Warders: The root of all evil

[Tytallia]

"3) BL pets must have knockback effect eliminated during raids at all times. This includes bash effects as well. Using a 2hb (can be weapon summomed by mages) is a must even at dps cost." Apparently I am the only person in my guild that sees any problems with this quote. Taken from officer's post regarding rules for pets on raids... as if it really matters because we aren't even allowed pets 99% of the time. What's even better is the fact that this perception on warders seems to be a serverwide "fact." What the (insert 5minutes of swear words here) can I do to enlighten people who won't put any value in my words unless I can provide cold hard data that contradicts the "facts."

I know this as an old old rant but it just pushed me over the edge when we last did RZTW and people sent me tells asking why I didn't have a pet up. I got so sick of being jacked out of 30-40% of my DPS on raids that my warder "deguilded" almost a month ago and people just called me childish. It's my choice anyways whether or not to use my pet (or so that was the rule when I joined this guild)... when people start saying crap like, "You want us to fail? We need the pet (rampage) tanks on RZ." I just want to fucking scream.

"Warders (just bst pets mind you) are a menace." "Players don't cause push, that's a feature they added when Luclin came out that only warders have." "The only thing that pushes mobs through walls is pets." I could go on for hours about the stupidest things I have been told by Torvites regarding warders. Instead I will go backing to demolishing this brick wall with my skull.

[Kanne]

my warder "deguilded" almost a month ago

Something about this line is funny as hell.  I'm gonna have to try this next time my pet gets blamed for anything.  In the past month, he has three broken mezzes, rooted a mob, and trained an entire group while on pet hold.

[Jaeren]

Neat since pets can't break mez, warders can't root & they shouldn't train since they'd stand and fight. Where can I send my warder to learn how to root, that could be useful :P

[Aneya]

Did Saryrn cycle last night. Had 30 melees on the back of a mob + 1 MT on the other side. Mob gets pushed all over the place and a Paladin starts complaining that pets and monk AA kick are pushing the mob all over the place. I look around and only see one necro pet. Yeah blame it on the pet, 30 melees have absolutely no knockback.

[Kanne]

I guess the point was Jareen was that my pet can't even do have the things he's blamed for.  And yes, I have been told my pet broke mezz when he wasn't even engaged on that particular mob.  Warders are easy scapegoats, they can't even defend themselves.

[Morganti]

how to handle guild smacktards who don't know anything

step one
make a guild pet channel during the raid

use pet while clearing trash

have all pet classes suspend pet just before boss mob

explain that you are making a point about your pet not being responsible for all the evils blamed on it

when someone blames a pet for something, ask if they see any pets...then ask your guild leader to kindly de guild the blind person, as they are a detriment to the guild if there eyes don't work right...

or
just use a sharp knife and have it embrace there left eye...

[gungo ninescullz]

The bst warder does have a huge push (pet proc/bash) but so do melee (although most push comes from bash/kick) and most spells, but i use it as a benefit i place my pet to offset the raid from pushing mobs. make due with what you have and use it. that is what seperates the good from the great bstlords.

[Ghoat]

Pets can, and do break mezzes, albeit it's not that common.  And even if it is really NOT the pet doing it, but an odd agro situation, it's hard to try to sell that when "XXXXX has been awakened by YYYY's Warder" is on everyone's screen :/

6 people with pets up is a drop in the bucket to 30 melee's bashing a mobs.  And even IF the warder had this knockback effect, 99% of raid mobs are pinned into one place anyway, so if the pet really WAS pushing that hard it would be a good thing.

Will all due respect, your officer is an utter idiot with regard to understanding  pets.

[bugman]

ive recently struggled with the same thing in my guild. luckily only a few members started posting idiotic things on our message board, mainly one of our main tanks, about how bst pets are pushing too much, and this is the kicker, how my pet kept snatching agro from him on a solro mini. yah thats right, he blamed my pet for taking agro AWAY from him, a PC... luckily most of the guild arent idiots and understand general ways of the pet. and the most important thing is i posted a non ranting non flaming post of facts about how pets and push and pet push and agro and pet agro etc etc etc all work, and most of the guild including several officers said that if i, an actual beastlord, am saying how my pet works then they'll take my work for it.

hopefully you can get some sane people on your side to help educate others.  its not easy when people of a powerfull nature are against you or your pet (in my case our 2nd best tank). i know that if idiotic statements and urban legends became accepted by my guild and i wasnt allowed to use a pet or got a ton of bs for it that wouldnt be my guild for long. not just because pet bashing is usually just bashing the pet owner (even push, since yes its pets that push but the pc has to position it), but more importantly i would run for the hills as that guild and its general ways are very very outdated and dangerously ignorant.


only partially on topic, but didnt want to start a new post so...

some claims that were made against my pet on the recent bst pet bashing post on my guilds message board:

4 bst pets = needing 15 melee to compensate and counter bst pet push

bst pet proc has a huge knockback effect

4 bst pets blocked a mt from even being able to move or approach a large dragon

a mt didnt use defensive, bloodfrenzy proced 25 times was chain taunting and inciting and still couldnt keep agro (and attributed it to bst pet stealing agro)

bst pets push more then other pets (maybe true for some of the mage casting pets but dont see why bst pet would push more then other full on melee pets, who knows dont feel like testing really)

its not the actual pet thats pushing, or the stun component of bst pet procs since the proc doesnt even land on most named raid mobs and not even usually on trash mobs, its the DD that is actually what causes bst pets to generate so much push

bst pet push is most easily solved by positiong pets spread out around a mob (cuz other melee cant move and god forbid a mage or necro actually have to think about pet positioning!)

bst pet will push a mob with 10 pcs on other side

yah so this was some of the accusations and theories i was up against, and of course i posted a long and somewhat mild non rant of an informative post, and luckily most of the other bsts posted agree with me and we all had a good laugh at the things people can dream up. its kinda flattering, all the hubub over us!

my advice: find informed people in the guild and hope they go to bat for you. try to post positive non ranting information on your guilds message board about pets and how they work (example of this is one point i brought up is that if a bst pet is pushing so much maybe train and give bsts in the guild duties to counter push gone bad, of course requires bst to be trained to reposition a pet, which isnt all that hard since we're melee and can jsut circle around, then instead of bad push you have you AND pet countering push!). as a last ditch thing i would consider a new guild, i know that when the bst bashing post was first made on my guilds board i felt very offended and trivialized and luckily most of the posts were in my and the other bsts favour, but if they werent and bst hate was allowed to continue and even be perpetuated i would have considered a new, more informed and respectfull guild.

[Mindlet]

Does anyone know how many hits a warder can do in 1 second fully hasted? Since each hit will push a bit the faster you hit the more you push. Most melee use relatively slow 2H that presumably push less. Its possible that warders do push more than the melees because they hit alot more times.

Perhaps directing the igornant ones to the lucy database when the proc can be seen to have no pushback would be a help.

The worst thing for pushing in my experience is pallys bashing and stunning.

[The Kittenpeeler]

Well, if you'd made an Iksar or Troll instead of a furball, you could sneak out a pet and nobody would notice.  But nooooo. Gotta be a litterscratcher  :P  :P

[Tytallia]

Well, if you'd made an Iksar or Troll instead of a furball, you could sneak out a pet and nobody would notice.  But nooooo. Gotta be a litterscratcher  :P  :P

Ah yes, troll/iksar warders that are fucking gigantic compard to the amount of constructive input you. Please to be pissing off with your ignorant race bashing.

[Silresa]

Ooooh.. Ignorance about pets.. I -love- this issue.

I like to think, whether rightfully so or not, that I understand a good bit about the game and how some things work.. And there is nothing I enjoy more than talking down some annoying whiner at a raid that blames pets for something.

In fact, I made a rather lengthy post a while ago on the board for my guild's alliance about how pets are highly beneficial.

Yes, our pets create a good deal of aggro. No, our procs do not have any special knockback that any other DD doesn't, of course unless you're using Spirit of the Wind which DOES indeed have a knockback. But who uses that over Storm/Rellic, anyway? ;) (Admittingly, I do sometimes just for fun, when the raid sees mobs starting bouncing around like mad and panics.)

Yes, melees produce a heck of alot of push, when I'm solo'ing, I always get on the opposite side of my pet, and nearly balance it out.. So, these ten melees it takes to balance out your one pet.. Well.. They must all be naked, slowed and wielding worn great staves, at best.

Our pet's aggro.. Yeah, they aggro like crazy mad. In fact, 90% of the time if a mob gates, MY warder gets summoned before the MT and before the clerics. Our pets are just like that. However, if there's a player in range, they will have aggro.. No matter what.. So yeah. ;)

But really, more than anything, I hate to see this kind of ignorance, and I hate that it's so widespread. Few people that I just run across seem to understand how pets work, and pet seem to always be first on the scapegoat list.

[Vecsus]

Well, if you'd made an Iksar or Troll instead of a furball, you could sneak out a pet and nobody would notice.  But nooooo. Gotta be a litterscratcher  :P  :P

Ah yes, troll/iksar warders that are fucking gigantic compard to the amount of constructive input you. Please to be pissing off with your ignorant race bashing.

nice civil and constructive post.

[Zentrel]

One in every litter Vecsus....

But, back to the topic on hand.

ARo people seem to have been edjucated upon the subject of pets which i am greatful for.  due to this i have been fortunate to have not run across very many people on ARo who think this way.