More haste, more mana?

[Tastian]

The issue of haste comes up a lot and has been a top 10 issue several times.  There is still some debate as to how to tweak our haste(longer duration, group version, etc),  but before we nail that down I need to make sure most people understand that an upgrade will likely come with an upgraded mana cost as well.

Are people ok with haste getting a mana boost assuming it gets a stat boost as well?

No way to know exactly what the change might be and of course I don't want to see 3X the mana for 2 more minutes or anything like that.  It seems that some people don't want any mana increase at all though and I'm doubtful that would actually happen.  Before I pursue this issue further I really want to be sure people understand what they are asking for and what might happen. 

[Grbage]

I would like to see a group version haste. When playing slower/buffer in a melee heavy group there might be 4-5 people to haste. So casting 1 group haste spell would be nice. If it is a caster heavy group we hopefully would still have the single target version to cast instead, allowing us to manage our mana better.

If we get a stat boost to our haste, I would expect a mana boost. Do want SOE to keep in mind that if they give us a shammy version (what I would expect rather then them making another haste line) that their spells cost are balanced with the use of canni.

[Oiingo]

If anything, just give us a group version and leave everything the same with a summary increase in cost.  I don't want any more benefits other than avoid the tedious multicast rebuff that has to be done every twenty minutes.

Although looking at Swift like the Wind (and similar) shaman spells, there does seem to be some room for negotiation on duration, especially if we were to receive a group version.

[Chickennuggets]

I would also vote for group, even if we loose the single target.  If you are solo, it won't take all that much extra time to med back the difference, and if you are in a group... well  I can get rid of my hotkey that says "Quit whining... I'm coming around to everbody with haste again... wait your turn."  If you happen to group with a shammy... no worries either way :)

[Bengali]

I care about 2 things:

1.  Duration

2.  Cast time

If either of these two things changes substantially then I probably wouldn't care what else happened to it.  This is within reason of course -- if they gave it a 20 minute recast time, made it cost 1000 mana or lowered the haste on it,  then I'd have issues.  But for the most part, those two things are why I can't stand casting Celerity.

The corollary to this is that if they aren't going to change those two things, then they might as well not even bother as far as I'm concerned.  I don't want to spend 8 seconds casting a group buff every 20 minutes any more than I want to spend that much time casting the single target one.  I will still buy stacks of haste potions at 390 pp per stack and hand them out.  But as long as I don't have to rebuff people every 20 mobs and entire civilizations can't rise and fall in the time it takes me to cast it, then I'll be happy.

I don't care much about single target v. group or whatever, but IF they make it a group buff then it needs to still be 50% haste and it needs to last a decent amount of time.  Also, before any shamans start to burn me in effigy (again), if this happened then I ALSO think that Talisman of Alacrity should finally be changed into something that makes sense, i.e., a GROUP VERSION OF SWIFT LIKE THE WIND (60%).  It makes NO sense to have group buffs that are worse than the single target ones, and as near as I can tell, that's the only buff in EQ that's like that.

[Et^Cetera]

I am all for upgrades, even at mana cost, yet am very concered when you start converting single target spells to group spells. If making a group haste, make it  in ADDITION to, not INSTEAD of.

Converting ST into Group seems on a par with deleting single target Virtue/Conv and having to cast a group spell when only 1 party member needs it. In addition, many BSTs are boxed or operate in groups of 3 or less due to the versatility of the class.  A group only version would certainly be un-welcome to most. Myself included.

Maybe add an AA which turns your next single target buff (not spell) into a group only buff, at double/triple/whatever the cost (but not MGB-able)

[Goradana]

Group haste would really rock imo. Or at least lower the cast time lots. Tried to keep myself, tank, monk, rouge and ranger hasted in a DoN, and with slowing mobs between, its really hard to hit that monk that just runs off to chainpull everytime i try to haste him, lol.

Shamans get
Swift like the wind, single target, 60% haste
Talisman of Alacrity, group, 50% haste

We already have 50% haste in Celerity. Asking for beastlords to get the same spell as shamans might be to much, but getting it at lvl 68 maybe?

If they would add a group haste in similar way, our spell would be 40-45% i guess.

If we cant get a groupspell, make it fast casting at least

If we can get more haste or longer duration, that would rock, but most likely that not gonna happen:(

[Bengali]

Group 40% haste would be totally dumb for the exact same reasons that shaman group 50% haste is totally dumb, particularly when you're dealing with numbers (like these) that wouldn't cap anyone.  You're still gonna have people who will bug you for celerity instead because it has better haste.

The real issue is that there is no reason for shaman group haste to be the only spell in the entire game that is inferior as a group version to the single target version that it "upgrades."  There is no reason to introduce a group haste spell for beastlords and deliberately gimp it just to keep it in line with the same busted progression that shamans have.  If they fix the shaman spell so that it's something that makes sense in the world of EQ, then giving us group 50% haste shouldn't bother them because shamans would have group 60% haste.  This would be consistent with ALL THE OTHER GROUP BUFFS THAT ARE UPGRADES FROM SINGLE TARGET ONES.

If that's too much of a change for them (and for the life of me I can't see why it would be), then they shouldn't even bother with a group spell for us and should just fix the single target one.

[iamweaver]

This is, of course, on the top 10 for shamans, and has been since forever. My real hope is that Shamans get fixed, then we can get Talisman of Alacrity. Enchanter haste should remain marginally better even for folks at the haste cap - both in terms of duration and the cleave bonus.  That's really a debate that rages regularly on the chanter and shaman forums, I am sure - tho the chanters in our guild don't seem threatened by daring to give shammies a group version of the spell that they already cast (as Bengali points out forcibly, and in caps :))

[Nekokirei]

i'm pretty much in line with Bengali--though i do care about a group haste, as like Goradana, keeping a group hasted gets old--and like chicken, /g or /r of "haste wmp" gets old especially when you're going round-robin and rehasting.

to quote a certain DE wizard talking about another buff "what is that sh!t gold?"  :mrgreen:

[Buzak]

honestly, giving group buffs of this kind of a spell sumone have already does in no way increase their efficiency. it just makes it more enjoyable to play. ofcause mana should be increased, the usual x3 if we get duration set up to like 30mins base as well would suit buzak well.
ofcause we wont get this before shammys get upgrade as well, but acording to all reason lets hope it happens soon

Buzak Ubertroll & fluffy ubergater

[Dummkopf]

Im pretty much there with Beng, longer duration and shorter cast time is the prime concern, getting a group version would be a nice touch but not really required. I do the exact same thing btw, buy haste potions in stacks and hand them out to my group since i absolutely hate the cast time and duration on celerity.

It will cost more mana, but if it isnt something in the 1-2k mana range im not really concerned and probably should be ok if they do a manacost increase thats reasonable.

[Biostar]

Enchanter:
lvl 21 Alacrity-40% atk speed - 115 mana (single) dur: 11 mins
lvl 39 Celerity-50% atk speed - 185 mana (single) dur: 16 mins
lvl 47 Swift like the Wind- 60% atk speed - 250 mana (single) dur:16 mins
lvl 53 Anaya's Quickening- 64% atk speed - 275 mana (single) dur: 24 mins
lvl 58 Wonderous Rapidty- 70% atk speed - 325 mana (single) dur: 20.5 mins
lvl 60 Speed of the Blood- 66% atk speed agi 40 ac 12 - 560 mana (group) dur: 30 mins
lvl  62 Speed of Vallon- 68% atk speed agi 52 dex 33 atk 41 - 350 mana (single) dur: 42 mins
lvl 65 Vallon's Quickening - 68% atk speed agi 52 dex 33 atk 41 - 700 mana (group) dur: 42 mins
lvl 67 Speed of Salik- 68% atk speed agi 60 dex 50 atk 53 crit hit %20 -437 mana (single) dur:42 mins
lvl 70 Hastening of Salik - 68% atk speed agi 60 dex 50 atk 53 crit hit %20 - 1260 mana (group) dur: 42 mins

Shaman:
lvl 26 Quickness - 30% atk speed - 80 mana (single) dur: 11 mins
lvl 42 Alacrity - 40% atk speed - 115 mana (single) dur: 11 mins
lvl 56 Celerity - 50% atk speed - 185 mana (single) dur: 16 mins
lvl 63 Swift like the Wind - 60% atk speed - 250 mana (single) dur: 16 mins
lvl 64 Tailsman of Alacrity - 50% atk speed - 750 mana (group) dur: 36 mins

Beastlord:
lvl 60 Alacrity - 40% atk speed - 115 mana (single) dur: 11 mins
lvl 63 Celerity - 50% atk speed - 185 mana (single) dur: 16 mins

Alright you may ask why i wrote out haste for these three classes. It to kind of demonstrate a pattern and to make a point in the process. You'll notice that all classes tend to start out with Alacrity and Celerity. Also typically each lesser class (sorry i don't know a better word for it) gets a haste about 5-10 lvls later than the others. Probably notice as well that each class under enchanter get less haste spells about a 2 to 1 ratio. Whats the point to all this? If bst are to get a new haste spell it would mean the other classes would have to get double. I doubt that would happen since typically new spells are added during expansions. I can see however Sony changing duration of the top haste so it can be MGB for enchanters and increase others to scale with the change. I don't however see any group haste spells in our future for a while since the trend seems to show Swift like the Wind maybe next for us.

[Bengali]

Seeing as how all three classes get Alacrity and Celerity, and both chanters and shamans get Swift Like the Wind, if they just increased the duration of those three spells then then the progression remains unchanged.  I can't speak for other people, but that's really all I've been asking for from the beginning.  And that's what the primary complaint is anyway -- that the spells are too short in duration (and too slow in cast time).  There are now potions available  that eclipse the comparable spell haste (up to 50%) because they last 2-3 times as long and are instant cast.

Talisman of Alacrity still remains as a goofy spell in the overall progression, but they could fix that too if need be.

As for mana cost, it probably wouldn't affect too many beastlords if the cost went up an appropriate amount, because unlike SA, most of us don't have to constantly rebuff people with haste when they die.

[Nusa]

And since we get Celerity as a clickie on Ornate BP, we may not use mana at all. I still keep mine in a bag for the occasional hasting that I do.