The Beastlords' Den

both of our new slows are gone.

Instead one has been remade into a new dot, an upgrade to scorpian vemon i think.

The other is the long desired group IoS

both are now listed as being level 65 spells

You know, there were threads on how people wanted group infusion.

Grats all you tossers who asked for this.

This is one spell I will never use, if we had a group Kragg it would be worth it but we don't. The stamina is insignificant and the stats are like diaku; 95% of the eq population don't care.

The nuke is good. REALLY good. I couldn't be happier about that unless it was poison dd. The dot I could lose it and not miss a heart beat. I already push the bounds of agro to the limits, an extra dot will simply ensure that I am tanking.

But fancy wasting a 65 spell on group infusion. I rate that right up there with Plague.

Shere Khaan

ok first  the spells are not set in stone until the x-pac goes live and even then there are changes in the weeks after to items and spells etc.

next group ios while might not be a ground breaking spell it still can be useful for when htere isnt a shammy for the ldon mission or exp group
plus the new pet aa if stays as it is a group spell lands on pets so as of now we have 2 spells that work with this aa at its state , SV and SD.

the spells most classes are getting are not MAJOR upgrades there impovements or a SMALL expansion to our spells thats why its called an expansion to E :shock:

The idea behind the spells... sorry if this is vague but cant include some info...

-Group IoS would be more widely used than Kragg...


Casters, Clerics, Melee... ALL dont mind IoS too much..


Casters AND clerics BOTH dont take kragg...


If you are in a group of 3 melee's--- Group spells usually are set at ratio's of 2.5 (for mana cost/cast time), so casting Kraggon 3 people is -very- close to what casting a group kragg would do typically...


Group IoS, in a typical group, would land on all 6 members (then be clicked off by people who are capped stamina/dont care), but you still save at least a good bit of mana than casting it on 4-5 people individually...

and with IoS in group forum, many casters wont care if they get it--while they wouldn't care to ask for it when it was single cast....



Also.. the new DD has a new Foci as well for it... the Foci is limited to the new DD alone, so definatly a good thing for us...
Trushar's Anger Foci - http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=4914&source=Test

QuoteThis is one spell I will never use, if we had a group Kragg it would be worth it but we don't. The stamina is insignificant and the stats are like diaku; 95% of the eq population don't care.

-long rant cut short-

I think this is a fairly opinionated and not well thought out comment...

1) Group Kragg worth it? a 'typical' group, 3 people on average would use Kragg, while 5-6 people in a group would take IoS, maybe click it if they didnt care for it or wanted to free a slot
2) Group Kragg doesn't stack with Shaman buffs, hell neither does IoS.. why are you comparing this to our parent class anyway? of course their buffs are better!  Though, you could cast IoS followed by the lesser buffs for more stats
3) 95%.. where did you get that? I know damn near any beastlord, 65th level, that groups without shamen often, would like this spell...
4) On raids, Group IOS or kragg would be pointless (though, group IoS would STILL be used more, since casters can have it+shielding up, while they cant get Focus+shielding)


Group spells are -NOT- efficent if only 2-3 people are going to keep them... I know most my groups there are 3 people that -WANT- IoS typically.. and in some groups, I have 5 people that want IoS...

Hell, i'm in more groups where 6 people wouldn't click IoS then I'm in groups where 5 people wont click kragg's...


IoS is less-conflictant with all the other classes, it's more likely to be used on more than 3 (meaning 4 or more) people.. and group spells are built based on a x2.5-3x multiple when converted from single to group...


I'm never in a group that doesnt have a cleric, caster, or cleric+caster, .. a 'standard' group typically has at least 2 non-melee, and likely 3 (cleric+enc+necro/wis/magi)

Most wizards/magi/clerics/enchanters are not max stamina, most clerics dont mind dex/str in good groups, most casters have a free slot for an HP boost... none of these classes would take Kragg...


To pull some numbers to show I do some research before I go recommending things:
188 mana saved on 3 Kraggs
300 mana saved on 4 IoS

Time saved: (not factoring recast delay)
Kragg:
-3 casts: 4 seconds
-4 casts: 12 seconds
-5 casts: 20 seconds
-6 casts: 28 seconds
IoS:
-3 casts: 5 seconds
-4 casts: 15 seconds
-5 casts: 25 seconds
-6 casts: 35 seconds


No matter how you look at it, IoS is more widly usable/better, most casters (based on playing a shaman since EQ came out, and later a beastlord) like the +40 AC/MR over the 40 HP from Kragg/level 60 focus unless they are on a raid...

in which case people get focus anyway! Group Kragg/IoS discussion is pointless in that case, except maybe to give clerics/casters an extra 50 stamina beyond what a shaman will give them by giving them IoS?

I get requests from clerics for IoS *a lot* in groups and raids. It stacks with their selfbuffs (unlike Fo7) and gives them str/dex which they really want for meleeing with their proccy-hammer. Only when there's no shaman in group do other classes want "bst focus" it seems. My feelings overall... meh. It's ok.

Now the DoT and recently nerfed Acumen as 65 spells... like it was said previously we got enough DoTs to pull agro/tank already. Maybe change to a curse-based DoT? As for Acumen and all the replenish stamina spells everyone had... any word about SOE planning to re-imburse us (all classes with said type spells) in some way? Not that it's important to me, just noticing today that 1 of my 65 spells is (now) see invis+ultravision made me feel kinda... shafted. I never cast it anymore tho (ornate helm) so again I give it a "meh."

Agree with Shere about new cold DD completely. Nice damage but maybe make it poison or disease? If it stays cold then still /thumbs up.

New Ancient spell again makes me feel, "meh." Little better then SV but only time I use SV is when there's no rng/pal in group/raid. I will still ask for SoT/BSS, especially if they get Ancient versions. Hmm... what would atk be for Ancient:SoT... /drool.

While it's true these are still in beta, I get the gut feeling they are close to their finished states.

Quote from: DiosT-long rant cut short-

I think this is a fairly opinionated and not well thought out comment...

Yes it is opinionated, being my opinion and all. I did not post though without thinking about it.

If you want to go back I gave the same thoughts in the class balance thread about group IoS from months ago.

Quote
1) Group Kragg worth it? a 'typical' group, 3 people on average would use Kragg, while 5-6 people in a group would take IoS, maybe click it if they didnt care for it or wanted to free a slot
2) Group Kragg doesn't stack with Shaman buffs, hell neither does IoS.. why are you comparing this to our parent class anyway? of course their buffs are better! Though, you could cast IoS followed by the lesser buffs for more stats
3) 95%.. where did you get that? I know damn near any beastlord, 65th level, that groups without shamen often, would like this spell...
4) On raids, Group IOS or kragg would be pointless (though, group IoS would STILL be used more, since casters can have it+shielding up, while they cant get Focus+shielding)

1) Maybe they would take IoS, but in my experience no one asks for IoS. The only time I cast it is for my pet. When no shaman is around I get asked for Kragg more than IoS.

2) The is the first point you missed the gist of my post, Dios. I am not comparing these to FoS. And this leads to point three. Read my post again and see how I compare that stat component of IoS with the stat component of Diaku. I made the points short so they couldn't be misinterpreted.

I maintain that the stat component of IoS has been very VERY rarely requested of me. I have had tanks ask for it for stamina, but honestly, how important is 40 sta to casters? how many hp will they get from this with natural durability aa's maxxed? Yes, I know... it all counts but kragg is far more worthwhile to melee than IoS.

On a raid I can see a niche market for some classes who don't actually want FoS and prefer IoS. However, all I see is more of the SoT/SV/BSS love triangle with shamans and about who overwrote what. No thanks, I'll let the shamans handle any IoS requests.

Simply put I dislike getting level 65 spells that I will not have any need to cast. Group IoS is one of those, along with Plague. I'm glad some beastlords (including you) will get use out of this, but I won't.

Want an alternative? How about a new pet proc (since the aa is lame), or bihli; yes that would be far more useful for me. Even levitation would get more use from me. Maybe cripple. Or an upgrade to incapacitate with an small ATK debuff since I cast that spell so much.

Shere Khaan

The new dot and nuke will  both be okay.  They can replace the older versions in my spell line up now.  

As far as group IoS, unless it can be bought off a vender for a few plat, I won't be going out of my way to get it.  The few requests I have for Infusion now can easily be handled by the single cast version.  I'm very seldom grouped without a shaman anyhow.  

I too would much rather have seen a new  pet proc than a group version of a spell seldom used.  

I'm rather disappointed in our Ancient spell also.  Ancient SV will have very little use as most people prefer SoT or BSS.  

Alternatively, Ancient Spiritual Dominion would rock.  It would be a welcome spell in groups or raids, one that would be used 100% of the time with no conflicts with other classes.  I hope they rethink our Ancient spell.

Nalitra

Recently I have been surprised joining groups where I'm the main slower/buffer.  Inevitably I end up putting IOS on about 4 people.  What I didn't realise is that dex helps the crits come along and wizards are asking for IOS also.  It would be a great boost to get a group version.

What is a pain is we don't have any form of group haste which is annoying.

The only people it maybe doesn't land on are the tanks and assists that have got Shaman buffs before joining the groups.

It will be a welcome addition to my spell book if I ever get around to paying the (imo) high price of GoD.  That is high price relative to other expansions purchased for download.

Larzzus

Interesting.

I'm almost always the group slower/buffer.  Most of the time no one has a level appropriate shammy/chanter bot on standby for buffs.  So everyone wants IoS (even the necros and clerics), all melees want Kragg, and all melees and most clerics want haste.

I would most welcome any group buffs.

Group IoS should rock. I'm almost always group buffer, now if I can only get a Khati Sha tunic for the haste:)

Group IoS - YAWN !!

Group Improved IoS please.


Actually - I rather liked the direction they were sending the 'slows' - long recast, but fast cast and resist mod - a true preslow that would have been handy in LDoN hard - but meh - slow buggers up their game already - no wonder they dropped the idea.


Nue nuke new dot - I am very happy with these - people keep saying 'but its only a wussy increase over our previous' but the point is, they are a considerable increase over our second to previous.  The new damage spells hit the mark dead on the head - only in raids and good groups do we have the mana  to chain up dots and nukes, so we get good improvements in those situations, without the side effect of increasing our solo power (which, BTW, we have plenty of already)

Ancient SV - yummo - I dont give a damn if no one else wants it - I want it.  I dont use BSS, and I dont use SoT, because neither provides as much aggregate benefit.  Let the sit on horse casters use BSS, and the stay out of harms way ranjas use SoT, SV is the best spell for the jack of all trades BL.  20 PCT stronger?  Bring it on !


And yah - ancient SD would have been a better choice - in theory these will be raid spells, so they should be spells that will power up the raid force.


Accumen - I use it all the time actually - because it is my clicky buff.  I have cast my spell version of it exactly 1 time by request, and a few more on my twink rogue who is human and doesnt have an ultravision item.

Well - that covers everything on my mind this moment, I think, except -


I think Hybrids should get a 65 disc.

Hrmmm a 65 disc...

Disc that raises melee AND Spell damage for it's duration?

Disc that gives auto-block?

Disc that buffs up pet too?

Disc that gives a - resist check on spells cast?

SWARM PET DISC!! lol sorry had to say it.

Beastlords already have two great discs, I'm kinda curious what they might get for 65 or what others would actually want if there were talk of adding one.  That's for another thread though I'm sure hehe, just something to think about.  Imagine auto crit disc on melee and spells, wow that'd get crazy real fast.

this is beyond idiotic.
How many people have been run over by the Stupid Truck.
group ios..



truly i cant believe people are excited about group infusion of spirit.
i bet these people didnt even know sporpion venom is the same exact spell as envenomed bolt. wewt a new dot now i can say im a second year veteran of Dot Resisted Club.

i mean hello?
this is how the beastlord is going to advance?
dont say that "oh this is still just beta"
think about this- This is what the developers have in mind for beastlord development as they dance around testing things out.

this is a down right insult.
1) the fact that infusion of spirit was given to shamans in pop
2) that they make a group spell of it instead if just giving beastlords the next spell of the buff list.
3)from what ive gathered other classes are getting advancing spells.They are getting things that make them better for example > better slows > better elixers> dds > group taps > group heals i can list all classes my god its sad.
a group buff of a spell received 3 expansions ago.
may Khati Sha have mercy on our souls.

and lucy just posted Beastlial Alignment upgrades as im posting this.
1) it doesnt last as long as Sav or Fer (thats not even including the use of focus items and most likely because its an AA focus items wont increase it)
2) 180 atk vs 150 atk |  both have 40 sta | 70 resist vs 65 resist
a 30 atk upgrade? are the developers listening to beta buff beastlords or can someone really tell me where the hell these people come up with a +30 atk and +5 resist is gonna sell someone.
Hey how about them berserkers...

I'm gonna agree and say group IoS is dumb. This doesn't improve anything. All it does is save you 0-30 seconds of buffing before you go into your dungeon. I was perfectly fine with casting IoS a few times every 2 weeks. Group IoS is a waste and whoever is in beta needs to be feedbacking for something better.

Along those same lines is the new DoT. It could have atleast been more efficient than scorpion venom, so I might have to think about it for a few seconds before deciding not to use it. Why do we need another DoT to not use?. Who are these people that get to use 2 nukes and 2 DoT's and not end up a smear on the ground?.

I like the new nuke though, and I have no complaints about bestial alignment. Whats so bad about an improved fero that costs no mana, with a cool illusion?.


Group IoS needs to become something that does more than save me 30seconds every month.
The DoT needs to become either better or something that doesn't suck, like ancient flash of light!. 8)

hmm...

What do you want instead of group IoS? Group Kragg saves even less time...

we will NOT get 3 DPS-increasing spells for the expansion... so poison-based DD is out...


I think group IoS is better than having 2 Cursed-only slows, so from my viewpoint they already made the 'slot' for our 3rd expansion spell better...


I'm open to idea's, but most of these spells are designed to be upgrades of existing spells, and provide very little increase in power...


But i think we already have that.. our new nuke & DoT increases out DPS by a damn good bit, the DoT alone increases out DPS ~25 points... I mean, it's like casting Scorpion venom twice and having it stick... it's not that bad of a spell if you consider they -stack- instead of just looking at how the new dot only does ~200 more damage... the key is we can STACK the 2 DOTs


and for those who dont like dot's, or are somewhere mobs die to fast, the new DD is a way to increase your faster dps...

they fixed Trushar's to be 2.71 in efficency now, so it's slightly better then Frost Spear now

I get the feeling from reading here that everyone seems to be under the impression that Kragg and IoS don't stack.

They do.

Kragg, IoS, Furious Str, Dexterity, Stamina

All of those spells stack.

hp +395
str +84
dex +105
sta +85

You don't get as much HP as focus, but you get more str/dex/sta than Focus.  Although I think that's irrevalent, because if a Shaman is in the group, you wouldn't use IoS most likely anyway.


Nobody asks for IoS?  It's because nobody knows the spell exists.  Hell, most Shamans <60 when I ask for IoS... I get Harnessing <sighs>

Nobody knows what the hell IoS does, or knows that it stacks with Kraggs + direct stat buffs.  It stacks with EVERYTHING except Shammy Focus buffs. That's it.  Everything else that you would encounter.

I personally will love group IoS.  If a Shaman isn't around, it'll be very much sought after.

agreed dios. The new AAs, group ios, new nuke, new dot...all good stuff!

Ditto, im with Dios on this as well.

No merrit, the conflict is between..

-group Kragg
-group IoS


Some feel group IoS is useless, and want group Kragg
Some feel group Kragg is useless, and want IoS to remain

Quoteand lucy just posted Beastlial Alignment upgrades as im posting this.
1) it doesnt last as long as Sav or Fer (thats not even including the use of focus items and most likely because its an AA focus items wont increase it)
2) 180 atk vs 150 atk | both have 40 sta | 70 resist vs 65 resist
a 30 atk upgrade? are the developers listening to beta buff beastlords or can someone really tell me where the hell these people come up with a +30 atk and +5 resist is gonna sell someone.
Hey how about them berserkers...

You arn't in beta, so you don't know what's going on in beta right now... that's fine... but unfortunatly it's a one-sided attack because it would break Non-Disclousure agreements to fight it...


But basically... does the fact it still has a mana cost, and is 90% identicle to Ferocity still, weigh in at all in telling you they arn't done messing with AA's yet?




Also, while other classes are getting 'better spells'... almost all of them are Higher DPS, less Efficency.. the fact we are getting BETTER DPS for SAME efficency is pritty damn good...


Look at the cleric heals, they are the exact same efficency as the spell they are upgrading.. they arn't much 'better' then the spell they are upgrading... ITS THE SAME FOR OUR SPELLS TO...

Clerics are getting no Efficency increase from the new spells, but the spells are getting slightly better

Scorpion Venom -> Ukan Blood, More damage, Same efficency.. and unlike heals, we can STACK the 2 spells for even more damage at a nice efficency rating
Frost Spear -> Trushar's, Same efficency, better damage.. can pop out the  old pre-60 DD and put this in it's place...



With 2 spells like this, i dont care what the 3rd spell is, as long as it's useful in more than 2 zones[/quote]

I really like the new nuke.  Although it's still down on efficency verse what the rest of the line prior to frost spear was (3 to 1).  The new dot is a minor upgrade because almost no one is ever going to be throwing out double scorp venoms and if they do not for long.  However, I do see how nice it is.

Group infusion is nice, but it's purely a convinence upgrade, a convinence that many won't use believe it or not.  I like the idea, but as a 65 spell that will at most save me ~30 seconds and maybe some mana, but mana during buff time that I'll likely have totally regened before I do anything.  Seeing it have some atk 8P mmmmm wishful thinking sure.  I hate to mention other classes but in this case I think it fits, rangers have a new 480(ish) heal at 65 for 195 mana 3.0 casting time.  Rng/bst have always had the exact same heals and regen at levels and that will now be gone if this goes live.

If it really were between group infusion and group kragg, then yeah I'd say group infusion is going to be more used by the most beastlords overall, but it's a 65 spell and more and more people are going to be maxing stats.  I guess the fact that it's currently a 65 spell and doesn't upgrade any new stats is what's really throwing me.  I personally would love a new heal as I heal more than some paladins I know, but *shrugs*.

I'm happy with the new nuke and dot.  They are small upgrades to our current versions, which expansion spells have always been about.  

How useful Infusion of Spirit vs Kragg vs neither, depends I believe completely on your play style.  For a high end raiding beastlord, both IoS and Kragg are pretty useless.  For those who are often buffing their groups, either would be nice.  

I fall into the category of high end raiding.  My RL husband is also a level 65 shaman so I am very, very seldom grouped without a shaman.  If IoS is what we end up with, then I'll get it and bury it somewhere in my book for those once in a blue moon occasions when I have to buff a group.  

I am going to agree completely with Tastian here.  Beast heals and ranger heals have always gone hand in hand with each other.  I am very surprised SOE is breaking away from that now.  

I think the new heal rangers are getting would be great to have.  It is a spell I would use often.  It is a spell that would be handy whether your a high end raiding beast, a soloing beast, or a casual LDON grouper.  

As it stands now though, 2 out of 3 of our spells are nice so I'm happy enough.  Also, we will have a mixed bag of AA's so all-in-all, not a bad expansion for beastlords.  

Nalitra
65 Feral Lady

Just wanted to add my thoughts on the new spells for kicks.  I'm in Beta, but due to PoT being down (where the betabuff 65 BST is) and Mahes not being transfered, I haven't done much.  So I'm not 100% on what's going on there.  Anyways...

The new nuke is very nice and will be the spell I focus on obtaining first given the current line up.  I do think it needs to be raised just a tad to be more efficient, but it will be nice to replace the pre-60 nuke.  Personally I always have the top 2 DDs loaded and use them as they refresh, so this spell appeals to me.  Having a focus for it, in game, is even better...though I'd rather see a focus for one of our more mana-intensive spells.  But no complaints there.

The DoT...honestly, I couldn't care less.  It's more or less right there with Pack Shrew.  I don't use DoTs unless I'm trying to solo some beefy named mob or something.  They just don't mix well with groups when you're got multiple pulls and are mezzing.  Mobs die to fast to DoT in general.  Plus, and I could be wrong, but last time I checked they weren't as efficient as nukes.  It's great for those that use them, I suppose.

Group IoS...Ok, again this is from my point of view and how I play.  IoS is the spell I cast on my warder.  Period.  I haven't self-buffed IoS in about 5 months.  Stats are maxed so the spell's useless.  My guild is familiar with it.  They know what it does.  Yet only once in a blue moon will I get a request for it from a cleric who wants to melee.  When your guild is Time capable, odds are these stats are capped or easily buffed to cap without IoS, due to gear.  I do, however, get requests for Kragg often when shamans aren't around.  I also always have this buff up.  I'd vote Group Kragg from my standpoint because it has more potential to benefit me and my group.  All that in mind...neither would be make or break for me.  Just handy.

As for the Ancient spell, I've already posted somewhere that I'd prefer an ancient version of SD.  It's our defining spell and it has no stacking issues like SV does.  Now I know the Ancient spells in the past weren't game-breaking and were only minor upgrades, so I can see the logic in the Ancient SV, but it's not overly appealing as this is a buff I never use on raids.  I would, however, love a 10 mana/hp per tick SD.  Sure it's only 1 more but it adds up, and yes, as someone posted before, when you're raiding you're already regen'n mana like mad....but this spell would have a lot of appeal beyond raids.

Again, this is all from my perspective and I know not all BSTs are Time flagged or have stats capped(not trying to brag).  Just wanted to add my two cents as it pertains to me in hopes that maybe the devs will take it into consideration.

**Edit** Just wanted to add, as the above posters, I would go nuts over a  new heal.  It could be just a 50 point increase over chloro(though who wouldn't like more?) and I'd be all over it.  As someone who duos / solos a lot, and even back up heals on raids and groups thanks to healing AAs, this would be an incredible spell for me.

Beta Beastlords...

You need to be careful on how you say things, being in Beta you are bound to a NDA agreement.. and arn't allowed to give 'personal experience' with the expansion until it is released, and the majority of the NDA agreement is lifted...

Need to stick with data from the spell files, and publicly accessable material..


Yes I know it's annoying, makes it hard to support your opinion, but :-/ well, I go behind the NDA 100%, and I have no problems with censorship when someone is violating the law (NDA is a legally binding contract)



Anyway, I'll feedback the idea of replacing group IOS with the heal to get the idea on their table..

Also, I included a request that if they dont want to give us the heal to make Group IoS a tad better

IoS is totally useless for elemental geared bst and so would be grp version.

-Raz

I would guess that on my server that 75-80% of all 65 bsts are not elemental flagged, myself included.  For us group IoS would an incredible boost.  That's kinda why they would put it in you know.  Way too many people think the game revolves around the end game but it doesn't.  Try to keep that in mind.

Quote from: SilverakI would guess that on my server that 75-80% of all 65 bsts are not elemental flagged, myself included.  For us group IoS would an incredible boost.  That's kinda why they would put it in you know.  Way too many people think the game revolves around the end game but it doesn't.  Try to keep that in mind.

What I was gonna say to respond to razimir...

There are people other than elemental flagged beastlords...

the DD should work well for them, and so should the DoT outside raids...

Quote from: SilverakI would guess that on my server that 75-80% of all 65 bsts are not elemental flagged, myself included.  For us group IoS would an incredible boost.  That's kinda why they would put it in you know.  Way too many people think the game revolves around the end game but it doesn't.  Try to keep that in mind.

I definitely try to keep this in mind and hope my post didn't reflect otherwise.  I was simply trying to approach it from my point of view with the information I know and the game as I play it.

In my opinion, group IoS should have been a given.  It shouldn't have been single target or they should have made it a pre-60 spell with group at 64 or 65.  But they didn't.  I can see how the reduction in mana would be nice to a non-EP BST.  I can't access Lucy, but I'm trying to recall if IoS was more or less mana per cast than Kraggs.  That would certainly make a difference in which of the two you'd prefer to be able to group buff.

I think ideally we'd get a group IoS as a gimme in addition to the heal.  We've always been on par with rangers for heals and I'd like to see that remain.

Heres are some spells that would be more of a benefit than the ones theyve created.

Khura's Focusing-Beastlords would get their buff need plus hp which doesnt leave the spell to be useless by players with max stats.
Voice of the Beserker-bring Frenzy spell back into beastlords.
Bane of Nife-If i wanted a dot give it some muscle atleast.
Remove Greater Curse-we should have had this with the rest of the classes.
And here to satisfy the role playing beastlord who wants their own spell line.

Sha's Determination-Some kind of spell focus for pet heals and pc healings.
Sha's Experiment- DR slow 65%-Keeps Shaman slows still at the helm and beastlords as a back up.
Ancient Khati Sha's Meditation- Spiritual Dominion upgrade

and i just thought of these off the top of my head as i posted this.

the development that these guys are thinking on is low. there are plenty of things to have than group infusion of spirit.

Quote from: KlavHeres are some spells that would be more of a benefit than the ones theyve created.

Khura's Focusing-Beastlords would get their buff need plus hp which doesnt leave the spell to be useless by players with max stats.
Voice of the Beserker-bring Frenzy spell back into beastlords.
Bane of Nife-If i wanted a dot give it some muscle atleast.
Remove Greater Curse-we should have had this with the rest of the classes.
And here to satisfy the role playing beastlord who wants their own spell line.

Sha's Determination-Some kind of spell focus for pet heals and pc healings.
Sha's Experiment- DR slow 65%-Keeps Shaman slows still at the helm and beastlords as a back up.
Ancient Khati Sha's Meditation- Spiritual Dominion upgrade

and i just thought of these off the top of my head as i posted this.

the development that these guys are thinking on is low. there are plenty of things to have than group infusion of spirit.

Focus:  No, we are not duel wielding shaman, they get the easyt buffs, we get the DPS.    Besides, I click off Khura's the instant it's cast on me.. IoS+Kragg+STR/STA/DEX is considerably better.

VotB: I agree here.. Frenzy is decisively old hat, further behind every other spell line we share with shaman...  If not VotB, then just a Beastlord-only upgrade to Frenzy, perhaps with a small ATK component.

Bane of Nife and RGC: No, again we're not duel wielding Shaman, our current DoTs (Along with the new one upcoming) are sufficient for our needs... I can see Remove Curse, simply because it has mild usefulness bit really isn't all that great... sort of a 'woops' cure kinda like Counteract Poison


Heal focus:  Eeeeh.. already a number of Healing focuses for everyone to use.. we're not healers by trade.. perhaps a Healing of Sorsha only spell haste so it's actually useable in the heat of battle would be nice.

DR-based slow: Eeeeh... I'm iffy about giving up any sort of leg up over shaman or even an equal footing.. they're the kings of slowing, we're the squires who also have a ferocious animal pet and a mean streak.  

Upgrades Dominion:  10 hp/mana I can definately see.. not a huge boost, but sweet none-the-less... certainly more sppealing than improved Vigor (Even though I'm drooling for this one, too)

Shaman only get a 25% and 40% DR slow.. giving us a 65% DR slow is just whack. :)

I don't feel we "should" have ever had RGC, we have no abilities/spells relating to curses as is.

Focus: No, we are not duel wielding shaman, they get the easy buffs, we get the DPS. Besides, I click off Khura's the instant it's cast on me.. IoS+Kragg+STR/STA/DEX is considerably better.

IF you have to use furious str and infusion you have freaking bad stats.
if you are worried about losing hp that much you would have gotten focus of soul from your nearby shaman instead of being a solo artist?
All talismans(except kragg) stack with Khuras.
Beastlord self buffed 395 hp 84 str 105 dex 95 sta
Using Khura 445 hp  135 str 120 dex 50 sta
under what circumstances are you willing to sacrifice more str for hp i really dont know. speaking from a higher end perspective direct hp is more desired.
Bane of Nife and RGC: No, again we're not duel wielding Shaman, our current DoTs (Along with the new one upcoming) are sufficient for our needs... I can see Remove Curse, simply because it has mild usefulness bit really isn't all that great... sort of a 'woops' cure kinda like Counteract Poison


You must have missed the dots that beastlords get. Sicken, a shaman dot, tainted breath, a shaman dot, venom of the snake, a shaman dot, scorpion venom, a beastlord spell that is identical to evenomed bolt which is a shaman dot, plague you guessed it- a shaman dot. Do you see the pattern? One would think that we have receieved Shaman spells in the passed. Would it make you feel any better if we changed the name to something like Feral Sickness so you wont feel guilty about using shaman spells?146 per tick upgraded to 161 per tick. lets just use an sk for instance. ignite blood at lvl 61 does 50 per tick the blood of hate at lvl 63 does 160 per tick.Theyve taken a spell from the parent class. and evolved it into an sk spell which is a fast acting dot and does way more dmg.

Healing Focus. Let's see here.
thats Ceramic Totem of The Rathe, Primal Mask of the Earthcrafter, Veil of War Wise Eyes,Simple Ring of Purity,Mantle of Pure Spirit. These are the beastlord items with improved Healing IV focus or better.all but one of these requires ELEMENTAL or higher access.
I fail to see why you would say beastlords dont heal when i have a complete pet heal spell line that says otherwise.

Disease Slow.how many have noticed that enchanters are asked to slow just as much as  a shaman is desired? Shamans have always been the main slower and other classes have always been back up or improv when the lack of a shaman is there. why would you be unconvinced that beastlords should take part in playing more rolls in raids?Edit:Found http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=4900&source=Test which is 60% dr slow for shamans.Give shamans 75% dr slow and give beastlords a 60% dr slow. now you your DR slow for more mana than MR slow plus you can implement gan slow partials.all it would do is increase mana for using it yet slow % doesnt change. does that make the populas happy?

RGC. Beastlords are slightly based of priest class. i have a neck item that has clickable cure disease and youre telling me that beastlords have no reason whatsoever involving the ability to cure detrimental counters.

Actually I never wanted group kragg either. I was pretty much alluding to how ineffective group IoS would be to the Beastlords I know.

I understand that expansion spells never really push the boundary of power. They normally reserve that for the realm of new levels. The nuke is good, although I disagree somewhat on the dot. Only time I could use 2 dots and not worry about agro is if I am tanking.

If it comes down to little power increase but a boost in efficiency or usability, how about a combination of rellic and arag's so I don't have to keep memming pet buff spells ad nauseum? I still like the idea of a slightly increased incapacitate, no one would ever call that spell unbalanced.

The healing is a good one I hadn't thought of, these days I heal a lot. if not an increased heal, how about a faster heal with a recast with the same efficiency as chloro?

Lastly I agree that ancient SV is fairly lame. Some classes get an increased nuke while we get a spell that we hardly ever cast anyway? I would prefer an ancient SD or even an ancient Ferocity which would get more use. Shamans got one of their class defining spells boosted (quiesence), surely we could get something other than SV.

Shere Khaan

New nuke.  No complaints.

New dot.  Almost never cast scorp venom anyways, since our nukes are more efficient and more dps for the most part, not to mention aggro issues and that fact that the dots seem to get resisted more.

Group IoS.  I can see it being useful, just not to me.

Ancient SV.  We could have better, but over all I'd still use this often since I do spend time out of raids w/o a pally or ranger bot handy.

What would I like?

Pet haste/shrink/proc combo would own.  

If they are giving rangers a new bigger heal, maybe a HoT for bl's would
be in order.  Kind of like NI vs Quint.  

What would I give up for these spells?  The dot is the obvious one for me.

Klav, the spell you linked is not DR based, it is magic resist based.  

Balance of the Nihil  
 
Slot Description
2:  Decrease Attack Speed by 60%
3:  Increase Disease Counter by 24  
 
Mana: 175 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 1.5 Recast Time: 12
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: Magic
Resist Adjust -30 Range: 200
Location: Any Time of Day: Any
Deletable: Yes Dot Stacking: Yes
Interruptable: Yes Short Buff Box: No
Target Type: Single Spell Type: Detrimental
Source: Test 01/13    
 
Classes: SHM/65
Duration: 7 ticks  
 
Game Description: Engulfs your target in a swarm of insects, slowing their attack rate for %z.

-------------------------------------

This is their best DR slow.

Cloud of Grummus  
 
Slot Description
2:  Decrease Attack Speed by 40%
3:  Increase Disease Counter by 16  
 
Mana: 400 Skill: Conjuration
Casting Time: 6.4 Recast Time: 5
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: Disease
Range: 200 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Fizzle Adj 10
Deletable: No Dot Stacking: Yes
Interruptable: Yes Short Buff Box: No
Target Type: Single Spell Type: Detrimental
Source: Test 01/14    
 
Classes: SHM/61
Duration: 3.1 mins @L61 to 3.3 mins @L65
Items with spell: Spell: Cloud of Grummus  
 
Cast on you: A cloud of plague numbs your body.
Cast on other: Someone 's body is covered in a brown mist.
Wears off: The cloud disperses.
Game Description: Surrounds your target with a foul cloud of plague, slowing their attack rate for %z.

Quote from: Klavyoure telling me that beastlords have no reason whatsoever involving the ability to cure detrimental counters.

If you are replying to me I said, "curses." Not spells with poison and/or disease counters but spells with curse counters. I only assume you are because I don't see any other post saying anything to support your quote.

Roleplay Reasoning: Clerics, Druids, Shaman and Paladins are a devout and holy lot. We are more akin to Rangers, warriors that have some training from our respective Priest class and abilities of our own. Disease and poison are mundane detrimental effects; they occur in nature and can be associated with animals. Curses are not natural and deal intimately with the gods, souls and spirits. Things our class is not intimate with aside from a single spirit warder that bonds with us for life.

Game Balance Reasoning: The classes do not need any more sharing of spells/skills IMHO. Leave DR slows shaman-only. Leave RC/RGC Priest/Paladin-only. Giving us these things is just going to make those classes even less unique. And less uniqueness equals more class-hate.

Thanks Diost I don't know how I come across sometimes, but I am very greatful for all you do and have done for his community.  I gave the spells a lot of thought and the new nuke is great, the new dot is very minor, but that's cool.  I'd really like to see a new heal at 65.  I heal constantly well solo/grouping/raiding/whatever as do a lot of bsts.  The higher and higher a bst gets the less and less they usually heal their pet.  I haven't cast sorsha in a very long time.  If they just don't want bst getting a new direct heal hen a HoT like someone mentioned might work well or even if group infusion just added a little bit more. Really though I think a new direct heal just like what rangers have atm would be best.  

The reason why it's hard to just buff infusion though is because the people it's useless for it'd still be useless for with higher str/dex/sta.  Stacking can become an issue with hps/atk/etc so I'm not really sure what else they could throw on there.  Not too sure they want to just out of the blue add +20 wisdom or something to group infusion.  Anyways I just really wanted to say thanks and make sure I wasn't coming across poorly 8)  Keep up the great work please we are all very lucky to have ya.

A pet only remove curse spell would be handy I would think.

If they combined Kragg and Infusion and made that a group spell, that would be enought to keep me happy (even with no power increase).  It would save a buff slot as well as time.  My only concern would be that it may be considered a little too powerful for us.  I'm not sure whether a spell like this would overstep the boundary into shaman territory.  We have more than enough people calling for us to be nerfed now, I would not want to add to their ammunition.  :wink:

Quote from: TastianIf they just don't want bst getting a new direct heal hen a HoT like someone mentioned might work well or even if group infusion just added a little bit more. Really though I think a new direct heal just like what rangers have atm would be best.  

I'd wager, if they dont want to give us a heal upgrade, they won't give us a 'torpor-like' spell..

even if it heals less, with the same side effects... Doubt anyone would use it :-/

90% of the spells they are putting in this patch have NO efficency increase, only increased power/potential.. if they gave us a HoT, it would likely be no more 'efficent' then Chloroblast with side effects.... at least, thats what I would expect If i were a developer working on spells...


As i said, doesnt hurt to try, and i sent in feedback inquiring if they wanted to give us group kragg, or a heal like the rangers

Quote from: DiosTAs i said, doesnt hurt to try, and i sent in feedback inquiring if they wanted to give us group kragg, or a heal like the rangers

If they took our nuke for a group kragg I would quit playing this game instantly. Best not to even put ideas in their heads. Stick with the improved heal like rangers.

Shere Khaan

Quote from: Murkk DakruulGroup IoS is a waste and whoever is in beta needs to be feedbacking for something better.

Just because people feedback for something doesn't mean it happens, and just because something doesn't happen doesn't mean that people didn't feedback for it.

QuoteAlong those same lines is the new DoT. It could have atleast been more efficient than scorpion venom, so I might have to think about it for a few seconds before deciding not to use it. Why do we need another DoT to not use?. Who are these people that get to use 2 nukes and 2 DoT's and not end up a smear on the ground?.

If you run up against a mob that is cold resistant then being able to put two dots on the mob instead of one is pure ownage.  Especially when the new one more than doubles the total damage you could otherwise do in those 42 seconds.  It's not the best to use for short fights, but it's 200% better than having Plague or Venom of the Snake as your other "non-cold" options besides Scorp Venom.

For you number crunchers:

Scorp Venom + Ukun's Blood = 2380 total damage every 42 seconds

Frost Spear + Trushar's Breath = 1417 total damage every 30 seconds (because of long recast times).

Before you counter about efficiency, my response would be that sometimes it's better if the mob dies and you're lom than if it lives and you get to say that you got killed with mana in your tank.  And it gives you an incentive to get mana regen, preservation, etc. items.  Dots are also never partially resisted (ever land a "critical blast" for 100 points of your 675 nuke, and have to wait 30 seconds to try again?) and even if they are fully resisted you can recast them shortly after to try to land them.

No, dots aren't a tool for every job but it's not a good idea to underestimate them, imo.

Quote from: Shere Khaan

Quote from: DiosTAs i said, doesnt hurt to try, and i sent in feedback inquiring if they wanted to give us group kragg, or a heal like the rangers

If they took our nuke for a group kragg I would quit playing this game instantly. Best not to even put ideas in their heads. Stick with the improved heal like rangers.

Shere Khaan

Why would they replace the nuke with group kragg?  I think the people feedbacking are talking about replacing group ios with group kragg instead, based on which of those would be used more (neither may be often, but one of them is better than the other to a lot of people) OR replacing group ios with a heal.

QuoteScorp Venom + Ukun's Blood = 2380 total damage every 42 seconds

Frost Spear + Trushar's Breath = 1417 total damage every 30 seconds (because of long recast times).

In 42 seconds you can cast both spears twice for 2834 damage.  So not even worrying about crits, 2834 > 2380 and I'll bet a lot less aggro.

Flashback to school days... let's use a common denominator!

Scorp Venom + Ukun's Blood = 11900 damage every 210 seconds for 3780 mana total (if no part of the DoT is wasted)

Frost Spear + Trushar's Breath = 9919 damage every 210 seconds for 3668 mana total

Even though the dmg/mana ratio is better for DoTs I will still use nukes. If 1 tick of every DoT is wasted (mob dies before full effect hits) then the above example would be 10750 damage for DoTs. And I can't recall the last time I landed a crit DoT... nukes on the other hand.

I'm not saying burn all the DoT-users... I still use DoTs on very rare occasions. I have a 30% bonus to cold nuke damage focus so you can also say I am biased. :) Add that to the above gives 12895 damage for nukes.

EDIT: Bad math on my part should read 10365 instead of 10750.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=4874&source=Test

check the stacking please.
this from the looks of it does not stack with e bolt kthx!

forget your number crunching please.

Really the only time I have problems with our nukes is in PoW. No way im using DoT's on hydrotha, the tanks have a hard enough time holding aggro on him already. They won't be getting used on coirnav, the fight ends by the time FoS and our damage disc runs out.

I guess I can use em on KtM and ofassaa, woo woo. I do actually use them to solo sometimes, but seeing as we are getting only a few spells in this expansion, I personally would like spells that would atleast get used once a day.

Same thing as Tytallia, I have a 30% cold focus so I may be biased. You can't crit DoT's, and for me they only get used if the DD's are getting resisted. They cause to many problems to be worth it, Aggro(more than the DD's), Will break mez's, cause problems when mobs need to be blurred and unless they do full damage they arn't as efficient as the nukes.

I'm wondering if other people do use the DoT's. I'm perfectly fine with getting one if enough people use them, I personally don't use them much, but if most bst's do i'm all for it.

A second dot is useful on raids.  Its application within an xp group situation is limited because of the simple fact that very few xp mobs in full groups survive for 50 seconds.

On raids there are numerous times when the second dot could be used (after experimenting with agro to make sure it could be cast).  On virtually all boss mobs I cast scorpion venom, I do watch my agro closely and its very hard to control - but after a little bit of dying (on minor raids where it doesn't matter if you turn and get killed) you should be able to use it.

On mobs where melee is of less use due to insane ae's or ae round target (We do TZ by spreading out round the target and using range nukes/dot's) or mobs such as the stage 2 boss on the way to agnarr where you can melee but you get hit for a reasonable amount of damage unless you do alot of running out of melee range, or you can dot out of range (nukes don't work on that boss).

When you absolutely must have agro but you have no time to do it.  I have been SA (two group clearing style) for how we uniquely do berty ring.  I have to agro as quickly as possible in a 2 hour executioner trial type thing.  Often I will slow and then break mez (if it has one) with the largest agro spell we have (scorpion venom at present).  I largely imagine that the new spell will be even more agro.

Lastly dot stacking - pretty much all non attribute changing dot's now stack.  Dot's that are on the stacking issues bit of lucy do indeed stack, so I am confident that ukun's blood will likewise stack.

Don't get me wrong trushar's breath is far and away the pick of the bunch, I use nukes an incredible amount - but also on certain raids dots are golden(VT is great for dot's because of the long fight durations and difficulty of melee and AC of the mobs) .

A spell doesn't have to be used 100% of the time by everyone for it to be a worthwhile addition.

You're 65 Klav and didn't know DoTs stack? Erm... now you know enjoy! :wink:

ive been playing a beastlord since week 1 of luclin
and leveling using my pet CH as often as i could i had no reason to use dots.
and now at my level i still have rarely used them because usually i am asked to slow and heal.
and still even in my lack of knowledge, i wouldnt use it because
1) the area of soloing is fading away
2) getting super agro from fast acting dots is not what i need
3) If i need agro i would trust sha's advantage.
4)in pvp i have tried them and frown each time for wasted mana on resist checks.
On raids(especially tallon zek) ive learned its best to play it safe when it comes to damage.You dont need heroes-you need smart players.My mana usage is diposed off in other areas due to main healers in CH lines and what not.Again thank you for the nice update but really; Your Tainted Breath spell has worn off on Quarm? I really shake my head at that. I still frown at the idea that i am supposed to be  casting lvl 49 shaman spells on Quarm let alone a lvl 14 shaman spell even if it had a chance at landing.

You know what would make the dot worth casting in an exp group?

If they could cut the mana cost and duration in half.  Keep the same ratio.  It would still be the same dps increase,  it would now go from being totaly inefficient to only mildly inefficient compared to our nukes.

In normal groups i have one dot and 2 nukes loaded, however i use mostly one nuke and one dot (the cast time on the second nuke is too long to be efficient). In PoW i use a mage summoned dot focus and our 4 highest dots, sick them all in for mini bosses and keep them til he is dead. If the tank survives i have no aggro problem at all, if there is a tank change i will most probably get summoned once or twice and i can survive up to 4 summons (if my healer is fast enough). I can even melee between recasts without aggro problems (major that is, i might get on rampage but i can take it), but i will probably not survive a tank change :) Since we dont use pets on Boss mobs in PoW i can max my dps this way.

Id like to see a higher damage dot and a higher damage nuke as well (and i dont care about efficiency in regard to mana), too bad i only have a 30 cold nuke focus and no burning affliction one other than the mage summoned bracelet.

Quote from: BengaliWhy would they replace the nuke with group kragg?  I think the people feedbacking are talking about replacing group ios with group kragg instead, based on which of those would be used more (neither may be often, but one of them is better than the other to a lot of people) OR replacing group ios with a heal.

I think both are completely useless personally. I would rejoice if neither of them existed, I only suggested a group kragg to exaggerate how silly group IoS is to me. The fact that people thought it was a serious request fills me with despair  :roll:

Shere Khaan

Shere you must never group shaman, or you and your friends are past it. Group IoS will be as useful to me as any spell in the game. I never use ProtofCaliv, if they added an Ancient Spell I would never see it, I don't use DoTs, and probably wont change that with the new one. However I see the uses for these to others, just because I won't use, see or need doesn't mean that its bad for them to be out there.

I'll use the dots in my 3 man kiting group with my Necro and Shammy buddies.  

Are they awesome, no..
...but can they be useful, yes.  

This class has always been about it's utility and flexability, I for one am glad that our flexability is not changing.  

Group IoS will be great for me.  LDoN, I rarely use a shammy.  And yes, everyone wants IoS that didn't already hit up a shammy for fucus.

:wink:

QuoteIf they took our nuke for a group kragg I would quit playing this game instantly. Best not to even put ideas in their heads. Stick with the improved heal like rangers.

QuoteWhy would they replace the nuke with group kragg? I think the people feedbacking are talking about replacing group ios with group kragg instead, based on which of those would be used more (neither may be often, but one of them is better than the other to a lot of people) OR replacing group ios with a heal.

Is it etched in stone somewhere that we can only have 3 spells for this expansion and that we must choose carefully which ones we get? Why can't we get a new DoT, new nuke, Group Infusion of Spirit AND Group Kragg? Seems a simple enough solution to me. Combining kragg and IoS wouldn't do us much good as it would have the same conflicts focus has now (ie. caster and cleric self buffs.) If they're going to give us a group version of one then they should give us a group version of the other. Kragg and IoS are our ghetto focus, they're like peanut butter and jelly, they just go together. Can't think of any reason they can't give us both.

I'm generally happy with the new nuke and dot. I find them both to be situational spells. When I'm in a raid or group where the average lifespan of a mob is measured in seconds I'll use nukes to get some quick damage in. If I'm soloing or in a group where I'm the main tank I'll load up all my dots and use them to keep agro and lay down some good constant damage. Also there are some raid encounters where DoTs would be more effective. These are mostly luclin encounters, especially Vex Thall named, where fights last several minutes and the main tank has good solid agro. Just be sure to keep in mind that mobs only have 30 buff slots. If you just stuck Sicken on Aten Ha Ra and the necro's Blood of Thule "won't take hold" your being more of a hinderance than a help.

What I'm most dissapointed with is the total lack of creativity with our spells. It seems to me that these spells were thrown together because SoE wanted another bullet point to tack onto their sales pitch.

Quote from: TirshathaJust be sure to keep in mind that mobs only have 30 buff slots. If you just stuck Sicken on Aten Ha Ra and the necro's Blood of Thule "won't take hold" your being more of a hinderance than a help.

Exactly why I'm forbidden to DoT on raid mobs; our weaker stuff blocks better shaman/necro/whoever DoTs.

I only saw once the no-hold-message on a mob, normally its not a problem at all to stick dots and debuffs in, never get complaints about doting and there is no rule in our guild about it. The point is still a valid one though.

I think that beasts should be getting a similar heal as rangers.  I don't know many rangers in my guild who have put any time into getting the healing aax's or the crit heals(case in point Rathe fight 2 rangers in my group, both tossing non aax enforced healing yet both have over 300aax), yet every beast in my guild made it a priority to get those aax's early on and find ourselves firing off 509 heals and 1018 crits and some with improved healing are doing much more than that.  On some fights the beasts are used for fill in healing and it only makes sense, my guild makes sure to spread the beasts around for that exact purpose.  

I think it would be a huge oversight if sony didn't give us a similar heal.  I could care less about group IOS actually :)  The only people that want it on raids these days are clerics and 9 our of 10 times our clerics only need a single cast it on them not group cast.