Mage pets vs Beastlord warder

[Tiggre]

Beastlord pets should mitigate better then any other pet as we are melee, not casters.  Necro's and mages have other benefits/strengths.  There's no reason to consider the beastlord pet as substandard compared to the mage.  Our pet needs to be very effective mitigating, avoiding and doing more damage then the other pets as they are pretty much a good precentage of our overall effectivenes.  You can take away the pets from the mage and the necro and it won't impact them significantly, but take away the pet from the beast and you have impacted their dps in a major way.

[CillianFV]

I have no problem with mage pets having better mitigation than ours.  On most standard raids your pet should not be tanking so this change should only affect soloing and some group situations.  When soloing, a mage needs the better mitigation as their pet will be tanking the mob unslowed.  Beastlords can slow and Necros can slow undead if they need to.  Necros can also use various kiting methods.  This will give mage pets the little boost that they need but I can't see this change affecting overall balance a hell of lot.

Back to the main issue, is it only pet hastes that are broken or all haste spells on pets?  I mean, could I use Celerity on my warder to try and get some of his DPS back?

[Tiggre]

Mages should never outtank our pets and hence should never mitigate bettter then us, period.  They are a pure dps class and that is what their pets do better then ours with their innate procs, damage shields, etc.

Our pets should always outtank their pets in any given situation irrespective of their inability to slow a mob.  Mages have a superior aspects to their pets:  faster cast, less mana, specialization, endless duration buffs (innate procs, damage shields, root, etc), as well as gear that they can give to their pets that acts like buffs that never wear off.  Their belt can provide 500hp, their swords and fists another 100+.  That's 600hp compared to ours.  Ours wears off and we have to keep rebuffing but theirs stays till their pet dies.

There's more then enough to their arsenal besides just their pets.  They get massive nukes with tremendous mana regen via forms of their elementals, they get efficiency gear that they can summon to help make their spells be more impacting, etc.

Enough is enough.  We are the defensive melee hybrid and our pets should reflect that.

[Masklinn]

Mages should never outtank our pets and hence should never mitigate bettter then us, period.  They are a pure dps class and that is what their pets do better then ours with their innate procs, damage shields, etc.

You are joking right?. tell me you are joking...

or is it that you know NOTHING at all about mages?

Well first of all let's summarize what mages are:

Mages are the masters of the elements and summonings.
That does NOT mean they are the masters of the nukes, wizards are above and druids are on par with their nuking power
That however DOES mean they are supposed to be the master pet class, and that is the reason why they have 4 different pets while you have 1 and necromancers have 2.

Magicians have given every single ability (but nuking, but then again they don't nuke that well) for their pets: they can't evade damages (through roots, snares or speed enhancing buffs for them), they can't mitigate damage on themselves at all (no self heals, runes, no slows) and can only heal their pets, they have no way to lower their agro but doing nothing and have no chance in surviving a beating EVER (while i've seen BLs rampage tanking EP bosses - except Magmaton or Krziik - w/o that much trouble with good healers behind), they have no buffs for others and their self only buffs clearly suck.
Mages have no "special" ability but:
1- their pets
2- their very limited capacity to summon toys (rods, focus items, pet items)

Mage have been, until the release of the BL class, the uncontested #1 pet master, and that's where they should still be, because their pets is all the power they have, the fact that mage = pet is well summarized by the fact that their very EPIC summons a pet

Now about Mage pets (PoP only, won't speak about epic pet here)
They can chose between 4 very different pets and have to do it well
a- Air pet, average melee dps, average hps, average mitigation, procs a low level magic based DD+stun, warrior
b- Water pet, average high to high melee dps, low hps, low mitigation, procs a low level Cold DD, ROGUE Pet, can Backstab from behind
c- Fire pet, low melee dps, low hps, low mitigation, innate Damage Shield, WIZARD pet, will cast wizard spells, very low mana pool
d- Earth pet, average melee dps, average high hps, average mitigation, procs a low level DD+root, warrior


You don't have many innate procs, only 1/pet, you have to choose your pet very carefully because they all have weaknesses, pets have lost their "immunities" (Fire used to be immune to Fire spells, Water to Cold, Earth to Disease and Air to Poison) so you can't factor that in anymore, and Earth root sucks (highly resisted and will often cause pet to get agro and get killed if it lands)

Their only pet buff beastlord doesn't have is DS, and said DS has an amazing 7.5mn duration

Our pets should always outtank their pets in any given situation irrespective of their inability to slow a mob.

As i said before, this is just wrong, Mages pets are situationnal, warders should be able to outtank some of their pets, but should be on par with Air pet tanking wise, and under Earth one

Mages have a superior aspects to their pets:  faster cast, less mana, specialization, endless duration buffs (innate procs, damage shields, root, etc),

Rathe's Son
Summon Pet: SumEarthR15
Mana: 400
Skill: Conjuration
Casting Time: 10

Spirit of Sorsha
Summon Warder: BLpet51
Mana: 400
Skill: Conjuration
Casting Time: 10

Same mana cost, same casting time, the only difference will be the Specialization, but then again do you often cast a pet? let's say once per hour, specialization@200 is a 10% mana save, this means that they gain an amazing 40 mana/hour from specialization on pet.
If you have problems with calculus, that's 0.07 mana/tick. Wow, that's a damn high edge over Beastlords

Buffs:
1- Mages get only 1 innate proc/pet, if they want to change the proc they have to... summon a new pet
2- Spirit of Flame duration 48mn, Spirit of Rellic duration 48mn, Spirit of Frost duration 48mn, Arag's Celerity duration 48mn.
Flameshield of Ro (DS) duration 7.5mn, Burnout V (haste) duration 25mn
Your buffs last twice as long as mage's haste, more than 5 times longer than their DS, and your proc buffs give the same damaging capacities as innate mages procs... except than mages only get DDs on magic and cold...

You were wrong

as well as gear that they can give to their pets that acts like buffs that never wear off.  Their belt can provide 500hp, their swords and fists another 100+.  That's 600hp compared to ours.  Ours wears off and we have to keep rebuffing but theirs stays till their pet dies.

Granted the cost of Talisman of Kragg, Mages only get an edge over beastlords if their pet lasts longer than 1h.
Yeah guess you really have to cry
and having to recast a buff every hour must be so tiring

There's more then enough to their arsenal besides just their pets.  They get massive nukes with tremendous mana regen via forms of their elementals

As already said, their nukes are only on par with Druids (who also have utility spells, heals and dots), and highly resisted, and your "mana regen" comment must be a joke: they have only ONE elemental form with mana regen (out of the 4 they can get), and it gives them a whopping 4 mana per tick... wow...
well... base Paragon of Spirit is already 3.2 mana/tick, gets up to 4.26 with Spell Casting Reinforcement 3, and if i remember well Extended Duration items affect it too... Funny, BLs get more mana regen from their AAs than mages... and BL's is group buff on top of that

they get efficiency gear that they can summon to help make their spells be more impacting, etc.

Irrevelant here, what they can summon can usually be bought in bazaar and is the lowest possible level of spell focuses, not to mention the fundamentally crappy stats of their summoned items meaning what you want is to get rid of them as soon as possible

Enough is enough.  We are the defensive melee hybrid and our pets should reflect that.

You are a pet class, and mages should OutPet you when using a pet designed for the comparison, Earth pet should outtank any BL pet and Water pet should OutDPS BL pet whatever the situation.

[Rumtum Tugger]

I figure mage and beast are even.  Their pet of same level owns ours, but in a bare knuckle brawl, we would beat their silly dress wearing AC (no offense meant about the dress comment).  I think mages have been shafted a little, and would like to see them fixed.  I like grouping with mages and hope they get back their title of pet caster supreme.

[feralize]

Totally agree with you there Maskinn, Tiggre's post was so stupid it's almost embarrassing being a beastlord with opinions like that being available for public consumption  :cry:

[Scalewulf]

Masklinn,

Really, there is a LOT of misinformation and non-truths in your post.

Extended enhancement items do not effect paragon.  

Could you please elaborate on the "low-level" DD procs your pets get?
You're throwing around numbers until then and all of the sudden you go with very generic terms.  

Your earth pet getting agro and getting killed?  Getting agro from whom? Not a PC, it's impossible.  I've yet to see any other pet, Mage or Necro steal agro from my pet (if you're referring to getting agro from other pets).  

When you factor in mana regen, you'll need to also talk about mod-rods.  

The DS you can put on your pet should be factored into your pets overall DPS somehow.  

And what about pet toys?  Duel wielding proc'ing swords (what is it 150 cold DD ?)  The stat belt and haste mask...

I won't sit here and say Mages don't need some tweaking, but come with factual stuff, not generalizations and underestimations of a Mage's power.  

**If you want to be taken seriously...

:wink:

[Wiskie]

Masklinn,

Really, there is a LOT of misinformation and non-truths in your post.

Extended enhancement items do not effect paragon.  

Could you please elaborate on the "low-level" DD procs your pets get?
You're throwing around numbers until then and all of the sudden you go with very generic terms.  

Your earth pet getting agro and getting killed?  Getting agro from whom? Not a PC, it's impossible.  I've yet to see any other pet, Mage or Necro steal agro from my pet (if you're referring to getting agro from other pets).  

When you factor in mana regen, you'll need to also talk about mod-rods.  

The DS you can put on your pet should be factored into your pets overall DPS somehow.  

And what about pet toys?  Duel wielding proc'ing swords (what is it 150 cold DD ?)  The stat belt and haste mask...

I won't sit here and say Mages don't need some tweaking, but come with factual stuff, not generalizations and underestimations of a Mage's power.  

**If you want to be taken seriously...

:wink:

Ok, I will step into this discussion with a bit of trepedation. Let me first say I play both a mage and a beastlord and love both classes. I also group alot with a couple of friends that have beastlords when I am playing my mage so I do understand some of the differences. I am really just trying to answer a few questions here, not get into a debate about which class is better and which needs nerfed or fixed.

First, the low-level DD mentioned does not really exist. The air pet casts a Stun DD (no damage that I have ever seen but I don't duel), the 65 Earth pet I don't yet have due to availability of runes, but if he is like the other earth pets, he casts a Root DD that also causes no damage. The Fire pet is a Wizard and has access to wizard spells but a mana pool that only allows him to cast a few spells before going OOM. Also, there is no way to control what spells he casts, so he might cast root 5 times in a row, or Ice comet on a fleeing mob.

As for earth pet getting agro, this is very simple. If a mob is rooted he will attack the closest Pet to him, regardless of hate list. If a PC is in there, he will get the agro, but otherwise the closest pet will get it. If a necro is in your group, kiss the necro pet goodby, they have a smaller melee range, so are always closer. For the BST vs. Mage pet it will depend on positioning because both have the same melee range. Also, just as an FYI, my air pet takes agro from a BST pet about half the time. Stun is a huge agro generator, and BST's can give a proc that will reduce the agro generated by their pets.

As for mana regen, Mages are screwed plain and simple. Adding Mod rods into mana regen really isn't that big a deal. You can only use them once every 5 min. They have 3 charges, and take a bit more than the mana you get from one of those charges to summon. For the most part I use my mod rods are emergancy mana, meaning I am running low and really need that last nuke, or pet heal.

Including DS into pet DPS is a bit difficult as this really depends on how much the mob you are fighting hits your pet. A mob that quads for low damage with h2h weapons is going to take alot more damage than one that does massive damage from a slow strike like a 2hs. Also bash and kick will cause more damage on mobs that cause it. That said, DS does alot of damage to mobs, at 65 my DS is doing 45 points of damage every time my pet gets hit.

Pet toys are great, Mages get the first ones very early in their career (around level 8) and are used throughout. The 61+ toys are awesome additions to the pets abilities, and they each do 150 DD proc when they go off. We can also decide what type of DD to do between fire, magic, and cold. All BST's should ask for the fire one (the fist). The belt adds HP to the pets, and the mask will add haste.

The Mage class is a very powerful class and there is alot of misunderstanding about what it is out there. We are Nukers on par with Druids, (only have magic and fire based nukes that are the most resisted in the game). We can Debuff a bit with Malo line, we can summon some nice items for others, and we are not nearly so dependant on gear as some classes. We have very nice pets that are better than any others excpet the bst pet.

On the downside the mage class needs some work. Our only defense is our pet and gate, we can't root, snare, sow, charm or mez except in very limited conditions. We have very poor mana regen compared to other casters, and our pets are getting weeker and weeker compared to new mobs.

[TerjynPovar]

BSTs do not get a proc to lower pet agro.

Magician Air pets can take Agro from a BST pet who's been very unlucky, but not otherwise.

Including DPS into "pet DPS" is difficult, but barring kiting groups somebody is getting hit.

You are nukers second only to Wizards.  On Par with druids is seriously downplaying your nukes.

You can't root snare SoW charm or mez.

BSTs can't root snare charm or mez ever.  SoW isn't really needed with Swift Journey 2.  BST pets are also getting weaker and weaker compared to new mobs.

And, just to add, a non-uber Magician will do about 3x the DPS as a beastlord like me...and while the gap closes it never shrinks to zero, or even really close to zero.

[Oneiromancer]

BSTs do not get a proc to lower pet agro.

Eh?  Spirit of Snow and Spirit of Flame both lower Hate by 50 points per prioc.  True, it's the pet causing Hate to be lowered, not the BST directly, but it's aggro reduction just the same.

And as Gronker recently reminded me on my guild's message board, BSTs can snare by getting the Hobble of Spirits AA...not the best, but it can get the job done if you really need it.

Game on,

The Oneiromancer

[Wiskie]

BSTs do not get a proc to lower pet agro.

Eh?  Spirit of Snow and Spirit of Flame both lower Hate by 50 points per prioc.  True, it's the pet causing Hate to be lowered, not the BST directly, but it's aggro reduction just the same.

And as Gronker recently reminded me on my guild's message board, BSTs can snare by getting the Hobble of Spirits AA...not the best, but it can get the job done if you really need it.

Game on,

The Oneiromancer

Thanks Oneiromancer, you beat me to it. :)

I wasn't trying to compare mage vs. bst when I made that post, just answering some of the misconseptions. I know bst's can't mez, charm, root, or snare. And as a casual player Run5 isn't really an option yet. I only have 23 AA points on my Mage at this point so SOW is a huge advantage when I can get it.

Oh I am about to get suspend minon AA so that should help with getting out of a bad situation. I think BST's can get that one as well, but not sure.

[Oneiromancer]

Oh I am about to get suspend minon AA so that should help with getting out of a bad situation. I think BST's can get that one as well, but not sure.

Yes, we can.  Another one of the many AAs that I can't wait until I hit 65 to start getting.  (Because I'm trying my hardest to be "good" and wait...level 62 now, almost there!  :D  )

Game on,

The Oneiromancer

[TerjynPovar]

Spirit of Snow and Spirit of Flame have an agro reduction of 50 points...which is still tremendously BELOW the amount of agro they generate from the proc.

If the proc from Snow would be 200, it is only 150 because of the reduction.  This is still enough to steal agro from a Magician pet.

This is one of those things that I seriously wish was better explained by a place like Lucy...people always come here thinking that somehow Snow and Flame are going to lower overall agro, which is patently false.

And Hobble of Spirits not only is too random to be much good (and he said Magicians don't get root.  If they don't get root, we don't get Snare) but on top of that it lowers BST DPS and survivability by a lot to use it.  Hobble is very *very* situational.

[Morganti]

lemme pop in with a few more facts real fast
the 60+ mage pets do damage with there innate cast spells

60+ air pet spell http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1020&source=Live

60+ earth pet spell http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3193&source=Live

60+ fire pet http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=893&source=Live

60+ water pet http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1021&source=Live

not alot of damage mind you, but its what they cast.

[Murkk Dakruul]

Is mages having better pets than us going to affect you in any way whatsoever?, No, it isn't. So stop the retarded class envy. That belongs on every board besides this one.