Rough 1st draft of new top 10 (10/15/04)...

[Incite]

Buffing:

Most buffs are single target.  A beastlord trying to keep a group hasted is a complete PITA.  Is there any chance of them considering group buffs for the IoS line (store bought, getting GoD spells is a more difficult task than the 1.5 epic) and for haste.  Charge 6x the mana.  Hell, charge 10x the mana.  Group SoW would be nice too as well as removing the silly additional refresh time on casting individual SoW.

Looks good to me Tastian, even if I do still disagree on the aggro issue.

[Eatbugs]

I like the new list - it covers pretty much every issue I have, and makes convincing points for each of them.  Thanks, Tastian  :)

[Tastian]

Incite -  The aggro problem is one of those issues that some beastlords won't see until they get there.  Just like the dps issue;  some beastlords won't see it.  Atm you are using SPFs main hand and that is one of the best aggro to dmg ratio weapons in the game for us.  Wait until you try moving up to an ED or get a weapon that has a nice debuff built in or a lame, lame low level stun for no obvious reason.  I don't know if you have CB yet, but wow give it a whirl it's just insane.  18 poison counters and 200 a tick dmg, with some crit ticks I've yanked aggro off DBotW warriors lol.  We just too much of our damage non-melee style and things like dots have horrible dmg to aggro ratios.  You have to understand that where you are at now you are even competing with other dps classes for damage, so even if you get aggro now it can be understandable.  Just wait until other classes are doing 100+dps more than you and you are still the one getting killed on tank changes and on bad strings of procs hehe.

[Graace]

On some fight after Keledrex (or maybe it was Keledrex), I managed to get banished and called an agro whore by the warriors O_O  I wasn't even attempting to get agro, didn't even dot until late.

[Azmod]

On some fight after Keledrex (or maybe it was Keledrex), I managed to get banished and called an agro whore by the warriors O_O  I wasn't even attempting to get agro, didn't even dot until late.

Yes, seen this type of thing myself. I as a 66 BST can grab aggro off of a 70 WAR I regularly group with without ever needing to DoT or Nuke, in fact if I do cast I can pretty much 100% guarantee to grab aggro. He is just elemental flagged but not in much elemental gear yet, I have almost no flags at all.
Admitedly I am using fast proccers and self buff to 270 some dex. ( Dedgerex and Immaculate Elven Dagger ) These things seem to fire a LOT more than the suggested rate of 2/1 Procs per Minute, heh. Even using a Stick of Fury I have grabbed aggro if the warriors aggro procs don't fire often enough.

I just picked up a pair of VIC's, but really really hate the claw graphics, but with these un-augged I can fight and let the WAR do his thing unmolested.

[Zesh]

Just thinking out loud, here are some of my thoughts:

(1)  I, along with a number of BST I have spoke with, and any other class for that matter is to have the GoD Spell Runes drop randomly amoung ALL zones in GoD zones. This would allow these spells to actualy be used by people that could use them. By the time most people ever get to go to where these drop, they have little use.

(2)  I think BST Gear at ALL levels needs to be looked at. There is far too few peices of armor that a BST can wear. I can go into the Bazaar anyday and find hundereds of items for any Other class, but when it comes to BST, Im stuck buying VERY overpriced gear because there is so few and demand is high. EXAMPLE: It is SAD when a level 66 Non-EP player has to settle for an AC 28 Leather Tunic. There is a BIG gap in Tunics. Bazaar bought AC 30-50 there is NOTHING I can buy but rather have to be in a raiding guild to get. I'm not asking for the world, but we need better gear for those that can not goto GoD/EP/Time Raids. Toss in a few AC 30-45 Items and help us out in the already poor AC class. Without AAs Id get my arse handed to me everytime I took a hit from GREEN mobs in OoW.

(3)  Our role in groups depends on what classes are there. Example: No Sham, BST is Buffer....in the higher end game, our buffs are Poor. Also if a Sham or chanter is not present, we are the Slowers...Slows tht take 5 casts to land sometimes...Give us a Debuffer or lower the resist of our slows. Either way it goes this takes away from our main purpose in my opinion DPS!! Make it so we can Buff/Debuff in a more timely manner (groups buffs/fewer resists)

(4)  There are too few things that difine us as a unique class. As was already stated, FIX our Paragon line to better reflect the Need of it, SV line of spells should be made more unique Add more Hps or better Attack Rating then BBS, Give Melee classes a choise in what they want, much like Caster classes do with the Cleric/Druid lines (HoV Vs. Bo9 & Kazad)


Ok Im sure theres more I can think of but I think all else was covered but most other posts here. Please don't flame too hard, I'm a relitive virgin here  :roll:


Zesh of Drinal

[Shrouded]

Just thinking out loud, here are some of my thoughts:

(1)  I, along with a number of BST I have spoke with, and any other class for that matter is to have the GoD Spell Runes drop randomly amoung ALL zones in GoD zones. This would allow these spells to actualy be used by people that could use them. By the time most people ever get to go to where these drop, they have little use.

(2)  I think BST Gear at ALL levels needs to be looked at. There is far too few peices of armor that a BST can wear. I can go into the Bazaar anyday and find hundereds of items for any Other class, but when it comes to BST, Im stuck buying VERY overpriced gear because there is so few and demand is high. EXAMPLE: It is SAD when a level 66 Non-EP player has to settle for an AC 28 Leather Tunic. There is a BIG gap in Tunics. Bazaar bought AC 30-50 there is NOTHING I can buy but rather have to be in a raiding guild to get. I'm not asking for the world, but we need better gear for those that can not goto GoD/EP/Time Raids. Toss in a few AC 30-45 Items and help us out in the already poor AC class. Without AAs Id get my arse handed to me everytime I took a hit from GREEN mobs in OoW.

(3)  Our role in groups depends on what classes are there. Example: No Sham, BST is Buffer....in the higher end game, our buffs are Poor. Also if a Sham or chanter is not present, we are the Slowers...Slows tht take 5 casts to land sometimes...Give us a Debuffer or lower the resist of our slows. Either way it goes this takes away from our main purpose in my opinion DPS!! Make it so we can Buff/Debuff in a more timely manner (groups buffs/fewer resists)

(4)  There are too few things that difine us as a unique class. As was already stated, FIX our Paragon line to better reflect the Need of it, SV line of spells should be made more unique Add more Hps or better Attack Rating then BBS, Give Melee classes a choise in what they want, much like Caster classes do with the Cleric/Druid lines (HoV Vs. Bo9 & Kazad)


Ok Im sure theres more I can think of but I think all else was covered but most other posts here. Please don't flame too hard, I'm a relitive virgin here  :roll:


Zesh of Drinal

1.  Untrue.  For our class, specifically, the usefullness of these spells is excellent for raiding, non-raiding, and casual players.  Why, you ask?  For one, they are significant upgrades for those who do not have OOW and will not be seeing future spells or, even, those who are not able to easily attain the spells.  I am level 70, I have been level 70 since two weeks after OOW release, and I group in Riftseekers, on average, about 20 hours per week.  Coupled with raids, I have seen roughly 50 minor runes, 40 lesser runes, 60 muramite runes, 60 greater runes, and 10 glowing runes drop.  Currently, I have 2 OOW spells (two level 68's).  My point being, it does not matter how much you play or how well equipped you are, it still comes down to the luck factor in rolling or if you want to take the time to farm for upgrades.  Granted, two of the upgrades to GoD spells come from the first rune turn-ins, but that is a non-issue because the game is designed to be able to achieve greater equipment/aa/spells with more time put in (aka, the natural order of progression is for spells to gain usefulness the higher the level that they are).

Also, what you are asking is not to adjust where the spells drop, it seems that your point is that the spells are of little use at the level which they are received due to the upgrades in OOW.  Unfortunately, that is asking for changing of the spell levels, chaging of the spells themselves, changing the efficiency of said spells, or nerfing our OOW spell upgrades to be even worse than they currently are.  None of these are practical solutions to the issue suggested in your text because the GoD spells are and always be level 65 spells that will be shortly upgraded, regardless, and changing the areas of which they drop will have no effect.

2.  We have an AC softcap which explains the lower AC on leather items; we are not designed to be MT's.  Obviously, AA's do help significantly and since we have a rather low AC cap, they become more of a necessity as you progress in levels and zones (this is true of EVERY class and it should be this way; if you want to fight harder mobs, you need to devote time to gaining AA's--IMO, AA's are designed WITH casual/non-raiders in mind because they yield awesome awards for being open to everyone).  Another thing of note is that with all expansions, the mobs in later expansions will be tougher than ones in previous expansions.  However, the previous expansions yield easily attainable and gear with less and less people required to kill or with less spent money in the bazaar as people become more powerful, thus having the ability to gain upgrades more easily.  With OOW, equipment upgrades are better than they have ever been because you can now get droppable, EP quality items in the bazaar.

3.  For one, I do believe that our DPS needs to be upgraded.  Our poor DPS and weak utility are, simply put, pathetic.  However, our weak utility allows for easier groupability when shamans/enchanters are not available and, luckily, I have yet to run across anyone that has noticed our pathetic DPS.  Does it suck to have to single-buff people?  Yup, but that is the price that we pay for being a fill-in class that fulfills a multitude of roles, although somewhat weaker.  I believe that our spells do need to be upgraded in power (not the stat ones, we can add plenty of those because ios stacks with all of our other buffs), but the ability lower resist rates is asking for too much as it would eliminate the need for other classes in certain situations.  Personally, in my experience, I can slow most mobs on either the first or second slow without a debuff.  Learn to time the time period between your slows so that your tank has the ability to maintain aggro if you get a resist and you should not see many problems.  The only mobs in OOW I have not been able to slow are the odd 1/15ish mobs in MPG/rift that have an INSANE amount of resists (to the level of even shaman being unable to land any slows after malos), but these are pretty rare and you can simply burn them if your tank/healer can't maintain survivability.

4.  I agree here.  In raids, people take BSS over SV.  In experience groups, people take BSS or the ranger one (name illudes me atm), over SV.  SV is too poor in both HP and ATK to be a consideration for anyone in a game where, at higher levels, the mindset of people is that HP is king.  Personally, I would prefer an upgrade to the ATK portion of SV that makes a notable change in ATK (ie, around 100), so that at least melee will prefer it.  Fero line needs to have something added to it, as has been stated in many posts, and, at least, the mana regen component of paragon should be upgraded or the possibility of having it remove a set amount of counters (poison and disease, maybe even curse but doubtfully since we get no curse removal line) with each tick to increase its effectiveness against AE's on raids.

[negrismorte]

2.  We have an AC softcap which explains the lower AC on leather items; we are not designed to be MT's.  Obviously, AA's do help significantly and since we have a rather low AC cap, ...

[cut]

4.  I agree here.  In raids, people take BSS over SV. ...

The soft cap is not a hard number and continued AC increases show measurable results especially in the new content.  I think the point Zesh was making and one that I agree with is that some of the new armor has lower AC than Velious era gear.  As you point out, mobs get harder as you progress and you need the AAs to be competitive.  The loss of AC does not fit that logic though.

SV is used when you dont have a pali or ranger in group.  With a pali in group, the rog may still want SV as do I and my pet.  With a ranger in group, the tank may want SV for the extra HP over SoT.  It is a compromise spell.

[Oneiromancer]

The SV upgrade, Spiritual Vitality, is only 50 hp less than BSS.  Yes, it's quite a bit less than the BSS upgrade (BBB), but I am sure BBB will be less accessible than the SV upgrade.  Thus the decision might get a bit harder for people...50 hp vs. 67 ATK (after the 1.3 melee modifier I think).

Game on,

[Dummkopf]

Every pally i play with has BBB already, i dont have my new SV yet, so i dont think its really true that BBB is less accessible than SV.

(1) I, along with a number of BST I have spoke with, and any other class for that matter is to have the GoD Spell Runes drop randomly amoung ALL zones in GoD zones. This would allow these spells to actualy be used by people that could use them. By the time most people ever get to go to where these drop, they have little use.

GoD spells are dropping in every GoD zone but Natimbi and Qinimi. So they're accessible, just really needs a bit of farming and that sucks. One is restricted to KT and above, the chaos runes for ancient spells drop even farther in the progression as they should.

(2) I think BST Gear at ALL levels needs to be looked at. There is far too few peices of armor that a BST can wear. I can go into the Bazaar anyday and find hundereds of items for any Other class, but when it comes to BST, Im stuck buying VERY overpriced gear because there is so few and demand is high. EXAMPLE: It is SAD when a level 66 Non-EP player has to settle for an AC 28 Leather Tunic. There is a BIG gap in Tunics. Bazaar bought AC 30-50 there is NOTHING I can buy but rather have to be in a raiding guild to get. I'm not asking for the world, but we need better gear for those that can not goto GoD/EP/Time Raids. Toss in a few AC 30-45 Items and help us out in the already poor AC class. Without AAs Id get my arse handed to me everytime I took a hit from GREEN mobs in OoW.

Especially Omens made elemental quality gear available to everyone and phase 5/6 time like gear to most so there is already a non-raid way to get great items, add in the very nice bps (for bsts Archaic Tunic of Discord) that drop rare in the instanced expeditions and you can really get a very good equipment base at the moment.

(3) Our role in groups depends on what classes are there. Example: No Sham, BST is Buffer....in the higher end game, our buffs are Poor. Also if a Sham or chanter is not present, we are the Slowers...Slows tht take 5 casts to land sometimes...Give us a Debuffer or lower the resist of our slows. Either way it goes this takes away from our main purpose in my opinion DPS!! Make it so we can Buff/Debuff in a more timely manner (groups buffs/fewer resists)

In groups we are additional dps and buffer/slower. Since we never got really upgrades to our buffs or slow we suck there and are not really usefull anymore. In Raids we are a dps class and a buffbot for exactly one buff, that buff at the moment is SA and a very bad upgrade, so that even casters begin to save the buff slot for that and rather get some clickie-selfbuff instead, our dps is lacking so much from our progression problem that we are really just filling up an unused raid spot or taking one away from a usefull class.

[Oneiromancer]

Every pally i play with has BBB already, i dont have my new SV yet, so i dont think its really true that BBB is less accessible than SV.

Okay, I stand corrected.  I haven't even played with any level 70 paladin yet, though (possibly a 69)...so obviously our situations are slightly different.  ;)  I will qualify that for non-raiders, especially in the future when the rune prices drop, the 67 spell is technically more accessible than the 70 spell.

Game on,