"3) BL pets must have knockback effect eliminated during raids at all times. This includes bash effects as well. Using a 2hb (can be weapon summomed by mages) is a must even at dps cost." Apparently I am the only person in my guild that sees any problems with this quote. Taken from officer's post regarding rules for pets on raids... as if it really matters because we aren't even allowed pets 99% of the time. What's even better is the fact that this perception on warders seems to be a serverwide "fact." What the (insert 5minutes of swear words here) can I do to enlighten people who won't put any value in my words unless I can provide cold hard data that contradicts the "facts."
I know this as an old old rant but it just pushed me over the edge when we last did RZTW and people sent me tells asking why I didn't have a pet up. I got so sick of being jacked out of 30-40% of my DPS on raids that my warder "deguilded" almost a month ago and people just called me childish. It's my choice anyways whether or not to use my pet (or so that was the rule when I joined this guild)... when people start saying crap like, "You want us to fail? We need the pet (rampage) tanks on RZ." I just want to fucking scream.
"Warders (just bst pets mind you) are a menace." "Players don't cause push, that's a feature they added when Luclin came out that only warders have." "The only thing that pushes mobs through walls is pets." I could go on for hours about the stupidest things I have been told by Torvites regarding warders. Instead I will go backing to demolishing this brick wall with my skull.
Quotemy warder "deguilded" almost a month ago
Something about this line is funny as hell. I'm gonna have to try this next time my pet gets blamed for anything. In the past month, he has three broken mezzes, rooted a mob, and trained an entire group while on pet hold.
Neat since pets can't break mez, warders can't root & they shouldn't train since they'd stand and fight. Where can I send my warder to learn how to root, that could be useful :P
Did Saryrn cycle last night. Had 30 melees on the back of a mob + 1 MT on the other side. Mob gets pushed all over the place and a Paladin starts complaining that pets and monk AA kick are pushing the mob all over the place. I look around and only see one necro pet. Yeah blame it on the pet, 30 melees have absolutely no knockback.
I guess the point was Jareen was that my pet can't even do have the things he's blamed for. And yes, I have been told my pet broke mezz when he wasn't even engaged on that particular mob. Warders are easy scapegoats, they can't even defend themselves.
how to handle guild smacktards who don't know anything
step one
make a guild pet channel during the raid
use pet while clearing trash
have all pet classes suspend pet just before boss mob
explain that you are making a point about your pet not being responsible for all the evils blamed on it
when someone blames a pet for something, ask if they see any pets...then ask your guild leader to kindly de guild the blind person, as they are a detriment to the guild if there eyes don't work right...
or
just use a sharp knife and have it embrace there left eye...
The bst warder does have a huge push (pet proc/bash) but so do melee (although most push comes from bash/kick) and most spells, but i use it as a benefit i place my pet to offset the raid from pushing mobs. make due with what you have and use it. that is what seperates the good from the great bstlords.
Pets can, and do break mezzes, albeit it's not that common. And even if it is really NOT the pet doing it, but an odd agro situation, it's hard to try to sell that when "XXXXX has been awakened by YYYY's Warder" is on everyone's screen :/
6 people with pets up is a drop in the bucket to 30 melee's bashing a mobs. And even IF the warder had this knockback effect, 99% of raid mobs are pinned into one place anyway, so if the pet really WAS pushing that hard it would be a good thing.
Will all due respect, your officer is an utter idiot with regard to understanding pets.
ive recently struggled with the same thing in my guild. luckily only a few members started posting idiotic things on our message board, mainly one of our main tanks, about how bst pets are pushing too much, and this is the kicker, how my pet kept snatching agro from him on a solro mini. yah thats right, he blamed my pet for taking agro AWAY from him, a PC... luckily most of the guild arent idiots and understand general ways of the pet. and the most important thing is i posted a non ranting non flaming post of facts about how pets and push and pet push and agro and pet agro etc etc etc all work, and most of the guild including several officers said that if i, an actual beastlord, am saying how my pet works then they'll take my work for it.
hopefully you can get some sane people on your side to help educate others. its not easy when people of a powerfull nature are against you or your pet (in my case our 2nd best tank). i know that if idiotic statements and urban legends became accepted by my guild and i wasnt allowed to use a pet or got a ton of bs for it that wouldnt be my guild for long. not just because pet bashing is usually just bashing the pet owner (even push, since yes its pets that push but the pc has to position it), but more importantly i would run for the hills as that guild and its general ways are very very outdated and dangerously ignorant.
only partially on topic, but didnt want to start a new post so...
some claims that were made against my pet on the recent bst pet bashing post on my guilds message board:
4 bst pets = needing 15 melee to compensate and counter bst pet push
bst pet proc has a huge knockback effect
4 bst pets blocked a mt from even being able to move or approach a large dragon
a mt didnt use defensive, bloodfrenzy proced 25 times was chain taunting and inciting and still couldnt keep agro (and attributed it to bst pet stealing agro)
bst pets push more then other pets (maybe true for some of the mage casting pets but dont see why bst pet would push more then other full on melee pets, who knows dont feel like testing really)
its not the actual pet thats pushing, or the stun component of bst pet procs since the proc doesnt even land on most named raid mobs and not even usually on trash mobs, its the DD that is actually what causes bst pets to generate so much push
bst pet push is most easily solved by positiong pets spread out around a mob (cuz other melee cant move and god forbid a mage or necro actually have to think about pet positioning!)
bst pet will push a mob with 10 pcs on other side
yah so this was some of the accusations and theories i was up against, and of course i posted a long and somewhat mild non rant of an informative post, and luckily most of the other bsts posted agree with me and we all had a good laugh at the things people can dream up. its kinda flattering, all the hubub over us!
my advice: find informed people in the guild and hope they go to bat for you. try to post positive non ranting information on your guilds message board about pets and how they work (example of this is one point i brought up is that if a bst pet is pushing so much maybe train and give bsts in the guild duties to counter push gone bad, of course requires bst to be trained to reposition a pet, which isnt all that hard since we're melee and can jsut circle around, then instead of bad push you have you AND pet countering push!). as a last ditch thing i would consider a new guild, i know that when the bst bashing post was first made on my guilds board i felt very offended and trivialized and luckily most of the posts were in my and the other bsts favour, but if they werent and bst hate was allowed to continue and even be perpetuated i would have considered a new, more informed and respectfull guild.
Does anyone know how many hits a warder can do in 1 second fully hasted? Since each hit will push a bit the faster you hit the more you push. Most melee use relatively slow 2H that presumably push less. Its possible that warders do push more than the melees because they hit alot more times.
Perhaps directing the igornant ones to the lucy database when the proc can be seen to have no pushback would be a help.
The worst thing for pushing in my experience is pallys bashing and stunning.
Well, if you'd made an Iksar or Troll instead of a furball, you could sneak out a pet and nobody would notice. But nooooo. Gotta be a litterscratcher :P :P
Quote from: The KittenpeelerWell, if you'd made an Iksar or Troll instead of a furball, you could sneak out a pet and nobody would notice. But nooooo. Gotta be a litterscratcher :P :P
Ah yes, troll/iksar warders that are fucking gigantic compard to the amount of constructive input you. Please to be pissing off with your ignorant race bashing.
Ooooh.. Ignorance about pets.. I -love- this issue.
I like to think, whether rightfully so or not, that I understand a good bit about the game and how some things work.. And there is nothing I enjoy more than talking down some annoying whiner at a raid that blames pets for something.
In fact, I made a rather lengthy post a while ago on the board for my guild's alliance about how pets are highly beneficial.
Yes, our pets create a good deal of aggro. No, our procs do not have any special knockback that any other DD doesn't, of course unless you're using Spirit of the Wind which DOES indeed have a knockback. But who uses that over Storm/Rellic, anyway? ;) (Admittingly, I do sometimes just for fun, when the raid sees mobs starting bouncing around like mad and panics.)
Yes, melees produce a heck of alot of push, when I'm solo'ing, I always get on the opposite side of my pet, and nearly balance it out.. So, these ten melees it takes to balance out your one pet.. Well.. They must all be naked, slowed and wielding worn great staves, at best.
Our pet's aggro.. Yeah, they aggro like crazy mad. In fact, 90% of the time if a mob gates, MY warder gets summoned before the MT and before the clerics. Our pets are just like that. However, if there's a player in range, they will have aggro.. No matter what.. So yeah. ;)
But really, more than anything, I hate to see this kind of ignorance, and I hate that it's so widespread. Few people that I just run across seem to understand how pets work, and pet seem to always be first on the scapegoat list.
Quote from: TytalliaQuote from: The KittenpeelerWell, if you'd made an Iksar or Troll instead of a furball, you could sneak out a pet and nobody would notice. But nooooo. Gotta be a litterscratcher :P :P
Ah yes, troll/iksar warders that are fucking gigantic compard to the amount of constructive input you. Please to be pissing off with your ignorant race bashing.
nice civil and constructive post.
One in every litter Vecsus....
But, back to the topic on hand.
ARo people seem to have been edjucated upon the subject of pets which i am greatful for. due to this i have been fortunate to have not run across very many people on ARo who think this way.
AFAIK, a fully hasted pet could land 4 attacks in a round - maybe 5 with a proc. I don't think it's possible, but maybe in theory, he could land 4 claws, a bash + a proc for a total of 6.
Then again, if we are gonna go that route, a monk *could* land 6 melee (twin triple attacks) a flying kick at if each weapon fired it's proc once, you would have 11 attacks in a second :)
To make a point, you should next raid, get the raid to all hold off on a yard trash mob. ONLY the MT, and another true double attacker with decent weapons- war/monk/ranger engage the mob from the from. You an another beastlord slip behind the mob and engage pets (w/o spirit of wind). Let those 4 fight until the mob is dead & let everyone see which direction the mob gets pushed. Be even more fun to watch if the MT was a pally.
Now pets CAN get in the way of melee - just as other melee can, so that might be logical complaint, but assuming the MT was first on the target, it should not be an issue. Heck there are sometimes that I can't ever get in range to hit a mob when there are 67823042 melee crowded into a small hitbox critter.
Oops forgot - ARo I would think would be a good server in that manner. It's a very old population server, even tho the server is not that old. I think it was one of, if not the first split server. CT is a very old server, and I know a lot of CT went to ARo, as did a lot of the Uber guilds from other servers when it was opened, so I would guess it's player base is actually MUCH "older" than the server itself.
Maybe it's due to an old server, maybe it's just luck, but I have never run in to much wild pet hate on CT, aside from the usual FTards that also insist on have a dex buff on the wizards to help them cast :roll:
This seems like a good place to post this, so I gotta ask.
How does push actually work? I simply don't get it.
When my pet is offtanking something, the mob doesn't move. It just stands there.
When I'm tanking for my pet, even if I'm standing on the same side as the pet, the mob still doesn't move. At all.
However, put a Paladin on the opposite side of me and my pet, and the mob will get pushed all over hell and back.
Replace the Paladin with an SK, and the mob won't move...until you add in Rangers, Rogues, Magicians, Wizards, etc.
I'm very lucky, myself. One in that my guild isn't taking on very very high end stuff, and two that I'm one of the more respected members of the guild. If I say something, at least half the people believe it.
I've told my guild that unless there is a penalty for having a pet (such as AEs causing agro, or maybe mobs spawn when a player/pet dies), they're not going to tell me not to have my pet up. They can either disband me from the guild (not bloody likely), or understand that I know more about my pet than they do. No one challenges me, but I realize I'm very lucky to be in a guild who knows I know my stuff.
Sorry but if your pet is pushing mobs into walls then it's YOUR fault and not your pets.
Pet push is easy to control unless you are a lazy BL that just says pet attack and then forgets about him. I constantly work during a fight to position my pet (get lots of compliments on it), and I will put him on hold before I let him push mob into a wall.
I have a hot key that does a pet hold followed by a pet back off, I use this key to position my pet to push opposite the main tank. Main tank decides which direction the mob is to head and it's all melee and pets job to be opposite him. As a guild we practice this all the time and as a result we lose very few mobs to push. MT will give directions during the fight on where he wants mob to go and it works well.
Warders are not a fire and forget weapon, work on positioning your pet to advantage (helps if rest of the melee do it also) and you will rarely lose a mob to push.
The only way pets can break mez is like this and its rare as hell because the very VERY small time frame it can happen.
Zorthar`s Warder begins to cast a spell.
So and So starts to drool
Z`s Warder proc lands
So and so has been awakened by Z`s Warder
The time between this happening is a fraction of a second. I am thinking an issue could happen with shielded mobs too like.
Froglok_01 uses froglok_02 as a shield.
Froglok_02 begins to drool
Z`s warder hits Froglok 1 for 20 points of damage
Z`s warder hits froglok 2 for 20 points of damage
Froglok 2 has been awakened by Z`s warder.
Ghoat wrote:
QuoteWill all due respect, your officer is an utter idiot with regard to understanding pets.
Im in the same guild/server as Tytallia, unfortunatly your not seeing the whole story here. Notice how Tytallia's post started with the number 3? Heres the rest of the post.
QuoteWhen the raid lleader asks for no pets there should be no discussion. Pets need to be suspended or killed asap. There are reasons for this but, the point is the RL has asked and discussion should end. I get tells from pet classes every raid asking "Why can't we place pet on hold." There are a few reasons as follows:
1) Raid Leader requested End of Discussion
2) If another pet class sees a pet out and was not paying attention, then they will send the pet to attack against the RL wishes.
3) BL pets must have knockback effect eliminated during raids at all times. This includes bash effects as well. Using a 2hb (can be weapon summomed by mages) is a must even at dps cost.
4) See # 1
Please follow the RLs request and if No Pets are called dont send tells explaining why you should have a pet or pet hold Kill the damn pet or suspend end of story.
This was originally posted november 23rd. When it was clear these new rules were still not solving some of the problems the guild was having on raids the officers changed this to 'No pets period'. I would add that not all of our problems on raids were centered on pets, it was just one that at that time the officers felt best handled by removing them from raids.
Silresa wrote:
QuoteOoooh.. Ignorance about pets.. I -love- this issue.
This isnt ignorance in the least Sil, we have officers in the guild who are pet classes and they are the ones who created the original rules then changed them.
Bugman wrote:
Quotemy advice: find informed people in the guild and hope they go to bat for you. try to post positive non ranting information on your guilds message board about pets and how they work
LOL Tytallia tried that already, didnt work.
Bugman wrote:
Quoteas a last ditch thing i would consider a new guild
Good advice Tytallia, maybe you should consider taking it, your clearly NOT happy here.
Xilbeast
I'll still stand by my statement, even after seeing point 1 and 2.
Now, this is working under that assumption that if you are in a guild that raid,s and you are a pet class, that you would have Pet Hold before just busting out a pet "because you can"
There are really very very VERY few fights that pets cannot be effectivly used on - mostly in PoW. A RL should not ever have to give a "kill all pets now" command. The "fire and forget" comment above was good - being able to control pets on raids is a must, but unless people are just really stupid (and I am certainly not saying you or your guildmates are) "kill all pets now" never needs to be said. A RL saying what he wants done with pets & how he wants them used is one thing, but a general banning of them to me says that the RL is really pretty clueless about them, or the pet classes on the raid need to be beaten with a stick - often.
Now I do agree that during raids is not the time for a philosophical pet debate, those can be done during downtime/offdays/guild boards etc.
I'd like to quote a Jowwa sig at this point.
"Mobxxx has been awakened by Druid_01" "KILL ALL DRUIDS NOW!"
I always liked that sig :)
Xil if you ever bother to group with and/or chat with me you would know why I joined NDR in the first place (I joined about 8 monthes ago, you joined 4 monthes ago). I am totally happy being in a guild with my friends. The fact is someone referred me to that specific quote from the post in question saying basically, "if an officer said it, it must be a fact about pets." Mainly in regards to a player being able to turn off it's pet's bash attack. I am still unable to find a hotkey or command that does this.
Bugman yes I tried making an objective/informative post about the asset of having a pet on the aggro list. The first reply was a direct flame and rant from the warrior classleader (which not surprisingly enough ended up being a "warriors have it worse STFU" rant). And the second reply was a rant from another warrior. I have many friends in this guild and see this "No pets" BS as just that, BS that only weakens my team. It is depriving us of damage output and "speedbumps."
Having officers tell me I have good pet control and it's not about me, not even discussing the matter with me (so I'm not an officer or my classleader; it still directly affects me) and then *poof* basically overnight "No Pets" on every raid based on flawed information is my rant. It's a subject that will always bring up heated words and discussions. That's why I deliberately posted it in this forum. Rants can be intelligent, informative and constructive discussions.
I am at my wits' end on this topic (not my guild, not EQ, just this topic) and I respect the opinions of many beastlords that take the time to be involved in this game-wide community/forums. If you want to make "Furball sux0rz, Leezard r0x0rz" posts please do so in some other thread.
Ghoat reagarding the possible # of attacks per round... players can fire off a proc for every hit per round AFAIK. So a monk can do 6 normal hits, 6 procs and 1 special kick correct?
AFAIK, yes you are correct - I miscounted procs ;) I dont think you can fire two procs (assuming have 2) from the same weapon the same swing, but a single proc could fire on each swing. I think you are correct in having a max possible (damned unlikely of course) of 13 for the monk - which all have some push factor ;)
I really appreciate everone's input on this topic, as the same discussion has been occuring in my guild recently. What I have noticed is that other pet classes are generally fire and forget, as someone mentioned. I, as a beastlord, try to use my pet to position the mob as I desire, normally putting my pet right under the feet of the MA, pushing againt the wall of people trying to hit the mob from behind.
Fortunatly, I am in a guild of intelligent people, and they are always open to discussion about issues (and have not asked me to put my warder away).
I raid little, so I don't have much input either way. But am I to assume that since our pets are to blame for all the mob pushing, there was never a mob placement issue before Luclin? In the original game, did mobs always attack the main tank as scheduled and line their ass up perfectly for the rogues? Because if so, then obviously we are the problem. :roll:
the next step after trying to squash the rumours and urban legends about pets was to get my fellow guild beastlords to practice good pet managment. we jumped from just me to 6 active bsts in a very short time, and due to this i guess it was assumed by many people that that was now suddenly the reason for bad push particularly. one thing i did was posted some hotkeys for my fellow guildie bsts to position pets faster and better. (the easiest is having an assist hotkey that backs the pet off, then /assists mt, then has pet attack and having a good long delay so your pet has time to run to you, get in new position, and reatact all with one press of a hotkey, and like someone said most importanly you dont have to have your pet attacking, there's often times i assist and if mob is heading to a wall i just back myself and pet off and go sit where the mob should be positioned in silent protest). ill admit that some of my fellow bsts were pretty lazy at times with pet managment, and as the unofficial class leader (and official guild asshole) i was on their asses for days every single time a bst pet was even almost out of position or not held etc. they got the picture and now all we get is compliments on our vast amount of help in keeping mobs in position as we bsts in my guild alone are responsible for 12 sources of push, and are now very on the ball. i also let them know that if they feel like being lazy do what i do, keep pet supsended until you feel more like babysitting, you dont always have to have pet out, but if you do you better be ready to control it with an iron muzzle.
now people are kinda realizing the pet problem isnt with the beastlords of my guild, but with the mages and necros (who've also had a recent jump in numbers). you often now see bst pets in the right position and all mage and necro pets bunched up blindly pushing a mob like mad towards certain doom (for the mt that gets summoned at least as happened in solro into lava a few days ago lol).
we're lucky as pet classes, since we're usually meleeing its very easy to keep our pets repositioned. imo most guilds should make their bst team officially in charge of mob push, as for instance in my guild we have 12 sources of push that with a little bit of thought turns into being able to balance push with just us often enough. we've gone from scapegoat to having specific duties to counter push and do the right thing, its kinda cool.
i wish people luck in their battles against pet ignorance, its not an easy fight, but it is possible to turn ignorant accusations into positive raid strategy once people are accepting of facts.
oh and for the person that was asking about push. push in relation to pet is normally caused by melee attacks. most people agree push is caused by quantity of attacks as opposed to magnitude. meaning if person A hits a mob 5 times for a total of 50 damage they're push more then person B that hits a mob once for 80 damage. what this means is that yes pets will push slightly more then some other PCs, though pls dont confuse this with them having heightened push, if a pet or pc hit a mob once for 10 damage they'll cause the same amount of push. the sucky thing is that you cant turn pet bash off (that i know of), or kick and pets usually have a very low attack delay. this means pets are hitting fast, and thats causing a good amount of push. BUT pets pushing is no way so much more then any other player that its significant. as someone else said i duoed from level 30ish to 58 almost exclusively which meant i was fighting directly opposite from my pet and never noticed any push significantly more then i was but for the times i was using spirit of storm, which is designed to have a knockback effect, which of course also pushes a mob. many stuns will have a degree of knockback as well, including some wizard dds (was told all magic based dds have a degree of knockback for spell interupts). my best evidence for this is on a pvp server my wizards level 12 magic dd was best for interupting gate as it was fast casting and had slight knockback for interupt. there's also one AA i know of that has drastic push, and thats the monk dragon fisting thingy, but they dont normally ever use it unless they intentionally need to. im pretty sure jsut about anything you do to a mob, including reg dds, has some aspect of push, its just most of it is so insignificant that it doesnt matter. just like our pets produce alot of attacks with very low delay, but in a raid of a bunch of melees meleeing its rediculous to think our pets alone are suddenly the ones creating push problems, just like blaming a single rogue or ranger would be equally short sighted.
sorry to say it, and sorry for the fellow guildie that doesnt see it i guess, but if a guild isnt allowing pets most of the time they're not only imo selling you as a class and person short, but missing many very usefull aspects a beastlord can bring to raid situations. and yes of course if the raidleader says no pets allowed then you shouldnt have a pet, but as you've stated this in no way makes that raid leader suddenly knowledgable in the ways of pets. if he cant hear out his fellow guildies and at the least potential strategies pets can bring (if not mostly unsung and behind the scenes) then he doesnt seem like a very good leader to me. i dunno how many bst you have in your guild, but if you go to this raid leader or the guild as whole with the proper information and with the idea that a beast can do more then not push negatively, but they can use themself and pet to be a huge source of the right kinda of push. most raid leaders that havent realized this would jump at the chance to be able to put a group of people together with the sole purpose of being counter pushers. this of course would require you and your fellow guildmates that are beastlords to take the responsibility and act properly when it came to push. i would think that if you can prove to this raid leader the beastlords of the guild can and will control their pets and turn that push into a positive thing you guys' problem would then turn to him requiring you to use pets. ;)
long story short if anyone out there is regularly not being allowed to use a pet when you've proven you can and will control it and are willing to be personally responsible as that pets owner if it does anything bad then yes you're being sold short, you're getting jipped, you're being forced to not play your class to its fullest and not only should you be pissed, but you should be offended.
I'm curious which mobs you were having trouble on, that they could blame pets for?.
It's funny, in empire it's the complete opposite. For example when we get to Vallon in PoTime it's "everyone better have a pet up, including you slacker SK's". :D
We need a sticky listing the facts about pet push, so people can link it to their guilds MB when this crap comes up. :P
Quote from: KanneI guess the point was Jareen was that my pet can't even do have the things he's blamed for. And yes, I have been told my pet broke mezz when he wasn't even engaged on that particular mob. Warders are easy scapegoats, they can't even defend themselves.
Just AE bert.
As I stated before pet push is the BL's responsibility and easily controlable.
If I'm reading things correctly though I'm seeing that some here are saying that when and if to bring out a pet is also the BL's responsibility and this I have to disagree with some what.
If the BL has the pet hold AA then I agree that it should be his resonsibility, however there are circumstances where BL's without pet hold AA should not be allowed to have pets out. In any situation where you have mobs that AE then pets that are not on hold can wipe the party.
Granted a BL that is on the ball can controll his pet by spamming /pet back off constantly but in a raid situation this spam is annoying to say the least and one small lapse can easily spell wipe out. For this reason and this reason alone my guild will not allow unheld pets in AE situations and I fully agree.
I also agree that the decission to not bring out a pet should always be the BL's. When we picked up a new 65 BL in the guild he was always used to not having pet out in raids so even though he had pet hold he never brought out pet (and noone said anything for his decission not to). After parsing several raids he saw the value of pets DPS (blew both of us away cause of others things we do during a raid) and now he always brings pet.
The guild can set policy and guidelines about pet use but IMHO they go too far if they tell you specific's during a raid. After all your not a bot, right? :wink:
http://pub149.ezboard.com/feqdruids24038frm1.showMessage?topicID=5611.topic .... A thread about "Pushing"
My favorite quote from the above thread at EQDruids...
QuoteThe biggest culprit we found was beastlord pet procs, we blamed everyone including the dog, it turned out to be the cat
I feel naked without my Warder by my side, but what am i going to do? I'm currently in the process of joining a higher-end guild. They are great poeple and I have a few friends in the guild already, but it does piss me off, when we start a raid and the order goes out that there is to be no pets at all. Not having my Warder is like cutting my right arm off.
Please post a list of Raid hotkeys we can use to control and reposition our Warders.
Why oh why are there so many retarded people around. If you have pet hold and keep an eye out on your pet then that should be all that matters minus a few situations like in POW. I am in an org that is currently at quarm and only one encounter have I been told to shelve the pet and that was the carpin cycle in COD. You are expected to have pet hold if dealing with any ae encounters and you are expected to handle your pets no matter what. No pet=lost dps and sometimes that extra dps from a pet might make the diff between killing a god or wiping to a god. Anyone that screams no pets minus a few areas/encounters in the game is ignorant of thier uses and contributions. Saying no pets cause of a few people that don't pay attention is the way to cripple your raid or just make yourself look like an ignorant ass. Find out who is messing up and talk to the owners instead of a blanket statement involving the ones that control the pets as well.
Telling a BL that no pets are allowed on ANY raid is like telling a warrior that he may use 1 1HS weapon in the primary, but his secondary has to be empty. Your only hurting your guild by making a blanket statement no pets allowed on ANY raid. The best thing IMHO to do is if your a raid leader, group leader, is to find the culprits and ban their pets accordingly.
i guess i just assumed we're all talking about pets in raid situations and pet hold was a prerequisite just to have this conversation, as most people would agree in most situations not having pet hold just isnt worth it for the "what if" factor alone"
the only argument ive heard that holds any water for people being allowed pets without the ability to hold them is that now you can filter out what pets say to a dummy window, so if melee and casters dont want to see pet spam they dont have to. i have as of yet found a way to do away with other peoples pet spam and keep my own though, so the one time i heard this argument it was quickly squashed because when you're spamming a raid with pet back off imo the last people you want to spam are other pet owners as they're getting enough of it already, know that you prolly shouldnt have a pet up and are being reckless and are often specifically annoying your fellow pet owners, which isnt smart to alienate the people "on your side".
and like someone mentioned, the only fight i also recall being told not to use pet (along with everyone else) was carprin cycle. the funny thing though is my pet has pretty high survivability. our last TZ fight my pet was meleeing constantly and lasted until 30ish percent before i mended, and then didnt die until low 20% when pretty much all other melees were dead and TZ turned and my pet was tanking.
I would like to thank everyone for their different viewpoints and situations. Even when someone else talks about the same subject their slightly different POV can educate people. I've learned a few things that I either had forgotten or didn't truly understand well enough to explain to fellow players.
Whiptail: My hotkey with "/pet back off" and then "/pet attack" has to be the most used pet control key I have (aside from using /pet hold after every mob dies) and I can't say how much of a value and integral tool it is for pet control/placement. I very rarely use "/pet guard here" anymore simply because of how the pet walks back to it's spot... the faster your pet is moving the faster you can get into a better position, cutting down on wasted DPS time.
I hope all the "no pets allowed!" guilds fail on every mob at 1%. They deserve it.
/spiteful off
:)
That raid leader doesnt come off as a very good one to me. Anytime the only resort is to make blanket statements like "no pets period" it means that person really does not have a full grasp of the situation. I have been with my guild sence we started raiding(we were a familiy/social guild foralong time). The only times we have had a 'no pets period' policy is on mobs who spawn things when players/pets die, which has been only the second boss on carpin cycle, and shie(pets shouldnt die in this one, its mainly from the mages/necs sit behind the wall and dont watch). Heck the only other time we have even kicked ones with out pet hold was farming HoT. We generaly alow all pets for anything else(NToV included).
Expecting every player to understand and manage every aspect of thier class makes for a stronger guild that relys on skill over numbers. I have no respect for people who(like the plauge that is open raiding on aro) use 100+ on a regular baisis to kill mobs that are doable with 50ish without problem.
Strigori your in a much differint class of raiding then the guilds that are denying pets on raids. I recall when i first did HoT the raid leader at that time and in a totally differint guild called for 'no pets'. I wasnt a beast then, in fact, beasts didnt exist then. Today I know a lot of the guilds doing HoT are freely admitting pets, imo this is largly due to the knowledge of what discipline level is necessary for those raids.
Sometimes when were doing Vex Thal were permitted to spawn our pets for that raid. Why? The knowledge of how to do that raid is well known and rehersed amoung the entire guild. Specific dedicated attention to every last detail isnt necessary, thus pets are sometimes allowed.
The guilds in the elemental planes right now, especially those who havent been there very long are doing mobs of a much more focus specific design. Blazzak the Omnifiend in fire, for example, hits for around 3k has an ae for 1500ish i believe. That stuff hurts like hell, 1 player or 1 pet pushes the mob and the MA out of healing range of the clerics and the whole raid wipes. Would you risk it?
What of some of the other beastlords in the elementals? Your raid leaders permit pets on every raid or not? (please assume when answering every pet class player has /pet hold)
I dont think we are in a different class...we have dropped bertox..only thing keeping us from elementals is finding acouple mobs up when our raiding hours are. And here we go...Pet OR player....the level of discipline should remain the same regardless of what your raiding. Allowing it to be sloppy on some raids and not on others is a bad precidence. This attitude that becuase we are not a guild that has been around sence almost server creation that we are somehow lesser. We have advanced at a very fast pace. The only guilds ahead of us on aro are ones that have been a raiding guild for close 2 years before we existed. There are multiple ways to do most fights. Because your raid leader does not trust your people to use pets should not translate to no one anywhere should not use pets
Assuming you have pet hold I can't think of much you wouldn't use a warder on. Personally I like to keep mine suspended while the pulls are happening and then pop it out once we engage the mob.
Other things you can do, keep your pet on follow all of the time. Helps position quicker. I have hotkeys for repositioning and wouldn't you know they are the same keys I use to control my pet during Enrage.
hotkey:
/attack off
/pause 2,/pet back off
/pet hold
Now, if the warder is on follow, this key allows you to cease all offense and move to a different spot. Nothing bothers me more than to still be swinging while I am trying to position and catch a riposte or enrage smack.
Things to consider are:
The encounter - is the mob a walled mob, or a push to corner type of mob, or an open area open (open area is the hardest to control all melee in, let alone pets..balancing takes lots of practice)
Angles - is there a spot to get your pet to hit from behind without getting in the way of the rogues?
When to engage the pet - Do Ya /pet attack immediatly when engage is called or do you need to move into a position before hand while the tanks are messing with agro. On one mob we typically call pets engage so that we can get the mob into position..however, you need to move up into your own position before engaging or else you agro another mob when bad pathing occurs.
Quote/attack off
/pause 2,/pet back off
/pet hold
Thoroughly dumb question here, but why the /pet back off line?
QuoteWhat of some of the other beastlords in the elementals? Your raid leaders permit pets on every raid or not? (please assume when answering every pet class player has /pet hold)
As long as you have pet hold you are pretty much allowed to have a pet up at every encounter including water. If you have a pet up in water you better pay attention to push or the mobs will warp into the walls though. If it becomes any kind of problem to keep the pet alive then Protection of Calliav will become your best friend.
QuoteThoroughly dumb question here, but why the /pet back off line?
I may be mistaken here but I believe that /pet hold does not wipe the hatelist of the warder but /pet back off will. I use /pet hold then /pet back off. The /pet hold being done first ensures that the pet will not keep ping ponging on the mob if he has agroe for any reason then the /pet back off to wipe his hate list. If I am wrong about this then no big deal as I will continue using that hotkey anyway.
Quote from: TerjynPovarQuote/attack off
/pause 2,/pet back off
/pet hold
Thoroughly dumb question here, but why the /pet back off line?
lack of coffee does that to me! ;)
you gotta put the back off first because if you issue any commands after the pet hold it forgets the hold command was issued. So if you get an AE while moving your warder will engage.
I guess overall you don't need the backoff command but its still nice to make sure Homey is not engaged with a lik extra spam ;)
I have had just the opposite happen to me actually and thats why I changed it to how it is now /shrug guess I just had some strange crap happen to me.
Most bsts I know have their Hold key macroed as:
/pet hold
/pet back off
The reason is that Hold just stops the pet from doing anything, it doesn't affect its hate list at all. Back off wipes the pet's hate list, so next time you tell him to attack, he atacks who you want and not that other creature who has built up a ton of hate on him.
Puting back off first is will also usually work because of the speed at which these commands are issued after each other, but it logically makes more sense to put it last. This is because you want to wipe his hate list last - it will give him more of a chance to get out of the fray. If you do it first, there is a theoretical possibility that the pet could be hit after the back off command, thus leaving him with a small amount of hate.
In reality, since we are talking about such small possibilities, it works either way.
QuoteIf you do it first, there is a theoretical possibility that the pet could be hit after the back off command, thus leaving him with a small amount of hate.
Well I have seen it happen with /pet hold last but like I said maybe it was just some strange circumstances but it caused me to change how I had it setup.
What I meant by "it", was /pet back off, not /pet hold. Putting back off last slightly lessens the chance of the pet having hate after the commands (since by definition, you have wiped his hate list later). Also, I suppose there's the very unlikely possibility that the pet could be hit and strike back in the sliver of time between commands if you issue /pet back off first.
Your responses if anything have gotten me even more confused.
When I use /pet hold, fluffy stops attacking and backs off. How could it do that if it still had hate?
Are you telling me if I just do /pet hold and then issue any other command, fluffy will charge back into the fight because it still has hate built up?
Fluffy does still have hate, but he won't do anything because you've told him to hold. In fact, if something continues to hit him while he's on hold, he will continue to build hate for that thing.
Here's what could happen if you don't do /pet back off:
Mob_01 is doting/bashing/smacking the crap out of fluffy. You do /pet hold - pet comes to you. An add comes - you then target the add and do /pet attack. Fluffy will attack Mob_01 because he still hates that guy more than the one you told him to attack.
Ahh, interesting. And now I see why this has almost never come up...I primarily use pet hold for repositioning and then send him back in on the same mob as before...in which case it doesn't matter.
Thanks for the answer. :)
Yeah, to sum it up.
/pet hold makes pet not attack and that is all.
/pet back off clears pets agro until it is hit again (you need to /pet back off again if pet gets hit after /pet back off)
These are my macros
/pet hold
/pet follow me
/pet hold
/pet guard here
/pet back off
/pet attack
With this setup, it allows me to clear pets agro before I send her to attack something, assuring that she has no residual agro from getting beat on or taking AE's while being held. When I send my pet, it goes to the target I intend it to go to. Hope that helps. :wink:
hmm guess I am confused now. I could of sworn that any command given to a pet after /pet hold would cause the hold to be removed. If thats not the case then cool, makes my life easier hehe :)
You just use /hold & then go afk, what diff does it make? ;)
Yeah sarjent, as far as I know, only /pet attack breaks the hold, although I don't think I've tried all of them.
Quote from: TerjynPovarYour responses if anything have gotten me even more confused.
When I use /pet hold, fluffy stops attacking and backs off. How could it do that if it still had hate?
Are you telling me if I just do /pet hold and then issue any other command, fluffy will charge back into the fight because it still has hate built up?
Not after just any command.. But imagine having adds who pick on you and your warder, naturally, goes after them. Using only /pet hold will have him charge that same mob that attacked you (who should be under controll of add-tanks now) once you tell it to attack again, instead of your own target.
As far as Elemental raids, I -always- use my pet, even in water. If you pay attention and watch, your pet can be extremely beneficial with pushes in water, especially with how screwy some things are. NPCs have that advantage of never being out of range when they don't want to be, and seeing mobs when we really can't. ;)
And, as mentioned up a bit, in the case of Blazzax.. Push isn't that big of a deal. Unless your clerics have a CHeal range of 300 with an extra extension in there somewhere, there is NO way they'll be avoiding his AE, Nova Inferno, since it's PBAE with a 300 range. And really, I don't think there's any added "risk" of pushing because of pets.. No more risk than some rogue, ranger, Shadowknight or any other player who isn't paying attention to what side they're swinging from.
In fact, in fights like Blazzax, Grihlion, Babnoxis and so forth.. Pets are, in some ways, better than player Melees.. They're alot easier to keep going, at least, with Protection of Calliav (Which I have come to find is just about the most useful spell ever put in. :D I was a bit skeptical at first, but it's proven so immensely useful.. Saves me ALOT of time from healing and curing my pet from AEs.)
But, back to the main topic.. I personally feel it is an issue of pet ignorance, and I obviously agree with Ghoat and others.. Pets should always be viable and usable in most any situation, regardless. If your pet classes are halfway knowledgeable and paying attention there should be no issues. None at all. The key is paying attention.
And I have found that mages and necros often times will just throw their pet at the mob and see what happens, but granted it is alot easier for us to position, since we're up in melee range, anyways, so that's an understandable sort of thing.
People that know enough about pets, know that it isn't all their fault.. And in my opinion, warriors should be thankful for the aggro our pets help them build. I won't go into depth on my opinions with that, since it's off topic.. But even now, in Elementals and against Sol Ro minis and whatnot, my pet is STILL the first one summoned if I mob gates or moves out of MT range by much.
And once again, responding to an earlier post.. I always engage my pet as soon as possible.. Every proc of rellic is 50 hate direct, stun hate and 155 DD hate, all of which the MT can take advantage of without any chance at all of losing aggro to the pet as long as they're in range. What's more, if my understanding of Taunt is correct, the pet taunting will boost their aggro to the MT's, and then further subsequent procs and damage will only further add to that, which once again can lead to being a sizable boon for the MT keeping aggro.
In my opinion, it's like archery.. The MT engages and the rangers start bowing.. Why not throw the pets in? They can't take aggro from the MT while he's in range, so do damage while you can.
5 beasts in my guild and we're time flagged, from day one POP till time we all have had pets on ever raid as long as pet hold was used as a control.
There has been no more push from our pets than any other class in the guild. In fact everyone is to blame for push including casters and here's why I say that.
Because in Fennin Ro's case to properly place that bad boy so he stays in one position requires all casters to face a certain direction to cast to move him based on someone calling off which direction to cast. This directs where Fro is going to position himself, this is done strictly with spells(note not pushing spells but regular spells direct damage spells that cause him to move). Face away from Fro you pull him to you when you cast, face toward him you push him away. The dynamics of push can be equally attributed to casters causing minute push as an individual and on a larger scale such as a group of wizards or druids, you get enough casters facing a mob and tossing their largest spells and you'll see a mob jump and leap at times. I don't see how blaming pets is anymore applicable than blaming a wizard team who's intent on tossing everything they got on some mob.
Of course you can get into equilibrium and push and why my guild has a "Be The Sperm" policy(don't ask I'm sure you can figure it out). Where we all are to surround certain mobs, but suffice it to say, if one area thins out a bit the mobs going in that direction.
Push is a fact of life that's why they made walls in everquest, in most cases and I'll say 9.5 out of 10 times you will have a mob walled with a shrunk MA with 40 melee trying to keep it pinned in some corner. So saying you can't have pets up is ludicrous.
Tests have been done as well, case in point: 2nd Giant in the Agnarr script, requires that a single MA fights the giant while the rest of the raid does range damage. In this case we place 4-5 beastlord pets behind the mob to offset push. Everytime we have done this event our pets have had the mob pushed over them, only thing attributable to that sort of push is the MA(highly unlikely a single person can push over 4-5 pets), or the ton of spell and range damage is overwhelmingly pushy? In theory though if what your guild is saying is right, the pets should have pushed the mob over the MA to the casters and totally fucked up the fight :) Sorry I'll repeat, pets don't push anymore than anyone else and in fact I think their push is negligable in the grander scheme of push theories.
Quote
or the ton of spell and range damage is overwhelmingly pushy?
It's the spell damage. A surprising number of spells cause small amounts of knockback. Scorpion Venom is one of them, it causes about 1/10 the pushback of a Cleric stun. 10 bsts could push a mob all over just chaining Scorp.
Look at Lucy, and check the raw spell data for the "pushback" field.
How many of you read my posts on this thread as direct flames/attacks against my guild and it's raid leaders? I'm truly curious because my intent was a rant about the difficulty of educating "pet ignorant" players and how I have found it nearly impossible to do so.
Well id like to say...we want magical buttons that make our pets do all the stupid crap we want like:
Change colors
Get smaller
Get bigger
Talk
have their own name
Have their own surname
etc.
But having their knockback turned off,should be manditory
QuoteBut having their knockback turned off,should be manditory
What knockback?
Quote from: Xilbeast
3) BL pets must have knockback effect eliminated during raids at all times. This includes bash effects as well. Using a 2hb (can be weapon summomed by mages) is a must even at dps cost.
Quote from: Xilbeast
This isnt ignorance in the least Sil, we have officers in the guild who are pet classes and they are the ones who created the original rules then changed them.
:roll:
Neight
pet push and knockback... not this dead horse again...
will have to dig up some quotes that people posted on my old guild board, one was about how you could put ONE bst pet across from 15 meleers and the pet would still out push them lol
Its simple really, if they say no pets on any raid then its not your pet they dont trust, its you..and as far as im concerned no pet = paragon bitch = dream on,i aint casting it EVER.
Had this 'discussion' with my guild not long ago and it turned out ok but most of the detrimental comments were from people who had never played a pet class or..my favorite comment.. "I grouped with a pet class 3-4 years ago and it caused problems,I refuse to grp with then since".
Only raid so far that I can see no pets rule being valid for is the mob in caprin cycle that spawns a add on each kill.