This may well be a mini rant, but bare with me:
We started the first raid last night, I read the blurb A. Bayle gives you when you request it. Thanks to some handy info on Alla's we headed into the zone to trigger the retreat of the normal gnolls, and waltz around the zone until we find the martyr gnoll.
Cool, whacked him, got some emotes, and the info is "stop the ritual" from the expedition window.
From the emotes you get, how the bunny do you figure out that in order to win the event you need to kill 7 or 8 or whatever mundungas (? something like that) within a minute? Are Sony RELYING on us googling to find the info? Cause that's where we found it after 3 or 4 attempts killing endless gnolls (and maxing faction too, woot). On the berserker forums. From a guy who was in beta and told HOW to beat it.
Now we know this, we'll go ahead and try it that way. But cmon, if you're gonna give the info to people, give it to everyone. New expansion, all the guilds are holding their cards close to their chests and not wanting to share cause they want to be the first to win the expansion. Can understand that, but ffs..
Part of being a bleeding-edge raid guild involves dealing with what you don't know.
The devs don't expect you to know 100% what to do (or not to do) the first time you encounter an event... infact they expect you to fail at least once.
Now, what sets bleeding-edge apart from others many times is simply the fact that we are not afraid to fail/die and trust me we do so a lot. We recover, discuss options/event characteristics, and go again with a new strat. Sometimes we even trigger an event script and do Nothing... just wait and see what happens.
All an event could need is one person noticing an emote and saying 'hey.. it just told me XYZ!' or one player saying 'you know.. this really reminds me of event Y. Maybe we should test X?' Realizing that there is a certain name/model at each point etc. You test it.. it either works or it doesn't.. and you go on.
Do we forum dive? hell yes. Do we test every single spell/melee type we can? yeap! (You begin to cast the spell, 'The Kitchen Sink'...) Do we fail? You bet. But, we recover, alter the strat, and go again.
There is a reason that top end holds tight to their strats as well: many times those strats required hours of labor and wipes to be refined. We worked hard for them and imo it isn't unfair that we expect other guilds to do a bit of thinking on their own as well. This may sound a bit harsh but this is new content.. and the race is in full force.
The best suggestions that I can give you is pull together a team to work strats up.. test everything and anything. Keep logs. Forum dive. Get your recovery team whiped into shape and cut your downtime. Ask your guildmates for input (if there is someone who is really good at solving events... use them!). But, most of all, look inwards before you look outwards. Most events/problems can be solved with some creative thinking without the need of any outside aid. Trust me when I say that people will feel good when you beat an event without any outside help (Hey guys! We won this ourselves! Great job!).
When we try new encounters, we expect to have a masses of bodies heh. Thanks god for exp aa
Very good description from Sushe, thats exactly how it works. And if it means we have to wipe 60 times so be it, that is part of the game and makes that first victory so much sweeter (and that is the reason why i cannot stand being too much behind, because by then strats have leaked out).
Sushe couldn't be more correct just about daily right now I have to go out and burn a lesson just to keep my xp padding. But in my opinion I would have it no other way. It can get frustrating but in the end it is well worth it.
My guild will be working on the BB raid this week - downed Queen Malarion on our first night (took about 2hours of tries) last week. We're not bleeding edge (just killed Meldrath for the first time last week), but it sure feels nice to be starting current expansion progression right after the expansion comes out! If things don't go shitty, we should be a top-tier guild by next expansion release (though won't have farmed as heavily as other guilds of that lvl on server - CD and TR).
Quote from: Khauruk on November 15, 2008, 08:57:09 PM
My guild will be working on the BB raid this week - downed Queen Malarion on our first night (took about 2hours of tries) last week. We're not bleeding edge (just killed Meldrath for the first time last week), but it sure feels nice to be starting current expansion progression right after the expansion comes out! If things don't go shitty, we should be a top-tier guild by next expansion release (though won't have farmed as heavily as other guilds of that lvl on server - CD and TR).
/sniffle
Khauruk is growing up.
When I was 18, people thought I was ~40. It's the first time "crusty" was used to describe me. I think I did that a while ago.
I've resisted posting a reply here due to the certainty of being ridiculed, but in all honesty... The point I was trying to make isn't that we need to keep trying and trying on raids, because we all do that. The point I was making was that guilds in beta/players in beta were GIVEN the info, they didn't die over and over and over and then just luckily stumble into the correct chain of events that won them the raid.
My question is, why were they given the info in the first place? Could it have been that the requirements were too obscure? That'd be a matter of personal opinion of course. In either case, level playing field thanks guys, that's all I ask.
what I have found on the interwebz is
On this event, there are seven totems, never have more than 6 people at a totem or things screw up.
Place 6 groups at totems, then kill the only agro mob in zone and get to seventh totem with the last six.
From there you got to kill stuff, a certain mob needs to be taken to say 10% while killing adds and then all 7 mobs at 10% get killed at same time.
When these die the named spawns, kill that.
Sometimes a group lucks out and gets 6 mobs, this screws things up.
this appears to be a 42 man raid, while letting 54 into zone.
I am curious, Latang, have you done much raid Beta testing in EQ?
*note: Triality never saw the BB raid in beta btw...
I did one raid in beta. (After I got accepted into beta, I found out I didn't have enough time to play like I wanted to test out SoD)
Yes, we were given a specific amount of info since we had a dev leading the raid at that time. This was actually just a test of the mechanics and difficulty of that particular raid. I died countless times and offered a lot of feedback split between tells, group/raid chat and forums. Beta testers are given info so they can try out the mechanics of an event. The dev don't want you to ~waste~ time trying to figure out how to progress through to get to these raids/events or how to play these raids/events since there is only a very limited amount of time to actually test it.
How can you test something if you don't have the time to test it cause you're too busy trying to figure out how to get to it?
Sushe:
Never been accepted into beta, since we are not bleeding edge, and mainly non english speaking (heck a large % of the members can't read standard text cause it's not in chinese characters). My comment was based on the statement by a zerker who posted on a forum the info he was given in beta.
Now I realise it would be ludicrous to spend the valuable hours assigned to beta testing making people figure out HOW to beat an event rather than tuning the event itself for numbers and dps outputs and difficulty and whatever else you ubers do. So it's certainly a good idea to let people know how to win it so they have a goal to work towards.
But given that, are you saying that your guilds just walked into BB and DIDN'T ask your friend in other guilds who were on beta what the basic gist of the event was? I'm sure the people reading this message board wouldn't have, because they want to figure it out for themselves. Surely tho, the raid leaders or strategic command or whoever helps figure things out would be a little remiss if they didn't pursue every avenue of information and knowledge in order for them to advance through the expansion as quick as possible. I somehow doubt that guilds looking to get into tower of discord (that's the end zone? god knows) asap don't want to waste hours on the first raid in the first zone of the expansion that has NO INDICATION OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE RAID.
Read the emotes. Read what A. Bayle says when you get the task. Tell me how you know to co-ordinate all your groups to kill the correct mobs within a certain timeframe given that info. However, since THAT aspect of the encounter was not tested AT ALL... don't you think it might have been nice to include a little more info in the emotes?
More or less a moot point tho, I'm not a particularly clever person irl, and it might be clear as day to some of you. One thing I've noticed as I'm getting older is that I am not as clever as I once thought I was. Reality is a gip...
Quote from: Latang on December 04, 2008, 02:03:02 AM
are you saying that your guilds just walked into BB and DIDN'T ask your friend in other guilds who were on beta what the basic gist of the event was?
Entirely correct.
Quote from: Latang on December 04, 2008, 02:03:02 AMReality is a gip...
True that.
The way beta raids work is that you get together to test one tiny portion of a script. So, one guild (or pickup raid) might've seen the boss in one form, one might've seen the mudungu guys do something, one might've seen a different portion of that event. Do people share, etc,? yeah, of course. But, even with that, it took nearly a month (?) for guilds in EQ to get to the Discord timesink key mob, and it took only 3 days for people to beat all of WoW's new expansion raid content.
Either way, for guilds that are at least in MMM, this event will prove to be trivial I think. It's much easier than the loot would indicate.
QuoteI'm sure the people reading this message board wouldn't have, because they want to figure it out for themselves.
The population here is no different than the population of EQ as a whole. Loads would love walkthroughs/spoilers, and some don't.
As far as my guild...not a clue. I wasn't there for the first few tries. I think somebody heard something about balancing things, but I don't know what else was known. Whichever it was, it was down the first night due to drastic undertuning rather than cheats/whatnot.
Quote from: Inphared on December 04, 2008, 02:06:47 AM
Quote from: Latang on December 04, 2008, 02:03:02 AM
are you saying that your guilds just walked into BB and DIDN'T ask your friend in other guilds who were on beta what the basic gist of the event was?
Entirely correct.
I should have been more specific. What I meant was you just walked into BB and did 2 or 3 attempts + fails and still didn't ask your friend in other guilds who were in beta blah blah etc..
If that's the case then my hat comes off to you all. I really think it must be a basic intelligence thing, or maybe lateral thinking that allows you guys to do that. With 20/20 hindsight, I suppose we would have tried that eventually, but... not with me leading the raid. Which is probably why I don't :)
Quote from: Latang on December 04, 2008, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: Inphared on December 04, 2008, 02:06:47 AM
Quote from: Latang on December 04, 2008, 02:03:02 AM
are you saying that your guilds just walked into BB and DIDN'T ask your friend in other guilds who were on beta what the basic gist of the event was?
Entirely correct.
I should have been more specific. What I meant was you just walked into BB and did 2 or 3 attempts + fails and still didn't ask your friend in other guilds who were in beta blah blah etc..
Correct again.
Guilds guard their information fiercely. It's part of the progression grind. Survival of the fittest. Best of the best. That sort of thing.
It all depends. I know raging fury tested that raid and invited members from nearly all competing guilds serverwide to join them (thats how i was able to join). Since there was no map of the zone most of the time actually went into moving parts of the raid around and not testing anything, second higehst amount was spent on adjusting the mundungus and the hatelist restriction (thanks to pet users it got upped from the original 6), only one or two runs were made at the named after that part. If i recall correctly it is Ngreths first ever attempt on designing a raid and for that i have to applaud him, although balancing seems to be a big overall thing for SoD and is therefore not really liked.
Quote from: Inphared on December 04, 2008, 08:07:00 AM
Guilds guard their information fiercely. It's part of the progression grind. Survival of the fittest. Best of the best. That sort of thing.
Quote from: Denti on December 04, 2008, 10:41:15 AM
It all depends. I know raging fury tested that raid and invited members from nearly all competing guilds serverwide to join them (thats how i was able to join).
... And you wonder why us old guys get so confused. :roll:
Or maybe you don't. Who cares. Level playing field.
Denny Krane. Mad Cow.
So what IS the limit on numbers and do swarm pets count towards it?
I would suggest to not use swarm pets...
And it is really not all that confusing. Guilds do guard their strats and secrets and yet on beta sometimes they have to invite others on request of devs (although they allways ask beforehand). Beta is something of a carefully kept environment where normal competition is somewhat dampened. On live servers after an expansion is there for all it is certainly a a dog eats cat world until second tier guilds beat the raids and spread the strats.
We found out what was doing wrong, and apart from making the groups up this is a very easy event. Its possible to do with no adds at all.
When we do the raid we don't get any adds, obviously we did when trying to figure out, but not now. Like someone said earlier, once this raid is figured out it is pretty trivial for the quality of loot that drops.
Our guild is one of the ones that like to try and figure out what to do. We just spent maybe 4-5 weekends 6-8 wipes per Sunday figuring out General Bahgresh but he died this past Sunday. The fact that we did it on our own with minimal help was awesome.