More haste, more mana?

[hokarz]

I'd be ecstatic if they just shortened the recast time and made it last longer. I can't really see the benefit of a group spell. If in a raid, the Enchanters buff. In a group, if there are more than 4 people in the group, chances are one of them is a shaman or 'chanter, and I don't need to haste. Three people or less, I'll haste and it wouldn't be a mana savings if it was a group buff.

Just make it last longer, with comparable mana cost, and a shorter cast time.

[iceborn]

To me the simplest way would be to double the duration and the mana cost at the same time. Mind you, if they wanted to give us a group haste and other stats boosts at the same time I wouldn't say no :-)

[jitathab]

If reality was no object I would say - give us talisman of alacrity. exact stats and so on.

And to make Shaman happy, give them more haste and a fancy effect for same mana cost, hence preserving shaman superiority.

I would be opposed to any new spell that is vastly inferior mana wise than the current, or costs a lot of mana. Remember groups are not always made up of 6 mellee people.

If reality was an object, just double the duration for the same mana. i.e. make it the same as i can buy in a bottle for 20 plats.

[Mrcoolies]

 Iam confused why they are even looking at this? surely there are more important things we need changed or looked at? I very rarely get asked for haste for the simple reason that ours sucks. If they were thinking of giving us a better haste spell then I could see the point  /shrug.
:mrgreen:

[Taiglin]

Add my vote for the added duration, single target camp. A group haste would be ok I guess but if we only get one new group spell I would rather it be IoS. The additional problem with a group haste is 1/2 of my normal hunting crew would click it off and am not sure the mana cost for now really only hasting 3 people would be worth it especially when it would need refreshing during combat when mana is already being rationed.

[Bengali]

Iam confused why they are even looking at this? surely there are more important things we need changed or looked at? I very rarely get asked for haste for the simple reason that ours sucks. If they were thinking of giving us a better haste spell then I could see the point  /shrug.
:mrgreen:

They aren't looking at it.  It's just one of the issues that comes up a lot (it's even made the top 10).  In light of people being mad at other changes that we asked for (SA duration, reduced reuse on Roar, etc.), Tastian wanted to start a discussion to get a clearer idea of what type of change (if any) people wanted, and to talk about the tradeoffs ahead of time so that there aren't as many surprises.

[hakaaba]

The only time i EVER use celerity is solo so i'd like to see it geared towards this.  Definatly keep it single target and increase the duration.

Double the duration for double the mana is dumb because there is increased risk of someone dying while it is active.

I'd say double the duration for 1.8 times the mana would be good.

[Kanan]

Here's my deal on present haste:

They have made haste in a bottle have better duration than our present one.  The spell, "Celerity" needs to have its duration modified to be 30 mins or the haste in a bottle gets dropped back to match Celerity.

I will not mem or get a new haste spell.  I will not ever mem haste again.  I have not ever loaded it since I got my ornate tunic almost 2 years ago.  I will never load it again.  I don't even mind the 10 sec, unmodifiable cast time on that haste, SINCE ITS A CLICKY.  If they make my clicky haste "obsolete", I will be quite angry.  If they are going to alter the haste, a new clicky version of the same must be made available, mayhaps as the reward from one of the progressions.  (Tho I'm a lot annoyed bcs I destroyed all of those items as being totally worthless, and they might be making them worth keeping (esp, sadly for me, the cloak, which wasn't that much worse than my present one ><), and yeah, I"m gonna try petitioning on this when I can get back in game again)

[Tastian]

Beng pretty much nailed it.  There are always people that will ask for things without tons of background information or without forethought into what the future might hold.  Especially with DoD and recent SA changes there has been a lot of negative feedback from people on things that were specifically asked for.  I think the case of hastened roar is a perfect example because it was highly requested, it wound up being exactly what some had asked for and even now many boggle over it.  Unfortunatly as a corr in that situation when the dev tells me "well it was highly requested" I have no choice but to agree with them because they are right.

The issue of our haste has come up a lot in the past and it will come up a lot more.  What I want to avoid is a situation where I finally get a devs ear for a bit, mention haste, it gets "fixed" and then suddenly the flood gates open with "omfg the mana cost went up", "omfg it's a new spell", "omfg tastain is hot", etc.  8P

I want a discussion going and to have as big a concencus as possible.  Before a change happens I want some beastlords to have a chance to explain their point of view and to see others.  Once the change hits I want to be able to point back and go, "but ya'll said...". 

Right now the biggest issue I see/hear from people with haste is duration and especially with the haste in a bottle this seems like a very reasonable gripe.  Some ask for group haste, but with how group spells get adjsuted mana wise and the fact it'd likely become a new spell.  Which might effect other requests in the future seems to have issues.  Also the main reason for group haste is to lower the time actually spent buffing.

Lets see:

-  Longer duration
-  "Reasonable" time spent casting

So what do people think about:

Celerity-

Haste - 50%
Target - Single
Mana cost - 385
Duration - 30minutes
Casting time - 6 seconds

This would put the base duration on par with the potions atm, but AA/focus would push the buff further ahead.  The mana cost goes up a bit more than double as the duration almost doubles and we see a reduction in casting time.  The mana cost would easily be argued at anywhere from 350-400 or whatever, but what we might get is anyone's guess.  8P  The casting time gets dropped a couple seconds base, and is still eligable for spell haste/bene spell haste.

The reason I say 6 seconds btw, is because of where other haste spells are at casting time wise. If they changed celerity in this way then they'd really only have to adjust SLTW as well to keep the spell progression basically unchanged.  I would like to see the casting time lowered even more, but other higher level haste spells still have a large casting time.  WR(enc upgrade to SLTW) is 7seconds, augment(smaller haste, with effects) is 5, speed of vallon is 6, etc.

Would most people be happy with something similar to this?  Being single target you don't have to worry about spending mana when it's not needed.  That is when you have lots of casters in group, or are solo'n, or one person died and needs a refresh, etc.  You also don't have a situation where a new rune or anything is needed.  This wouldn't cut into our already smaller omens spell list, and spell could still be available via vender. 

At the sametime it wouldn't take quite as long to buff a group(or collection of people), the duration goes way up so that you could swap the spell as needed or whatever.

Big issues I see some having with these changes are that:

-  The duration base is still even with potions

  -  I think this allows people to choose between spending money on potion or the mana for the spell.  Also those that have the AAs/focus/tribute/etc gain a clear advantage.

-  The casting time is still too much

  -  I fear this is about as good as it might get without totally changing almost all haste spells in terms of casting time.  The drop of 2 seconds per cast is still a 25% drop in casting time, which is pretty sizeable to most. 

-  The mana cost goes up a bit more than just duration

  -  This is just a big unknown as far as what might happen and with changes to casting time as well we might not see an exact % for % change.  I want people to understand that.

What do others think?  As I said there's no guarantee we'll even see a change, but I don't want to be asking for things most don't want.  Would 30 minutes base be ok with most at this point?  Looking at other haste spells(for other classes as well) what else might be reasonable in terms of casting time/duration.  Seeing how some people feel about solo'n/groups with casters/etc do some still think a group spell is the way to go?  Are those of you in favor of a group spell willing to give up a rune and a spell slot for it? 

Good discussion so far I think, so please keep the feedback coming.

[Dummkopf]

Well, that is about what i want from Celerity except probably the duration. At 30 minutes base duration I would probably still buy stacks of potions because its not much of an advantage in duration and the potions are instant-clicky cast. At 35 or 40 minutes base duration it would be more in favour of the spell though (with then 400-430 mana cost).

[Tastian]

It would be on par with the potion for base duration, any focus, AA, tribute would skew that.  Unless those things work on potions which I'm honestly not sure.  As I said at that point you've got some that will still choose to spend the pp over the mana and some that won't.  Also one of the big issues is that there are a lot of other haste spells.  Talisman of alacrity is only 36 minutes base.  Maybe celerity could go to 36 and then talisman could be seen as exactly a group version, but at that point the whole benefit of longer duration is totally lost.  Of course, if talisman were finally changed to group 60% haste then the duration might not be as big an issue and SLTW would see some tweaks as well.

So maybe 36 mins base instead of 30?  That's a huge change in duration though as it more than doubles and remember these changes would cause STLW, WR and most likely others to change as well.  I worry that if the change requests are huge and sweeping then suddenly this goes from an issue of "sure that is reasonable" and a few DB entries being changed to a matter of balancing/checking/adjusting/planning/etc huge sweeping changes that hit multiple classes on mutliple levels which would make it harder to get through.

[Gunzak]

If the cost went to 385 mana for 30 minutes I would probly never cast it again and just use potions.  I find the spell pretty much worthless now so adding a large mana cast to it will just cause me to never mem it again especially when pots are real cheap and are instant cast.

[Khauruk]

I like what you laid out there Tastian.  The 36 minute duration would be nicer though, for maybe straight 400 mana.  Cast time - fine.  Esp. since it'll be cast less often.  I hate when it takes 15 minutes (yes, I am exaggerating) to buff a group up.

I end up being main haster, when I'm not raiding, very often (most of the time), and often end up in melee-heavy groups.  Any extension (keeping mana in-line w/ current ratio) would be far more than welcome.

[cassaya]

It is not likely to be a spell I personally am ever going to use regardless of if it is changed or not since the potion is mana free and instant cast I would be more likely to click one of them rather than bothering with the spell.

But with that said, I think that before you start tossing around 385-400 mana figures for the spell celerity with an increased duration I think you need to stop and consider what a slap that would be to a level 39 chanter that also needs to keep 2-3 people in a group hasted with that same spell. Sure they would benefit from the increase in duration, but at level 39 they are still under the pre 50s INT cap so their mana pool is more restricted.

Realisticly, regardless of the duration change any increase in mana cost would have to be restricted to no more than +65 mana which would make it equal to the 250 mana cost of the 60% haste a chanter would replace the spell with at level 47. Any other change means creating a whole new spell for Bsts IMO.

[jitathab]

The bottle version at 20 plats for 30 mins is tremendous value, only costs me 120 plats an hour to keep my group hasted, which is just pocket change.

I would not find a longer duration spell that costs more mana per minute acceptable, keep it the same ratio or less. Whether it is 30 or 36 wouldnt make much difference tbh.