I have been playing extensively with the new warder in SoF and raiding and it still has shortfalls, whereas it is an improvement it has been given shortchange compared to mage pets. While its hard to argue that the Mage class needed upgrades its hard to see why they get a pet capable of holding agro over toons in a group and can tank two level 80 mobs in Bloodmoon Keep.
1) Enrage - Our warder still get killed in an instant, mages get immunity to enrage. Do we have this AA?
2) AE ramp - Still takes damage but is better. Again mage pet gets immunity. Do we have this AA i didnt see it.
2) Offtanking - Is still not good enough for SOF content
3) AE's - Our warder is taking more damage from AE spells than I am, enough to one round compared to a 50% drop on our 22k warrior.
4) AA - We have an AA that increase HP of warder by 1 5 10%, unless combined with AC or similar this is of little benift.
5) Warder is still getting 1 rounded in general mellee combat when the group tank decides to back off and move a mob.
Our warder has recieved some upgrades, but not yet enough.
To the contrary, I've had zero problems with my pet. He survived through Big Bynn (lots of AE's) just fine. I haven't tested AE rampage yet, but the pet mitigation AA's have helped tremendously.
I agree, We have been short changed on the improvent to our companions. The mag's are now out DPSing the wizzards yet we stay way down on the chart. They still die way too easy, I couldnt even solo a drk blue mob with p mend and pet heal being spammed. not up to par yet
Basing complaint on facts and needs is fine. Basing complaints on jealousy of another class is bad form, and tends to sabotage any legitimate points you have. And yes, you do come across as jealous at this point, and not just in this post.
I have noticed my pet out tanks me nicely, even tho im max defensives (-sof onses atm still working on those) when i used to out tank my warder by far. Pet clericing if a handy tool but i always rake, dd and dot just oor of the mobs reach to help with dps since its slow heh.
Quote from: Inphared on November 20, 2007, 02:09:53 PM
To the contrary, I've had zero problems with my pet. He survived through Big Bynn (lots of AE's) just fine. I haven't tested AE rampage yet, but the pet mitigation AA's have helped tremendously.
/agree
I had no problems lastnight on raids. Fluffy survived just fine on Big Bynn and a few others that we tried.
Quote from: jitathab on November 20, 2007, 12:59:46 PM
I have been playing extensively with the new warder in SoF and raiding and it still has shortfalls, whereas it is an improvement it has been given shortchange compared to mage pets. While its hard to argue that the Mage class needed upgrades its hard to see why they get a pet capable of holding agro over toons in a group and can tank two level 80 mobs in Bloodmoon Keep.
1) Enrage - Our warder still get killed in an instant, mages get immunity to enrage. Do we have this AA?
2) AE ramp - Still takes damage but is better. Again mage pet gets immunity. Do we have this AA i didnt see it.
2) Offtanking - Is still not good enough for SOF content
3) AE's - Our warder is taking more damage from AE spells than I am, enough to one round compared to a 50% drop on our 22k warrior.
4) AA - We have an AA that increase HP of warder by 1 5 10%, unless combined with AC or similar this is of little benift.
5) Warder is still getting 1 rounded in general mellee combat when the group tank decides to back off and move a mob.
Our warder has recieved some upgrades, but not yet enough.
-Mage pets can't hold agro over PC's so long as a PC is in melee range. That is hard coded in for all pets.
-Enrage, might of missed it but I don't remember anything in beta about mage pets ignoring enrage. But, monk aura does allow melee to ignore enrage. Not sure if this works on pets to but that would be my guess of why the pet was surviving.
-AE's, we've been giving several runes to help protect the pets from them. I personally prefer to use my spell slots for something else but they do increase your pets survivability.
-1 rounded. Prior to tweaking I couldn't keep a pet alive in beta at all, just couldnt heal fast enough. Post tweak I could keep the pet alive playing pet cleric with no issue against mobs that were tearing me a new one (had limited aa to spend so didn't have all defensive aa's) Sure you can find tougher mobs then I was testing on but pets came a long way this go around.
Overall we got some solid improvements with SoF, can pets be better? Yes, but pointing at mages and crying isn't the way to go about it.
Umm shows Ive made one post one here.. really thought this page was non existant untill I revamped my fav files on a new computer. Jellous,, mhh.. possible. More like unhappy that we have gotten the short end of the stick yet again. 3 pet block spells, no new slow, no new haste. Its like we have been set on a shelf to gather dust. Im a raider and do my darnest to help win the round, It wasnt untill they put a little control on the push that I could even use my warder on raid mobs.
So Im whining about a class's pet that had the same problem with push as I did, all there was to it. Were pet class's see no reason not to compare our pets.
I haven't reached the level to get the SoF pet yet, but I would like to hear some calculations on it though. Such as what kind of mob hits can it take where playing pet cleric is somewhat efficient?
Would it be able to tank RS easily with my 9k manapool to keep him alive?
Course mage pets are better...but can a mage tank toe to toe with AG mobs or spam paragon every 2 min (omg it's insane! - I can't find it on lucy but if it's about 900 mana with buff extension focus it's the equivalent of perma FT 45 if you spam it on yourself)?
SoF warder is solid - it can tank reasonably well in Ashengate but beyond that content he won't be staying up for long. Riftseekers mobs should be np at all - prob won't even have to heal warder at all would be my guess.
Quote5) Warder is still getting 1 rounded in general mellee combat when the group tank decides to back off and move a mob.
Why is your pet the only melee on the mob, what were you doing lol? Also, why isn't your tank out argoing a pet?
Quote from: Keno on November 20, 2007, 05:43:45 PMIm a raider and do my darnest to help win the round
Buy focused paragon and stop worrying about your pet then. :roll:
Sorry Keno, I was talking to the original poster, you just got your reply in ahead of mine.
And no, comparing pets by themselves between classes is not fair at all. You need to compare the entire package -- master and pet, taking into account playstyle differences. So what if my pet isn't as good a solo tank as a mage pet? Most of the time my pet isn't required to tank at all...I'm doing it!
Quote from: Inphared on November 20, 2007, 08:26:42 PM
Buy focused paragon and stop worrying about your pet then. :roll:
Pet DPS is a portion of our DPS I dont want to just be a utility toon sit on my tail and cast pargon all day. Im a hybrid and should be up there with the rest of the hybrids dont ya think?
http://forums.beastlords.org/index.php?topic=7665.msg82120#msg82120 <-- That's me beating all of the other hybrids on a parse.
http://forums.beastlords.org/index.php?topic=7701.msg82145#msg82145 <-- That's me hitting harder than any other hybrid I've seen to date.
Anything else you'd like to add?
the sky is blue....
Sorry, just posting that, to see if Inphared will disagree with it too
I may disagree, but I provide evidence to back my bunny up. Do you?
(The sky really isn't blue. It's light refracting off of the water particles in the air.)
And in some zones the sky has a completely different colour :)
And yes, i haven't had the pleasure of the 15k hit but 7k is still mighty fine for a 30 sec refresh ability. And the dps is easy to confirm if you raid with the relevant weapons and classes.
I dont see any real issues with our pets, if you dont have the AA's yes I can see pets not being where you think they should be, but once you add in the AA's our pets are greatly better then they were before.
As for Dps inph know's who rules the roost =P
Quote from: Inphared on November 21, 2007, 12:03:28 AM
I may disagree, but I provide evidence to back my bunny up. Do you?
(The sky really isn't blue. It's light refracting off of the water particles in the air.)
I honestly don't care how much evidence you bring to the table. Its the condescending tone of your posts, that is nicely displayed in the quote.
You may be Inphared, from Triality - but honestly, I see you as just another person that pays to play a game. You are no more, no less. You may have a bit more knowledge of the game, but you certainly don't show it with your snide comments.
I jokinly made that post from above, and you reacted as I thought you would.. funny..
Imphared - Question for you on your parse and opinion on where we fit for DPS and for our pets. At what point in the game (content) do you see us fitting into the dps role that you parsed? You are by far a midline beast, my guess would be you fit in the top 2%. Where do the rest of use fit? I think most beasts fit in the midline for gear and dps, do our pets still hold up for being what you say they are and should be?
my magelo is a bit out of date but is reasonable close (78 now and more AA)
I'm not inphared, but will somewhat reply anyways.
Pets - pets hold up even better at lower end content than higher imo. Lesser AEs, lower AE ramp, etc,.... We may not have the gigantic manapool to be able to keep them up, but their relative strength is greater. We'll see how pet foci scale this expansion, however...I've seen the stats on it, but haven't seen any pop up on Lucy yet, nor have I spoken w/ people equipping them in beta. The system seems much more systematic and thought out (but sounds a bit lacking still /shrug).
As far as overall dps, I think we're doing well against most classes at any level of content (relative to the dry period of omens /don at least). Our group dps is good if you keep both poison nukes, BatM, and some cold nukes loaded (agro's big though), esp. w/ ooc regen. Finally, good martial weapons are available even in the bazaar (best I've seen was 28/19 I think, at last 26/20), w/ 35% foci and better pet foci around. More mod2s are available overall, too. Compare to berzerkers..the only bazaarable weapons I've seen there are very similar ratio to their epic 1.5s.
You are apparently doing at least a little bit of raiding at anguish level - any dedicated raider at that level can max out accuracy and avoidance, and do a good job with their other foci. From there, weaponry gets better, and our dps starts to mount. Frankly, from anguish through Deathknell, dps does not increase much. TSS isn't necessarily a big help, as weapon drops are uncommon.
So, between spells and discs, I don't think there's any progression point now where a beastlord can't do very respectable dps if well geared/AAs for the content. Are we wizards? No...but, we're not being outdpsed by warriors right and left now.
Quote from: Hanelce on November 21, 2007, 05:47:15 PMI honestly don't care how much evidence you bring to the table. Its the condescending tone of your posts, that is nicely displayed in the quote.
If you're going to take pot shots at me, I'm not going to let them fly.
Quote from: Hanelce on November 21, 2007, 05:47:15 PMYou may be Inphared, from Triality - but honestly, I see you as just another person that pays to play a game. You are no more, no less. You may have a bit more knowledge of the game, but you certainly don't show it with your snide comments.
If you think I'm trying to impose myself as this amazing god of a player, you are severely mistaken.
Quote from: Hanelce on November 21, 2007, 05:47:15 PMI jokinly made that post from above, and you reacted as I thought you would.. funny..
You weren't joking. You were cracking at me because I replied to a post with evidence contradicting it. Nice try.
Quote from: Juksh on November 21, 2007, 07:17:28 PM
At what point in the game (content) do you see us fitting into the dps role that you parsed? You are by far a midline beast, my guess would be you fit in the top 2%. Where do the rest of use fit? I think most beasts fit in the midline for gear and dps, do our pets still hold up for being what you say they are and should be?
Khauruk summed a lot of it very well, and here's my take.
I see us fitting into that role relatively quickly. If you're using bazaar weapons against a ranger in DoN weapons there's obviously going to be a gap, but we are unique in that we get just as much benefit from spell/melee focii as rangers do, yet we also have our pet. Unfortunately our pet is not a significant portion of our DPS (it only gets worse as we get better, I'd say my own pet is maybe 20% of my DPS, if that.), but it helps to have the AA's to maximize his DPS. Flurry are the big ones. It's all about how you play and how effectively you utilize what you've got. Having all the proper focii makes a big difference.