Well, I woke up this morning and checked my trader, 4.5k sold overnight - very nice. Hmm..okay I have 36k now (a little over), lets take a depressed look at the state of Sha's revenge, etc. OMG, someone is selling for 35k.
I took another decision and snapped this up leaving myself 1.6k, lol. Scribed it and looking forward to testing it out this evening once we have got a bit more sorted here.
Everyone I have spoken to regarding this compared to our 50% version say's its much better. Any ideas where I can prove to myself that this is indeed a significant increase over our previous version?
I'm so glad I've finished saving for this damn spell. I suspect I'll get a BoT group tonight and win a rune, lol.
What I have found out is a few nifty ways of increasing my cash should I need. Its taken me just over 3 weeks to save this much and I have taken some nice bits off my necro but there ya go. Time to play the beastlord alot!
Larzzus
"Any ideas where I can prove to myself that this is indeed a significant increase over our previous version?"
Everywhere. Seriously just log-in and try casting it on yourself. The reduction in casting time between advantage and revenge is huge imo. Then just pull a mob you've fought before and watch it. Or even pull with 60 slow, then stick 65 after a bit and watch the hits slow down. It really is an awesome upgrade and congrats on finally getting it. I'm sure you'll notice the difference right away and you'll always be glad you have it.
I did. I went to PoN where I'd been dossing around before grinding some AA.
What a difference! I had an add at one point, slowed them both and tanked until the first was down, then let pet kill the other. Seriously I would never have been able to do that with the 50% slow or I would've been very low on health.
Very glad of this purchase...
Larzzus
Sha's revenge is the best thing you will ever buy in the bazaar, ever.
I think you're exactly right Murkk.
Last night did an LDoN in butcher, nothing special about it 40 mins maybe. Group consisted of Pally, SK (I know, not my group), druid, chanter, cleric and myself.
Everone stayed on for another, and this time we hit nro. After a few rolls and split we got another adventure. Chanter goes ld about 2 mins after. We wait for a while at the zone in in oasis. When we have 10 mins to get the adventure we goes in deciding that he will catch up.
Everything is going okay, adds are being dealt with okay. Druid goes LD about halfway through, bum. Okay, so we carry on with 4 of us, pally, sk, cleric and myself. Cleric has a prob pacifying or it wears off, so 4 mobs come and say hello to him and in about 2 ticks, he's down. Rest of us zone.
Cleric comes back and at this time we have about 30 mins to complete the adventure with about 10 more drops to get. We bum kei and haste from a chanter and head back in. With 7 mins to go we complete and everyone was like, omg I didn't think we were going to do that.
Well, from my point of view I think we would have had a tough job completing that if I had to use my 50% slow. Worth its weight in gold.
Larzzus
The new slow is significant enough that you can be called in for "slower" in groups instead of primarily just dps. I am also backup slower in my guild in case the shamans die before the mob is slowed.
(mine actually is resisted less often than theirs is for some reason)
It also helps if you solo. When you go someplace with things trying to hit for 300s or so and you want to solo it.. that extra slow % makes a large difference.
I can't recall an LDoN I've done, except one, where I was NOT the main slower with Sha's Revenge. Even most Shaman seem to want to let me slow so they can do something else. Now, on hards it might be different, but for Normals it is such overkill that clerics get entirely bored.
Unruly
On hards I actually use my slow just as much if not more. Enchanters usually use their lower level slow (50%) on normals just because of the casting time. With an enc willing to slow and a solid group (or a group that we don't bother with slow at all) I have no problem turning that slow mana into more dps. On hards everything mitigates slow. The signifigantly faster casting time on revenge usually makes a solid difference. If a bard can bring to camp HoS'd that's great. If not I'll use protective spirit on resists. Either way I often find myself slowing well over half the mobs in a hard whether there's a shm an enc a bard whatever.
On hards I usually have two slows memmed and chanter tashes/mezzes, I slow. Only after everything is either 50% or 65% slowed I even start thinking about doing dps. On easy ldon slowing is often waste of time, unless I'm tanking so I can slow for aggro and kill two birds with one stone.
That's one of the nice things about being bst though. Even when I'm slowing and strifing and helping to get a hold on the situation I'm still doing dps because my pet is going strong. And yes running two slows in a hard can quite literally be a lifesaver(often times your own!). Normals it depends on the group. Sometimes I'll just pull with scorp venom and not even bother with slow hehe. Those aren't often, but when they happen they are fun.
Quote from: larzzusEveryone I have spoken to regarding this compared to our 50% version say's its much better. Any ideas where I can prove to myself that this is indeed a significant increase over our previous version?
Here's my proof:
Would you like to see:
Random_GroupLeader00 tells you, "We need a slower, do you have 65 slow?"
You told Random_GroupLeader00, "Yes."
Random_GroupLeader00 tells you, "Come to <wherever>."
Or:
Random_GroupLeader00 tells you, "We need a slower, do you have 65 slow?"
You told Random_GroupLeader00, "No."
Random_GroupLeader00 tells you, "nm."
Quote from: Noriko
Random_GroupLeader00 tells you, "We need a slower, do you have 65 slow?"
You told Random_GroupLeader00, "Yes."
Random_GroupLeader00 tells you, "Come to <wherever>."
It's probably just me, but this question annoys the piss out of me. My response on the second line there is much more likely to be
You told Random_GroupLeader00, "Yes, but since you asked I don't want to join you."
What is wrong about asking if the person you are recruting for a certain task is capable of said task? I mean how many clerics get groups because it's obvious they'll have a level 39 vender spell that most don't use that often in groups. I don't know maybe it's just me, but if I'm inviting a random person I've never met before I'd like to have some idea about them. Sure if someone is asking for a full resume, 3 referances, and urine sample for grouping that's a bit much. However, the shift between advantage and revenge not only in slow % but also casting time and ability to lock down mobs / handle resists is quite large.
I didn't say it was rational. I said it annoys me.
I am not one spell/skill. I don't like it when people only want me for Paragon or Spiritual Dominion anymore than Sha's Revenge.
And to top it off 9 times out of 10 this question comes from somebody doing normal 65 LDoNs or easy stuff in Tier 1/2 planes.
As I was trying to convince a monk friend (64) and a pally friend (62) to get to 65 before doing anything else, I realize it is the same issue: perception.
What gear you have, how good you are, how many AA you've got, etc. are irrelevant when it comes to strangers. All they have to go by is your level and your guild tag (and in this case, your spells). As much as we agree (or not) that a level 64 with 500 AAs is probably better than a level 65 with 50, it is irrelevant to strangers who cannot gauge what they cannot see.
I understand what you mean Terj but it is also secondary to those who rely on pick up groups. Without a steady group of friends and guildies available whenever you want to play (and we all play in some odd hours sometimes), your level says what you are. And if others likes to know, in addition to that, that they are skipping over the 75% slow shammy to settle for a 65% slow bst with more DPS, that's their choice. None of us can go anywhere unless we can market ourselves. That's just the way it is.
Hell, you can probably get in the group and use your 50% slow, it has the same message and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. Its all perception.
I can see how some of it get's annoying and some of it actually is irrational. I once had a PoV group (/sigh) that turned down my level 64 friend with full spell book and over 200 AA's because they wanted the level 65 that had...FOUR AA and NONE of his 63+ spells. This of course was a bit extreme and annoying, but it happens.
In the case of a bst and slow though you are being invited as slower. As much as you may not want to be a spell or a skill or whatever. As versitle as bst are the simple truth is sometimes we are literally wanted and invited for just one thing. MGB paragon get's people's attention, Pet hold in spots, 65 slow, and even fero. Early on I got a few melee that quickly picked up on me keeping fero on 4 people and liked it. *shrugs* I can see how it get's annoying, but a the sametime it's a huge bonus. It's like all the enc that complain people seek them out so heavily for buffs. Certainly they aren't just this buff or that buff despite what some might think, but it certainly get's you some business.
Well, let's draw a parallel here.
Do you ask that 65 Warrior if he has an Enraging blow weapon before you ask him to join?
No, that'd be ludicrous.
But for most groups this would be the same exact question, as that Warrior will be that much more effective as 65% slow over 50% slow.
For that matter, I cannot think of any other class, anywhere, that gets asked if they have one specific spell/skill/item, yet somehow it's acceptable to ask BSTs this question.
Quote from: TerjynPovarDo you ask that 65 Warrior if he has an Enraging blow weapon before you ask him to join?
No, because the warriors SOLE function in an xp group is tanking. You don't recruit them for dps OR tank. You recruit them only for tanking.
Quote
For that matter, I cannot think of any other class, anywhere, that gets asked if they have one specific spell/skill/item, yet somehow it's acceptable to ask BSTs this question.
Rangers get asked if they have EQ/AM3 quite often.
Druids get asked if they have their CH spell if being recruited as group healer.
If you are being recruited for dps, the slow doesn't matter. However if the group is in need of a slower, and that is why they are asking you (read: you would not even be considered for the group if they were only looking for dps - group wants a slower only) why would it be so hard to accept that they want to know if you have the best possible slow available to your class?
QuoteNo, because the warriors SOLE function in an xp group is tanking. You don't recruit them for dps OR tank. You recruit them only for tanking.
Do you even know what an enraging blow weapon does? Quite obviously the answer is no.
QuoteRangers get asked if they have EQ/AM3 quite often.
Druids get asked if they have their CH spell if being recruited as group healer.
The lesser Druid complete heal costs 6 plat at a vendor, so every druid in existence would answer yes to your question.
The Ranger example is a good example though, and you are right, people get asked that. Doesn't change what I think either, if I was a Ranger who got asked that I'd have exactly the same response.
Quote. However if the group is in need of a slower, and that is why they are asking you (read: you would not even be considered for the group if they were only looking for dps - group wants a slower only) why would it be so hard to accept that they want to know if you have the best possible slow available to your class?
It's not hard for me to accept. I don't need them anymore than they need me. So I say screw you for asking. That's my prerogative. I'm not interviewing for a job here, this is a game.
Quote from: TerjynPovar
Do you even know what an enraging blow weapon does? Quite obviously the answer is no.
Sure I do. And reading comprehension is your friend. My point is that you don't say "Hey warrior, we need some dps - do you have XXXX weapon?" Their sole function is to hold aggro and tank, and are presumed to be able to do that, with or without weapons that generate more aggro.
Beastlords however can perform multiple roles in a group, including (but not limited to) slowing. If that is what they are being recruited for, people want to make sure that they can slow as best as possible.
All I am saying is that before you decide to flame someone (and mediocrely at best) please check your condescending attitude at the door, and understand what is being said before replying.
And just fyi - I agree that it is annoying. But wouldn't you prefer to know WHY you are being asked to join a group instead of getting there and then having a group wipe because you didn't know you would be on slows?
Here's another example. Rogues. I remember back in seb CONSTANTLY asking rogues if they had pick lock skill high enough. We didn't care about their dps at that point, they weren't being asked for dps they were being asked for their utility (in this case lock pick).
I've seen raids ask shaman if they have malo. Again a rare(r) spell at the time, but one that for the purpose they were being invited was VERY relivant. Also like I mentioned with fero I've never been asked if I had it before joining a group but I assure you many have noticed it and made note of it. Just like a warrior with or without enraging blow weapons. Their ability shines through. I know two different SK's that I don't have MT, they simply don't hold aggro they play horrible. I have a couple warrior friends that I MT for and they just add dps. Things aren't always about the best or max/min, but at certain times the drop you take going from 75% slow to 50% slow verse going from 75 to 50 will change peoples minds about shm/bst for a group or bst/enc or even bst/bard at that point. Again I don't recall every asking a question beforehand and I think some cases could go to extremes, however, the case of slowing for a bst is relivant imo and I don't blame any group leader that would ask.
In any case, the point is, our 65 slow is role-defining if not class-defining. If a group is looking for a slower (a role) and I don't have my 65 slow (the tool that defines the role), then I'm not a level appropriate slower for them. Pure and simple.
Quote from: BeaneaterQuote from: TerjynPovar
Do you even know what an enraging blow weapon does? Quite obviously the answer is no.
Sure I do. And reading comprehension is your friend. My point is that you don't say "Hey warrior, we need some dps - do you have XXXX weapon?" Their sole function is to hold aggro and tank, and are presumed to be able to do that, with or without weapons that generate more aggro.
Sure, but beastlords can slow with or without Sha's Revenge. Sha's Revenge is a 40% better slow...a warrior with an enraging blow weapon holds aggro at least 40% better. It's a simple parallel. The warrior's DPS has nothing to do with it.
The Rogue situation isn't the same in that it's either 100% or 0%, you either can or you can't. Beastlords without Revenge aren't at 0% slow capability.
Look, the attitude is because I said in my second post that my annoyance wasn't rational. Let me say it again: MY ANNOYANCE IS NOT RATIONAL.
Therefore, no amount of explaining, cajoling, or examples are going to matter in the slightest to me. And like I said, I can say screw you if I want. I've turned people down just because they had a dumb name before, this is a far better reason than that. :)
Just an FYI here. My old main is a warrior and I still pull him out to play along. Prior to the recent melee upgrade it was not uncommon to get tells asking what weapons I had before getting a group invite. Since taunt doesnt have a good success rate a good agro generating weapon set is highly desired if your going to be in the MT position. This is no different then people wanting a bst to have their 65 slow to fill the main slower role.
Thank god I don't do pickup groups. No ridiculous worrying about what I do or don't have. I'd never try anything outside the box if I was always worried about having the best spell for the job. I'd also never try anything outside my comfort zone.
I think the problem with Sha's Revenge is in how we talk about it.
We say "50% slow" and "65% slow"...but that doesn't really make the difference sound like much....when the difference is really rather significant.
The person who is tanking a 50% slowed MOB is taking 42+% more damage than the person who is tanking a mob slowed by Sha's Revenge.
That's 42% more healing that is required....or that the healer needs to react 42% faster to a problem situation...and that is a significant difference, no matter how much DPS you have.
Quote from: AggyThe person who is tanking a 50% slowed MOB is taking 42+% more damage than the person who is tanking a mob slowed by Sha's Revenge.
That's 42% more healing that is required....or that the healer needs to react 42% faster to a problem situation...and that is a significant difference, no matter how much DPS you have.
I think that's stretching it a bit. 42% more damage is just that, a percentage.
e.g. An typical unslowed LDoN mob is around 200 DPS, so the 2 slows gives 100 DPS vs 70 DPS. For a 1-minute fight, that's 1,800 damage difference, and that's assuming all hits land and land for full, which they never do. At 65, 1,800 damage is just a
scratch. Assuming a decent tank with 8K HP, that's a difference of whether to heal at 50 or at 25, to the healers, its really not a significant difference.
While 42% sounds like a lot, 1,800 damage isn't that significant. As I said, its all about perception. If someone "NEED" that 65% slow over the 50% one, that's their problem. But if I don't get a group because of it, then its my problem.