Wizards

[Bloodgod]

Hey guys.  I have a druid that I always 2-box with my BL.  I'm currently bringing up a wizard to add dps to the group I usually run with.  My wizard is currently 54 and like my druid I 2-box him as an assist to my BL.  My question to you guys is...  When do wizards come into some power (dps) in terms or level, AA's or FT.  I don't raid...probably never will so I'm looking at more of a grouping aspect.  I'm asking this because as of now he's still just a monster leach and more of a liability than assistance.  I've only got FT1 for him but he's got mana regen of 3 from self buffs and another 9 from the BL.  I use harvest and paragon.  With all that he's still OoM ALL the time.  I'm lucky if I can nuke once each mob (using Ice Comet mostly).  

BTW, I'm asking here instead of the wizard board because you guys are knowledgeable on all classes...and other boards tend to spend more time whining than helping people.

[Tastian]

It depends how you classify coming into their own.  In a fast moving exp group your bst will likely out damage your wizard in the situations you mention.  High uptime really lowers wizard dps.

[bugman]

the good news though is once you get 65 with spells and start working on AAs, like crits, your wizard's one nook per mob will be huge. wizards are pretty balanced throughout the power curve at different levels, but like all classes once you can get some gear and AA into them thats when they start to shine. like all classes give it time, there's no class that you can just reach a magical level and suddenly be powerful, it takes AAs, gear, learning what to cast when, etc, so i doubt there'll be any one time when your wiz is suddenly great, but getting levels to get the next spells are generally the most usefull upgrades so give it time.

[Oneiromancer]

My girlfriend's main is a Wizard, and we've grouped together as often as possible since she hit 43.  One of the best things I was able to do for her was buy her a horse, so she could med while we were in the Planes, Grieg's End, etc.  Since meditating gives you what, 1 mana/10 skill points, it's one of the best things a caster can have.  So if you want more mana for your wizard, get him a mount and fight in outdoor zones.  Is there any way the druid can 9 the wizard too?  Of course if your Beast has paragon that will help a lot too (1 or 2 more nukes every 15 minutes).

Just from watching my girlfriend play, if we're fighting mobs that take a long time to kill (say, Droga) she'll try her big nuke and a smaller nuke, maybe a Lure.  If we're fighting quick-dying mobs (Grieg's End for example) then maybe she'll alternate 2 cheap nukes on one mob, and 1 big one on the next.  We finally did a LDoN together for the first time the other night, but there were some other group issues so I wasn't paying as much attention to her casting...I know she went lom a few times (but she also had to Evac us 3 times).

Game on,

[Chubaka]

get tribute FT, at lvl 54 you should be able to get FT4.

[Bloodgod]

Is there any way the druid can 9 the wizard too?

Nope, same account.

It depends how you classify coming into their own

This I'm not sure on  :oops:   I realize that most of the "crazy wizard dps" posts are from raiding time + characters.  I guess I really don't know what to expect out of him.  The guys I group with on a normal basis seem to think that the wizard will be some crazy dps machine.  I just don't see it thus far and I'm trying to take his level into consideration.  I was just wondering if they have a certain lvl or aa's that suddenly boost them.  I know other classes have large jumps at key levels.

[Tastian]

The problem is that lots of people take data from one situation and apply it to another.  With the level of gear you mentioned and the style of play given it's very likely that with high uptime your beastlord will out damage your wizard over an exp session or even over an LDoN.  Wizard dps is quite easy to guesstimate because they basically have a damage over time.  You take their (base mana pool + mana regened during the time) * mana to damage ratio / time_fighting.  If you'd give me a dps figure you are looking at I'll give you a FT/Focus/etc to look for that will get you close to that number.  Bottom line though is that from what you've said already I expect you'll be fairly disappointed in the wizards dps for awhile atleast.  8(

[Bloodgod]

Thanks for the info.  I can use your formula to run some numbers.  I don't really have a target dps number in mind.  I just thought that at 65 he'd be able to out dps my BL.  Normally my group has an up time of close to 100% so I guess his dps compared to others may lack.

Is it at least safe to say that he'll out dps my druid with similar gear?  If not he'd be single target character.  My group doesn't need the druid most times cause we have a cleric for healing, shaman for regen, and mage for DS.  Many times my druid just does a dps role.

[Tastian]

Uptime is huge and gear/AA the beastlord has is huge.  I ran some numbers awhile back before GoD and it was work for a wizard with no resists and me edging several things in their favor to come out with 200dps in my groups with me pulling (~95% uptime).  The wizard will out dps the druid especially if mage is already doing damage shields.  Wizards aren't "bad" dps and they have very controllable dps too.  If you get a 2 or 3 pull the wizard can spike their damage into the 400's and burn it down fast.  Also the wizard can afk for 5 minutes and it won't effect their dps.  A melee that is afk or slacking will lose dps.  I think mostly though it's just a case of people having false ideas about how things actually are.  Around where you are talking the simply isn't going to blow the doors off your bst in dps most likely and won't be doing more damage than the rest of the group or anything hehe.

[feralize]

I'd be very surprised if he didn't outdamage your druid because wiz nukes are the most mana-efficient in the game and wizards also have great self-only mana regen when you take into account two harvests, allegiant familiar (8 mana/tick by itself) and Force Shield. Adding in your beastlord line of mana regen spells he shouldn't be having any problems with mana at 65 w/ 50 AA's or so in regular xp groups.

As ya can see from my sig my 65 wizard has less than 40 aa's but is able to crit with his 65 nuke for 6028 max. And that's just with your basic 5k-cost improved damage 4 item from the bazaar. This happens quite often as he's able to crit around 15% of the time right now with the AA's that I currently have. With AA's in the right places, wizards have more chance of critting than anyone else, around 25% of the time maximum from what I recall.

At level 54 don't bother with Ice Comet. Sure it's nice to see a four-figure nuke every time but you'd be MUCH better off completing the LoY quest for Frozen Harpoon if you haven't done it already. Compare the two:

Ice Comet: 1120 damage for 400 mana: 2.8 damage per mana ratio.
Frozen Harpoon 680 damage for 160 mana: 4.25 damage per mana ratio.

You could get two Frozen Harpoons off and do 240 more damage for 80 less mana. The only downside which may not matter anyway is that FH has a 13 sec recast time. It depends how quickly you're killing stuff but you should still be able to get two off per fight. Agro also seems low on this spell. If for some reason mobs are highly cold-resistant just use Draught of Fire, your level 51 spell, or even try out your Tears line of spells - just don't use it around mezzed mobs :lol:

A horse will REALLY help you out. Hotkey your wizard so that you spend as little time on him as possible. My wizard is very very low maintenance which is what I love about him. Doubling my dps (approximate estimation when two-boxing with my beastlord) for 4 seconds worth of alt-tabbing (two nukes per fight) is really nice  :P

In terms of power landmarks, grabbing Sunstrike or Garrisons Superior Sunder at level 60 will be a big boost, IF you can find them cheap. Don't get both. If the wizard is levelling quickly you may want to just wait until you get Agnarr's Thunder at level 63 which costs pittance nowadays as GSS still goes for about 10k on my server last time I looked. Also at level 60 you'll get Ice Spear of Solist which is like an upgrade to Frozen Harpoon and does 1200 damage unfocused. A good nuke.

[Taiglin]

Something you might be doing that I had to get into the habit of early on with my Druid bot is a pure casting class like your Wizzy isn't going to be casting every time they can. Before I get flamed or anything what I mean is if you are having him cast every few seconds in a fight they will go OOM very quickly. Yes the mobs will go down faster but what I was looking for in damage output from my Druid was a balance between how long was I going to be able to go before I had to stop because of mana depleation and how much damage he was doing. I would guess that a significant portion of a singular fight the wizzy isn't doing anything but medding. If you are of a melee background it might be hard to get into that mentality since we are always in attack mode

For a few months I grouped with a guild wizzy who always seemed to be LOM or OOM. The thing that drove me crazy is he would do things like cast ice comet in a way that it would hit after the mob turned to leave at 20% life and was snared. Or he would ask for a med break or have mana issues when had only gone a relatively short way into an xp camp or LDoN knowing our intended targets where a ways away. He was litteraly burning each and every mob into the ground. Am sure for that time his DPS was terrific but in the end was counter productive. For example in our 50s we would head into the vamp castle in Tenebrus Mountians. He would be low on mana by the time we got to the third named mob (Ren) up on the second floor. This was after me telling him I could solo the joint with my pair and 1/2 the cents were lt blue. Doesn't make for an exciting play style and am sure there are better ways to play em but even now with my Druid at 60 I rarely cast more then 1 or 2 offensive spell per mob (unless the situation/content warrants of course) not counting things like snare. My mentality isn't centered on the current mob but the one 4 from this one.

Sorry so long

[Liga]

Dont forget the stacking problem with Wiz rune/ft buff and our Spiritual Line of regen.

[Bloodgod]

As usual, thanks so much for all the info.  You guys have been a big help and I feel I have a much better perspective on wizards now.

[Xasyn]

Xasyn is actually my alt - my main is a 65th Wizard so I just couldn't resist posting a reply to this one..  :twisted:

I have both bad news, and a ray of light at the end of the tunnel for you.

First, the bad news.  The wizard power curve during the 50's is just about flat.  Most of the nukes we recieve only have a difference in resists rather than more dmg.  There are a few stuns and rains thrown in for giggles, but sadly - the dps you put out now is gonna pretty much be it until lvl 60.

Now, the good news.  From level 60 and on, our dps starts going upwards in nice little bursts, first with our draughts and then with the bigger nukes like Agnar's and Strike of Solusek.  At lvl 65, I finally after long toil and hardship feel like I'm 'powerful'.

As a personal side-note...  Xasyn was born during the later parts of the 50's and early 60's for my wizard, because I just couldn't stand it anymore (or felt like that anyway).  All my friends were getting nice upgrades and being able to progress on to more content - stuff I just couldn't do at the time.  

During the late 50's you'll start fighting mobs that will hand you your butt on silver platter with a nice bow-tie all before you know your in trouble.  These were mobs that they were soloing just fine thank you very much..  it just tore me up that I couldn't do the same without very very special circumstances and alot of boredom (= no fun).  So, going from being able to survive a boo-boo or even nuke your way through a summoning mob - to being an easy lunch for those mobs was a hard pill for me to swallow.

While I can't say I remember the day and hour it happened, I do remember distinctly when the realization hit that I had made it over the hump for my Wiz.  It was when I was talking with some friends at work (we all play) and I was bitching that in my last group the tank just couldn't hold agro and I kept getting the snot kicked out of me no matter how much I held back on my nuking.  It dawned on me then that I wasn't complaining about keeping up with the group or going oom... I *had* mana to burn and the new problem in my EQ life was agro - not mana.  I can tell you I nearly cried tears of joy.  That is the case now with my wizard - I never run oom unless I mean too (or die.. :) ).  Just recently I spent 3.5 hours in SSRA farming key parts and surviving on just PoT9 and my own Harvests/buffs.  I was never FM - but I wasn't oom either and could nuke and CC every fight for a constant pull group.  

I'm not sure what this ramble's point is - but maybe it just goes to show why bst's *feel* 'powerfull' to lots of people.  That curve always keeps going up for us.  Xasyn is only lvl 57 - and when I play him I have fun because I feel like I'm experiencing content for his lvl and being able to contribute, both in groups and solo, at the same time.  I couldn't say that about my Wiz, at least not until I got well into my 60's and had more than a few AA's under my robe.

Well, like I said - I just couldn't resist adding in my 2cp.

[feralize]

Dont forget the stacking problem with Wiz rune/ft buff and our Spiritual Line of regen.

Yeah the epic effect doesn't stack with SD but if SD was available I doubt any wizard would choose epic over SD and Force Shield.