Melee ? EQ Melee system really isnt that hot, doing much with it is like putting a pig in a skirt and taking it to the prom. To be a COOL system, put in hit-locations, scars, realistic effects of fatigue, crippling blows, and revamp healing to reflect it... Having a Warrior blasted by Dragon Fire, then crippled by savage bites and slashes to near death, being healed up as good as the day he left the Guildhall, over and over, is stupid.
Anyways, I am getting off Topic, yes, Berserkers are screwed up hard, and I think they need fixing.
Quote from: MhordelHaving a Warrior blasted by Dragon Fire, then crippled by savage bites and slashes to near death, being healed up as good as the day he left the Guildhall, over and over, is stupid.
Hehe. Wouldn't every 65 char be walking around looking like some sort of blob with broken/missing limbs, bruised flesh and lacerations? Not to mention the diseased boils oozing and spurting.
I didn't get luclin until almost a year and a half of it being out. Were beastlords broken to the point that they sucked even under level 50?
lol it's been so long that it's hit the point where I don't remember exactly how it was. Our warders and proc spells got completely changed. Originally our pet was a "buff" and took up a slot and we summoned them with a skill, the pet zoned with us, but defaulted to being much lower level until buffed back up. The pets could be CH'd by using the level buff and this lead to a few problems. There was no SD or SV line of spells at the time. Beastlords were definitely in bad shape early on. Even at 60 originally we had problems because our 60 spells of sha's/savagery basically didn't exist. I remember it was a good 6? months or so after luclin went live before I saw my first copy of sha's off emp as I recall. It's just been so long though that I'm not sure.
Quote from: Alerka
I didn't get luclin until almost a year and a half of it being out. Were beastlords broken to the point that they sucked even under level 50?
They were broken in the way that berserkers are, which is that there was no reason to say, "hey, let's get a beastlord over (insert class here)". Pre-50, beastlords use a level 5 shaman slow, so people were like "why would I get a beastlord over a shaman or chanter?". Our pets didn't do anything special (and they were much gimpier), so people were like, "why would I get a beastlord instead of a mage?" Our buffs were low level shaman buffs, so again people thought that there was "no point" to adding a beastlord. There was no pre-50 version of Spirtual Purity; there were no pre-50 versions of Spiritual Strength; there weren't even any pre-50 bst-only nukes -- instead beastlords shared Spirit Strike with shamans and fizzled the heck out of it because it has a 25 fizzle adjustment. Sure we could add dps, but so could rogues, rangers, monks and warriors. We could tank if we were twinked, but so could all of those other classes, and there wasn't the same level of twink gear available. Our proc buffs were all the same except for resist type, and they lasted for like 15 mins or something so we constantly had to rebuff.
The thing is, many of those things are still true. We still use a level 5 shaman slow. We still have gimpy shaman buffs. We still don't tank any better than another melee in the same gear. Our dps still depends on the right setup, and there are several other classes who can do more damage at that level.
Yet somehow, people don't think that beastlords add nothing to groups anymore. Fundamentally nothing has changed since then, and there isn't really anything that we do that some other class can't also do. The difference is that people are less focused on trying to find out what we do better than everyone else and instead just look at some of the things we can do. Once people start to do that with berserkers (and when SOE implements a few needed tweaks), they'll be off to the races.
Quote from: TastianlThere was no SD or SV line of spells at the time.
Well there wasn't a "line" of spells but we did get spiritual purity at 59 and spiritual strength at 60.
Yeah there wasn't anything before 59 for purity and wasn't spiritual str originally a mini-focus? I keep seeing the .dat for it in my head, but it's just been so long I'm not sure. I seem to remember it being changed over to the hp/atk buff it is now and the line going in, but I'm just not sure like I said.
Quote from: TastianYeah there wasn't anything before 59 for purity and wasn't spiritual str originally a mini-focus? I keep seeing the .dat for it in my head, but it's just been so long I'm not sure. I seem to remember it being changed over to the hp/atk buff it is now and the line going in, but I'm just not sure like I said.
You're right. I didn't remember this, so I had to go check it out for myself. :) Relevant information from Spell History for Spiritual Strength (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=2630&source=Live):
[code:1]09-04 11:33 Changed Mana cost from 425 to 150
09-04 11:33 Changed Slot 4 from "Increase STR by 67" to "Increase Max Hitpoints by 150"
09-04 11:33 Removed Slot 3: Increase DEX by 50
09-04 11:33 Changed Slot 2 from "Increase HP when cast by 250" to "Stacking1 v1 1: 150"
09-04 11:33 Changed Slot 1 from "Increase Max Hitpoints by 250" to "Increase ATK by 18"[/code:1]
So it used to add more hp plus strength and dex, minus atk, but cost a hell of a lot more. Interesting.
Neight
Adding classes when class balance is already messed up is something that SOE likes to do.. simply to sell more expansions. Adding more classes usualy breaks the vision even more.. We used to have 3 of everything for each primary skill.
Berzerkers and Beastlords...
Beastlords realy gummed up the balance works because they were created from the changes their "parent classes" wanted for balance :). It is not the beasts class fault obviously, but more the fact that SOE has screwed shaman and monks relatively speaking. Monk mitigation super nerfed.. almost gone.. and thanks to a cleric monopoly on being able to keep an experience group alive shaman are not allowed to bring anything to the table except a marginaly better slow and realy gimp healing. :)
Berzerkers on the other hand have not made many waves yet.. . but hopefully they can find a more unique roll, that wont trample on the existing classes. The best fix would probably figure out how to do the openings system in a way people like. Openings that lower the avarage damage each hit a mob delivers would be nice.. I mean lower the average a lot more than cripple spells (/snicker). Openings that make the monster considerabely easier to land hits on. or anthing else that makes sense.
I think there is more room in this game for crowd control classes. The enchanter and the Bard are the only ones I know of that realy do that job and bards seem to be rare.. probably due to carple tunel syndrome.
The game needs more capable healers (not just the cleric with their practicaly guaranteed spot in every single group)
Balance is a mythical concept, and thus if you want to claim balance before adding something new, you have effectively shut down your future development. Beastlords have nothing to do with Shaman or Monk "issues".
Quote from: ShamblerMonk mitigation super nerfed.. almost gone.. and thanks to a cleric monopoly on being able to keep an experience group alive shaman are not allowed to bring anything to the table except a marginaly better slow and realy gimp healing. :)
Don't really see how beastords were created from the changes that their "parents" wanted. It's not like beastlords got the mitigation that monks wanted or the extra healing/utility that shamans wanted. Everything we got from them was less than or equal to what they got.
By the way, a "marginally" better slow makes a significant difference in damage output. Slow uses a formula similar to haste, which is:
slowed delay = unslowed delay/(1-slow percentage)
Using a base delay of 10 for a mob, it breaks down like this:
Shamans = 10/ (1-0.75) = 40. Mob is FOUR times as slow as before.
Chanters = 10/(1-0.70) = 33. Mob is a little more than THREE times as slow as before.
Bsts = 10/(1-0.65) = 28. Mob is a little LESS than THREE times as slow as before.
Numbers are truncated based on info that EQ truncates numbers instead of rounding.
The difference between a shaman and beastlord slow is the difference between a 28 delay and 40. A mob slowed by a beastlord will do 30% more damage than one slowed by a shaman. That's not marginal at all.
I mention this because a lot of people seem to assume that the difference in MOB DAMAGE between the slows is 10%, and that's not quite right.
Also, the old pet procs did MUCH less damage.
Yeah they totally changed the pets and pet procs. This was way back with the old warder needs hth and didn't double attack? God so long ago. Glad to see I was right about the mini-focus lol. Sometimes I just think I'm losing my mind and other times I know I've already lost it lol.
"Adding classes when class balance is already messed up is something that SOE likes to do.."
Class "balance" doesn't exist. Class "Definition" is what they are going for now. They've been working on defining what a class is and is supposed to do and then building them around that. I'm really anxious to see what some of the class definitions are and a bit worried too. 8P
If berserkers could give overhaste, could reliably lock down 1 or maybe even 2 mobs, kept their snare/stun, and gave group end regen I'd find them useful in a lot of spots. An almost pure dps class though just wasn't what the game needed imo. There was room for another mez capable class, was a completely lack of an end regen capable class and only a single class with overhaste. *shrugs* will have to see where zerkers are in 6 months or so.
Eh, Shaman used to want to be more melle capable themselves :) This whining about healing is more recent (starting in PoP). Beastlords were made from a lot of ideas and sugestions for changes to other classes (mostly shams ehe).
I have never seen slows calculated like that...
Shaman slow is 10% better than beasts but only 5% better than enchanters. Compare that to the desparity in healing classes get. Thanks to a new trend called mitigation, the difference between slows is nill. The shamy problem with this right now is they/my shaman, bring almost nothing else to a group these days. Everyone will always take my beast over my shaman :), which is sad to me.
Adding more classes just makes balance more difficult IMO, but it definetly sells more expansions so I expect they will continue the trend. I don't want to see more classes that do the exact same things. They need to find a way to give them some uniqueness and stop farming things out to all classes.
I play a zerker alt and just recently got him to 51. Mainly a group of us wanted to do what that one guild is doing and take on old world stuff but with twink gear hehehe.
But, I know most of there problems have been stemming from 60+. Really pre 60 a zerker is a warrior that wears chain and has knight hpts. But being limited to 2handers when asked to MT for a group. I can do it but out of endurance pretty fast to hold aggro.
In that they have a snare and stun axe which does great at aggro but hard to hold if you dont constantly use em.
Then theres the war cry's. Since a nice monk blantly told me not use that disc ever again till it got fixed (apparently he was following stuff on the class) I dont even bother now.
I guess I'm drawn to broken or red headed step child classes though. Still have my ranger, rogue, monk, Jkal is and will always be my main, and a zerker.
But on the brighter side I miss'd when Tigger would say 'Ding' when I buffed him.
QuoteIf berserkers could give overhaste, could reliably lock down 1 or maybe even 2 mobs, kept their snare/stun, and gave group end regen I'd find them useful in a lot of spots. An almost pure dps class though just wasn't what the game needed imo. There was room for another mez capable class, was a completely lack of an end regen capable class and only a single class with overhaste. *shrugs* will have to see where zerkers are in 6 months or so.
A few of these things are almost able to be done now. They can keep mobs snared/stunned hower it costs an axe everytime they do it, adds up the cost of playing the class. They tank decently, better than us for sure, think high end they are on knight hp level.
The overhaste should be fixed when they fix Warcrys. This is could be their SD/Para type of feature. Warcry now doesn't work for a few reasons... blocks other class aa (SF), takes a ton of end, is on a long reuse, and just doesn't due too much. A few zerkers have wrote to SoE about putting it into the bard box, not having it block others aa, and just letting it do something.
QuoteI play a zerker alt and just recently got him to 51. Mainly a group of us wanted to do what that one guild is doing and take on old world stuff but with twink gear hehehe.
But, I know most of there problems have been stemming from 60+. Really pre 60 a zerker is a warrior that wears chain and has knight hpts. But being limited to 2handers when asked to MT for a group. I can do it but out of endurance pretty fast to hold aggro.
I think that's why people don't notice so much the lower level Berserker issues, they are there, but the high twinkage of many Bersekers and the relative easy of they earlier levels (relatively) tends to mask it a bit.
But really many of the later issues are there almost from the start.
Your pretty much right Gore. Being below the 60+ crowd of zerkers I really never noticed any of the problems that they are mentioning.
I do remember all the tears and trials and what not we went through with the bstlords. Might be another reason why I made a zerker. To go through again I guess but as an alt. :D
Quote from: ShamblerI have never seen slows calculated like that...
Shaman slow is 10% better than beasts but only 5% better than enchanters. Compare that to the desparity in healing classes get. Thanks to a new trend called mitigation, the difference between slows is nill. The shamy problem with this right now is they/my shaman, bring almost nothing else to a group these days. Everyone will always take my beast over my shaman :), which is sad to me.
I got the slow formula from this thread (http://www.beastlords.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30557&highlight=slow+formula#30557). I don't know the exact effects of mitigtion except that Absor or someone said a long time ago that mitgation worked such that it would still be better to have a shaman slow over another class slow, even if the mob mitigates.
I also play a zerker alt but I don't agree that they're "broken" per se, they're just incomplete. I don't have a problem with them making zerkers another chain class either. We only had 3 chain classes before zerkers which was the least amount other than leather classes.
There's not really a great deal of variety in what they do, although insta-cast stun, snare and jolt are pretty damn nice. I believe they also lowered the resists on the snares so for groups who specifically require a snarer beserkers are a good choice. The cost of components is trivial: a stack of blunt axe's will convert into 400 axes (20 x 20). 5 stacks and you've got 2000 axes at the cost of a few pp. You might as well buy these lower level regeants as the higher level snares which require more expensive components appear to operate in exactly the same way as the lower level ones. This is something else they need to correct like extending the duration or further lowering the resists.
If they enhance Frenzy (think a triple-attack version of Kick) so that it scales up in damage better, they add decent AA's and give them more skills based on crowd control i.e. giving them a mez skill and/or a decent duration overhaste skill then berserkers will be welcome into most groups. Their dps right now is not bad at all. It won't take too many changes to make them desirable.
I really do feel for those 65 zerkers who've got nothing right now to spend their aa points on. That is unacceptable.
I do enjoy playing my zerker though and I'm really looking forward to the planned improvements. Then we might see them becoming the twink class of choice much like beastlords are nowadays. Hopefully it won't be that bad :twisted:
Found this site while looking around.
http://p214.ezboard.com/bthebalancingchamber
Is a site dedicated to class balance.
heheh looking about on this issue, found something even better, some guys actually going to make a lawsuit against sony lol, here's a cut and paste of his initial post.
QuoteWelcome all berserkers.
I am warhound a 65 bers on mordin rasp. I was first on my server to 65 and first to be EP and time flagged. and 3rd to be GoD flagged. As you can see i have put in many many hours playing my bers from scratch and i am now no longer silent. I to am fed up with the non responsive Sony Ent. They sold a product that was incomplete, and thru customer service and many discussions was told that the fix was comming. Sounds like sony took a page from microsoft here and look what happened to them. I at this time have consulted a legal rep, of a firm in my home town wich is located in California. I wish to start a class action lawsuite against sony and other affiliates of the game EverQuest. I need as many people as possible to fill the requirment against sony INC. Please if you feel like many of us do email me at [email protected]. I think its time we spoke up and turned the gamming world around so they see that they cant put out poor products incomplete and then ignore their customers. I will refrain from refering them to other names other then sony ENT or Sony INC. as we dont need any other problems. we pay to play and pay for expasions that are by far incomplete. would you be happy to buy a car with AC and then told we will add it next month or 6 months later? Would you buy a TV and then find out it doesnt have a way to change channles and they will fix that as soon as they get to it. Yet they still work on the next styles of TV to come out next?? NO well me either. People get sewed for that. and so should they. Please email me and lets send a message to all the gamming communities that we wont be ripped off for faulty products anymore.
Thankyou
Shawn Clines
Here is a link to the thread,
http://www.goberserker.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1658
hehe funny stuff, GL to him ;p
I have the sudden urge to play the spank the monkey flashgame.
If he really is going to sue SOE, he's an utter, utter idiot.
Litigation is not the answer, and can only harm EQ by forcing SOE to spend cash defending themselves.
That kind of attitude makes me furious. I don't wish him good luck.
If ya read the thread, in a way he's right..it's about soe always releaseing unfinished expansions, broken classes etc, not delivering what they say they are.
They always deliver exactly what they say they will from a literal standpoint.
Last I checked GoD promised a Berserker, not a complete class. They delivered.
People are too sue-happy these days...the guy doesn't stand a chance.
And, funny enough, WoW is now going to be released "unfinished", because they didn't have time to put everything in at release that they thought they could. Imagine that! The great savior-to-be( :roll: ) cannot even deliver a finished product!
Aye, your right Terjyn. I looked up all the info I could on there products and couldnt find anything that stated we are releasing a complete beastlord or complete berserker. Yeah I went back to SoL release. Had to dig out my manual I got with it.
I even tried to direct them to that webpage from SOE on GoD. Basically what they released is what they advertised.
I could be wrong but I think theres a clause in the EULA that states on changes can be made without notice or something like that.
Basically, its come down to if you can find a loop hole you might have a case. But so far, I havent found anything like that.
I come from probably the most sue happy state of New jersey. And we mostly know if theres a loop hole or conflict in the way the law is we will sue.
More so one thing they will state, is the class's playable?? Answer is Yes. And with that there gonna keep asking what is broke if you can play. Every box has a list of requirements you need for your computer. They have a Tech page for interenet issues and gameing issues.
Past 5 years we know the history of EQ and we keep playing it and paying SOE the monthly fee. Why?? I know I do it to get away from RL sometimes, other times its to chat with friends online and goof around with them.
So is the game broke? No, you can still play. Have they ever stated releasing a completed zone or class? Not that I can find.
Good luck to him if he does get a hearing though. Personally I dont see it happening.
Very interesitng thread here...
I started my BST on the release day of Luclin and went through the grief of an unfinished class - He is now lvl 65 and 150ish aa's - and a very complete class.
I created my Berserker on the release of GoD and he is now lvl 65 with close to 40 aa's... The difference between the two experiences are night and day....
Beastlords were indeed released unfinished - yet from the getgo we had fixes and new updates on almost every patch. We had access to some of the best h2h weapons from Ssra - and could solo quite well from the start. We received our spiritual line after about 5 months in and we got our paragon and other aa's about a month later.
Berserkers on the other hand have had a couple small token fixes (snare adjustment, innate crits) and some high level content fixed as well (Tainted axe summoning fixed). Other than that SOE has been using the carrot on a stick tactic like I have never seen before... Next week, next month, next patch.... blech! nada
Some of the critical BUGS are still as prominent now as they were on release - especially the Cry line.
Berserkers need some dire attention!!! - especially now that there are 30'ish days before the release of OOW.
Hm, that's not in accord with my memory of the early days of our class, Sashti - I don't recall most of the early issues being fixed until about six months in, and we didn't exactly get much definition as a class until about a year later. The Berzerker situation appears about the same so far, but with slightly worse bugs.
Which is really, really stupid. Did they learn nothing from Luclin?
Drop the other class issues for now (yes, even ours) and fix Berzerkers. This is just ridiculous.
(On the other hand, that lawsuit is an amazingly silly idea. I suppose I shouldn't be amazed by this kind of thing anymore.)
That's not in accord with my recollection of Beastlords either...mine is more in line with Eatbugs.
QuoteLast I checked GoD promised a Berserker, not a complete class. They delivered
I'm fairly sure when you buy an expansion you
expect to buy a
complete class, not a beta class.
It's not just that Bersekers are weak or that they struggle for a role, but that they were pretty much unfinished and several aspects were totally broken.
Now considering many people (given the at GoD was designed soley for the high end) probably bought GoD purely for Berserkers that's not a good investment for your $$$'s.
Beastlords vs Berserkers is an argument that makes no sense
Beastlords are a hybrid class - they where given a roll in the high end eventually that didnt infringe on other classes much - we brought DPS, and Paragon/SD as our main priorities. second priorities where patch healing and slowing.
IMHO this was needed since before BSTs the only person you could rely on slowing was a shaman (most enchanters either were busy doing CC or went squish trying to land a magic based slow)
Many times if the only shaman died the raid would wipe to unslowed mobs eating warriors then clerics. (being a cleric previously i know my survivability vs a slowed mob and an unslowed one) I personally feel beastlords should be slowing trash mobs over shamans since we have a better chance of surviving (with protective spirit every 4 minutes) without the need for spam heals (and unnessessary aggro to the healers).
Berserkers on the other hand have a much more competitive field to encrouch upon.
DPS ... ranger, monk, rogue, wizard are the top DPS classes - all of which argue who is/should be top of the chain.
Tanking ... dont think a chain class will ever take the roll of tank (or offtank) vs any plate wearing class.
Another problem with berserkers is the fact that it adds another class to the balance of the game - with the stupid idea that all future expansions are going to be limited to 54 player raids (instances) this makes the choice for guilds on who should be allowed to go tougher.
Berserkers should not have been made IMO - there abilities should have been spread out over the two less loved melee classes, rogues and warriors. Throwing axes should have been daggers and given to rogues and warriors as a utility item for soloing as well as an ability to do sizable ranged damage without making rangers feel stepped on. sudden impact damage with a two hander should be given to warriors - when a warrior isnt MT they are only average DPS - give them the ability to "berserk" and there DPS could very well jump up to the top 2.
problem is berserker came out during the time SOE weren't listening to the players, and simply deleting a class is not really possible with the impact it would have on those who have or still play one. i think this will always be a black mark that SOE will have to live with.
Quote from: GoretzuI'm fairly sure when you buy an expansion you expect to buy a complete class, not a beta class.
Expectations are meaningless, some people expect that they should be able to get Time gear while being a person that no raiding guild would touch. Should that make it so?
What they promised, a class called Berserkers.
What they delivered, a class called Berserkers.
This isn't rocket science, and people who sue because their expectations aren't met invariably lose, and lose bad.
Expecting a finished product when you purchase something shouldn't be made fun of. If I buy a car I EXPECT that it will be able to run on the interstate.
There's a difference between an unfinished product that is basically unusable (a car that can't drive on the highway) and a product that is usuable but that has flaws that need to be fixed or improvements to be added later (computer software). Similarly, the reasonable expectations of a consumer buying each product will be different. People may call berserkers "broken", but they aren't really broken in a legal sense. You can roll one up, you can play it, you can level it, and there are even some people who (gasp!) enjoy it. Sure they have bugs and need balance fixes, but this game has had bugs and needed balance fixes for 5 years. It's not the same as buying a toaster that doesn't make toast or that electrocutes people when it's plugged in.
Besides, you guys should read the license agreement that you've all clicked "I accept" to hundreds, if not thousands, of times. It says that SOE disclaims any warranties, particularly as to fitness for a particular purpose or merchantability, and it says that they do not ensure continuous, error-free operation of the game, the software or any server. It's hard for you to say that you expected berserkers to be working according to the way you always dreamed they would when you tell SOE every time you log on that you don't expect a bug-free game.
hehe I find myself going back to the old Family drug verse gulf state case. Here's a little summary...
"
Family Drug Store v. Gulf States Computer
This is an important case for the point that it makes about customer satisfaction. It says that the law gives customers the right to what they were promised, but it does not give them a right to a well-designed product or to be satisfied or happy with the products they buy. Two pharmacists bought software from Gulf States. After they realized what they had bought, they asked for a refund. Here were some of the problems of the system:
(1) all data had to be printed out, and could not be viewed on the monitor; (2) the information on the monitor would appear in code; (3) numerical codes were needed in order to open a new patient file; (4) the system was unable to scroll.
This software was less expensive than competitive products. The buyers may have been dissatisfied, but there was no question of misrepresentation in this case–Gulf States' salesperson had demonstrated the software honestly before the sale. The buyers had gotten what they had paid for, and Gulf States was within its legal rights in saying that the buyers were stuck with it.
*
Lesson:
o
The law doesn't guarantee customer satisfaction.
"
Berserkers are a functional class that can move around norrath, can hit mobs, can join groups, etc. They aren't great and they are missing some frills, but simply put it's not a case that should even make it to court.
I always like how people use the car and computer software comparison. It still tickles me silly when I read those. :twisted:
QuoteExpectations are meaningless, some people expect that they should be able to get Time gear while being a person that no raiding guild would touch. Should that make it so?
No and that's a
total strawman arguement. :)
(it is
NOT in anyway
unreasonable to expect a decent even half finished class when you pay money for it, no?)
Really that was the whole issue with GoD (and part of the reason SoE crapped themselves and postponed OoW and did the guild get together and many of the recent changes).
But
if you bought GoD simply for access to a Berserker you were pretty much ripped off and mislead no matter how you look at it.
Is that going to stand up in law?
Probably not.
Is it something SoE should be doing now that EQ has passed its peak?
Again probably not (
if they want to maximise thier $$$'s anyway).
It is unreasonable to expect something which cannot be defined.
There is no definition for a "complete Berserker".
Thus, the argument is not a straw man.
Hell, Bards are clearly a very strong class but there are people out there who still claim that they suck and need vast changes to even be decent. To those people, Bards are not a complete class.
Yes but does ANYONE (other than you it seems :)) believe that Bersekers are complete?
Never mind when they were originally released.
Again to say that some people think bards are underpowered (which is obviously ridiculous) therefore ANYONE that thinks Berserkers are not complete are also crazy is AGAIN a classic strawman arguement.
I think the defination of a complete class can clearly be defined as having abilities that actually WORK and having all their AA's.
Now the other stuff (which is just as important IMO) cannot be so clearly defined, but equally most would agree they were severly lacking in these respects also.
Things break all the time though. I mean were beastlords an incomplete class when BF got bugged?
Berzerkers need attention and are getting it, but it's not like you log in a zerker and they just stand their getting beat into the floor. I've tanked with a zerker, I've done more dps than many classes, I've gotten upgrades, I've snared, I've stunned, I've solo'd early on, etc. They should have more and will get more, but some people are seriously making it sound like zerkers atm do less melee dps than bards, tank worse than mages and have fewer AA than my pet.
Atleast they got better itemization than bsts.
-Raz
QuoteThings break all the time though.
Yep very true, but also there's a big difference between breaking something unintentionally and
releasing something that is
broken.
Pfft!
Folks, it's SONY we're talking about here. They have never, I repeat NEVER, release ANYTHING related to EQ that was complete. You would think that most folks would be use to this by now. If you expect this next expansion, or even EQ2 to magically make everything better, then you better lay off whatever it is your smoking because they will be incomplete as well.
In the end, all you can do is just weigh the value of this game's entertainment -vs- the amount of complete BS you're willing to put up with from Sony, and decide if you want to keep footing their bill.
Don't ever expect them to change their stripes though. Why would they? We all continue to pay them for incomplete crap, so why not continue to market incomplete crap? It's a rather basic concept, and one that will forever be prevelant in this type of gaming genre.
Quote from: GoretzuQuoteThings break all the time though.
Yep very true, but also there's a big difference between breaking something unintentionally and releasing something that is broken.
But for something to be broken it must have been working at some point in it's past, otherwise what have you got to compare it with to call it Broken?
The court appeal will never get past stage one (well at least in the UK it wouldn't), and as someone else posted, Customer satisfaction is not a solid basis for any argument as peoples perceptions are different.
I do think they will be
VERY hard done by if the have to buy OOW to get their class AA's. however i do not think that will happen. SOE will get to much backlash from everyone of all classes if that were to happen.
QuoteBut for something to be broken it must have been working at some point in it's past, otherwise what have you got to compare it with to call it Broken?
Fair enough.
How about 'not working' or 'non-functional'. :P
Choose whatever
language you want, the issues remain. :)
(legally it differs from country to country and software is notorious for being hard to pin down anyway, but this isn't really a legal issue [despite that class case thing], more an issue of people who
seem to think it's FINE for SoE to do this stuff and those that don't.)
"How about 'not working' or 'non-functional'."
This is the point. Berzerkers do "work" they do "function". I've went to the character select screen, choosen berzerker, made a char. I've gained equipment, gear and AAs. I've gotten groups, I've done raids. I've done tradeskills, I've talked in OOC and everything else. Berzerkers even have AAs, some of which are quite nice. They simply lack some class specific ones and could use a few fixes to a couple of other things. The class is still playable despite what some make it sound like. My zerker still out damages a large number of classes, I can still snare, I can still do "ok" ranged damage atm. I remember back during kunark when my ranger was an aggro machine even without casting a single spell (seriously who's bright idea was it to put flux on a rng only weapon? lol). Also rangers had far too low defense, and got plastered. The still "worked" and "functioned" and ranger was the first to 60 anywhere. That didn't mean the class didn't need attention and it got it, but it did mean that it wasn't "not working" or "non-functional". Lot of it is just terms and some of it is lost in false perceptions or different expectations. Zerkers are getting attention they are getting justified changes made, but they are not unplayable atm or anything of the sort.
You're right. Why waste our time being concerned with Berserkers.
It's not a matter of wasting our time or ignoring them it's a matter of being realistic about it. I've done parses and passed along a lot of data about berzerkers, I've made lots of suggestions and totally admitted from the second GoD went live they'd need to be finished. However, I can't stand the people that make them out to be worse than they are or claim they want their money back from GoD or anything of that sort. I mean one guy on the zerker boards told another he'd give him 200k if he punched brenlo in the face and then said later he was joking. The code is being written at this point and the AAs are already known to some. This isn't 2 weeks after GoD, this isn't a case of SoE saying "currently being evaluated" or "not within the vision(tm)". They said "yup", "doing the code", etc.
QuoteThis is the point. Berzerkers do "work" they do "function".
Well the group abilities didn't work (unless they intended them to block everything :)), neither did certain AA's (as they didn't exist).
Other than that yes there were just somewhat weak really (with a few other specific issue with axes/abilities etc.).
Really
none of that should have gone
live.
Commercial pressure and
$$$'s made it do so, but that doesn't make it applaudable action of the part of SoE. :(
I mean I don't really understand what you want people to say here?
You think players should be PRAISING SoE for doing things that
should have been done
before the class was pushed live?!?! :shock:
Quote from: Kresethadding another pure melee class to the game was retarded...should have been a hybrid. Berserkers in chain with big, slow weapons and wizard nukes they can cast between swings or something like that.
They always reminded me of the DAoC beserker concept, but without the background gameplay to support it. If they were going to steal from DAoC again, they should have brought over the Thane or Smite Cleric.
Nah gore. I don't think zerkers should have gone live as is. I still think they need attention more than any other class and I want them fixed more than others. My only problem is how some people are going about it. On these boards it's not bad(beastlords as a whole rock like that), but to read some of the threads I do and see some of the things said it's just too much. It's like I told someone the other day people just take things a bit too far sometimes for the whopping 13 bucks a month they pay, I mean I can't even get full at mickey D's for 13 bucks lol.
They are getting the attention they deserve and they will get a lot better. Also they will get better soon as it's not like sony is just now talking about the issues or gathering info, but is actually coding fixes and changes. Some of the people screaming "unplayable" though are just over the top.
Unplayable is a bit much. They're playable, and pretty fun at that. There's just no reason to choose one over another DPS class. If you just want to be a DPS melee, go with a rogue or ranger.
I couldnt agree with ya more Tastain. Theres a guy that posted on 3 zerker sites along with EQLive. He basically gave everything away that was droppable, deleted all his stuff, did some other things on top of that and then deleted each of his characters and cancel'd all his accounts.
I mean, enough is enough. Theres a time to be rational and then there are some that are being child-like.
Yes, they need attention, but some of these guys are acting so immature about the whole thing its making me stop reading there sites for the time being.
And like Tastain said early, you can go to character select, create a zerker, play and lvl them up, get the aa's they do have and still function like a normal character.
Also, I started just when velious went live and had a ranger. I remember all the headaches they went through at that time also. But the class wasnt broke, you learned how to work around your imperfections.
Oh well, think I'm gonna stop ramblin' bout the class now and just grind more aa's :)
Quote from: Jkal_ShiharTheres a guy that posted on 3 zerker sites along with EQLive. He basically gave everything away that was droppable, deleted all his stuff, did some other things on top of that and then deleted each of his characters and cancel'd all his accounts.
I mean, enough is enough. Theres a time to be rational and then there are some that are being child-like.
And the funny thing is he's probably gonna REALLY regret it when they do get the full selection of AA's which is gonna happen any day now.
Don't be surprised if zerkers turn out to be as balanced (I nearly said powerful then, oops) as beastlords. That was my reason for creating one. I knew I wouldn't be anywhere near level 60 by the time they were complete...but at least when they are I'll have a brand new class waiting for me to demolish stuff with after already putting in the work to get him to a respectable level. Trust me, at level 34 he's already a lot of fun to play 8)
Quote from: Jkal_ShiharI mean, enough is enough. Theres a time to be rational and then there are some that are being child-like.
Yes, they need attention, but some of these guys are acting so immature about the whole thing its making me stop reading there sites for the time being.
That reminds me of a guy who created a Vah Shir Beastlord when Luclin went live and was spamming Shadeweavers with rants about wanting a port off of Luclin because he HAD to get to Norrath and the Moon sucked! We all had the same question.... why did you create a Vah Shir Beastlord in the first place! We were all stuck on that rock back then (no PoK portals in dem days) and there weren't players around to port people off of Luclin. We all basically yelled back at him to shut up and either stop whining or delete the damn character!
I don't really care about Berserkers because I don't know what they do. The only thing I see about them is a high level Shaman, Cleric, Druid, or Enchanter behind them powerlevelling. Either that, a platinum sink to twink the hell out of them. Whenever I see one, I just think who their main is and want to invite them to the group.
As far as making the class goes.. I think it's difficult to create a class. 10,000 people will be able to find niches, tactics, buffs, and other things in terms of playing a class which is more than probably 50 or 60 developers and others. Really the only thing they could do is create a class out of their vision, see how people react to it, and change accordingly. Especially now with the rampant class whines, whatever SoE decided to make people would just want it changed anyways. Saves much more time making a 'template' class.
IMHO they should be like Bard/Warriors that uses Endurance instead of mana. The buffs would be in longer duration and would only be able to use two or three spells aka skills and have burst buffs with short duration and somewhat lengthy reuse time.
I for one would like Sony to take a plunge and create something totally different in a class rather than create a class using subsets from other classes. Something totally new with new abilities.
I've been thinking of an underwater race - With it's own underwater city.
It's obvious advantages would be better underwater vision, no stanima loss while swimming, it's own set of water based spells, and spells for controling water based creatures/ or summoning water based creatures, ect.
Just like land based races who need special items/spells to venture underwater, the same limitations could be used for this new race to venture on land and breath air.
It would add something new to PvP servers as well, and finally open up all those ocean zones for new underwater content and quests.
Quote from: KinashThat reminds me of a guy who created a Vah Shir Beastlord when Luclin went live and was spamming Shadeweavers with rants about wanting a port off of Luclin because he HAD to get to Norrath and the Moon sucked! We all had the same question.... why did you create a Vah Shir Beastlord in the first place! We were all stuck on that rock back then (no PoK portals in dem days) and there weren't players around to port people off of Luclin. We all basically yelled back at him to shut up and either stop whining or delete the damn character!
Shar Vahl really felt like a home town before the PoK book came along - I sort of miss that. Now that anyone can get anywhere else in two minutes, there isn't much reason to stay in the area at low levels.
/nostalgia off
Quote from: EatbugsQuote from: KinashThat reminds me of a guy who created a Vah Shir Beastlord when Luclin went live and was spamming Shadeweavers with rants about wanting a port off of Luclin because he HAD to get to Norrath and the Moon sucked! We all had the same question.... why did you create a Vah Shir Beastlord in the first place! We were all stuck on that rock back then (no PoK portals in dem days) and there weren't players around to port people off of Luclin. We all basically yelled back at him to shut up and either stop whining or delete the damn character!
Shar Vahl really felt like a home town before the PoK book came along - I sort of miss that. Now that anyone can get anywhere else in two minutes, there isn't much reason to stay in the area at low levels.
/nostalgia off
Personally, I would like to see the portals limited to level 10+ to make sure the young'uns do their quests and hunt in their newbie zones. One shouldn't see a level 6 in PoK buying Temp to basically power-level themselves!
Quote from: KinashQuote from: EatbugsQuote from: KinashThat reminds me of a guy who created a Vah Shir Beastlord when Luclin went live and was spamming Shadeweavers with rants about wanting a port off of Luclin because he HAD to get to Norrath and the Moon sucked! We all had the same question.... why did you create a Vah Shir Beastlord in the first place! We were all stuck on that rock back then (no PoK portals in dem days) and there weren't players around to port people off of Luclin. We all basically yelled back at him to shut up and either stop whining or delete the damn character!
Shar Vahl really felt like a home town before the PoK book came along - I sort of miss that. Now that anyone can get anywhere else in two minutes, there isn't much reason to stay in the area at low levels.
/nostalgia off
Personally, I would like to see the portals limited to level 10+ to make sure the young'uns do their quests and hunt in their newbie zones. One shouldn't see a level 6 in PoK buying Temp to basically power-level themselves!
Personally I'd like to see players realize that how other folks play isn't any of their damn business unless that person is deliberately bothering them. Not all newbie zones are created equal & neither are all newbie characters.
--Kreseth
QuotePersonally, I would like to see the portals limited to level 10+ to make sure the young'uns do their quests and hunt in their newbie zones. One shouldn't see a level 6 in PoK buying Temp to basically power-level themselves!
I think PoK stones should only be usable if the character has ventured to the zone they are trying to access without the stones first. All this clicking to get everywhere, while it eases up traveling considerably, does sorta take a way from being immersed in a huge world like Norrath is supposed to feel like.
/agree Kinash. As an addition, I'd like to see temp as a min lv45 buff. Virtue and Kei were corrected to be...what, 46 and above ? Temp should not be landing on level 1's.
Don't think it's fair that another race's newbie zone is better than yours? Make a race that starts there then.
Quote from: Lorathir/agree Kinash. As an addition, I'd like to see temp as a min lv45 buff. Virtue and Kei were corrected to be...what, 46 and above ? Temp should not be landing on level 1's.
Don't think it's fair that another race's newbie zone is better than yours? Make a race that starts there then.
Why? Temperance is just an aego version of existing cleric spells that are under level 50 & can, therefore, hit anything. Sorry that kids today have advantages you didn't, but too damn bad. The game isn't the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. Everyone that prefers the original EQ content has the ability to play just that content without inflicting their way of playing on anyone else.
--Kreseth
Take it to the rants area - all I said was that I miss it. :P
Quote from: KresethWhy? Temperance is just an aego version of existing cleric spells that are under level 50 & can, therefore, hit anything. Sorry that kids today have advantages you didn't, but too damn bad.
I guess I'm peculiar in thinking an 800HP and 50AC buff on level 1's seems wrong.
And it's not about kids having advantages I didn't..it's about balance. Lowbies with 500%< extra HP than they should have just doesn't seem right. Hand on heart, do you honestly think it is? Yeah, times change, especially in EQ. But that doesn't mean every change is right.
I'm not out to spoil someone's enjoyment in the game just because I'm an old timer and it wasn't done back then, or whatever. I can see it's wrong, that's all.
Quote from: LorathirQuote from: KresethWhy? Temperance is just an aego version of existing cleric spells that are under level 50 & can, therefore, hit anything. Sorry that kids today have advantages you didn't, but too damn bad.
I guess I'm peculiar in thinking an 800HP and 50AC buff on level 1's seems wrong.
And it's not about kids having advantages I didn't..it's about balance. Lowbies with 500%< extra HP than they should have just doesn't seem right. Hand on heart, do you honestly think it is? Yeah, times change, especially in EQ. But that doesn't mean every change is right.
I'm not out to spoil someone's enjoyment in the game just because I'm an old timer and it wasn't done back then, or whatever. I can see it's wrong, that's all.
But level 1s have been able to get those stats since the first cleric hit level 49. This isn't new, it's just easier so fewer clerics say no. Personally, as a cleric, I never bothered to get temp since it's just a twinking spell & I had no use for it, but I can produce the exact same hp/ac with resolution/naltron/shield of words...or I think that's the 49 buff combo, it's been awhile :)
--Kreseth
Well, even at level 44, why would someone want 3 buffs to do the job of one when they have a limited number of buff slots? And you really enjoy casting 3 times the amount of buffs in order to get people's hp up?
It does make sense to me to raise the level limit for 40's spells. Actually, at lower levels, I'd rather have some nice regeneration spell, or HoS on than Temp. It's kind of odd that only after level 49 or whatever do spells suddenly become too powerful. I doubt it will ever change, but I don't think I'd be too angry.
Game on,
All things being equal this is the beastlord forum... who gives a flying s**t about zerkers!.
If you really have a problem why air it here
As far as buffs go...so what? Who cares if they hit Lvl 1 or Lvl 51?
There are very few "n00b's" left. Most of these Lvl 1's have done the road to 60-ish before. IMO, anything that makes the road a bit smoother, the better. I know I've been at this game since Jul 99. I also know I dont need to get bitchslapped by "an orc pawn_001", wearing patched leather I crafted myself, and a rusty mace all over again, just to know how to play. Ive said it a million times...Its their dime and their time. Let them play their way.
As far as Zerkers go...
I think the folks who stuck it out will be highly pleased with the re-vamped Berzerker. SoE did not go to all the trouble to make this class to leave them as is...though, it is a shame they had to wait for the next expansion to see their individual bailities. I would not be surprised if when their re-vamp goes live, there will be many bitter people over what this class received.
This is of course just opinion. My $.02, and with inflation probably worth much less.
Quote from: KresethQuote from: LorathirQuote from: KresethWhy? Temperance is just an aego version of existing cleric spells that are under level 50 & can, therefore, hit anything. Sorry that kids today have advantages you didn't, but too damn bad.
I guess I'm peculiar in thinking an 800HP and 50AC buff on level 1's seems wrong.
And it's not about kids having advantages I didn't..it's about balance. Lowbies with 500%< extra HP than they should have just doesn't seem right. Hand on heart, do you honestly think it is? Yeah, times change, especially in EQ. But that doesn't mean every change is right.
I'm not out to spoil someone's enjoyment in the game just because I'm an old timer and it wasn't done back then, or whatever. I can see it's wrong, that's all.
But level 1s have been able to get those stats since the first cleric hit level 49. This isn't new, it's just easier so fewer clerics say no. Personally, as a cleric, I never bothered to get temp since it's just a twinking spell & I had no use for it, but I can produce the exact same hp/ac with resolution/naltron/shield of words...or I think that's the 49 buff combo, it's been awhile :)
--Kreseth
Too much easier. Before PoK a low level really couldn't get Temp unless someone was power-leveling them since anyone able to cast it was usually in a level-appropriate zone playing. There was no safe place that a level 1 could go without getting killed on the way to get those juicy buff! Occasionally, you would get some kindly player you would buff the lowbies as they were passing through, but it wasn't something you could count on. Now they just click on the book... a viola.... you can get all the buffs ya want! :o
Before PoK? Hell, before LoY there wasn't even a spell in the game called Temperance. And no, combining all buffs that a cleric has access to at 44 (before Temp) doesn't give you the same effect as 800hp and 50? AC. I can see where some people take up issue with this, and I agree to a point. Anyway...back on track..
I have a level 35 berserker alt. They do have some issues but they are coming along and progress is being made (innate crits, anybody? SOE originally said...NOPE, NO WAY). And yes, I'm an old school beast, been playing since Luclin release. We were in the same boat back then. Hell, I can remember reading the patch message when they added Cancel Magic to our line-up. I've said this before, and I'lll say it again now, give them time. They'll find their niche, and this will all be forgotten, except by those, who like the old timers among us, were there before it was all golden.
In response to Kreseth giving Grimgrey a hard time and stating:
Personally I'd like to see players realize that how other folks play isn't any of their damn business unless that person is deliberately bothering them. Not all newbie zones are created equal & neither are all newbie characters.
I know Grimgrey aka Eatbugs in game and he is a great guy and a fellow Beastie and guildie, not to mention if you read most of what he says on the boards, he is a very considerate and sharing person. I did check to make sure this was the rant section before I was gonna give Kreseth a mouthful, but then decided I gain nothing by attacking people, but I will defend the honour of my friend.
All Grimgrey was doing was giving his opinion and reminiscing of the times when newbs didn't roam freely begging for stuff and effectively buying their way through the levels by using Planar Books and high level buffs, regardless of whether they have 5 or 6 level 65 toons or not. This is not really that dissimilar to the old spellbook meditation which vanished in the end as you passed a certain level. With time and effort you were able to benefit from more is what Grimgrey was saying.
I don't think anyone even Kreseth can disagree with the idea that as you gain levels you want to have greater power, ability, buffs, and are able to visit better places.
Now this is JUST my opinion, and I have been playing EQ since the beginning also. I will always take time to explain stuff to new Bst as they progress and are curious. I don't resent them getting better gear but I have also seen them spamming PoK with requests and asking me for some Bst buffs just cos I am in the same zone as them. I believe wholeheartedly that to truly appreciate what you gain, you have to appreciate the time and work involved in getting there. I see twink Bst that don't have full spellbooks who fizzle like crazy and ask for buffs to save them time. The reason they tell me is that why bother with low level spells when they just level fast and get the better stuff. Surely part of the experience is to enjoy the gains as they happen and not just jump from zero to hero. It amazes me how this mimics real life and how children want what adults have before it is right or proper.
As I said, that is JUST my opinion, we each have our own and are entitled to it. Rant all you like guys, but DON'T forget you should still have the maturity to treat people with respect and agree to disagree.
As to newbie zones not all being equal, this is very true Kreseth you are right there, on that I agree with you totally. When I made a Troll, KoS to most places, I think facts like that were already factored in when I made my Bst. Anyone who feels hard done by where they start out should perhaps think more about what benefits each race/class has before they make them.
that said, I apologise to the rest of you if anything I said sounded off, and no hard feelings Kreseth, I may be a Bst but I have no animosity here. I will let you guys return to the topic thsi started as, whatever that was hehe.
Give it a year or 2 - most classes will want them nerfed by them - same life cycle we are in.
Anyone know what the next phase is - im tired of the nerf calls etc?
Give it a year or 2 - most classes will want them nerfed by then - same life cycle we are in.
Anyone know what the next phase is - im tired of the nerf calls etc?
Quote from: cougerofeqAnyone know what the next phase is - im tired of the nerf calls etc?
Yes. Morons of Norrath (the whiners Trade Union) have sheduled a "Cleric bash Weekend" that commences Friday the 24th. They hope to succesfully petition for the complete removal of all Cleric heals. Reason being it's not fair on classes who can't heal. They've parsed it and have proof. Honest, they have graphs and Venn diagrams, all coloured in. For more information scan all the EQ class boards. Members of MoN are real easy to spot - send them a PM headed "I'm a f****** loser too" and explain your interest.
Additionally there will be a whole week where anyone caught casting slow or mez will be lagged out of the game by spam tells, and use of weapons and spells will be considered a 'sploit. Kick is instead to be used. If you haven't got kick, you're to kill the mobs with a combination of parody and sarcasm. If you do have kick, make sure to remove any sturdy footware. Slippers are ok. This will balance all the classes and solve all the problems by making everyone gimped - unless someone is particualrly liberal with the use of flippancy. People caught quad kiting using flippancy will be reported.