Omens utility...

[Tastian]

This is another thread that I'm just going to try to start putting various feedback and suggestions into words.  I'm going to try to keep this thread focused mostly on omens spell list and utility dealing with omens.  This isn't everything and somethings are left out, but the sooner I put things up the sooner more can give me more feedback.  Below are just a list of changes to our omens spells with a brief description included for some.


1)  Tweaks to spells we currently have -

-  Change our level 67 spell "Focus of Alladnu" to be a group version of a hp buff.  Change simply makes buffing a bit more convient and saves the beastlord a bit of time.

-  Increase spiritual ascendance to 11/11 instead of 10/10.  The has had a set progression for awhile and changing it now is uncalled for.  Some have mentioned the desire to see end regen added to this spell, and I need to check, but I'm not sure end regen spells are something they really want to work on balancing at the moment.  

-  Change level 70 ferocity of irionu to be a group spell.  Add in a mod to procs or to double.   Something along those lines that will make the spell very desireable.  This spell much like champion for shaman is a level 70, high mana, short duration, "wow" type of spell.  Currently the only wow factor fero has though is how much it sucks (I'll leave this line out when I actually submitt something lol).


2) Additions to our current omens spell list -

-  Add in a group version of infusion of spirit at that breaks the stat caps like the shaman version of focus does.  Group infusion of spirit was removed from GoD because it was simply the wrong place for the spell.  With omens now the spell would see more use by more casual beastlords that are better able to get a dropable rune than they are to get KT access.  Having this spell break the cap would also add a bit of utility to higher end beastlords that have stopped using stat buffs long ago.  

-  Add a new slow at level 70 that has a -30 resist mod on it.  Beastlords are simply unable to fill the role of main slower in some exp groups to a reasonable degree currently.  Even a bard makes a better slower for some groups than a beastlord does currently because they come with their own resist debuff (just like enc and shm do).  Beastlords don't want to lower resists for every spell they cast or for the spell cast by other people, but we need something that will allow us to land the spells we should be landing at an acceptable level.



Now there are a couple other common options that some have mentioned that I'm still working on and trying to see what people think.  One of the biggys is a new haste.  The problem is our haste doesn't have too much further to go.  We could get a longer duration/group type of haste, but if you look at shaman spells you'll see ToA for them is 50% instead of 60%.  We already have ornate BP that helps with buffing some as well for those that have.  I would really like to focus on a few main changes that would really help us out.  I don't see them giving us 60% or 55% slow and like I said a group or longer duration haste would likely wind up being a downgrade in power.   Please feel free to offer up suggestions on such a spell, but atm I am just not sure haste is something that is likely to see a change.

Another spell that has been mentioned, well not a spell per se, is curing.  We get abolish disease, counteract poison, and no cures for curses.  Some have expressed a dislike of our  fading ability to cure aliments.  I'd like to see some of the suggestions that people actually have in mind for spells along this line.  Would some really like to see a group disease cure type of spell?  Or a crusaders touch type of multi-cure?  Do most of you just think that curing is something to let slide and focus more on buffing/debuffing/dps?  

Also would like to see a boost to perfection of spirit hehe.  It's not a spell, but it is a big issue and I'm writing something up special on that atm, so I'll  just mention it here so people don't get all silly and think I've forgotten about it or anything.  

Okies so I'll finally shush for a bit again hehe.  Please try to keep your responses on topic because it really helps me filter through the information and makes it much easier for me to lure a dev into reading through things hehe.  8P

[Volsykat]

I agree with the problems with Perfection/SA, but at the same time, level 70 is a point where 11/11/11 and +100/10 (or whatever Perfection is at this post-nerf level) isn't really much.  I feel like with OoW, and the way everything has not only been given an upgrade but raised a level (Cleave/Fero in haste spells, overcapping of stats, etc.), just making SD+2 really isn't much of a comparable upgrade to one of our significantly BST-defining spells (and bst crack has always been a defining ability of us, IMO).  Raising the duration of SA to MGB-able is one thing, but as well, it feels like 11/11 is nothing compared to 18k tanks and 12k casters.

Have we reached the point in the game when 11/11 just doesn't cut it and something more like 18/18 would be better?  It certainly feels like it.  We're the only class it seems that didn't get a spell which is not only an upgrade, but an upgrade+effect.

The same can be extrapolated to Perfection, of course, but just raising it to pre-nerf should do some of that.

[Graace]

While cures might be nice... I don't think they quite fit in well enough for where we are today.  Mobs are AEing at fast rates with different kinds of cures needed, we'd need a fast casting multicure to come close only to cast it again 10 seconds later on the same person.  Shamen, druids, cleric, paladins seem sufficient in most cases to take care of it.  I think we we got it, rangers would probably need the same increase since we seem to be aligned similarly to them spellwise.

I'm a big supporter of a self buff at this point, long lasting Fero + SV + SD combined and I'd be happy, casting the group ones  on myself only is annoying (as I'm the only one who seems to use my SV and I usually only fero group members which I'm only in groups half the time anymore since I spend 5 hours a day LFG as I solo some as a Time/Qvic geared beastlord), although if it could be made a self+pet buff (like bond of the wild) it'd be all the better too.  Plus numberous suggestions fo +combat effects, + most any skill augmenters that other classes do not have (ie I'd rather not have accurracy as rangers get it) would be nice.  Actually, I'd not think it TOO out of line to have a self only buff that has all the shamen level 66+ augmenters in it as we being a buffclass, but not taking anything away from shamen.

SA almost appears to need to be closer to 14 or 15 per tick really, as much as I hate to say it, our mana regen of 10 doesn't hold a candle to an enchanter's 28.  Sure we get paragon/perfection but that's not proving too useful either obviously.  But I'll take anything I can get that's an improvement over the sad state of it.

Fero needs something big on it though, I'm not sure how much ATK helps beyond 2k but... I'm often finding myself and others well above 2k depending on the group and always well above on raids.  In the last 3 weeks I've gotten maybe 2 tells for Fero on a raid, when I used to get several.

[Grymlok]

Something that really irks me is our new regen spells.  Stop me if I'm wrong, but haven't we been one step behind on the regen curve compared to the priests?  We had Regrowth (20), they had Replenishment (40).  Now we have Feral Vigor (30) and they have Preserverence/Oaken Vigor (60).  

Give me a break here!  Not only do I have to blow my first Greater Rune on this waste of spell slot.  They've already decided that regen spells were underpowered in the current game, that's why they bumped up the regen rates on the previous batch of regen spells.  But now they give us was Replenishment was pre-upgrade?  Whats up with that?

(Yes, I'm aware that Rangers get the same equivalent spell as us.  IMO its just as retarded for them as it is for us.  WTB upgrade to both classes' regen spell in OoW.)

[TalleyRN]

Well, my suggestions for utility buffs....

1) I don't see why we have to seperate our hp focus and our stat focus...I think it would be alot better if they just gave us Shaman Focus of Soul, or whatever would be most approximate shaman group focus, equal to our new focus spell in hps. This would be much like Paladins getting previous cleric version of Virtue when they lvled up in PoP.

2) Yah, SA needs some type of upgrade....though looking at other classes oow spells(shaman aside), their new buffs aren't much of an upgrade to their previous versions. Still though, SA is sorta a joke, if not an extra point of regen/mana regen, then maybe a massive channeling or meditation modifier could be added to it. Maybe some type of fizzle reducer mod added to it.

3) New Ferocity is just plain gimp, like everyone is stating....it's insulting. Ferocity has always been just as powerful as Shaman Avatar. W/ that said, it needs to be a group buff, can keep same stats as 65 ferocity, but would add a 3-5% spell shield and a 3-5% increase chance to dbl atk. Maybe add a proc to it instead of the mods or some other form of mods.

4) We are, atm, the only hybrid class w/out a snare, besides paladins, and they get a long arse stun and root. We currently dont' really get anything to make up for that in oow. Yah, we get slow and incapacitate, but they haven't received any updates w/ oow and our slow is hard to land in oow, atm. I suggest either adding a snare component to one of our dots (like the diease one so it woudln't be so insulting when we turn in our first lvl 70 rune), or giving us that slow w/ the resist mod on it that was on test for us on GoD and never went live. Something similar to the new slow/shielding tap Shamans get would be nice (gawd, shamans got so many nice spells w/ oow, wth did we get left behind?).

5) Perfection needs to be upgraded back to what it was on test b4 it was nerfed....seriously...wth...this AA was due for a big upgrade.

Pls keep up the good work Tastian, it's seriously not fun for me to log in anymore, knowing that any of my friends that i group w/ is much better off w/ another type of class and i'm just mooching.

[jitathab]

I dont think RGC is something we need as well, many classes already have it leave it to the professional healers. We have no group heals no decent sized heals so rgc just not needed.

I do think a group haste at the current haste level would be a good change though just to save us time in groups. Our DPS suffers because we spend time buffing.

I think your other main suggestions are spot on Tastian and would be happy with what suggested.

[jitathab]

Oh forgot to say. The regen spell, how many actually use it? And what other regens availalbe to others? I never use it because it just fills a much needed buff slot.

[Gourgeous George]

Most of what people say here I agree with. Particularly since I didn't know the mana regen on Chanter spell was 28 now, it stands to reason ours SHOULD be 14. Until Oow, the Bst mana spells have remained 50% of the mana per tick of chanter spells. A drastic shift like SA not only reduces the desire for people to ask for the spell but it also makes it no more useful for regen than Druids hp buff Steeloakskin.

As far as HP regen is concerned, I still use my trusty Coldain Ring 10 for the Attk/regen/DS. The DS part is particularly useful since I use the AHR necklace with it's +8 DS mod. I think that when they adjusted the regen spells and then brought out these new ones, they should've also reviewed the natural regen rate of Trolls/Iksars and other regen items. Given the xp penalty we suffer for our innate regen, the new spell lines make natural regen that much more negligable.

So many things to fix I really feel for you Tastian, I don't think I spend a lot of time LFG because I have such close friends in guild but I am sure glad I am not reliant on my spell line to get groups.

[Hrann]

I'm not sure if any minor upgrade is going to make a difference to our situation.  I agree with all the suggestions that Tastian has, but I think that we need something special IN ADDITION to them.  Maybe a 2 tick group buff that's similar to BF, or increases the damage of nukes for everyone or something.  Some NEW ability that makes people say, "Yeah, Beastlords have that cool spell XXX."

I feel we're painted into a corner here.  There are tons of great ideas to make our class betteer again, but our pets can't get better than mages, our buffs can't get better than shaman, or dps can't get better than half the melee classes, our nukes can't get better than rangers - if we continue trying to make all the other classes happy they will relegate us to the uselessness we once were.  Sorry for the off topic, I can't help it.

[Bengali]

Something that really irks me is our new regen spells.  Stop me if I'm wrong, but haven't we been one step behind on the regen curve compared to the priests?  We had Regrowth (20), they had Replenishment (40).  Now we have Feral Vigor (30) and they have Preserverence/Oaken Vigor (60).

They are trying to maintain the same relative proportions.  Regrowth was 50% of the regen of Replenishment, and Feral Vigor is 50% of the regen of Oaken Vigor, etc.

Particularly since I didn't know the mana regen on Chanter spell was 28 now, it stands to reason ours SHOULD be 14.

Clairvoyance (upgrade to voice of Quellious) has 20 mana regen, an upgrade from 18.

Now on to the suggestions:

1.  Making Focus of Allandu a group buff would be okay.  I hate all single target buffs anyway. :)

2.  SA to 11/11:  I'd also agree with this.  One thing to consider for the people who think even 11 mana regen is gimp -- and that is that there is a mana regen increase from a lot of sources that they need to consider.  They increased the worn mana regen cap by 5, and also are increasing the mana regen from bard songs, druid buffs, chanter buffs, cleric self-buffs, necro lich, paragon/perfection and some item effects.  One of the reasons that the individual spells don't receive huge upgrades is because they add up to a significant increase when considered together.

3.  Ferocity of Irionu:  I'm on the fence about making this a group spell.  on the one hand it fits with my hatred of single target spells but on the other hand if they keep the mana ratio of Irionu v. Champion the the same as Ferocity v. Ferine Avatar, then Irionu would cost something like 2571 mana.  That wouldn't hurt me all that much (what else do I have to spend mana on, anyway?) but that seems like it would be a serious mana hit to a lot of people.  Plus since it would probably be group v1 (like Champion) I would have to end up being grouped with the people who would use it instead of being able to respond to requests for it from outside my group.

I do, however, think that it needs something added to it, becuase in its current state it's really bad.  The mana cost went up by 25%, but only ONE meaningful stat went up (atk) and that's just not worth it.  The sta went up but that's pretty meaningless since it doesn't do anything if you're capped and the resists stayed the same (as did all other resist buffs this expansion).  My suggestion would be to add a Combat effects mod to it.  that could make it a requested buff again.  It would also be more attractive to bards (and beastlords) since it would have a useful effect for those who rely more on procs than others.  I'm not as familiar with combat effects so I don't know how much of a mod would be similar in scope to a 10% damage mod, but I'm sure the devs could figure that out.

4.  Group infusion (breaks stat cap): I'd agree here too.  Just balance it so that the shamans can't argue that undalla + new infusion is better than wunshi + might + fortitude and it's all gravy.  IT MUST BE GROUP, FOR THE LOVE OF QUELLIOUS.

5.  New slow:  I like the resist mod, although I think it should be less mana efficient than Sha's so that it stays balanced.  200 mana might do the trick -- 33% mana increase compared to 20% mana increase for Nihil might also quell arguments that beastlords get a "better" slow.  Heck you could make it a 50% increase in mana (to 225) and would be fine with it.

The other stuff would be fine if we got it (like a combo cure spell) but I wouldn't sweat it a whole lot.  I do think our best pet heal (Mikkily) should also remove poison and curse counters, though -- since more often than not it's my job to heal my pet when things get rough.   I don't see how anyone could get upset if I could cure curses from my pet, since it's not like they will do it when I ask. :)

6.  It wasn't up there, but Mikkily needs a faster cast time, durnit.

[Mojoejojo]

As a shaman main, it amazes me to hear how bad BLs seem to think they have it, and some of the things they think will "fix" the class.  Personally, I love grouping with BLs, because of the incredible versatility they bring.  You have very good mana/hp regen, an awesome pet, serious DPS, and back-up ability for numerous classes.  

One of the things that does bother me, when reading here, is the desire for a slow with a resist mod.  Shamans have wanted somthing like that for years, but the best we get is a seperate, slow casting debuff, after which we cast a slow casting slow.  In a good DPS group, the mob is frequently at 50% or less by the time slow has landed, and then, it's often mitigated.  

As a thought, what would BLs think about getting a seperate debuff, such as Malo, that is un-resistable, although slow casting?  My guess is, that most BLs would refuse to use a 6 sec debuff, even if it was un-resistable.

[Zaramak]

One of the biggest cures I would like to see is pet only curse cure.  Our pet heal cures disease, we have single target disease and poison, but we have no way of curing curses from our pets.  I had a group just yesterday in mpg where the cleric only had the minor curse cure.  We killed taskmaster caikap who chaotica'd the melee including my pet, but with only the minor cure it took 8 casts per to cure the crap and the group was restless by the time it came to my pet and I even had to ask for it to be cured.  It wasn't a huge deal cause dpoc pet regen was faster than the dot but it would have been nice to be at least able to cure my own pet than bother to waste some other casters time to RGC or even worse burn radiant cure especially since I don't have pet affinity yet.

[Oneiromancer]

As a shaman main, it amazes me to hear how bad BLs seem to think they have it, and some of the things they think will "fix" the class.  Personally, I love grouping with BLs, because of the incredible versatility they bring.  You have very good mana/hp regen, an awesome pet, serious DPS, and back-up ability for numerous classes.

Most of the BLs really complaining are high end ones...those of us who don't raid and aren't in the highest end zones don't see the same scaling problems.  What level are you playing at?

As for Slow resisting...I haven't noticed it to be much worse than normal.  I have grouped in MPG maybe 4 times, and every time I am either main slower or I pre-slow for the enchanted (haven't been with a Shaman in MPG yet).  Either at Hunter or Tactics, and I just get the random multiple-resist mob.  When the enchanter was around, half the time I got my slow in before he even cast Tash, so I don't think my experience is colored by that too much.  Obviously I can't speak for RS, or KT, etc.

I probably wouldn't use a 6 second debuff unless things were just so bad that I had to cast it on every single mob.  Even then I'd probably prefer a lower % slow with a resist mod.

Game on,

[Bengali]

One of the things that does bother me, when reading here, is the desire for a slow with a resist mod.  Shamans have wanted somthing like that for years, but the best we get is a seperate, slow casting debuff, after which we cast a slow casting slow.

You're a tad behind the times then.  You should check out Balance of the Nihil.  It's 1.5 second cast time with a -40 resist mod.  75% slow.  It's a shaman spell, and was added last expansion.

As a thought, what would BLs think about getting a seperate debuff, such as Malo, that is un-resistable, although slow casting?  My guess is, that most BLs would refuse to use a 6 sec debuff, even if it was un-resistable.

Many beastlords have asked for a version of malo, and that seems to make shamans flip out whenever it's mentioned.  Many beastlords would definitely use a 6 second debuff (it would be about 3 seconds with spell haste) since it's better than bouncing slow 4-5 times.  We'd also use it because then our cold nukes and poison dots would land more easily.

The reason the focus has switched to a spell specific resist mod is because we are aware of concerns that if we had resist debuffs that would help *other* classes land their spells (like mini-malo would) then we would end up "taking over" a debuffing role from shamans and mages.  A spell specific mod just makes it easier to land a spell that we already have, and it separates those beastlords who worked to get a spell drop from those who are just buffbots.

[Graace]

As a shaman main, it amazes me to hear how bad BLs seem to think they have it, and some of the things they think will "fix" the class.  Personally, I love grouping with BLs, because of the incredible versatility they bring.  You have very good mana/hp regen, an awesome pet, serious DPS, and back-up ability for numerous classes.  

One of the things that does bother me, when reading here, is the desire for a slow with a resist mod.  Shamans have wanted somthing like that for years, but the best we get is a seperate, slow casting debuff, after which we cast a slow casting slow.  In a good DPS group, the mob is frequently at 50% or less by the time slow has landed, and then, it's often mitigated.  

As a thought, what would BLs think about getting a seperate debuff, such as Malo, that is un-resistable, although slow casting?  My guess is, that most BLs would refuse to use a 6 sec debuff, even if it was un-resistable.

all we'd want is a debuff for magic and it'd be strictly to land slow.  50% resist rate in KT, WOS, MPG, etc isn't a good thing when you take into account how high the agro is and chain casting it is just going to get us and the group killed.  While many of us probably wouldn't mind a magic debuff line separate... it wouldn't fit with the class as to how far it's stood up til now.  In 70 levels we have yet to recieve any resist debuff and not a stat debuff since 54.  So when looking at the class as a whole, and how things have lead up to this point, it doesn't seem to fit.

Our DPS up to Time at level 65 is generally fine, post time we fall significantly behind, which has been evidenced many times over.  I've sat LFG for many many many more hours upon OOW launch than I ever have and I'm time geared and a few pieces of Qvic.  It's not my rep as lots of people seem to agree I'm a good player.  In fact we have 6 beastlords in my guild and we all seem to be sitting around much more than before, and the trend continues to some of the other higher geared guilds too, and I'm seeing lots lfg for hours other than myself who are pre-elemental.

Something just needs to be pulled back in-line with the current content and current game.  I refuse to slow in many groups w/o a bard or mage now because I know I'll get killed and get others killed.  If I tried it anyway, I'd just end up looking like a pathetic player.  I tried slowing in those zones for a week (in the rare instance I got a group) and finally gave up.  I just hope that the devs actually take a look at our parses, the things we say and put some consideration into how things need to be, without listening to monks, shamen, mages, and all the other classes that tend to poke at us, rant about us, etc without having all the information.  

ie. Sorry monks, but yes, I'm going to blow away your dps if you're just using a WLK or a REBB I do have weapons and focuses--get some similar gear and you'll make me look like slime.  

Sorry mages but you're not ***<<<<<THE>>>>>*** Pet class--there's two others that depend on pets just as much but in different ways.  Each pet is supposed to be tailored to what the class needs, it's not beastlord's fault that pets don't scale for crap.

Sorry shamen but with 14 classes and only two that were able to slow, made sense to make another.... 3 classes that heal, 3 classes that tank, and only 2 that could slow for anything worthwhile... yes it left some shamen lfg on some servers depending on influx population due to it, but before then countless groups couldn't continue without a slower because there weren't enough.

Now if you'll excuse me, after reading a few other class boards (because I've been sitting LFG and soloing for hours and bored to death) with so much about how they hate our class, how they all need to be better than us in every way shape and form, I'm kinda upset, so I apologize if I've come across rude.

LOL Last night was practically a Q&A session between our beastlords and the rest of the guild.  They'd say one thing about the class and how powerful it was or how great something was... then we'd tell them what things have been like from playing the class first hand and knowing our class inside and out-- they were often "oh... I didn't realize that's how it is".  Still not sure how all the enc and shamen STILL believed our slow lands better than ours...but that's what still seems to be floating around boards some places.