My 1st NOTABLE "CONCERN"

Urim · July 23, 2004, 07:01:41 AM

The answer to backflagging is NOT to just get rid of flags. Maybe having guilds flagged instead of people or something similar would be an appropriate solution (but could cause numerous more headaches and programming it would probably be terrible). But getting rid of them altogether is definitely not the answer.

Cyphen Wilder · July 23, 2004, 07:19:21 AM

Not to be rude, but to use your addiction as a reason why people should not be allowed access to high-end content that they not only paid for in subscription but also in buying expansion seems pretty pathetic. Noone made you commit so much time to the game that your RL suffers. You choose how much you spend online, and how much it affects your RL. I just thought of somthing else, when I started buying expansions, such as PoP, there wasn't a disclaimer on the box that I was going to need to join ubah X guild and give up my RL for game time to see all the content of the expansion. I don't propose that when OoW comes out a free ticket to all content. I do propose that if I hit lvl 70 when it comes out that I have all old content open to me. That is not a free ticket to me. The time I am gonna spend to get to 70 will be quite awhile compared to the hardcore addicts that will grind for a week to get from 65 to 70 because of my casual playing and RL commitments. Does that make my accomplishment any less impressive then an addicts? I have loyally played this game for a longtime casually. So what makes the person who has ground out to 65 and fully flagged in 3 months more deserving then me. He has given up RL for EQ? I don't think so. I know the classes I play very well due to the time having played them for so long. I think that should be taken into account with access to content.

Chackra · July 23, 2004, 07:56:24 AM

Quote from: Gourgeous GeorgeDoes it affect my work? Yes
Do I suffer for it? Yes
Will I continue to do it? Yes
Does my RL suffer for it? Yes
Value of the achievement? Priceless!!

That is actually a very accurate summary. Flagging is a colossal PITA. In and of itself, the process is not fun except for the "achievement." Anybody who has been through it is a martyr, not a gamer.

Solo/grouping and raiding are two completely separate games. There is no rational basis to the claim that one is somehow "better" than the other. But they are different. The people who play the raid game and then come back to play the solo/group game with their Planes gear are twinked every bit as much as someone who got a job at the post office to earn the money to buy the equipment on eBay, and they have no more, or less, business being proud of their "achievement."

Mindlet · July 23, 2004, 11:38:57 PM

A level 65 that solos what used to need a raid at level 50 has no right to be proud of that achievement either by your logic.

Chackra · July 23, 2004, 11:57:44 PM

Quote from: MindletA level 65 that solos what used to need a raid at level 50 has no right to be proud of that achievement either by your logic.

"Logic" is kind of a big word. Why don't you walk me through your analysis there, hotshot?

Dasquid · July 24, 2004, 01:25:08 AM

As much as I would like to get my BL into the elemental planes, I dont think it is fair to just open them up to everyone. Having gone through the flag progression on my warrior, it would really annoy me to see someone just be able to zone in having done nothing. I do agree that backflagging is about as unpleasant an experience as there is in EQ, I dont see removing the flags as helping anything. Part of the progression served the purpose of strengthening and fine-tuning your raid force to handle bigger and better things. I think part of the introduction of the "new" Veeshan's Peak was designed to kind of "throw a bone" so to speak to the people who cant get to the elementals.

Lorathir · July 24, 2004, 01:43:41 AM

Quote from: DasquidI think part of the introduction of the "new" Veeshan's Peak was designed to kind of "throw a bone" so to speak to the people who cant get to the elementals.

From what I gather, VP is for people who have done exactly that.

As to whether elemental zones should be opened up, I'm in two minds really. It shouldn't be done in a way that trivialises other people's hard work - but imo the whole flagging concept was fundamentally flawed from the get go - meaning it ought to be looked at. Just because it was a trial for people previously doesn't mean we should suffer a poorly imagined system forever. Things change - sometimes you have to let go.

Eatbugs · July 24, 2004, 06:42:36 AM

It's sort of a moot point on Drinal at the moment anyway - not sure how it is on other servers, but the Elemental planes are full of people who got there through open raids on Drinal. (With more coming all the time.) Since it's demonstrably true that even casual gamers can get there, I don't see much point in opening it up.

As for this comment:

QuoteThe people who play the raid game and then come back to play the solo/group game with their Planes gear are twinked every bit as much as someone who got a job at the post office to earn the money to buy the equipment on eBay, and they have no more, or less, business being proud of their "achievement."

You're confusing a twink (a character that has nice gear unsupported by level or experience with that class) with someone who's overpowered for older content. They're not the same thing.

The Kittenpeeler · July 24, 2004, 08:58:33 AM

Well, I'm divided on the subject.

First off, i want to see the Elementals. I really couldn't care about Time, itself, but i'd at least like to see what the EP hububb is about.

Unfortunately, on bertoxx, open raids to not often go past Bertoxxulous himself, if they even make it to Caprin. Most often it's spam of Rallos attacks (which, to date, have never succeeded). My guild isn't exactly what you would call a "big hitter", I think we'd be hard-pressed to pull off a Dain kill, to tell you the frightful truth.

Opening up Tactics and Sol Ro, and maybe Elementals, would thus be a great benefit to me, even though i'm not even of a level to fare well in PoV yet. Plus you have the problem Strigori brought up... Once your guild is flagged, why ever bother again? This creates a glass ceiling problem, where to progress, you have to find a guild that's starting from scratch and wants you aboard.

On the other hand, it's clear, just from BoT, that the upper-level planes weren't built to support a large number of players like they are doing.

In my mind, there's two solutions... One, make flagging less of a hassle somehow. Say, once you're past the level needed to enter a zone, you are automaticly considered "keyed" for it, though you don't get the AA or charm bonus.

Thus once you hit 55, you're considered to have done the PoJ trials, Grummus, and Torment access, once you hit 62, you're assumed to have done the access flags for BoT and HoH, thus removing all those flags from your "need to do" list

The better option is adding open zones that are equal in power and reward to EP's in OOW, that can handle the stress.

Elrathin · July 24, 2004, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: Cyphen WilderNoone made you commit so much time to the game that your RL suffers. You choose how much you spend online, and how much it affects your RL. .

Yes and YOU choose how much time to put into the game. If you don't put in the time and effort you shouldn't get access to the zones. Don't persecute those that have put in the effort. PoTac gives pretty good exp for the effort and is virtually empty. Opening EP zones to everyone is not the answer.

When OoW comes out, and has been said before, most of the PoP zones will become trivial to lvl 70s much like VT is trivial to lvl 65s.

sarjent · July 25, 2004, 04:48:14 PM

The solution is to keep the zones locked and implement guild flagging.
The need to backflag would be destroyed because your guildtag carries the flag.

Cyphen Wilder · July 26, 2004, 04:12:41 AM

I still say go for level access. Earning levels is still by far the best way to learn how to play a character. And knowing how to play your character as well as taking the time to level him up to sufficient level in my opinion is a good enough commitment to be allowed to see content without having to give up my life. I've bought all the expansions, payed for all the subscriptions, and have played going on 5 years now (I think), why should I not be able to see it?

Skanda · July 26, 2004, 04:47:50 AM

Quote from: Cyphen WilderI've bought all the expansions, payed for all the subscriptions, and have played going on 5 years now (I think), why should I not be able to see it?

Because you don't put in the time/work for it.... I don't want to turn this into an uber vs casual thing but why should they just give it to you? ALL games have things like this, in EQ it just requires more time (welcome to timesinks).

Mindlet · July 26, 2004, 05:28:34 AM

Quote from: Cyphen WilderEarning levels is still by far the best way to learn how to play a character.

That used to be the case but now its no longer true. There are level 65s that have no idea on even some of the basics of the game let alone knowing how to play their character well. Its so easy to level up its not funny.

Cyphen Wilder · July 26, 2004, 05:42:54 AM

And I ask again, what is the difference between addict boy playing for three months straight to get to 65 and fully flagged and me playing for 6 years to get to 70? Where is the timesink here? And as I have pointed out before, where did it say on PoP box that I was going to have to join ubah x guild and give up my real life to play the game to its full content? Not a single place. And of course there is this:

QuoteI don't want to turn this into an uber vs casual thing but why should they just give it to you?

Me playing as long as I have and getting to such a level as 70 would not be considered "giving it to me". Leveling a toon to 65 or 70 in your eyes may seem like some little thing, since you flew through it, but to a casual gamer, 65 or 70 is a huge accomplishment. What you can do in 6 months with a toon, is something a casual gamer hopes to do in three or five years. I am not devaluing your accomplishment, why devalue mine? You value the timesink done in a short period time, but fail to recognize the timesink over a long period of time.