The Beastlords' Den

I've heard monks saying, that 1200 ac is some kind of soft cap for them. I'm wondering if bsts got the same cap? I kind of doubt that we have, since 1200 ac vs. 1600 ac feels like a rather big difference, just my gut feeling though and no parses to back that up.

-Raz

Soft cap based on what you are killing.  Seen parses at the 2k+ range that still showed a nice change in damage.  Lots of bst hit ac caps around 1k-1200 though because it takes a lot of raiding to get over that for most.  Againist old world stuff that's plenty.  More still helps in spots though.

Up to and including most of PoP the softcap seems to be around the 1200 mark, in GoD however its way higher. It is not fully tested yet and i think it will be hard to do so, however there are rumours that the GoD softcap is around 1700 AC. Hitting the softcap doesnt mean you wont get more out of a higher ac, just the results in reduced damage/ac will be much smaller.

Take note that high agility will raise your AC as well.  So if you have neglected this stat, might want to invest some in it.  If regular buffed and your not reaching 200 agi I would work on it.

I have noticed a big difference in tanking ability due to the high agility I have.

For 2 reasons.  1st is high agility so I dodge hits more frequently. 2nd high agility gives me a boost in AC.

I'll try to do some calculations with / without ac buffs and removing gear that has agility built in.

Think Coprolith already did those AC tests with agility.  Considering you'd have to tank the same mob for a really long time for the agility difference not to be swallowed up in statistical error, it's not a huge concern for many.  (100 Agi increase pre-255 equals about 3% more misses?)

While I grab agility when I can, I don't do so at the expense of other stats like hp.

On another note, are you guys saying 1200 buffed?

Yeah, sorry Dakat, but that "big difference in tanking ability" exists only in your mind. Firstly agility does nothing for dodging, just the miss ratio. Secondly, going from 75AGI to 200AGI will net you a mere 4% increase in avoidance, AGI above 200 does even less, maybe another % going from 200 to 305. The benefit is so small it takes a samplesize of 100k swings just to parse it out. During normal gameplay the statistical variance in your avoidance completely obscures it.

The AC increase from AGI you see in your listed AC is virtually meaningless. The listed AC is a composite number, the sum of your avoidance AC and your mitigation AC. AGI adds only to the avoidance AC but the benefit you get from it is much less then the amount of mitigation AC. If 2 characters both have 1100AC, but one has 75 AGI and the other has 305 AGI, then the person with 75 AGI has the best tanking ability because his mitigation AC is higher.

/hugs

QuoteAgility

This determines how often you get hit or missed by an attack and how much damage you take when you get hit.  It also affects how quickly you learn defensive skills.  Since you will take less damage and have a better chance of not having your spells disrupted if you have a higher amount of agility, this is useful for both fighters and magic users.  

off of kazams

This is often debatable between every class out there of its usefulness. I alone think it is recommended. My unbuffed agility is 203.

Things I seem to notice once above 200:  Hit less often. Hit for less overall. Increased Armor Class.  Swing faster w/o haste item/spell.  It may be me, but after 4+ years in game, I go with what I know and not what someone else feels.

Dakat, this subject was pounded into the ground a couple monts ago.  Trust what people have proven via parsing over what you feel.

Yah, its real easy to let the RNG fool you into believing whatever you want to believe in, 4+ years of EQ exp or no. Parsed data is the only objective measure of a stat.
I can't for the life of me understand why people are so zealous about the way they feel about agi. Its a melee stat so it must be important? It isnt.

Im not going to beat this dead horse again. Believe whatever you want to believe, but dont go about proclaiming how wonderful AGI is when there's hard data that says its not. Period.

Now let it die or this thread will end up in Rants again.

monks, our parent class are very anal post nerf and parse everything constantly in regards to their offensive and defensive abilities, so there is a lot of data out there on how functions of EQ work.

Yes, get agi "above 200", over the long run agi over 200 helps your avoidance "minorly" giving you a few percent more avoidance type defensive maneuvers.  once your 200+ in any stat unbuffed or self buffed i wouldnt worry about them very much as you reach a point of diminishing returns.


only thing anyone should really worry abour is getting to 305 sta, hp from sta is affected by some aa's and towards the top increases in raw hp arent major but are somehting physically you can see on your character and if for no other reason thereby worthwhile.   much of everything else as we see in this thread can still be the matter of speculation.

"It may be me, but after 4+ years in game, I go with what I know and not what someone else feels."

"Things I seem to notice once above 200"

It's one thing to go with what you feel, but it crosses a line when you post here or in response to someone asking a question.  You are more than welcome to give your opinion and stuff, but the simple fact is you give wrong information quite a bit.  This has been parsed by a lot of people and simply put the changes are very minor.  You say you'll go with what you know, yet say yourself you "seem to notice".  The RNG, how our brain works and many other factors make in game observations very sketchy.  Somethings are obvious and you can have a "feel" for them.  That "feel" can then be backed up through tests and parsing and data.  In this case the parsing and data has consistantly shown very minor results.  As always play your char how you want and do what you want.  However, everytime you post "get agi up" I guarantee you that atleast a couple people will be right behind you pointing out that it's really minor hehe.

http://p201.ezboard.com/fmonklybusiness43508frm2.showMessage?topicID=1259.topic

Monk AC soft cap against Valorian Guard in Halls of Honor is around 1300. Detailed parse in that post with every class.

QuoteI don't think the mitigation numbers I provided give an accurate picture in the VERY large differences in mitigation across the classes.

Quote from the very guy who made the Parce.

Also, you can't compare a parce of a monk with a beast.  Monks were overpowering a while back and were nerfed quite a bit.

QuoteAlso, you can't compare a parce of a monk with a beast. Monks were overpowering a while back and were nerfed quite a bit.

Yes, you can. That parse pretty much shows that all 3 leather classes mitigate the same way. Monks used to be on a higher mitigation table, now they share the same mitigation table as the other two leather classes. Same goes for the chain classes. PAL, SK, BRD and CLR are also on the same mitigation table, WAR gets a bonus.
What little differences exist in mitigation between the classes in a particular armortype group can be ascribed to differences in defense skill cap.

- Mitigation is determined almost entirely by worn AC, with defense skill giving small differences between the classes.
- Avoidance is determined almost exclusively by the defensive skills (including d/p/r/b), with AGI having a marginal effect.

/hugs

Its obvious your trying to beat a dead horse with a stick here.  I don't recognise that guy as a source of Everquest. If Sony says so, then I'll beleave it.  

You can impress me with numbers all you want, it still will not convince me.

Uhhh...wow.

Do you not believe in physics because no god has come down to tell you in person that that's how it works?

Here's the thing dak.  I don't care if you are impressed, I don't care what you believe, all I care about is what you tell other people.  Play your char how you want and have fun with it.  However, you have been on a wrong information spree the past few days and I'm totally lost atm.

QuoteIf Sony says so, then I'll beleave it.

Then it will interest you to know that Absor himself at one time admitted that AGI doesnt have much effect.
Do you also believe that CHA is an important stat for paladins? It says so, right on the character creation screen, so it must be true then.

The salespitch description that SOE gave out on the effects of stats, which was subsequently copied by every major EQ website, is meaningless. The combat engine of EQ is governed by mathematical formulas, and from hard numbers you can derive what these formulas are. No amount of belief in stats or press releases are worth a damn.

Yeah I might be wrong about some things every now and then.  I get agitated when proven wrong. That's just me.  

Oh and to the other guy.  Yeah cha is important to a paladin if he/she is a puller.  As you should know cha affects the agro gained from a mob if your pacify is resisted.  The higher your cha the less likely your resisted pacify will bring that mob.

QuoteAs you should know cha affects the agro gained from a mob if your pacify is resisted. The higher your cha the less likely your resisted pacify will bring that mob.

And as you should know pacify works only on mobs up to L55. The only places where the Paladin lull line works is where you dont need it in the first place. The one bad pull per year difference makes CHA real important for a paladin.

It makes a difference if the paladin gets Divine intervention though cop :>

Very true, which is why warriors value CHA over AGI these days, since they get DI'ed far more frequently then pallies.

QuoteAlso, you can't compare a parce of a monk with a beast. Monks were overpowering a while back and were nerfed quite a bit.

If you genuinely believe THAT then:

1. you've obviously never played a monk.

2. you must think that Beastlord's are about to get mauled with the nerf stick big time (given BL's current relative power - if monks were 'overpowering' back then BL's now are boarding on exploitative).

3. I have a bridge to sell you. :)




Believe me currently BL's are way, WAY more powerful then pre-mitigation nerf monks (never mind post-mitigation nerf) EVER were, solo-wise, grouping-wise OR utility-wise.







(Note: I'm NOT advoacting a BL nerf or anything, why would I, I love the class and think BL's are about the most BALANCED class there is, however the nonsense spouted about pre-nerf monks is rediculous, especially frankly when it comes from a BL which can do anything and so much more than a pre-mitigation nerf monk ever could.)

Believe me currently BL's are way, WAY more powerful then pre-mitigation nerf monks (never mind post-mitigation nerf) EVER were, solo-wise, grouping-wise OR utility-wise.
This is flat bull spread by extremely bitter monks.

Beastlords are dead middle of the pack in both DPS and tanking (Steel Warrior recently did tons of parsing that show that Beastlords beat only Priests and Int casters for tanking), and have no crowd control whatsoever.

Compare that to monks at the time who were comparable to every other DPS class for damage, and tanked amazingly well.  Hell, monks still tank way better than Beastlords, and that's after as big a nerf as it was.

The rest is in the imagination, as you are comparing Level 65 Beastlords with today's gear vs. level 60 monks in the gear of the day and saying BSTs today are stronger.  Well, yeah.  So is every other classes...5 levels and multiple expansions of gear will do that.

Again I guess you've never actually played one.

I've played both, I've no illusions.

Monk's were never 'overpowered', they just had certain soft cap issue with uber gear.

Really BL>>>Monk in every way (this would be WHY there are now 1,000,000 BL's per server and 3 monks :)).

The only place a monk catches up is once time equiped.

Time to move this thread to the rants section, crazy disgruntled monk on the loose.

I guess Coprolith is right.

Oh, and dont feed the troll.

Yep.  Reminds me of Schezar.  Got to love misinformation spread as fact to make your case stronger.

Here's a hint Goretzu:  I have a Monk, I do know what I'm talking about.

By the way Goretzu, no where did I say the Monk nerf was justified.  That still doesn't mean I agree BLs are better now relatively than monks were then relatively.

Your example is fun and all but typically guilds have 2-3x as many monks as Beastlords.

Lastly, if you are going to argue, *ARGUE*.  Nuh-uh has never been a valid argument past the age of about 8.

It is funny that Absor said that AGI means nothing considering every EP item for a Beastlord has AGI on it and those items were created AFTER he made the statement.

Seems kind of funny that they made the effort to get our AGI stat capped and it has no effect.

Um yeah okay.

People can believe whatever they want and quote parsings until they are blue in the face.

If Sony believed that AGI meant nothing then why did they put it on our EP gear then? Remember they ackowledged that it was useless well before they created the armor.

Does that make sense?

Good thing we aren't talking about the real world here lol.

Nox

Just for info, time equipment didnt had AGI on it after release and quite some time later. That got changed because some players wanted to max all stats and whined about the loss of AGI on this type of equipment. Now it is very easy to max AGI again, just because enough whined (which shows that whining helps, yet again).

Quote from: CoprolithTime to move this thread to the rants section, crazy disgruntled monk on the loose.

Hmm... so it's ok to post nonsense agbout monks, just not to refute it?

What EXACTLY did I say that was 'crazy'?

I'm kinda interested to know.

Quote from: DummkopfI guess Coprolith is right.

Oh, and dont feed the troll.

Lol ok now I'm 'crazy' AND a 'troll'


Yet NO ONE has actually refuted what I said in an empirical way.

My this is SUCH a freindly place, I think I can see why the OTHER board is regaining it's popularity.

Quote from: TerjynPovarYep.  Reminds me of Schezar.  Got to love misinformation spread as fact to make your case stronger.

Now the IRONY in THAT statement you could build a BATTLESHIP with. :) :) :)

Exactly WHAT 'misinformation' have I spread.

Tell me ONE thing that I've said that is WRONG.

Please.

QuoteHere's a hint Goretzu:  I have a Monk, I do know what I'm talking about.

Yet you think a monk can:

Solo better than a BL?
Can get a group more easily that a BL?
Has more utility than a BL?
Is more balanced than a BL?

As I said there's a REASON the BL population has soared and the Monk population has plummeted.

I simply don't understand the EXTREME HOSTILITY I'm getting over the issue here.

QuoteBy the way Goretzu, no where did I say the Monk nerf was justified.  That still doesn't mean I agree BLs are better now relatively than monks were then relatively.

Again WHAT can a monk solo that a BL cannot?
A Uber twinked monk solo's like a normally equiped BL from L1-50.
From 50-60 a monks solo power NOSEDIVES, a BL's remains strong.
Post 60 it's pretty much impossible to solo a monk in a viable manner, the same cannot be said for a BL.

So solo BL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Monk.


Grouping, in your group and you had the choice of a BL or a Monk would you EVER take the monk over a BL (unless it was in on of the 1% of situation where monk FD pulling is actully better than other class pulling these days)?
Exactly you wouldn't.

If you already had a monk and a BL in the group and one slot free and there was a choice of Monk or BL what would you pick?

Exactly again BL all the way.

What about a group of all monks (and one healer) and all BL's (and one healer), which is going to be more effective?
Right again. :) BL!

So grouping BL>>>>>Monks.



Even in Raiding most of the pulls can be done without a monk if needed, in fact I know of a couple of guilds that have lost their monks and haven't bothered to replace them.

But usually they'll want 1 or 2 monks.
But then they'll want 1 or 2 BL's as well.

So Raiding Monks=BL's.


But in GENERAL BL's>>>Monks these days.

QuoteYour example is fun and all but typically guilds have 2-3x as many monks as Beastlords.

Well I know of several that have lost all their monks and have NEVER bothered to replace them and have got along fine without them.

Also many monks were playing there toon for 4 years before the mitigation nerf and PoP issues of 18 months ago and many are loath to give up a toon they care so much about and have put so much time into.


However if you look on the newer post-mitigation nerf servers monks are a rare breed indeed.

BL's on the other hand are one of the most populous classes on ALL servers.

BL's are balance monks are not.

QuoteLastly, if you are going to argue, *ARGUE*.  Nuh-uh has never been a valid argument past the age of about 8.

What this post good enough for you?

I look forward to seeing your counter argument as to how monks are SO much BETTER and so much more WANTED than BL's at soloing, grouping and raiding....



Also I'll leave you with this thought:

Why is it that on the SoE balance boards BL have a few issues, basically weapon caps, pet shrink and a couple of AA issues.
Monk have at least 10 core game mechnic issues that need to be fixed in their favour.

Just go look at THOSE board and you'll soon see the difference between a balanced class and a non-balanced one.


And as I said I look forward to YOUR thoughts on how Monks are better than BL's in the current game. :)

Dunno what all the fuss is about. Everquest is dead, everyones playing Twister again. Keep up guys, sheesh.

Better back up my statement.

I have proved, over a three month period, like, ages ago now, people are cancelling there accounts by the dozen in favor of Twister. It's telling that guild's such as AL, Triton and FoH have publicly stated their allegiance for this game.

Quote from: FurorHAY GUYS, HASBRO PWNS. OH BY THE WAY, EVERYONE LOOKS LIKE A WOMANS DIRTY BIT

Quote from: ThottMonks and Bst's have been broken for too long. Follow me, minions, to the land of light limb injury

It's kind of telling that if these two, who have played EQ since beta, and were at the forefront of the bug testing scene have quit.

There's Twister guilds popping up everywhere. Hasbro have been holding "Best of the Best" tournaments for ages. The EverQuest gaming community are only now waking up to this fact. TM's (Twister Masters) are hand picked by Hasbro for their skill and aptitude at this game. Regular staff training in abrasions, sprains and mat burns ensure the safety of the casual player, and more hardcore end game equipped guild's are looked after.

There are competitions where the winner wins First aid kits and bandages. Magelo have set up 'Player Profiles' that detail items worn by fans. Sweatbands, sensible pants and respirators are common place, and Allakazam have a searchable database detailing the more common loot, rated by "stretchosity" and "durability". Look at what one of the scenes upcoming stars has probably said -

Quote from: LorathirHAHA, CHECK ME STYLEZ DOT ORG, AHL FUGGIN PWN JOO PUNKS, NA SPIN DAT WHEEL FAT ARSE

So why are we arguing here. There's a Twister Lan party near you somewhere. Quit the tribe, join the clan.

hahaha that was funny Lorathir.

But I've heard there's a big nerf happening to Twister soon. Some women apparently have been complaining that men with their lack of breasts and differently shaped pelvis have an unfair advantage, and are demanding that all men have to wear 2 sacks of sand on their torso and two bricks in their pants pockets.

Well i say, Nerf wimmin! Distracting me with their wily ways during gameplay, make em wear Anoraks or ankle length wooly vests and ski hats.

This thread *IS* just feeding a troll in my opinion.

To me, it looks like a monk is here just trying to stir up trouble. People have opinions, they differ. People can makeup or twist information to suit their own agendas.

If you want to play a monk, fine, play a monk. If you want to play a beastlord, fine. Play both? Sure.

Try and get one of them nerfed because in your own words "BL's are balance monks are not." /boggle

Becaue we're balanced, we need to be nerfed and share in the unbalanced part of EQ? Most of us have played other classes and moved to the beastlord, so we've done our time being an unbalanced class and are happy now.

Guess it's a case that if one class if happy, the rest of them have to bash on them and get them nerfed so they can share in the grumbling and angry mob?

mmmm, ski hats /drool !!!

Yes, I'll have to agree with you there Cop. Eddie "Lithe" Laroo, 57 (twice world champion, once inter state finalist and member of the "Bent Elbow All Stars") told me there's trouble brewing at the Twister Diet Camp, precisely for the reasons you've stated.

Right now, the Twister community is in *slight* disarray. Constantly challenged by the Monopoly faithfull, we have seen trouble spill over to our respective online boards.

Quote from: Go_To_JailIf I ever see anyone of you Twister fags in my hood, joo gonna git a kickin, no sh*t

And this bit of spittle shooting prattle from the "Buckaroo" boards -

Quote from: Real_men_use_a_bucketI swear, If anyone of my friends said "Let's have a Twister party Dave", I'll kick his arse so hard he'll think I shoved my plastic donkey up it

However, we're sure we will endure. Hasbro has some exciting expansions planned -

"Twister - Time to PWN." It's basically a PvP version of the game we all know and love. Combatants, as well as positioning themselves into posistions a sexual athelete would be proud of, can now take swings at each other.

"Twister - WTF OMG." Hasbro has painted all the spots out. It's a free for all grope fest.

"Twister - OOWch" Hasbro has raised the amount of spots on the mat! New Lore - "There's a dragon that's decided to make an army for no plausible reason. Only YOU can stop him, as long as you bring 70 other people. The only way of doing this is to play Twister. Doing so will save the world. Again. For, oh, say, 6 months." (Ages 7-10 on that one)

The future's bright. The future's Twister!

Quote"Twister - OOWch" Hasbro has raised the amount of spots on the mat!

Bah, yet another expansion aimed at the elitist uber twisters. Well I for one im not buying it, it has little to nothing to offer for the casual twister. Im having enough trouble preventing crotch rupture as it is.

And why oh why haven't they fixed left-handed twisting on the northern hemisphere yet? We've been asking for this fix for months now.

HASBRO CS SUXXORZ!

Quote from: JaerenThis thread *IS* just feeding a troll in my opinion.

To me, it looks like a monk is here just trying to stir up trouble. People have opinions, they differ. People can makeup or twist information to suit their own agendas.

If you want to play a monk, fine, play a monk. If you want to play a beastlord, fine. Play both? Sure.

Try and get one of them nerfed because in your own words "BL's are balance monks are not." /boggle
Becaue we're balanced, we need to be nerfed and share in the unbalanced part of EQ? Most of us have played other classes and moved to the beastlord, so we've done our time being an unbalanced class and are happy now.

Guess it's a case that if one class if happy, the rest of them have to bash on them and get them nerfed so they can share in the grumbling and angry mob?

Now you see IMO THAT is trolling (and from a mod no less :().

1. I play a BL as a main and have NO interest in seeing them nerfed (especially maulled in the way monks were).

2. I NEVER said Beastlord's should be nerfed (please READ what I actually SAID).  

I only said that IF he thought pre-mitigation nerf monks were 'overpowered' then he must live in fear of the nerf bat as comparatively (to pre-nerf monks) BL's are almost exploitative.
I then got jumped on and called 'crazy' and a 'Troll' (which I'm not I'm an Ogre :)).


BL's are balanced.
Monks are not.

I'd say that means monks need some buffing, but for some reason the RAMPANT PARANOIA around here seems to think that means BL's should be nerfed.  :shock:


I would have thought people that PLAYED BL's from the start would understand what it IS to play a class with genuine issues, but I guess not, or they have forgotten.


If you think otherwise, please go start up a monk and experience their current 'uberness'. :)

Edit: Bah, after checking that "other" beastlord place, I find that Goretzu likes beating dead horses and can find theads of him arguing this all the way back to Nov there. You seem to just want to stir up trouble, this thread is going no where.

Edit2: Thanks for the flame in my inbox Goretzu, really appreciated it. You want to continue to bitch and whine about this topic which you have done so since Nov 2003 on the old board, fine. You say I was childish to lock the topic, you've lost respect blah, blah, blah. I'm a moderator, my job is to keep track of threads, this one was going nowhere. The topic is now unlocked, ramble on and BS your way to whatever point, if there is one.

Besides Goretzu, most of the thread wasn't dealing with you, don't feel so important to think this was all about you ;)

Warning to everyone else: Don't feed the trolls, just makes them more hungry and produce more bullshit

Well I'm sorry if you took it as a flame it was just my opinion.


As I said I never said I thought BL's needed to be nerfed, although everyone seems to read it as I did.  :?


I said it was IMO childish to personally attack me then lock it.

But you were a big enough person to unlock it so, fair enough, thank you (and you have my respect for that).

I still don't understand exactly WHY I've been castigated for simply pointing out the truth (IMO) that monks are lacking, but as I seem to be the ONLY one that thinks so I guess I'll just let it be. :)

This is some crazy fun with fonts!

LOL Coprolith  :lol: