Omens utility...

[tkyn]

On the SD upgrade, I think in addition to 11/11 it should have something else added to it like +10 to max wis, or +100 mana pool or something along those lines.

Add some stamina regen to perfection.

[Nonposter]

Mojoejojo,

You bring up some good points, but I think you are missing the whole picture. Beastlords are baby shamans and monks. The problems that shamans and monks have, beastlords get as well.

You mention problems with slow for shamans? Well guess what, beastlords have those same issues, only more so. We can not do anything that a comparable shaman cannot do. I do not tank any better than anyone that is geared/aa's similar to me except for silk classes (in similar situations). Yes, shamans tank better than me. Shaman dps is higher than mine. Last I checked, my top dps number burning all my disc's and burning mana as fast as I could I did just over 300 dps (level 69, not many dps aa's, ep geared, top 5 weapons). I did close to 280 dps max at level 62, with mainly bazaar gear and almost no aa's. While they are nice numbers, that was full bore, who-cares-how-much-mana-I-spend mode. In normal fights, I am currently in the 150-200 range, and at 62 I was in the 100-150 range.

You mention we can fill 2 roles, slower and dps. I do not get groups as main slower in anything above PoP, as I cannot count on my slows landing. Groups would rather have the extra dps/healer and play without slows than try to let me slow. My dps is below all classes except clerics, and that is only if they are using their mana to heal. You mention that you would gladly take a beastlord in your group, but assuming all equally geared and in zones higher than Tier 3 PoP, one spot left in group, all basics covered (holy trinity or kite), would you pick one over the wiz? monk? chanter? ranger? rogue? pally? sk? druid? war? another shaman?

We are trying to find our place. If our role is to be slower, then we need upgrades, as we are not able to fill that role above Tier 3 PoP level zones. If we are dps, then we need major upgrades, as everyone can out dps us. These are our problems. I do not care to have rogue/wiz dps, or out-slow a chanter or shaman, but I would like to do both of those well enough that I am a good choice when other classes are missing.

[Tastian]

Moj - crisis isn't the word I'd use, but you can't see forest through all the trees atm.  I'm not talking about shaman slowing better, they should, I'm not talking about shaman buffing better, they should.  I don't care monks out tank us, they should.  Step back and look at beastlords as a class in EQ and through the progression of BoT ~> EP ~> Time ~> GoD ~> Omens and look at what has happend.

A beastlord was 3rd best slower, a dps class, with some utility buffs that didn't stack, but filled in in a pinch when other classes weren't around.  We were the worst at taking damage even behind bards.  That was our definition, those were our stats, that is what a beastlord was.

Now in omens a beastlord is a worse slower than a bard.  Whether some groups will take us or not you have people with 100+ days spent on their beastlord with great gear and a sound understanding of the class telling you that they won't take a group in certain spots because they are a liability.  They are a gilded slower.  I won't group in PG unless I have a bard or mage, period.  

As a "dps" we offically fail at the high end.  A measure of being a dps class has always been taking more damage than "tank" classes and putting out more damage.  Atm warriors are out damaging us.  We are a dps class only in that we can put out damage, so can a cleric though lol.  Our relative dps is simply off and it's easy to see because of how progression has gone.  

On to buffs actually take a look at the omens line and see just how much a beastlord gains.  +1hp/mana?  +37 atk for 6.5 minutes for the low low price of 150 extra mana???  Sure you can look at other classes breaking the stat cap, at auspice of the hunter, at crit boosting on enc haste and a bunch of other things, but the fact is our spell list in and of itself sucks.  

I'm a "nice guy" in most peoples' opinion and I'm usually pretty laid back, but some of this is just too much.  When I will remove myself from a guild group so they can pick up a random LFG person as main slower something is wrong.  When a warrior is MT'n for a group and out dps'n me something is wrong.  When I join a group and have almost no buff requests something is wrong.  We are beastlords that atm are rangers with lower dps.  I can't slow, I cast maybe 1-2 buffs and I put out less dps than a plate class /boggle.  

This isn't asking to be better than a warrior, it isn't asking to be a monk, this isn't class envy, do you know the class I envy right now?  Do you know the class I so desperately want to be? A BEASTLORD!!! I want to be a fugging beastlord again.  I want to be a shitty damage absorbing, reasonable main slower, dps dealing, here have a couple buffs since XXX isn't here beastlord.  That's what I want, I want to be the class I've been for the last 3+ years and for numerous other expansions.  When you see in guild chat "Group looking for slower" followed by "group looking for dps" and here you sit LFG and farming tradeskill items something is very wrong indeed.  "crisis" nah I'm not that over the top, but annoying, uncalled for and very worthy of some attention most definitely.

[Zurash Kittenclaws]

During the EPs the beastlords in my guild copped flack for not keeping fero on rogues as much as possible on raids. Not at time/god+ I am lucky to get the odd cleric asking for it as a resist raiser for some aoe mobs.

It is extremely rare for me to give anyone buffs on raids, aside from the buff bot SD role we seem to be good for atm. During the EPs paragon seemed like a godsend for certain mobs, now at time/god+ paragon is not even listed in MGB chains for some of the aoe mobs. It is generally a 'ok you may as well do it now if you like' type MGB request than the "MGB PARAGON NOW" it used to be. People know that with the size of hp/mana pools paragon is no longer as useful as it once was.

I used to be able to get a dps role in groups both in or out of guild, and now I get laughed at if I ask to fill a spot that people want a dps class for, and the sad thing is those laughing are perfectly right. I could continue with more examples but would only be rehashing what others at the upper end are saying alread, so I'll just stop now. :)

[negrismorte]

At your level (of play) Mojo, beasts are still pretty well rounded.  I have no significant problem in PoP encounters with people having equivilent gear.  In GoD, my utility started dropping hard.  In OOW (WoS/MPG) I learned that I don't belong.  My slows are unreliable.  My buffs are only needed in baz/LDoN pick-up groups that tend to die and fall apart quickly.  My pet is good, for causing just enough damage to get me summoned as the train runs for the zone.  I try to get runes (in open roll groups or while boxing) so I can give them to friends who will actually use the spells.  You don't see this Mojo.

As for the other things posted, the biggest suggestions I have have been covered - group fero, fero with affect (cleave, strike thru, etc), slow with modifier, etc.

However, as someone who has been tinkering berserker (another class without a role pre-65+300aas).  These guys have been screaming for ENDURANCE regen.  Most if not all zerker abilities use END as a pseudo mana pool.  Brenlo told their correspondent that END regen items would be in the game.  And, it is not just them as I've been with warriors that run out of END too.

Add endurace regen to the SL line.

The progression on SA is thoughtless.  Look at the history of the line.

SL 200mana 3/3
SR 275mana 5/5
SP 350mana 7/7
SD 425mana 9/9
SA 531mana 10/10

OK, each level pre SA was a 75 mana cast increase with 2 ft/regen.  SA slaps you in the face and goes back to the with the cast cost and regen rate.

EDIT: wanted to add that I have been asked for SD a few times recently - by undergeared toons and people wanting junk buffs  :?

EDIT 2 : removed my math blunder, but the premise of the loss of efficiency and relative power is still consistent.  :oops:

[Mojoejojo]

Yes, shamans tank better than me. Shaman dps is higher than mine. Last I checked, my top dps number burning all my disc's and burning mana as fast as I could I did just over 300 dps (level 69, not many dps aa's, ep geared, top 5 weapons). I did close to 280 dps max at level 62, with mainly bazaar gear and almost no aa's. While they are nice numbers, that was full bore, who-cares-how-much-mana-I-spend mode. In normal fights, I am currently in the 150-200 range, and at 62 I was in the 100-150 range.

Non, I'm not sure where you get your dps numbers, but I dont think mine come close to yours, certainly not your burst DPS.  Bear in mind, these numbers are from my "best case"situation, of root roting a high hitpoint mob, over several minutes, and include 20% focus effect.

Bane:                 460 per tic (if resisted, 20ish second recast time)
Blood of Saryn    350 per tic
Breath of Ulthor   150 per tic
Epic                     80 per tic (variable 11-167 per tic, increases 13 per tic)

Average damage per tic is 1040, so DPS is 173.3, give or take a bit.  This is my BEST case DPS, in a extended encounter, and only after the mob is rooted, debuffed (twice to debuff disease resist, and magic/poison resist), and slowed, since the mob will likely eat me if root breaks and it is not slowed.  Dots last from 6 tics for bane to 26 tics for breath.  Yes, I will eventually get some better dots, but that will raise my DPS to no more than 200 average.  In a group, I am lucky to get a bane in, and usually not for even a full run.  My weak nukes are better, but still they will be less than 100 dps.  Add in dogdog to grouped dps, hasted with mage toys, and he MIGHT add another 40 dps.  To me, 280 DPS sounds great!

SL 200mana 3/3 : total mana/HP 125/125 - must have 60% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SR 275mana 5/5 : total mana/hp 225/225 - must have 22% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SP 350mana 7/7 : total mana/hp 315/315 - must have 11% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SD 425mana 9/9 : total mana/hp 405/405 - must have 5% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SA 531mana 10/10 : total mana/hp 450/450 - must have 18% Ext Dur to recover cast cost

Agree, soloing, this isnt so good, but in a group, multiply these numbers by 6.  I dont love BLs in my group for what they can do for themselves, as for what they bring to help the group.  I do agree tho, that SA should be 11/11.

Wish I had more time to discuss more today, but gotta go.  I'll be back tomorrow.  Much love to all the BLs.

[Tastian]

Your "burst" dps numbers are way off moj.  You aren't including any rains or nukes.  Rains have the silly resist mod built in, but they are also much lower aggro for the damage than something like saryn or even bane once focus is factored in.  Also you seem to be leaving out the wolf pack which can add several k over a short fight.  

Shaman dps isn't really on topic here though lol.

[Xilef]

The progression on SA is thoughtless.  Look at the history of the line.

SL 200mana 3/3 : total mana/HP 125/125 - must have 60% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SR 275mana 5/5 : total mana/hp 225/225 - must have 22% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SP 350mana 7/7 : total mana/hp 315/315 - must have 11% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SD 425mana 9/9 : total mana/hp 405/405 - must have 5% Ext Dur to recover cast cost
SA 531mana 10/10 : total mana/hp 450/450 - must have 18% Ext Dur to recover cast cost

I think your total mana/hp numbers are wrong.
A tick is 6 seconds, 10 ticks per minute, therefore 450 ticks per 45min (duration of SD line). All your numbers are off by a factor 10.

My issue with SA is that 1 more mana up from SD is not worth it because it's the only benefit from the buff.
Sure it's half of Clairvoyance, like SD is half of VoQ. and Bot9 is one less than SD and steeloak is 1 less than SA.
But Clairvoyance is also more raw mana and more wis/int, and Steeloak is also more hp/ac.
1 hp/tick the only other benefit from SA over SD and that's just useless.

Adding endurance would definitively makes is more interesting. 11/11/11 would be nice.

[negrismorte]

Again Mojo, you are missing the point.

At your level of play, beasts are pretty well rounded.

At your level of play is where beasts start to fall off in the power curve.

Mojo, you are also taking this personally.  This is not about a specific toon vs another.  This is about the beast class tapering off in relative ability to the point where they are not a highly viable class in what is now high level gaming - late GoD and OOW.

Also, in your numbers, why arent you meleeing?  Shaman, with equivilent gear and aa's, tank BETTER than beasts.  You get the better slow, better heals, better dots/nukes, you can root and back out if you need a break, etc.  Keep in mind that shamans were one of the first classes to solo Velious dragons (not just because beasts werent around yet either). But, like Tastian said, this isnt really about shaman dps ....

[negrismorte]

I think your total mana/hp numbers are wrong.
A tick is 6 seconds, 10 ticks per minute, therefore 450 ticks per 45min (duration of SD line). All your numbers are off by a factor 10.

Gah, you are right ... that is what I get for trying to post while ducking the boss at work.  :oops:

I thought those numbers seemed really low.

[Tastian]

I think the point about the other effects on the other mana spells is a good one though.  Steeloak offers far more than just its mana regen and clarievoyance is even desired by pure melee doing tradeskills.  We gain 1hp/mana and that is all and the spell has such poor duration relatively speaking.  I MGB SD in PoK a lot and others will randomly jump in and to see 3+ hour buffs and SD at max AA at about 60 minutes is crazy to me.  Even if it had the duration of SV I'd be happier with it because then you could atleast sustain MGB'n it.

[Mojoejojo]

Your "burst" dps numbers are way off moj.  You aren't including any rains or nukes.  Rains have the silly resist mod built in, but they are also much lower aggro for the damage than something like saryn or even bane once focus is factored in.  Also you seem to be leaving out the wolf pack which can add several k over a short fight.  

Shaman dps isn't really on topic here though lol.

Very true, but nukes and rains will break root.  Besides, with the long cast times of shaman dots, between 6 and 10 seconds per, as well as refreshing dots and root, there isnt much time left for (also slow casting) nukes and rains.  Wolf pack can indeed add some good DPS, but is often not wanted, due to mob push, and the in-ability to call them off once sent in.  Soloing, I can send in my pack, but with 2600ish HP each, they get eaten pretty fast, even by slowed mobs.

True, Shaman DPS isnt the topic, but my point was to respond to Nonposter's statement that Shaman DPS is better than his.  My real point overall, is that I agree BLs need some improvements, like making SA 11/11, and that a malo type spell, would not be game breaking.  Some of the improvments some BLs are looking for, however, seem a bit of a long shot tho.  ie, (working from memory of what I read here, so feel free to correct if I miss-state) someone wanted an 18/18 SA, another a -50ish resist mod to slow, and the like.  I know it hurts to go from the king of the hill, to somthing we think is less, but  I still think BLs are a very solid class.  

Raid calls, so gotta run.  :)  Maybe I'll get some elemental boots.  :D

[Strigori]

We are going into asticky spot to make our buffs usefull and desired again.  With the way the game is shaping up(again, this is GoD and OOW, those players still in the t1-3 pop, most of these issues dont effect them much) things need bigger steps than they have gotten.

SA needs to really go more than 11/11 with the size of manapools and manaregen out thre, this isnt much usefull. And the perfection nerf needs to be undone, that was just adding insult to injury with OOW.

The new focus spell needs to be made as a group spell like Testian said.  Making it group isnt increasing it in power any, just conveinece.

70 Fero...talk about worthless, this needs to either be made group, or have the attack upped alot and have one more multiple mods added to it(especially if it remains single target)

Now in response to mojo...you think we have it so great? try walking in our shoes for awhile.  I have no real complaints for PoP.   Even in elemental planes if the slow bounces once or twice, the xp mob attacking me doesnt send me to my bind point.  But starting with GoD we have seen our usefullness steadily decline.  Slow in GoD? better bring a healer just for keeping you alive when slows get resisted.   Quite honestly, this is an advent of the whining shaman have done sence beastlords came into exixtance.  Shaman have it in thier heads that they should be the king slower(which is fine) and no one else should beable to do it RELIABLY(note the specifit word), and this just isnt conducive to an enviroment where no slower = no group. Period.  And have whined to no end that we were taking "thier" groups, like 1 in every 6 players is a shaman. With GoD especially, mobs started to recieve higher and higher resists,  this makes little impact with shaman as they have recieved upgrades to Malo and slapping an unresistable debuff down before slowing isnt that big a deal, and chanters have tash as always.  That leaves us, with no form of debuff out when it comes time to look for a group.  Slowing was always the #1` thing we brought to a group, and through content advancing and our spells remaining, we are now a slower who cant relaibly(note the word again) slow. Should we slow as well as a shaman, nope.  Should we slow as relaibly in an xp situation, yep.   Shaman will always have buffs far and away better than ours.

DPS we are about as close to dead last as you get.  You talk about our "burst" damage. What burst damage? we get an AA that boosts our attack and haste(but doesnt break cap, and who isnt hasted to the cap anyway at this stage?) An AA that raises our damage mod for awhile, but even that is marginal(and a 72 min reuse). And we get a lv 60 damage disc.   We cant mana dump as all our nukes havea  30 sec recast.  Yeah shaman out damage us, you  left out your pet on top off all that testian listed.

I'm not sitting and bitching about things we never could do, im complaining about the things we have always done and are having taken away from us via content changes.  Our dps needs to be fixed, we need to beable to reliably slow in a group setting, and our buffs need to be desireable.  We arnt asking for anything we have not always had.

[Nonposter]

Mojo,

First of all, this is not a rant/attack, Im just trying to understand what I hear. You can pretty much equal my dps by casting 4 dots. Can you stack more than 4 dots on a mob? I hope so, because I know I can. I have been known to stack all my dots (even the low ones) on a mob, just to add more dps.

I do not play a shaman, but I know several, and they say they can maintain 350-400 dps. So, unless I was lied to, something is wrong. I cant parse dot damage of another toon on my machine, so I have to take someone's word for it.

Your 4 dots = my avg dps. Add in rains, dd, more dots, and you will pull away.

And this is not about solo ability. Dps is dps, short fight or long, solo/group/raid. A dot that does 50 dps does 50 dps the whole time it runs, even if it does not run full duration (not as mana efficent, but that is not the topic of this discussion).

[Tastian]

Sustaining 350-400dps would be pretty crazy for a shaman.  I think some people do have mis-information or are just going off what they've heard.  I've parsed shaman dps a lot hehe, just like bst, just like every other class in the game.  I don't know everything by any means, but I can give you a parse right now of say sol ro with shm clearing 250dps for the fight, or FR fight or CoH blob from VT or wizard dps on cyno or all sorts of other things hehe.  

Moj has some learning to do that's all.  Lots still do, heck their are beastlords that still don't totally get what has happend and is happening.  We are still a fun class, and on paper we still look like we should be solid, but in actual play when you see how much more damage a melee does or how little pet focus does.  When you see a beastlord spend over 100AAs in GoD for less of a dps boost than getting a LDoN proc gives you start to think "hrmmmm maybe things are a bit off".  

Shaman have dot aggro problems just like we do and even more so in some cases because they rely heavier on them.  It's really off topic though and if people want to discuss such things I'll even participate if ya's want, but not this thread and not this section please.  Beastlords don't want everything, they don't want to be overpowered.  No beastlord I've talked to wants to debuff better than a shaman or mana regen better than an enc and to be honest if they do ignore them because they are the fanatical minority that every class has hehe (yes I still have to and do listen to them lol, but that doesn't mean you have to).  Read over some of the suggestions and watch for the first draft of the new top 10 list coming out.  If you see things that are really over the top or that you don't think are accurate please comment on them.  Likely though I think you'll see just how reasonable and justified most of the points are and hopefully so will sony.