Mage pets vs Beastlord warder

[Darkov]

I wasn't aware that Magicians could heal their pets....

[The Kittenpeeler]

Mages are the masters of the elements and summonings.

I dunno, this just annoys me. It's like hte people who say "Bards are jack of all trades master of none" or some crap like that. i want to smack them, seriously, it's just some cliche crap pulled from Allakhazam's or from a forum oldtimer trying to make himself look neat.

Look, Mr. Mage... "Master of the Elements" isn't a role in a group or a raid. If you want to play with mud and a zippo, do it in Half Life or something. you're in this game to crank out DPS. Congratulations, you have a variety of pets to help you with this.

Now stop foaming and go play. I swear half the time I think people who rant about their class sucking are too busy ranting about their class sucking to actually go see if the class sucks.

[TerjynPovar]

Sorry for being one of the primary deflectors of the thread...I just get so tired of seeing Magicians or especially the people who "Play both a Magician and a Beastlord" who artificially inflate the BST power and artificially downplay what a Magician can do.

[Wiskie]

Sorry for being one of the primary deflectors of the thread...I just get so tired of seeing Magicians or especially the people who "Play both a Magician and a Beastlord" who artificially inflate the BST power and artificially downplay what a Magician can do.

Who else can talk about the difference between the two classes? (And just for the record, I was not trying to compare BST and Mage. Just explain some of the difficulties that mages face)

Thanks Morganti, didn't realize they actually could do damage. Never see any message and I never noticed any damage being done to the mobs.

Also sorry for hijacking your thread. Won't post in those one anymore.

[TerjynPovar]

Who else can talk about the difference between the two classes?

It seems like most people who say they've played both and are giving an honest comparison have played one class to 65 and Powerleveled the other one, so only have a superficial feel of what the second class is actually like to play.

Alternatively, they started the second class because they were extremely bitter about the first class they played.

In the first case, they don't really have the knowledge base to make a true comparison, in the second they are far too biased to make a true comparison.

[Wiskie]

Who else can talk about the difference between the two classes?

It seems like most people who say they've played both and are giving an honest comparison have played one class to 65 and Powerleveled the other one, so only have a superficial feel of what the second class is actually like to play.

Alternatively, they started the second class because they were extremely bitter about the first class they played.

In the first case, they don't really have the knowledge base to make a true comparison, in the second they are far too biased to make a true comparison.

Ok a bit of background to go with my statements then. :)

I started playing EQ about a month before Kunark came out and created my mage about (within a week) of Kunark coming out. Really liked the mage class, but I was frustrated with some of the bugs in the game at that point that made playing a mage very difficult.

I created a druid and played that class for a long time with some experimenting on other classes.

When Luclin came out I created a BST on the 2nd day (couldn't get into the servers the first day) and played him on and off with my druid.

About the time PoP came out, I started playing my mage again and have since reached level 65. My BST is level 53 and my druid is level 56. No powerleveling on any of these classes beyond some buffs from passing guild mates or other kind casters. Yes I leveled my BST from 36 to 45 during the time I could get KEI on him.

I mostly solo or single group. Very little raiding. I am a casual player and usually only get about 5-10 hours to play during the week with a few more on the weekend (when I usually do what raiding I can.)

We have 2 level 65 BST's in our guild that I group with alot with my mage. Add a 62 necro in there, and we hunt about once or twice a week. With my BST I hunt with a druid, shaman, sk, and cleric when I group, but solo alot.

I really didn't mean to suggest that BST's are overpowered or that mages are weak. I love the mage class and the BST class. They are by far my favorite ones in the game.

[TerjynPovar]

I wasn't casting accusations at you.  I was actually thinking of another person who used to make bald faced lies regarding the power of a Monk vs. that of a Beastlord on the old EQBeastlord forums.

[Masklinn]

Masklinn,

Really, there is a LOT of misinformation and non-truths in your post.

First of all my main is not a mage nor a BL but a necromancer, Tiggre's post just annoyed me so much is felt i had to post  :wink:

Extended enhancement items do not effect paragon.

Well then seems i was wrong and i appologize for that one
But the mana regen Bls get from AAs is still higher than the one Mages get

Could you please elaborate on the "low-level" DD procs your pets get?
You're throwing around numbers until then and all of the sudden you go with very generic terms.  

Sorry, i didn't have the numbers, they have been posted after my post
Well water pet gets a ~ 100ish cold DD (not 150 since it's 60 not 65), air ~70, earth ~65-70, i don't call that "huge" DDs but more like low ones, kinda like necro pet's lifetap hitting for 60ish (but note that only Earth's root has a resist adjustment, added to the level 60 of pets this means noticeable resists on mage pet's nukes)

Your earth pet getting agro and getting killed?  Getting agro from whom? Not a PC, it's impossible.  I've yet to see any other pet, Mage or Necro steal agro from my pet (if you're referring to getting agro from other pets).

Root makes mob target and kill the closest thing, i even doubt the PC/Pet thing gets factored it, Earth pet procs a root... not many thing else to say ;)

When you factor in mana regen, you'll need to also talk about mod-rods.

Well that's false, because then i'd also need to factor in SD
But i can do both
SD: 425 mana cost, 45mn (450 ticks), 9 mana/tick, 9 hps/tick
total: 3625 mana gain (avg 8.05 mana/tick) 4050 hps gain over the 45mn
Rod: 400 mana cost, 3 charges of 450 hps loss 360 mana gain, 5mn recast (15mn total duration)
total over 45mn (3 rods): 2040 mana gain (360 * 3 * 3 - 400 * 3), 4050 hps loss aka +4.53 mana/tick and -9 hps/tick

Beastlords are over mages again (edge is lower if we consider the PvP damage reduction making rods "only" 340 damages)

The DS you can put on your pet should be factored into your pets overall DPS somehow.

Unless pet tanks it can't, and since mages can't slow mobs they won't make their pets tank past Luclin days (or maybe PoD/PoN for a lvl 65 mage...)

And what about pet toys?  Duel wielding proc'ing swords (what is it 150 cold DD ?)  The stat belt and haste mask...

Mask is 11% haste, but i don't know what the pet haste cap is now
swords/fists are all DD 150, but BLs can get them as well (as well as belts muzzle), i myself as a necro only have to ask to a mage before i'm going doing what i want to do.

[TerjynPovar]

If you admit you are a Necro as opposed to a Magician or Beastlord, then just stop.  You keep posting things which are wrong or misleading, or both.

But the mana regen Bls get from AAs is still higher than the one Mages get

This is just the type of comment people throw out there when they don't have anything real to say.

Root makes mob target and kill the closest thing, i even doubt the PC/Pet thing gets factored it, Earth pet procs a root... not many thing else to say

Root makes the mob target and kill the closest PC.  As always, pets aren't factored in at all unless there are no PCs within range.  As a necro, the only pet class with Root, you'd think you'd know this.

Well that's false, because then i'd also need to factor in SD
But i can do both
SD: 425 mana cost, 45mn (450 ticks), 9 mana/tick, 9 hps/tick
total: 3625 mana gain (avg 8.05 mana/tick) 4050 hps gain over the 45mn
Rod: 400 mana cost, 3 charges of 450 hps loss 360 mana gain, 5mn recast (15mn total duration)
total over 45mn (3 rods): 2040 mana gain (360 * 3 * 3 - 400 * 3), 4050 hps loss aka +4.53 mana/tick and -9 hps/tick

Beastlords are over mages again (edge is lower if we consider the PvP damage reduction making rods "only" 340 damages)

This is ignoring Specialization, which makes all of a Magician's spells cheaper.

Even given that however...more Mana Regen is only better if it actually matters.  This is a tough concept to grasp for most people.  A Magician with Mod Rods doesn't need more mana regen in order to outdamage a beastlord handily.  If Magicians had more mana regen, they'd outdamage beastlords by even more.  Yet because BSTs have "more mana regen" people use that to excuse all kinds of fallacious arguments.

Unless pet tanks it can't, and since mages can't slow mobs they won't make their pets tank past Luclin days (or maybe PoD/PoN for a lvl 65 mage...)

Unless you are kiting somebody is getting hit, so the Damage Shield counts, even if it's not on the pet.

While BST pets can tank in PoP, it's not efficient.  Why are Magi and their supporters so hung up on not being able to do something so inefficient that BSTs don't want to do it anyway?

swords/fists are all DD 150, but BLs can get them as well (as well as belts muzzle), i myself as a necro only have to ask to a mage before i'm going doing what i want to do.

BSTs can get them too...but then Magicians can get Mana Regen spells cast on them as well.

Sheesh.  Pretty much quoted directly from an earlier part of the thread:  Stop downplaying what a Magician can do and overexaggerating what Beastlords can do to make yourself feel better.  FFS, you are a Necro...why did you get in the middle of this anyway?  Tiggre's post was moronic, but come back with reality, not some warped skewed version of it.

[bugman]

Tiggre's post was so stupid it's almost embarrassing being a beastlord with opinions like that being available for public consumption

my thoughts exactly, this topic isnt even close to being worth taking seriously.  tiggre (great name btw!) you're right, beastlords pretty much suck, and you should definitely go reroll a mage.

[Xalmat]

(edge is lower if we consider the PvP damage reduction making rods "only" 340 damages)

There is no PvP reduction for Rod of Mystical Transvergence. It does 450 damage, no more, no less.

Mod Rod is a maximum effective FT7.2 (which is only achievable if you have Magi`Kot's Pants of Convergence, our Elemental pants, or someone else is summoning it for you). Otherwise, if you factor in specialization, AA, and 20% mana preservation (the maximum worn mana preservation?), its at most 5.6 FT.  Not fatoring in spec, AA, and mana preserve, its 4.53 FT.This is at the cost of 9 HP/tic effective regeneration.

On Par with druids is seriously downplaying your nukes.

If a druid specializes in Evocation and has Quick Damage AA, he is a significantly better nuker than a Magician. If he only has Quick Damage AA, he will still do more burst damage than a Magician with nukes alone. It takes the pet to push the Magician above the Druid.

60+ Fire pet does not use FireElementalAttack2. That spell is for our level 56 Dyzil's Deafening Decoy. On a side note, 51+ Fire pets are completely worthless, a failure on all levels, and absolutely the worst pets in Everquest (Druid bears are better, imo).

I wasn't aware that Magicians could heal their pets....

We can, but its pathetically weak, especially compared to Beastlords (our only real edge is the faster cast time).

Planar Renewal  
Slot Description
1:  Increase Hitpoints by 1200
2:  Decrease Disease Counter by 15  
Mana: 300 Skill: Conjuration
Casting Time: 7 Recast Time: 7.5
Effective Healing: 171.4 HP/sec burst, 82.76 HP/sec sustained
Effective Efficiency: 4.0

Healing of Sorsha
Slot Description
1:  Increase Hitpoints by 2100
2:  Decrease Disease Counter by 10
Mana: 425 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 9 Recast Time: 2.25
Effective Healing: 233.3 HP/sec burst, 186.67 HP/sec sustained
Effective Efficiency: 4.94

Mages pets are situationnal

Couldn't have said it better myself. Rathe's Son, our best pet tank, is the worst pet to use in groups because it roots. Servant of Marr, our most damaging pet, can't reach its maximum potential if it can't backstab, and it has virtually no defense whatsoever besides Enrage. Ward of Xegony is the pet of choice most of the time because of its stun spell and medium midigation. Child of Ro (like said above) is worthless.

Monster Summoning IV is too new to make an effective evaluation, but it appears to be simply an upgraded form of Ward of Xegony damagewise with worse midigation.

Your earth pet getting agro and getting killed?

Root does that sometimes.

[GTGob]

There are way too many factors for anyone here to compare the overall power of magician VS. beastlord in varies EQ situation.

However, it is extremely clear that the reason Tiggre used to complain about mage SUCKS really bad, like "we are melee so our pet should tank better"? what is that!?

There are certain aspect of Bst that I think should do better than Mag but to voice my opinion here in Tiggre's thread will degrade my points to nothingless.

[Masklinn]

If you admit you are a Necro as opposed to a Magician or Beastlord, then just stop.  You keep posting things which are wrong or misleading, or both.

I am a necro, and comparing my posts to Xalmat posts i have mistakes in mine but not that many

And i never claimed to be a mage or beastie, just check sig it said Arch Lich since the beginning

Oh yeah and i'm posting as a necro because it enables me to be more neutral than when i'm comparing necro Vs BLs or necro Vs mages (mind you i have to do researches on both these classes as the 3rd pet class)

But the mana regen Bls get from AAs is still higher than the one Mages get

This is just the type of comment people throw out there when they don't have anything real to say.

No, that's just part of the argumentation, someone said mages get mana regen from their elemental form and i showed that:
1- they only get mana from 1 out of 4 forms
2- the mana regen they get from said AA is lower than the one Beastlords get from their own AAs (Paragon + SCR), the part you quoted was because i had been mistaken about Extended Duration items affecting Paragon... but then again i hadn't displayed any numbers with it factored in.

Unless you are kiting somebody is getting hit, so the Damage Shield counts, even if it's not on the pet.

good, now what if you read the quote i answered to?

The DS you can put on your pet should be factored into your pets overall DPS somehow.

DS != pet DPS

While BST pets can tank in PoP, it's not efficient.  Why are Magi and their supporters so hung up on not being able to do something so inefficient that BSTs don't want to do it anyway?

Sorry, re-read my post, never talked about that myself

swords/fists are all DD 150, but BLs can get them as well (as well as belts muzzle), i myself as a necro only have to ask to a mage before i'm going doing what i want to do.

BSTs can get them too...but then Magicians can get Mana Regen spells cast on them as well.

Differences being:
1- a mage has to get out of his XP session to get his buffs refresh
2- a beastie can bring 2 or 3 sets or mage toys, give them to pet if it ever dies and never needs to "refresh" the toys

FFS, you are a Necro...why did you get in the middle of this anyway?

I think i stated that in every post i made

[Bryc]

I fail to see how a Druid outnukes a Mage, when a Druid lacks a 2k bolt. Druid nukes are situationally equal to mage nukes, when LoS is impossible to achieve. Equal under some circumstances is not the same as equal.

And, frankly, the Druid nuke argument is a strawman. Nukes are used for one thing, damage, if you can outdamage a Druid it matters not what method you use. You still do more damage.

Clerics nuke harder than Necros. Note how little that tells you about their relative dps.

[Zorithi]

If you admit you are a Necro as opposed to a Magician or Beastlord, then just stop.  

I'm not entering this debate because I don't have a high level character of either class.  But I have to laugh out loud every time someone throws out this kind of assinine argument.

Is it because some people just refuse to believe that this is a game with players of characters?  And that those players might have expertise in more than one narrow niche in the game?  

If their expertise is in question then point out the errors and offer rebuttal.  But don't stoop to the totally imbecilic statement of accusing someone of "not being" a class or of "being" some other class and therefore somehow unqualified due to that fact alone.  That is such a cop out.  There isn't a single Beastlord posting on this forum.  We are all players of Everquest who happen to be interested in the class of Beastlord.

This game has some technical aspects to it but it truly isn't rocket science.  I'm sure some of you are walking encyclopedia of the Beastlord class, but I would wager that makes you just as unqualified at comparing the class with another as someone who primarily plays another class comparing their's with a Beastlord.  Or just as qualified if you are an optimist type.

Debate the facts and issue at hand, not the choice of main character.