Mage pets vs Beastlord warder

[Xalmat]

I fail to see how a Druid outnukes a Mage, when a Druid lacks a 2k bolt.

Once they get Black Steel and Sun Vortex, most mages never use their 2k bolt because of line of sight issues. Its a LOT worse than ranger archery. And with specialization in Conjuration, Sun Vortex and Black Steel end up being a LOT more mana efficient.

Most mages don't even mem their 2k bolt once they get their DD spells.

[Bryc]

I certainly believe you when you say most mages don't use the Bolt. However, personal experience shows me that some mages DO use it. The mage I group with most often uses it heavily. Also, some random quotes from Mage's Tower would indicate Bolt fans:

65 Mage

With the pet thrown in and FBoT I generally outperform the wizard by a small to mid amount. This is generally true, but not always the case (though most of the time it is). On the times when the 64- wizard happens to already have 100 AA banked, his crits tend to even things up quite a bit.

When grouped with a 65 wizard with SoS and 30-50 AA, I am shamed by the damage they put out in a basic xp group.

Unknown

Personally, I find using DD is by far the laziest way to play. I don't need to worry about LoS, aggroing the guy upstairs, unnatural resists or pets bashing the mob out from under the rain. Having said that I am addicted to the damage done by FoT, despite being a conjuration mage.

64 Mage

I'm 200 Specialization Conjuration spec'd, but I find myself using Evocation nukes 90% of the time. The damage dealt by chaining Sun Storm and Firebolt of Tallon is HUGE! Once I get Black Steel, however, I will probably change my tactics around a little bit. I also find myself running out of mana incredibly fast from Sun Storm + Firebolt of Tallon.

So while many Mages may eschew FoT for LoS issues, those mages that DO use it outnuke Druids significantly. Therefore, while it may be accurate to say most Mages choose to nuke as hard as Druids, Mages CAN (and do) nuke harder. Using FoT may be a huge PITA, but the option is there.

[Bosra]

Beastlord pets should mitigate better then any other pet as we are melee, not casters.  Necro's and mages have other benefits/strengths.  There's no reason to consider the beastlord pet as substandard compared to the mage.  Our pet needs to be very effective mitigating, avoiding and doing more damage then the other pets as they are pretty much a good precentage of our overall effectivenes.  You can take away the pets from the mage and the necro and it won't impact them significantly, but take away the pet from the beast and you have impacted their dps in a major way.

And thank you and your cohorts for your expert opinions on every other classes, including mine.

Remember this little gem Tiggre?

Enlighten us with your expert opinion on a class you've never played.

[Bosra]

Masklinn,
Could you please elaborate on the "low-level" DD procs your pets get?
You're throwing around numbers until then and all of the sudden you go with very generic terms.  

Remember first off that mage pets (with the exception of epic and the new MSIV) cast their spells, they don't proc them.

Other than that
WoX casts every 16 seconds according to parses and it adds around 3-5 dps.
SoM casts every 8 seconds and adds a 15 DPS

Both of these are max (assuming no partial resists).

When you factor in mana regen, you'll need to also talk about mod-rods.  

Oh yes, let's talk about Mod rods.
My group of regulars is Mag, BL, Cler, Dru, Wiz, War - All the casters use EQWatcher to time their rods and use them as often as they can.

My BL casts SD once every 45 minutes for 425 mana, the 5 casters all get 4050 mana back - the BL gains a net 3625 mana over 45 minutes, the others net 4050.  He also Paragons 3 times in 45 mintues, that's another 1440 mana per person.  Total mana per person is 5490, total HP per person is 7650.

My mage casts 3 rods per person - total of 15 - at a cost of 320 each (after spec conj and scm) for a total cost of 4800 mana.  He recovers 3240 mana from the rod at a cost of 4050 hp - he has a net loss of 1560 mana every 45 mintues and 4050 hp.  from that 4 people gain 3240 mana each at a cost of 4050 hp each.

I've seen Water form in this discussion - you do realize it can't be used on horseback, right?  So, anywhere you can use a horse you're not using WF3.

Also remember that XPG doesn't stack with 9
So, over 45 minutes
BL:
rods (3240) + SD (4050) + 9 (3600) + Paragon (1440) + KEI (6300) + FT1 (450) + Base (1050) - SD cost (425) = 19,705 mana to use.
Mage:
rods (3240) + SD (4050) + 9 (3600) + Paragon (1440) + KEI (6300) + FT9 (4050) + Base (1050) + mount (9000) - Rod cost (4800) = 26,634

So, the mage has a 35% mana advantage with far better aa's and equipment and being mounted.  

However, the BL is doing 45-50DPS on HoH mobs (according to eqwatcher) from melee alone.  Mage Malosinis, BL slows both nuke, BL is limited by nuke refresh and mage is limited by aggro with his efficient nukes and mana with rains.

The net result is that (according to EQW) my BL does 80% of the total damage of my mage per mob, a bit less if the mage is using SoM with a good tank (who doesn't move it off the back).

The DS you can put on your pet should be factored into your pets overall DPS somehow.  

And what about pet toys?  Duel wielding proc'ing swords (what is it 150 cold DD ?)  The stat belt and haste mask...

Pet toys are 10pp a shot in the bazaar - therefore just as available to either class.  And the proccing weapons only add a few DPS - they just don't go off enough.  In fact, they go off more in the hands of a BL warder (with the huge dex increase from Spirit of Rellic and IoS) than on a mage pet (with a measly 15 dex boost from the girdle, which is available to BL's too.).

And I let the Druid DS - it's not a cost effective form of DPS against 65% slowed mobs.

I won't sit here and say Mages don't need some tweaking, but come with factual stuff, not generalizations and underestimations of a Mage's power.  

**If you want to be taken seriously...

From my perspective BL's are in really good shape, and mages need a boost to their pets *FROM GEAR* not innately.  The element specific focuses should have different effects - the water one should make SoM a better DPS producer, but not a better tank, the air one should make WoX a better tank, but not DPS producer.  Make the tradeoff from WoX to SoM even more pronounced - one can sort of protect you when things go bad, the other is a pure DPS machine.

[Xuthaz]

Remember first off that mage pets (with the exception of epic and the new MSIV) cast their spells, they don't proc them

I never really understood this so maybe you can help me out, what do you mean by your pet casts?  its innate elemental attack is a 0 sec cast time spell?  so is the proc that i buff my warder with.  I don't understand the difference really?

[Wiskie]

Well I spent the weekend playing both my mage and my beastlord and here are a couple of the things I have decided. Again, this in not a BST are better than mages or a Mages are better than beastlords post.

Everyone that says Mages have good DPS are absolutely right. We are very good DPS. Our nukes are good, a bit better than druids, but not a huge amount, the pet though adds alot though. If I can use my bolt, I can outdamage the druid by about 20%, but that is situational, otherwise, damage is similar. I do use the Bolt when I can, I am an evoc mage, not a conj mage so it just makes sense.

For a comparison of pre GoD spells look at these two.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3452&source=Live
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3318&source=Live (our 2k nuke)
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3325&source=Live

Post GoD
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=4974&source=Live
I haven't seen any new GoD nuke for my mage yet, but I assume it has a simmilar increase to the druid one.

Mages do not really need a damage output upgrade. We are good, not the best, but very good.

Yes mages can heal their pets. A good way to get an idea of the difference between BST pet heals and Mage pet heals is to think of the BST one as a cleric heal (without CH) and the Mage one as a druid heal (again without CH). That will give you an idea of the reletive difference. At higher levels, both are pretty good.

Mana Regen, BST beats the Mage here without any real contest. Mages use a huge amount of mana (on par with wizards) while fighting and have pretty poor mana regen rates. BST on the other hand has a similar mana regen rate, but (at least in my style of play) does not rely on it to quite the extent of the mage. An example of this difference is with my Mage if I don't have KEI, it isn't worth continuing to hunt, with my BST I can continue being effective without the mana regen from KEI. This really stands out since the pet canni went away, and is a sore spot with alot of mages now.

The real problem (in my opinon) with mages right now is in damage avoidance. As a mage the only way to avoid dying if I get agro, even to green mobs,  is to Gate, or channel through and Nuke it. The AC and HP of a mage make both of these very difficult. If outdoors, I might have room to kite the mob a bit, but without sow that is also a very risky proposition. Jboots and run3 do help alot here. Amost all of a mages defensive power is in his pet. They are the ultimite example of the best defense is a good offense. A mages best startegy if they get agro is Kill it FAST.

This is very different form the other casting classes such as wizard or enchanter, and also very different from the other pet classes such as BST or Necro.

Both Classes are great and both have advantages and disadvantages. They are very very different in the way they are played, and really shouldn't be compared at all except that both have very powerful pets (The most powerful in the game). If this kind of thread continues, lets get away from talking about Mage power vs. BST power and maybe discuss Mage vs. BST damage avoidance. Maybe we can use some of the ways mages avoid damage to the benefit of the BST class. I know I use alot of the same techniques when I see my BST health dropping faster than I would like.

[Bosra]

Remember first off that mage pets (with the exception of epic and the new MSIV) cast their spells, they don't proc them

I never really understood this so maybe you can help me out, what do you mean by your pet casts?  its innate elemental attack is a 0 sec cast time spell?  so is the proc that i buff my warder with.  I don't understand the difference really?

It means they aren't procs - pets stop meleeing, or moving to cast it.

[Grbage]

Just curious, our pet procs generate enough hate that bst can get out of battle anytime they want short of low health agro. Our pets generate so much hate I can slow/debuff a mob and sit down within one or two procs without agro. Would more hate added to mage pets allow you to burn mobs down faster? This would avoid the fears people have of turning pets into xp group tanks due to better mitigation.

[TerjynPovar]

If you admit you are a Necro as opposed to a Magician or Beastlord, then just stop.  

I'm not entering this debate because I don't have a high level character of either class.  But I have to laugh out loud every time someone throws out this kind of assinine argument.

Is it because some people just refuse to believe that this is a game with players of characters?  And that those players might have expertise in more than one narrow niche in the game?  

If their expertise is in question then point out the errors and offer rebuttal.  But don't stoop to the totally imbecilic statement of accusing someone of "not being" a class or of "being" some other class and therefore somehow unqualified due to that fact alone.  That is such a cop out.  There isn't a single Beastlord posting on this forum.  We are all players of Everquest who happen to be interested in the class of Beastlord.

This game has some technical aspects to it but it truly isn't rocket science.  I'm sure some of you are walking encyclopedia of the Beastlord class, but I would wager that makes you just as unqualified at comparing the class with another as someone who primarily plays another class comparing their's with a Beastlord.  Or just as qualified if you are an optimist type.

Debate the facts and issue at hand, not the choice of main character.

Thanks for snipping that quote and taking it out of context.  If you'd read this board in the past you'd know that I'm one of the biggest proponents of "you don't have to play a class in order to comment on them".

My point of that paragraph wasn't that he wasn't a Magi or BST, it was that he's posted a bunch of *wrong* things not being either a Magi or Beast.  But thanks for the lecture in something I've said almost exactly word for word several times in the past.

Note, also, that I have yet to do a single real comparison in this entire thread other than "Magicians out-DPS beastlords".  That's it, and that's fact.  Everything else I've said has been fact (except perhaps the Druid nuke thing.  I admit I don't know the reality, on paper, using pure numbers, Magicians come out ahead.)

[TerjynPovar]

Oh yeah and i'm posting as a necro because it enables me to be more neutral than when i'm comparing necro Vs BLs or necro Vs mages (mind you i have to do researches on both these classes as the 3rd pet class)

But you aren't posting Neutral, you are posting such that in all cases the Magi is downplayed and the Beastlord is upgraded.

Unless you are kiting somebody is getting hit, so the Damage Shield counts, even if it's not on the pet.

good, now what if you read the quote i answered to?

The DS you can put on your pet should be factored into your pets overall DPS somehow.

DS != pet DPS

So freaking what?  All I was saying is that the damage shield counts even if your pet isn't getting beat on.  So freaking what if DS != pet DPS, it still = Magician DPS.  Tough concept no?

While BST pets can tank in PoP, it's not efficient.  Why are Magi and their supporters so hung up on not being able to do something so inefficient that BSTs don't want to do it anyway?

Sorry, re-read my post, never talked about that myself

since mages can't slow mobs they won't make their pets tank past Luclin days (or maybe PoD/PoN for a lvl 65 mage...)

You are right, you didn't mention Magician pets tanking at all.  (Oh wait, sorry, you did).

1- a mage has to get out of his XP session to get his buffs refresh
2- a beastie can bring 2 or 3 sets or mage toys, give them to pet if it ever dies and never needs to "refresh" the toys

And if the Beastlord has to zone 2-3 times he's completely out of pet toys, where the Magician still has KEI for the next 3 hours.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

[CillianFV]

Where can I find the original post regarding the pet mitigation upgrade that started this thread?

It disappeared during the thread split :?

[Xuthaz]

Its on the necro boards, here http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25932

3rd post down.

Basically end game magician pets (Rathe) will have:
5% base + 18% focus = 23% mitigation, 10% avoidance, and 10% more hp.

end game warders will have:
5% base + 15% focus = 20% mitigation

The post doesn't mention anything about a new easier quested focus item for beastlords so it looks like the difference in low tier mages pets and low tier bst pets will grow larger. as in the low game, Mage Earth pet will be 5% + 16% focus = 21% mitigation where bst warders will be 5% + 7% = 12% mitigation.  I say low game but really have no idea if that's true, It really depends on how easy the new focus items will be for magicians to acquire.

[Bosra]

Its on the necro boards, here http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25932

3rd post down.

Basically end game magician pets (Rathe) will have:
5% base + 18% focus = 23% mitigation, 10% avoidance, and 10% more hp.

end game warders will have:
5% base + 15% focus = 20% mitigation

The post doesn't mention anything about a new easier quested focus item for beastlords so it looks like the difference in low tier mages pets and low tier bst pets will grow larger. as in the low game, Mage Earth pet will be 5% + 16% focus = 21% mitigation where bst warders will be 5% + 7% = 12% mitigation.  I say low game but really have no idea if that's true, It really depends on how easy the new focus items will be for magicians to acquire.

Time grade foci (even if for a single pet type)?  I can't imagine they'll be easy by any means.

I'd say that comparing DPoC mage pets to DPoC BL pets (15% to 12%) is more appropriate at the low game.  With our ability to slow and heal better than a mage that difference is inconsequential.

The nicest change is RS going from -5 to +5 percent - a Rune based warrior type pet should have had better mitigation than a Ethereal based rogue type pet, or an Ethereal warrior pet.

With this change I may actually get RS now.

The people who benefit the most from this are groups that use pets as tanks and have a BL and a Mage - since they get the slowed mob and better mitigation.

Hey, wait, that's any time I duo :)

[Xuthaz]

Well its the LDON raid level focus, higher than Time grade, that is being made an Augment for each seperate pet for mages and necros but not beastlords.  It'll probably be a hard drop hopefully, but easier to acquire than the LDON raid.  It appears that beastlords will still have to convince their guilds to do the LDON raids to get this lvl of focus.


Oh and I still do not see a difference between these:

It means they aren't procs - pets stop meleeing, or moving to cast it

It's a 0 second casting time spell.  Spirt of Rellic is a buff that adds a 0 second cast time spell to my pet.  Both pets stop for 0 seconds in order to cast their spells.  I don't see the difference?  I've seen both Earth pets and my warder "proc/cast" back to back, and therefore neither loses melee attacks (as in, gets their melee timer reset) for casting their spells.  so what is the difference?  I Still don't understand how this is an issue?

[Toiler]

I'm glad there are mages, means I can get all the cool toys they summon for my pet  :D

If a mage pet can out mitigate a warder... so what? We slow which usually mitigates 65% of the damage, our pets have more hitpoints, we heal them for nearly 2x as much as a mage can, and our pet heals reset far faster.

Upper lvl mages will out DpS us all the time (upper lvl 65  w/100+ AA's).

Mages are designed to take mobs down fast, I'd say at least twice as fast if not faster than a beastlord could. Our balance is that we can slow the mob reducing it's damage output by 65%, our pets also stun, and bash both interupting spells and reducing MoB damage output farther. Beastlords don't need to meditate as much we tend to melee more and pull at a steady pace.

I have never had a Necro or a Mage pet out aggro my warder, even the rogue necro pet with the uber backstab. Never, ever, ever.

I think most people focus too much on DpS, and miss the point that beastlords w/pets also greatly reduce the amount of damage (even with a shammy slowing) for MoB's that are stunable.

I've dueled both Necro, and Mage pets. For the most part I think our warders come out slightly ahead.