First draft of our new Top 10 list (6-20-05)

[Tastian]

This is pretty much a total re-write of our top 10 list, so please bear with me.  We still have some time before it gets turned in so now is the time to pm/e-mail/respond with your input. 

The order of things on the list doesn't matter.  Please feel free to PM/e-mail me grammatical suggestions/fixes.  This is a first draft that is getting tweaked at 2am and hasn't been put through a spell checker yet hehe.  No need to clutter the thread with minor corrections like spelling, but please feel free to pm/e-mail me about them.  8) 


1)   DPS

You know we have issues with it and we know you are working on it.  This is just here as a little reminder in case either side forgets.  8)

While looking at dps though please keep burst dps in mind as well as sustained dps.  At the heart of almost all beastlord issues is our division of power and burst dps is no different.  Most classes can use a disc to drastically raise their dps or mana dump beastlords can do neither.  Our nukes are tied to a 30 second refresh, our disc only raises our melee dps which is about 1/3rd of our total dps. 

Possible solutions:  Adjust bestial alignment AA so that it boosts more than just our personal melee dps.  It could auto cast a buff on our warder as well, provide extra focusing for our non-melee dps, etc. 


2)  Ferocity of Irionu

To put it simply this is an extremely weak "upgrade" to one of the only class things a beastlord has.  The line went:

Level 60 -  +25 sta, +100 atk, +50 resist all for 450 mana
Level 65 -  +40 sta, +150 atk, +65 resist all for 600 mana
Level 70 -  +52 sta, +187 atk, +65 resist all for 750 mana

Also going from the 60 to the 65 version we lost the peridot requirement and the refresh went down from 3 minutes to 2 minutes. 

The line clearly was designed as a mana intensive buff that granted both a defensive boost (hps via stamina and resists) and an offensive boost (via the large amount of raw attack).  However, the level 70 version falls very short.  The extra 12 stamina does absolutely nothing in most cases as people are stamina capped.  The resists didn't move at all.  That leaves us with an upgrade that costs 150 more mana to grant an extra 37 atk for a 6.5 minutes base duration.

Possible solutions:  Add some effects to the buff to help make the buff useful and desired again.  An effect to increase proc rate is one of the most popular choices as this would again make the buff desireable to both tanks (more agro procs) and dps (more damage procs).  There are lots of possibilities though and we welcome the chance to discuss and test possible adjustments to this spell.

3)  Spell Casting Reinforcement Mastery

Beastlords were a buffing class from the day they went live.  Hmmmm...ok not the day we went live, but after the first couple rounds of fixes lol.  Fact is beastlords overall have a very large number of buffs:  stats, regen, haste, etc.  Even though overall our buffing has fallen off some in the past few years we still have several buffs that we cast and this AA seems like a very obvious choice for us.  Many wondered why we didn't get it back in luclin as part of our class AAs when others who buffed way less got it.  It just makes sense for our class and is long overdue in many beastlords' eyes.

Possible solutions:  Grant us access to this AA.  Ideally in our class tab, but even as part of the next expansion if we have to wait a bit longer.


4)  AA cost/benefit

This is a large issue that pretty much goes back to our division of power.  Although this isn't just a beastlord issue it does seem to hit beastlords the hardest of all.

For AAs we see beastlords paying just as much for an AA that gives us a much smaller return for the AAs than other classes that can buy it.  For example we see beastlords paying the same number of AA for crit nukes that wizards do, then paying just as much for crit dots as necros and shaman do and finally shelling out just as many AA as monks and rogues do for melee crits. 

Please understand that we aren't asking to nuke like wizards or dot like necros.  What we are saying though is don't make us pay for what we aren't getting.  This situation reminds me a lot of the old hybrid exp penalty.  If we are getting 1/3rd or less in some cases from these AAs as others then please don't make us pay as much for them.

I know some will say "not every AA can be great" or something to that effect.  The bottom line though is that in many cases we simply don't have another choice.  Beastlords have very few class only AAs and many of them (ie feral swipe, see below) are very poor. 

Possible solutions:  Add some combination AAs that reflect our division of power.  These AAs could help our melee and our pet dps, help our nuking and our healing, or any number of other options.  Also consider cheaper versions of some AAs to reflect our lower return on them.  Theft of life verse healing gift is a good example of this. 


5)  Gear options

This is actually a two fold issue.  First is the issue that we are very limited in some options such as healing focus, benefical spell haste, and several other effects.  Also, similar to the issue to #4 beastlords get a smaller return on most items than any other class and we also have more items that we have to aquire in order to achieve our full potential.  Again this isn't just a beastlord issue as some other classes can relate I'm sure, but this is the beastlord top 10.  8P

As an example lets say a beastlord wants to progress their dps.  First they have to get their melee effects such as a haste item, worn atk, some accuracy, a couple good weapons, a cleave item, etc.  Then they have to get some items to help their casting side of dps.  This means grabbing nuke focus, dot focus, mana pres, some flowing thought.  Also we can't forget our warders so top it all off with a pet focus item. 

None of that touches on the other aspects of being a beastlord such as tanking, healing, or buffing.  Simply put for a beastlord to progress by a certain amount they need to get far more items than others do.  Like with issue 4 we aren't asking for more than any other class we simply ask that we stop having to work twice as hard to get half as much.

Possible solutions:  Add focus effects that touch on multiple parts of what a beastlord does.  This is similar to the AAs mentioned above, but give us some focus effects that help our nukes and our heals.  Perhaps add some focus effects that boost our nuke and dot dps.   

Also please look at focus effect itemization, especially at the highend.  Currently beastlords have a very hard time getting benefical spell haste, and healing focus.  Meanwhile, there are over a dozen items that have +cold dmg or +fire dmg on them.

Finally, and most importantly when making beastlord items please remember the class they are for.  There are a lot of items that would be totally over the top on some classes that a beastlord wouldn't even wear or consider an upgrade.  The 2h blunt from MPG trials is a great example of an item lots of people think is great for beastlords, but most beastlords at that point in progression would lose dps by equipping. 


6)  Feral swipe

I think the biggest problem people have with this AA is how much potential it has.  This is one of a limited number of beastlord only AAs, but it unfortunately has so many issues that many beastlords either haven't bought it or don't use it; even after reaching 700+ AA in some cases. 

Possible solutions:  Please increase the range on the AA first and foremost.  There are numerous times where you will be melee'n a mob and trying to avoid AE ramp, but still be out of feral swipes range.  Also please look into the damage/refresh/uhhh everything on this AA lol.  Right now this AA does less damage over time than kick does.  This is one of our few class only AAs and it currently is quite poor in terms of AA spent to dps gained.  We have lots of ideas for changes to this AA and again welcome any chance to discuss/test/tune this AA further.


7)  Dots

Dots for beastlords are another one of those things that look ok on paper, but in actual application don't quite measure up.  There are several issues that really lower the viability of our dots.  One of the biggest issues is the lack of a resist mod on them.  SK, rng, nec, dru, etc all have resist mods built into their dots.  Most beastlords think that our dots don't have a resist mod because they are balanced like shaman dots.  Shaman though have a big resist debuff that can always be used to help them better land their dots. 

The second issue with dots is that focus effects and AA for dots skews the numbers more than many seem to realize.  There are over a dozen items with +cold focus damage on them, but almost no items that give beastlords a similar boost to their poi/dis dot damage.  Also with how AAs are set up beastlords will get SCF to help their nukes long before they get crit affliction to help their dots.  I know many beastlords that even at around 500 AA still don't have crit affliction.   

With all of these factors added up suddenly that extra efficency that dots have on paper quickly dwindles away.  The recent changes to dots went a long way toward making them more useable and for many classes the changes were sufficient, but in order for many beastlords to give a spell slot to these spells some other tweaks need to be made.

Possibly solutions:  Add a resist mod to our dots.  They are on most of the other dots in the game and it just seems like they are MIA on the beastlord dots.  If there is a balance or tuning reason why beastlords should have a much harder time landing a dot than an SK or a rng or various other classes then please let us know as we simply don't understand and again welcome the communication.

Also please look at how focus effects and AA impact dots for us.  This was partially covered by a couple of the other issues on the list, but the almost total lack of dot focus effects for beastlords and the extremely high cost of our dot crit AA really hinder the current viability of dots in a beastlord's spell lineup.  Making it so that some of our exisiting effects (such as the focus on the 1.5/2.0 epics) increase not only our nuke dmg, but also our dot dmg would help a lot. 



That's 7 and there are lots of options for the final few spots.  SA, pet focus, group buffs (focus, etc), have all been brought up.  I'm trying to keep some of the issues as brief as possible because I don't want to write a book or have people reading it get bogged reading it.  I'd much rather a dev comes back and asks for clarification or some more data from us than is in a daze on paragraph 24 of a 14 page manifesto.  *shrugs*  Anyway it's a first draft and I hate first drafts so please be gentle, but be honest and helpful.  8) 

[Jkal_Shihar]

Think you have hit it on the head Tast  :-D

Possibly like you mentioned, making another suggestion group buff related. Not sure if this belongs but was reading another thread around here and even though I did mention a bit in it. Might want to add stuff like LDoN spells. Not sure how though, but maybe a suggestion since after a bit they did make some spells awhile ago avaible on vendors which were once drop spells.

[Shieara]

List looks good to me for the most part.

However, feral swipe seems...umm...how to say it without sounding like a jerk...

Oh well...

Does one aa really deserve it's own spot on the list?  I don't have it, so I can't say how good or bad it is, but is it really such a class-defining feature that it needs its own slot?  Everything else seems so broad, but Swipe just seems kind of narrow to me.  I dunno, that was the only thing I saw at all that looked weird.

[Skratz]

I would say either add a 1-liner about feral swipe in the dps paragraphs, or add other bst only aa like Roar of Thunder which is near useless at 15 minute refresh.

Other then that, looks pretty good.

there are lots of options for the final few spots.  SA, pet focus, group buffs

sounds good for last 3 spots.

[Jili]

What also comes to my mind is some high end equipment from OoW. Lucy shows both Savagesoul gloves and arms to have improved block3. Are the links wrong or are we supposed to have 2 nonstacking focuses on our best armor to be had?

I quested the OoW tier2 bp last night (Could'nt find any link on lucy on it... (No one on EQrankings either... Serverfirst?)).
It has coldfocus for just our ancient nuke, that we can use each 30 secs. Not a very useful focus tbh, and we get coldfocus on loads on other equipment. Hard to miss it if you tried!

The second effect is a pet buff that lasts 18 secs and gives a 20% increase in pet dps. 7 minutes reuse i think, and i doubt it stacks with Growl of panther.

Epic 2.0 have coldfocus and a similar buff to that on bp I think. While most others have an effect that helps all group...

What im trying to say is if you get all highest end BST equipment you are stuck with 2 IB3, 2 Coldfocuses, and 2 petdamage clickes. And i doubt any of them stack.

Im very happy with the hp, shielding focus on BP though =)

Hmm i should have sent this in a pm to Tastian instead maybe... Feel free to move it or delete it if it's not in the right section.

/Jili

[Oiingo]

All-in-all, the effects on OoW tier 2 armor are rather crappy, IMO.  I'd like to see SOE review them and consider changing a few.  I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly not in any hurry to get it, especially given the effects other classes receive (e.g. spell haste on the caster gloves).

As for group buffs, why is this an issue, and why must it continue to linger on our list?  Once a player advances their beastlord far enough, the only buffs that you will consistantly cast which are single target are haste and focus.  Focus lasts a respectable amount of time, and haste is just a pain.  Perhaps just give us the extended buff duration AA, as that would help all of our spells.

Level 70 ferocity: 35 to all resists, +15 CE, +25 accuracy, +125 attack.  Same duration, same recast, same mana cost, still linked to the level 65 fero, no stamina, resists and attack lowered to make it more balanced.  Make it a melee focus that people want.  Only being able to keep it on three people every six minutes should prevent it from becoming unbalancing.  We discussed this general idea in the serverwide chanel last night and it seemed to meet with approval from all those in the discussion.

Along the line of spells, I'm not sure how others feel, but I'd like to see more ancients added to our line up.  Ancient Feral Protection, +5% spell and dot shielding, uses a reagent like a peridot. Set the timer and recast so you can maintain it on three people in a five minute period, the duration of a typical boss fight.

[Tastian]

One thing to remember is that the top 10 list is just a small portion of what goes on.  Other issues/bugs/ideas get submitted.  The devs see and read other threads on boards, etc.  Some of the issues are cut short or semi-sparse simply because I wanted to try keeping things as short as possible at times.  I mean things like dps are very well known and I could and have written pages about it.  I want it noted because it is by far one of the biggest beastlord/game issues atm.  With some of the other items though they've been brought up before so I just want to touch on it so to speak.  Meanwhile some of the newer items I said a bit more and plan to have another write-up that goes more in depth with examples and situatioins if they want more information.

As to some of the responses...

-  Focus effects in general need some work for several classes and it's something I know multiple other classes are bringing up as well.  I've already spoken with a few of the other corrs and the issue will be getting brought up a lot.

-  Feral swipe is much like SCRM I don't want a list where one item is 2 pages all on it's own.  I don't want item 2 to be "beastlord utility" and list fero and scrm and slow and SA and perfection, etc.  Keeping it to one item, BOOM and hope for a quick response.  The top 10 list keeps getting updated so other issues will fill it up and I think this makes it easier to address.  As to how useful it could be think about what some of the first AAs a beastlord buys are once they are done with arch type?  Paragon?  Bestial frenzy?  We have a limited number of class only AAs and many of them could use some tweaking.  If feral swipe became the AA it was thought out to be I think you'd find a lot of beastlords grabbing it within their first 100-200 AA, instead of the 700+ in some cases you see people saying now.  *shrugs*

-  LDoN spells and spells in general get brought up a lot.  LDoN spells even got brought up some at fan faire.  There is a hard level 70 guk mission on test now.  There are some people asking for changes that would make aquiring them easier, but in part the devs don't dislike the idea of people going back into content to get a few spells.  I do see spell aquisition overall as an issue, but I'm honestly not sure exactly how to fit it in.  It definitely gets attention though already.

[Dreead]

Good list Tastian. I would just like to comment on this, i'll try and make this easy to read without having to quote you on everything and just number it.

1) Our melee dps does need to be looked at. BUt with the new DoN growl of the panther and such, we aren't hurting too much imo. I think maybe a way to upgrade the chance to double attack would help significantly

2)I have all runes, 66-70 except fero. And I'm really glad they made it the last turn in on glowing runes, since I pass on all glowing runes that drop. If someone can get an upgrade, a new spell from a glowing, then why should I be selfish and grad it for myself for a spell I will not use.

4) I'm at roughly 430 aa's and I feel like I still need so many more, I'm still missing out on DPS just becuase I don't have 700+ aa's. While my druid is sittign well at around 240 aa's with most "important" aa's covered.

6) I have feral swipe currently, and if there was a way to refund 1 aa that I purchased, feral swipe would be the one. 9 aa's for something I would rather use kick over, because it seems like kick hits more and adds up to more damage. It's a laughable aa, shame.

7) dots- Never use them, unless I have a shaman/mage in the group. THe mana is high, and the resists are ALWAYS, they seem to never land, unless debuffed with malo line. I don't have festering malady in my spell set anymore, and I keep chimera blood up just in case. They are a waste of mana for how many different spells that we have to cast.

Skipped a couple, just cause  I agree with them and couldn't elaborate any further.

[Zanois]

Lucy shows both Savagesoul gloves and arms to have improved block3.

Gloves do indeed have improved block 3, arms however do not, it was moved from arms to gloves to co-incide with other classes have focus effects on gloves and not on arms.

And grats on BP Jili, yeah the focus effect sucks soo many cold focuses out there atm.

[Tastian]

Another thing to remember with fero is that although it's the last rune atm it looks very likely that beastlords will have to get new fero in order to open up our new slow.  That means we have to take that rune and turn in.  I passed on so many runes over the last year or whatever, but if it takes 2 runes to get a new slow then so be it.  Regardless though the level 70 version of one of our only beastlord things shouldn't be such a poor upgrade.

The focus effects are kinda nuts overall and I've got a bigger list that I'm passing on as well.  That is definitely one of the issues that is more of a summary and note in the top 10 list than the full issue.

Please keep the information/feedback coming.  I'll probably leave this up for the rest of the week and then see where we stand.  *shrugs*

[Sorien]

I do not know if our beloved Sony fixed it yet, but I do not see the part about clicking off our pet's buffs on the list anymore.  

[Beckie]

I do not know if our beloved Sony fixed it yet, but I do not see the part about clicking off our pet's buffs on the list anymore.

That isn't fixed yet on the Test server ...

I would like to see it though, with our pets limited number of spell slots, after buying Pet Affinity suddenly you end up with a lot of junk on our trusty warders.

Also, my 2cp ... I'd like to have choices again in pet procs.  Resist type, Hate mod +/-, Stun, Knockback, etc, etc ...  Once upon a time we had a few different spells that were viable to use, there were a couple of rares (Snow/Flame) that you could work for for options ... That was great!  I'd like to go in to different situations and choose my setup a bit rather than using Rellic / Irionu all the time.

[Rarrum]

I don't see the new slow on test as a real solution to anything, more of short-term hack.  It fixes a few specific issues only.

Mainly, it fixes problems slowing in MPG/RS in single groups.  It won't have much an impact on raids, as pointed out in my reply in the thread ( http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,5381.0.html ).  We've lost that raid role, and this won't fix it.  Solo also it will have very limited use, possibly only used if normal slow gets resisted no a pull.

If this is supposed to fix our debuffing role as a whole... well it doesn't even touch on our way-behind incapcitate line of spells.

--

I think something about our pet procs needs addressed as well.  The previous posts pretty much covered that.  We used to choose between several procs based on the situation... now it's always irinou unless your fighting in an ice area.

Along this line, I think the idea Tastian posted about at ( http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,5380.0.html ) could also be added.

The clicking off pet buffs... I'd wait a bit and see if they've "forgotten" before we use up a spot on our top 10 for it.  It is something that needs done though, especially if we do gain back a variety of procs.

--

I'm not sure if they're looking into it right now or what... but AE rampage in places like tacvi are completely rediculous on pets.

--

I think the rest of the list looks good though.

[Tastian]

They mentioned looking into the trash mobs that AE ramp and making sure we could atleast know it was coming so we could potentially keep our warders back. 

What do people think about an AA like slippery attacks, but for pets and AE ramp?  Something that would lower the damage pets take from AE rampage?  The devs don't want pets to be guaranteed 100% and we should have to pay attention and put some effort into them.  At the sametime our pets randomly poofing to an AE ramp from a trash mob is a bit much imo. 

Please keep the ideas coming and as I said I'll try to update the list probably next week with where we stand.

[Nusa]

How about the fact that our 65 GoD heal, Trushar's Mending, is now a MAJOR downgrade to the venderbought 62 heal, Cloroblast? Lootable/quest spells should be worth having at SOME point in leveling.

Also the fact that 62 Cloroblast is noticably more mana efficient than our 67 heal, Muada's mending?