Over the next few days a lot is going to be happening on the boards, so please keep an eye on stickies/new threads/parese results/etc. It's been hella rough after TSS launch, but I've finally started compiling all the data and have some time to finally do something with it. Right now most beastlords feel our dps is "ok(ish)", but there is no doubt our utility has taken tons of hits and remains in question. With that in mind I'd like to get some community feedback on a few things before I move ahead with them. So....
What do people think about a *single target* Paragon? Right now one of the biggest issues with paragon is that it's clearly balanced as a MGB'able type of ability. If we could get a single target version there's no doubt it would not only be more powerful, but it would also give us a better chance to get that full return on potential(unlike a MGB'd paragon that lots block/don't use currently).
It'd be nice if a % based single target were possible, but that makes for weak to no upgrades down the road, however, the initial scaling would be great and prevent the major beastlord problem of "falling off". *shrugs*
So...%? Numbers? Refresh? Hate the idea? Let me know. Please stay on point and talk it up. 8)
Single target is one I hadn't thought of. I like the idea of a group buff, that's /tgbable, but not mgbable. From reading dev things, they seem incredibly wary of %age based anything nowadays...and we can possibly get the changes "backdated" as it were to perfection.
My idea from EQLive forums:
Paragon - as is.
Perfection and Aura - not MGB-able, much higher return (works out to be app. maybe 20-25% of oow/tss attainable manapools, respectively?)
Single target paragon is BS imo. If the real paragon scaled correctly in the first place we wouldnt be needing to look at a sticking plaster to fix it.
And I dont think our DPS is ok(ish), on any mob with AE's and especially AE ramp we are severly lacking, this accounts for at least 75% of all raid mobs. Our burst DPS on non AE ramp and reasonable AE's is OK though.
You know this would have the potential to be a decent conversation if we ever got any feedback. In other words, if it was an actual conversation with discussion coming from both sides. We get nothing from the other side in conversations like this and now we are being asked to accept, maybe even endorse a relatively severe reduction of our utility compared to where we were before? Because we haven't been told anything from the other side, then I don't see any reason to accept or endorse this loss of power. IF the devs had or would come out and explain their thinking, then we could have a discussion. But we get nothing and it's troll shit. Let's pretend a dev came forward and said something about how they thought paragon was over powering, and they explained their thinking and their goals and all the other aspects of our class that we think are important. Not everything has to be laid out, the argument has to be made that paragon was somehow out of whack before I will accept on principle the reduction that we have received. Some argument has to be made before I will endorse this kind of neutering of our potential. Once we set the precedent of endorsing a reduction of our power, then what will be next?
I'm not sure what to think about it. If they are "balancing" it over it being mgb'able, i'm quite perturbed, honestly. It doesn't do that much, even raid wide, no matter what the devs or other players who don't really pay attention to it may think.
I find myself rarely, if ever, casting it nowadays, mgb-style, preferring to keep my mgb for SE at the beginning of the night. There are some encounters where I'll hit it single on a group with high healer concentration.
If the change is to remove the mgb'ability of the para line or of perfection+, then it damn well better be /tgb'able, else I want a refund of them all, bcs I will rarely, if ever, get put into tank groups that have the healers needing the mana infusions.
i'd prefer single group paragon. Or, how about one of each?
1 version thats weak sauce and can be massed, 1 version thats moderately powerful and /tgbable only, and 1 single target thats super powerful. All on the same timer of course.
Keep in mind its NOT LOSING ANYTHING. We already have a bag full of crap. You really don't want to trade a bag full of crap for a small amount of something useful? ~
QuoteRight now one of the biggest issues with paragon is that it's clearly balanced as a MGB'able type of ability.
Tastian,
Could you explain what you mean by that? Balanced against what? I see it totally opposite. It's completely unbalanced right now compared to what it was in the PoP era. That standard has been set and unchanged. Why do we accept the reduction now? Is this just a simple situation that we aren't going to get what we want so we might as well be happy with something/anything? Has that been said? Has it been explained?
Devs balance the ability around its maximum possible usefulness. E.G. when its hitting 72 people.
They reason (and i disagree) that making the ability scale properly for a single group would unbalance it when it was massed and they'd rather us have a weaker ability thats only remotely balanced when you mass it, than a balanced ability thats "too powerful" when massed.
I like the idea of choices, mgb'able/group only/single target sounds good to me if they scale them in power appropiatly.
Yeah, abilities always have to be balanced with atleast some thought toward "best case scenario". In the case of paragon I doubt it's "balanced" around 71 wizards and 1 beastlord, but it clearly isn't balanced around just the solo beastlord(and potentially their warder).
Keep in mind also, that this isn't talking about taking paragon and making it single target, but what about having both the current paragon line *AND* a single target "paragon'esqe" type of ability.
Paragon has set idle for awhile, and with out of combat regen things get even "meh'r". A single target or even TGB, but not MGB'able, version or similiar ability might be an option to give beastlords back a bit of utility. *shrugs*
Like I said, it's something to chatter about and see. I'm still pushing for fero changes and numerous other things, but there are a few less talked about options that I'd like to see where people stand.
I would love to see a self/pet only version (as about the only time I really use it is solo while pulling or to boost mana/hp before countdown timer pops.) A stronger than mgb but not as strong as self/pet would also be a superb idea, again, because when I group they can use it to shorten times between pulls. I have only used the mgb version in GH a few times, and that is mostly because there were a few guildies who were kind enough to buff me while I was grouped with them, and PoS in GH gives uber regen even standing.
The single target aura/paragon aa would be interesting but imo aura atm and every paragon aa before it and after paragon has been lacking and should at least be fixed. Here is why.
I had a nice conversation with some of my guild mates and came up with this little bit of info to add to haka's great post about aura too.
To make a good argument we have to consider the average cost of spells at the 75th range verses the 60th, and howthe increase between the the two levels and here best spells. Let me show you what i mean. For analusis purpos's i will use the wizy spells by popular demand from my guild's wizys these are the two most used spells for best dps/mana useg for a wiz at both levels.
Level 75 Sothgar's Flame Rk2.
1024 mana for 5089 damage
level 60 Garrison's Superior Sundering
480 mana for 2,000 damage
take a look at the damage potential then of the average mana pools usen hak's data
10,316 mana pool = 10.46 casts of sothgar for 51.254 damage
3,050 mana pool = 7 casts of GSS for 14,000 damage
adding in the paragon/aura to the both
11,156 mana = 11.31 casts of sothgar for 55,419
3,530 mana = 7.35 casts for 14,700
the the gains from the two aura/paragon
Aura of spirit = 140 mana per tick for 6 ticks, or 840 mana
paragon = 80 mana a tick for 6 ticks, or 480 mana
Now usen this info plugin in the numbers you gain 1 full cast of the lvl 60 GSS spell during that time useing paragon but when a beast use's aura at lvl 75 curently a wiz would only gain mana for about 0.85 cast's of sothgar's. Doawngrade anyone? this is not even showing the aa spent for the amount gained ether but that is another story, but if they see this and revamp the line to be more inline i dont think anyone would mind the aa we have allready spent on it when it was going down hill lol.
I can not take credit for this info btw all this was done by members of my guild im just bringing it to the forum for all to see and hopfuly give tast some info to bring to the peaple that need to see it.
A single group, paragon type spell/ability that's TGB'able and has mana/hitpoint and endurance regen. It would add some raid utility to us and give us some flexibilty with our rake disc. At least it would help get that warrior back on his feet after he dies and has to wait for the rez affects to fade before the ooc endurance regen kicks in.
First off, I appreciate you throwing out things to discuss Tast, gives us some hope that ppl are listening.
Personally I would only like the idea of single target Paragon if it provides 50% or more mana (ie 6k). In a raid, even our weak sauce Aura gives out 6500 mana if theres 8 clerics present. Then you'd have the issue of figuring out who to hit else risk wasting some of the benefit on a cleric who's at 75% already. It would pretty much make our MGB useless as well (except for SA which can be done by 1 BL). In group and solo, a 6k single target mana blast would be a nice boost over our current Aura.
Since I'm all about raid utility, I'd have to No vote it if it's under 6k/50% but wouldn't be upset if it did get approved. I just don't see this being an important utility that will make BL more desirable on raids.
About a year ago you mentioned the idea of a /pet shield utility, the ability of our warder to guard another character. Seemed like a great idea, did that get pitched to developers?
who cares about MGB? It *Should* be almost exclusively used for buffs since it was intended for that purpose anyway
Good question Tastian but I pass on single target pos.
Though the return to aa isnt great on the current form, it is a utility that keeps increases incrementally. (it all adds up)
There are much better things I think that could be done to give us utility that a raid would use and make more than 1 beastlord desired for more than just dps.
Conclusion: I dont want to see it changed to a single target version.
"Conclusion: I dont want to see it changed to a single target version."
Again, we aren't talking about having paragon changed to single target. We are talking about a new ability that could potentially be group or maybe single target. This isn't changing paragon, it isn't giving anything up, it's a question of what might we reasonably gain to help with our faded utility.
It sounds fine to me.
Don't druids already have an aa ability that turns sotg into a larger, single-target heal? There seems to be precedent.
i think adding a single target version would be ok, but itd be alot better if it was in conjunction with a fix to paragon to make it actually worthwhile as well.
QuoteWe are talking about a new ability that could potentially be group or maybe single target. This isn't changing paragon, it isn't giving anything up, it's a question of what might we reasonably gain to help with our faded utility.
They can't be on the same timer then either.
It would probably be on same timer as paragon/aura, would most likely be like druids spirit of the grove and convergence of spirits, one is MGB'able and low-ish hot, other is single target with big direct heal and good size hot heal and on same timer. I woudln't mind it being on same timer, would be a bit much to hit TGB'able big mana regen on group of casters then follow it up with MGB paragon for more mana to everyone. I wouldn't mind having a group only bigger paragon, would be much for useful to me then aura is atm.
If we get a new single Paragon, then it makes the other one totally obsolete, its not giving us a new tool at all. Who is going to use MGB paragon when there is a considerably better ability.
The only reason I would go for this is for solo purposes. During raids I am usualy far too busy to try to figure out who to throw a single cast on unless its for the MT. He would normally be receiving serious continual healing anyway so it wouldnt realy enter into the equation as anything important. I would much rather they fixed the para/perf/aura issue. I do NOT beleive that it is scaled correctly and even my guilds lower mana-pooled people barely notice anything outside of the post wipe period.
If this became a single cast about the only time I would use it is in combat for a boost and some extra healing. I have a 10.5k mana pool. In combat I rarely get below 50% mana and that is chain casting our werwolf and 2 nukes so what use would the extra man do for us. We have little enough usage for the mana we have once our warders are summonned and buffed. I rarely slow in raids anymore, dont incapacitate, I do keep fero on as many rogues/Bez as I can as they do find a difference with it on.
Please dont let them make us sound like we have gained another huge step upwards when all they have done is rearrange the retarded level of benefit from this chain of abilities into another retrograded 'benefit'
QuoteI do keep fero on as many rogues/Bez as I can as they do find a difference with it on.
That's all in their mind.
I like the idea of making it non-mgbable but tgbable group version with a significant upgrade to it. Would add some utility and make it more valuable in solo/group situations as well.
idea:
Paragon: current
Perfection: 4x current, no mgb, yes tgb
Aura: 10x current, single target
Adds utility by giving a choice of using the best tool for your situation.
thoughts?
I like the idea of tgbable, non MGB. Would also like to see it as instant cast. My Bst tanks a good portion of the time. Paragon is usually something I don't do mid fight.
Quote from: hakaaba on November 22, 2006, 05:50:08 PM
idea:
Paragon: current
Perfection: 4x current, no mgb, yes tgb
Aura: 10x current, single target
Adds utility by giving a choice of using the best tool for your situation.
thoughts?
As I said in other thread, let paragon scale with AA investments in Perfection and Aura. Might be somewhat close.
A single target with a major boost would be great. However I would still like to see an endurance regen added.
Also, I really do like that it shows up in the short term buff window now.
Kordana
personally i do use paragoon whenever it pops up during groups raids etc. I also use mgb para on raids quite a bit. Having and extra paragoon would be great, i can see no downside to this at all. The XXXX mana/hp regen ability would have to be significally larger hp/mana gains if it wasn't mgbable and on the same timer, if it wasn't then it could be alot smaller. I'm really not where what your trien to get at with adding a new ability like this, are we the new necro's now? Making paragoon scale properly > adding this new ability imo.
QuoteHaving and extra paragoon would be great, i can see no downside to this at all.
You answered your own question.
QuoteMaking paragoon scale properly > adding this new ability imo.
Adding this new ability, that will be on the same timer as paragon simply gives them an excuse to ignore the bazillion AA we have spent to get our currently crappy skill. What will the chances be then that any scaleing will ever be done? This fits Sony's MO to a T. Remember double experience? Always pointing to something else so the masses won't pay attention to their previous shortcomings.
Given that paragon hasn't scaled properly, how long will it be before this new skill doesn't scale also? What are we averaging? 2 expansions a year? This time next year and this new skill will be all but worthless and we will have wasted another billion AA for the privelage.
Single target.. not too fond of that idea.
However.. removing it's ability to be MGB'd would be acceptable, since back when we first were gifted with Paragon, that wasn't possible. As long as /tgb still works.
Removing the MGB'able flag and trippling (at the least) the effects would be a decent tradeoff.
Single target, not interested I agree in that a year it will be broken.
Group non-mgb not overly interested in that either same as above.
I would like my current one upgraded/fixed, unlike most I still use it on raids. Mostly raids we are attempting and havent won yet or only won once but some raids also like daosheen when we are light on numbers and healers poppinging near the end can make the difference.
Paragon: current <----this needs a huge upgrade before I bother casting it mgb to a raid whose doing demiplane/deathknell and TSS progression
Perfection: 4x current, no mgb, yes tgb <---if with tgb it would allow it to cast on the group the bst is in and a 2nd group the bst has targeted, then....mayyybe i'd use it..hehe
Aura: 10x current, single target <-----single target would suck...make it group only better..the good thing about that is we'd be a mana battery for wizzys and mages if they stuck us in a group with them or with clerics and the MT...the bad thing is you'd miss out on being in a shammy/rogue/ranger/zerker group and miss out on dps benefits from shammy panther/champ.
They look like interesting ideas, but I can tell you now that I most likely wouldn't use them at all in raids except the last one. My raiding has me use ALOT of AoS as a HOT for hps and mana mostly for healers and nukers...I agree i'd love to see END regen added mostly for warriors and other melee due to how much End they use
I do agree thou, that this awesome utility has been getting left behind and now with OOCR it sucks to not be able to cast it after a wipe/recovery b/c everyone is just sitting and in 2mins or less they are FM/FHP/F END.
I'm not even remotely interested in paragon at all. a single target on 15min timer is really of no use to me on a raid -- thats my opinion anyway, when clerics or whoever start going OOM i'm sure even an upgraded single target paragon STILL isnt gonna do much for them. (would still like to see it as an instant cast as well anyway)
personally i'd like to get away from the whole paragon thing and focus on the fero line. EQ allready has 3 mana batteries, necro's, bards, and mod rods -- let them keep the job.
othern then avatar/champion were the only class with a large atk boosting buff. I'd like to see that buff actually worth its weight in mana.
Single target paragon could be really nice if it was, say, 10k mana, given to a wizard. They could do some really nice things w/ that.....
well ... i use my mgb paragon on several raids and would like to be
able to still use it ... an upgrade would be a nice bonus, otherwise
leave it alone. more mana and a raid wide hot is always welcome,
no matter the target ... we have used a paragon rotation to over
come some targets till we had the raid force geared up better.
5 beast using an mgb'ed paragon can make a big difference on long fights. imho.
Leave it as a MGB Group buff . Add Endurance , raise HP/Mana regen on it so that it actually makes sense and is a benefit like it is supposed to be .
Echoing the last two posters here...hehehe..especially Petts, his exact situation is what I have always used AoS or old Paragon/Purrfection for, so I really am all for KEEPING this ability.
Quote from: Gxser
Leave it as a MGB Group buff . Add Endurance , raise HP/Mana regen on it so that it actually makes sense and is a benefit like it is supposed to be .
As long as its MGBable it will never be the benefit that we think it should be. This is because the devs will base what they feel it should do with the thinking that its going to be on 54 people instead of the normal 6.
its sad but true :-(
Why not make it variable? This is just an idea and can be modified. These numbers are based off of Paragon of Spirit.
Max Potential (72 People)
HP Mana Ticks Total HP Total Mana Raid HP Raid Mana
200 80 6 1200 480 86400 34560
54 Person Raid (Most common raid size)
HP Mana Ticks Total HP Total Mana Raid HP Raid Mana
267 107 6 1600 640 86400 34560
18 Minimum People to make a raid
HP Mana Ticks Total HP Total Mana Raid HP Raid Mana
800 320 6 4800 1920 86400 34560
Ok I give up for now. I can't get the table to work. but I think you can see where the numbers should line up.
I don't think there's any mechanism in place to vary the efficacy of the buff based upon how many it's cast on.
Problems with your numbers:
72 person raid - ignore this, as almost nobody is raiding PoP and prior fulltime, and no raiding guild is going to be planning for more than 54. We shouldn't be gimping it unnecessarily...
Make the 18 person one MGBable, and I'd be happy.
/tgbable 7k mana at top end
Single target - 10k+ mana, maybe even more. You'd need to extend the timer on it though, for sure. I guess not such a big deal now w/ ooc regen and vet AAs now, though.....
We can't ignore the 72 person raid because that is what SOE is saying makes these types of MGBable AAs too powerful. They are looking at the Total Maximum Potential of the ability. That is why I put the 72 person raid in there.
Quote from: Sanois on February 10, 2007, 12:35:27 AM
We can't ignore the 72 person raid because that is what SOE is saying makes these types of MGBable AAs too powerful. They are looking at the Total Maximum Potential of the ability. That is why I put the 72 person raid in there.
We assume they are. They offered no real response to any queries I saw last beta.
Not to mention, if they are basing it off of 72 people, we need to convince them how it needs to be centered around the 54 or fewer person current content that exists.
Quote from: Tastian on November 17, 2006, 01:14:22 PM
What do people think about a *single target* Paragon? Right now one of the biggest issues with paragon is that it's clearly balanced as a MGB'able type of ability. If we could get a single target version there's no doubt it would not only be more powerful, but it would also give us a better chance to get that full return on potential(unlike a MGB'd paragon that lots block/don't use currently).
This is what I was basing that off of and somewhere in another post someone said that SoE had said that it was based off of the maximum potential of it being used as an MGB.
My numbers were just a rough suggestion and may be something to look into versus going to a single target Paragon. I for 1 have always liked Paragon. I have played a cleric and also played a beast. I know that the MGB of Paragon has saved many raids.
I should also mention that SoE has nurfed the cleric CR and the druid SoW AAs as well so Beastlords are not the only ones who have seen these get less and less useful. =/
Cleric CR? SoW? I'd call the MGB Heals pretty nice myself...perhaps not on a 25k tank, no...but w/ the number of classes that have them (cleric, druid, shammy, and BST sorta), they can add a very nice effect. The cleric iirc also has a very short recast timer. I don't play any of those classes regularly (just boxing others toons occasionally), so can't comment from an insider's view.
But, there is no partner to the Beastlord's mana over time AA. All the more reason it can't suck so bad...and needs to scale higher than it does now.
Ya know , there will be many ongoing discussion about this AoS/PoS problem . I have yet to hear any feedback . I am not sure if they are wanting us ot give them the answer without knowing why they have chosen to have the problem or what . So , here are a few suggestions to go with keeping it MGB like it needs to be . Single group I can imgine raids , Raid Leader says " Hey BST's your dps blows , sit in the caster or healer group and hit them every 15 mins with your gimp Para Buff , it's not like its an MGB or anything".
Suggestions :
1. Make it Critable : Base it on a 54 man Raid . It goes on for 6 ticks . Divide the raid by 6 = 9 . This means that out of 9 full groups of People only 6 groups would have a random chance to get a crit out of 6 ticks per person . There are 2 effects with the Paragon Line , give them both a chance to crit, Heals or Mana . Thats right I said it "Mana crit". Wouldn't that be Unique to a Bst ?
2. Make it Critable heal side only - Base it on the % of people on a raid . Whether its 75 , 54 , 48 , 42 , 36 , 24 , 18 who cares if the % is the same for all then the overall benefit will be no different than each other . Lets use 30% as an example . 54 man raid (reality says 72 outdated) thats basically 16 people out of a 54 man raid having a 1 in 6 chance of getting a heal crit . 18 man raid thats basically 4 people having the same thing . When you think of how gimp the line is the effect is the same regardless because of the content they are doing if they are in a 54 man raid to begin with.
3. Make Crits random for every class . I like random . :)
4. Add Endurance !!
5. Make the Paragon regen's based on the average level of the raid .
These are just suggestions with no scientific data to support any of it . Just common sense says if something is broke fix it . To fix it , you have to start somewhere . I don't care about other classes or their problems or what they got . Bad and Good for them . Get what ya can while ya can get it . I do however care greatly how the BST class gets affected over and over and over . This issue is one of many for us . If anything our gripes , suggestions , and no answer discussions have and do provide interesting reading for the devs and our community .
Bst out .
Quote from: Gxser on February 10, 2007, 05:16:06 PM
Just common sense says if something is broke fix it .
Good luck convincing the devs it's broken.
Paragon of spirit is perfectly balanced for being mgbd on a max sized (presumably 54) raid.
Unfortunately, it sucks the other 90% of the time because of this balance. The only way the devs will consider raising the numbers on paragon is if it were no longer mgbable, and then they would balance it around the best possible situation: it hitting exactly 7 people (/tgb on a full group), which would allow the ability to be considerably more powerful.
they have clearly stated this and it will not change, so either:
(1) people will have to accept at least one version of paragon that is not mgbable and is powerful
or
(2) were not gonna get a powerful paragon
this is why I wanna get away from paragon, sure keep what we got as is, I never suggested we get rid of it.. but no matter wich direction we go were gonna get boned in some way. just leave it as it is continue to upgrade it in future expansions as they allready have been, and lets focus on getting some other things fixed. I think they should rework the way attack is calculated and make it scale upwards properly instead of leveling out after 2300 atk or wherever the invisible gimp line is at nowadays.
WTS fero 2cp PST ! /em sadly waits in the corner for someone to take this buff seriously
Quote from: hakaaba on February 11, 2007, 06:09:15 AM
Paragon of spirit is perfectly balanced for being mgbd on a max sized (presumably 54) raid.
I completely disagree with this assertion . Pop yes , 65 GoD no , 70+ new zones and content absolutely not . TSS raids no way. There is nothing Perfect with Paragon and hasn't been remotely close since Pop only . Will the Devs admit to this never . They never admit to anything being screwed up period . Thats takes the luck out of the equation . It's common sense we need here . It also may be harder to correct the issue than we think then again maybe its easier . Simply put with all the guessing we are doing without the actual Designers/Progs input other than the standard working as intended answer this will never be touched and common sense will remain in hiding.
Gxser, i loved your suggestion for "mana criting" ooooo that gives me goose bumps and if I told my casters/healers in raid they'd just dance around yelling MORE BEASTLORDS on RAIDS PLS!
lol :)
Raid Leader says " Where the Heck are our Bst's !!!! get them here now !! " Now wouldnt that be a sight for sore eyes ?
lol
God i think that'd make me so damn happy to see that in guild chat for once lol.