My 1st NOTABLE "CONCERN"

[Chackra]

If you didn't have fun doing that, you shouldn't have done it.

What does that have to do with anything?  You didn't address a single point he made.

The only point of any of this is that some people want to be "rewarded" for the "effort" they put in, and other people want to play a game.  

I don't hear people bragging about how much fun they had doing something; all I hear is people saying "If I had to go through this to get where I am, then by God so will everyone else."

[Eatbugs]

The only point to getting into elementals for a casual player is the time spent/AA ratio.  Getting AA is simply faster in Earth and Fire than in most other zones.  A few of the one-group drops are worthwhile for a casual player (most of the one-groupable drops are in the "okay but not great, if none of the new people need it maybe I'll run my alt here" category for any guild that's progressed far enough for the Fire flag) but not really better than things you could earn in LDoN.

Since the benefit for time spent is probably slightly better in LDoN as a casual player (you get both decent AA and the choice of what gear you want to upgrade) and LDoN (as Gourge points out) was designed for casual players, I really don't see much point to elementals if all you want to do is group for a couple of hours.  Raiding is, after all, what they were designed for.  If you don't want to raid, why bother?

[Strigori]

One thing that the advocates of opening dont understand, is that  sol ro, elementals and time are first and foremost raid zones.  2 groups can by and large camp out sol ro if they are chain pulling.   Ever see anyone xp in air? risk vs reward isnt there for it.  Water? think kedge on steroids, again not a place many go to hit some AA.  That really leaves earth and fire as the zones most people with acsess xp in.   Hell anymore even these 2 zones are populated by no  more than 2 groups on A Ro.  Most people tend to play in hard LDoN or GoD.   Other than the B zones(which are raid only anyhow) you cant get into 6 zones in PoP. Boo Hoo, cry me a river.  You didnt earn it if you cant get there.  

Would I like to see backflagging changed? yes, but ONLY to a guildflag  like has been mentioned where your tag gets you the flag(possible needing a certain number of members flagged for it to work)  

And as someone mentioned it, Yeah my guild has lost some people, but nothing that has crippled us by any strech of the imagination.  Guilds at this tier generally have required flags for somone to even app with them, mine is no execption.   And if we have to spend a week every few months blowing through  some backflags, so be it.   I dont know if its commonplace on other servers, but on Aro guilds doing a raid on a flag mob, tend to have acouple guests from other guilds along for the backflag, this more or less gentalmans agreement certainly eases the strain of backflaging(backflagging meaning the guild sending guests has won the encounter on thier own at least once or twice, not forward flaging).

Again, opening them just so some people who cant hack the content can ruin it for those who worked for it is a surefire way to alienate the raiding portion of the subscribers.  More levels and AA trivialize content enough.

[Leatherneck]

I guess I don't see where you draw the line as to who should be let in and who should not be let in.  It seems to me, that your stance is only let those that have suffered to be let in.  What about those that have been loyal gamers?  

Then I shall educate you.  If you've earned the flags, you should be let in.  If you've not done so, you should not be let in.  That make it easier?

[Aneya]

When PoP came out, it was technicaly possible to get to HoH, Torment, CoD and Tactics through alt flagging. In practice, these quest where either way too convoluted or too buggy to be effective. That is part of the reason why they opened up most of the Tier 2 and Tier 3 zones.

The only zone in PoP I'd like to see opened up is Sol Ro. The reason being Ornates drop there. However if I where to open up Sol Ro I'd do it via alt flagging just like Tactics that way people would still need to earn their way in.

[RabidMonkey]

IM in a casual guild full of casual players, and we have casually dtrolled into the ele planes ;p

[Urim]

If you didn't have fun doing that, you shouldn't have done it.

What does that have to do with anything? You didn't address a single point he made.

The only point of any of this is that some people want to be "rewarded" for the "effort" they put in, and other people want to play a game.

I don't hear people bragging about how much fun they had doing something; all I hear is people saying "If I had to go through this to get where I am, then by God so will everyone else."

Have you ever done something where at the time you hated doing it but later on down the road you can look back and realize how much fun or how worthwhile the time was spent? I know i have in RL and its how i also feel about a lot of the keying/flagging/timesink aspects of this game. At the time im working through it im hating every minute of it but now that i can look back, i think fondly of the times when i was with a group hunting down a named hoping for a key drop, or in a raid trying repeatedly the same mob and discussing strats and possible ways to win in guildchat.

At the time it may be a pain, but the journey to achieve the key/flag/zone/loot is almost as valuable as the thing itself. It's become apparent that those wanting these zones opened up for the 1337 experience or drops don't care about the journey but it is part of the game and part of progression and just because a group of people don't enjoy it doesn't mean it should be taken out. Because there is a whole other segment who do enjoy it and who would like the chance to be able to look back and think fondly of the time spent with guildies and friends working toward a common goal.

It is true that this is a game, but as with all games you have to play by the rules and one of the rules in this game is beat X mob to get Y prize. Why take away the thrill of earning the prize and the memories from people that have yet to get it and want to actually EARN it? With level 70 coming in OoW earning the prize will be much easier so why not leave it in so people can still have something to work for?