The Beastlords' Den

I am so disatisfied with the AC of our class.

When I was in bazaar bought fashions I could only dream of breaking 1k ac unbuffed and that was so hard to do while maintaining other needed stats like mana pool and hp's.

As I have started to level and get into EP items I find that 1150ac is a hard barrier to break and very time consuming due to loot distribution and supply.

I see the chain drops and even some silk items that have higher AC than what we get and I really feel bad for the up and comiong beastlords.

It will be a HUGE struggle to get over 1500ac and 8k hp's and yet most plate classes can do this in the bazaar for a pretty low investment of pp.

Just once I would like to see a BP with 60ac for us.

Yeah I know it could be worse, but I felt like bitching tonight  :P

Nox

What do you expect plate ac on a leather item?

I do beleive the lack of Beastlord usable high AC items is purely an effort to keep Beastlords (And monks for that matter) from being better tanks than the classes that are supposed to be tanks.
Cloth armor can have the higher AC since all cloth classes get a cap of 145 on Defence so their AC is gonna suck one way or the other.  
It's either this or nerf our Defence, which goes as high as 235 as it is.
But rather than create an uproar, which that surely would, they just make all gear we can easily get to have poor AC.

Works for me, IMHO, I've tanked in LDoNs before and I can say that while it was fun to do that I REALLY don't like doing it since such a large ammount of my focus is turned towards keeping aggro, which strongly limits the ammount of DPS I can output.. plus I'm too lazy to try that hard =P

Hey, what can I say?  Beastlord is one class you can be lazy with and still be good ;)

Simple answer to the question:

What do you want plate ac on a leather class?

Yes, at least as good as bazaar bought plate ac.

I am not taking about 75ac Seru BP's here.

But a 22ac dumul's helm?

My neck has 23ac and you know why? because plate can wear it too.

The toughest god mobs in the game drop a leather based pattern for us to turn in for our class armor and I can buy a Narandi's helm in the bazaar with better AC, but it lacks stats.

So if they would look at what items we can purchase and give us THAT ac and then give us the godly stats that come with EP armor I would be quite happy.

Take a look at leaf twined arms vs Dumul's arms.

Most of us would ooh and aah about the leaf twined and pass up the Dumul's...........

How many other classes would do the same?

Would a paladin,cleric,bard,rogue,shammy or druid pass up thier EP pattern/mold etc to have the leaf twined?

Nada.

It would hardly be unbalancing to give 29-33 ac on our EP items when you see plate and chain classes having 45-60ac items available for most "major" slots.

Nox

Give it some time Nox and all will be better. You have many slots yet to upgrade with Elemental loots as well as Time loot. Its all a matter of time and dedication.

I can self buff to 1200AC.  My guild just became "elemental" last week so I have no elemental/time/GoD armor.  I don't see any problem.

With V and CoR I go over 1500 ac, not that I care much. Beastlords already tank perfectly fine, doesn't matter if our ac is relatively low. When a plate tank is smeared in Time p3 I just hit my disc and/or slow the mob - that's far better than the fact my virtual ac -genital is smaller than some cleric's or paladin's.

Quote from: PojodanIt's either this or nerf our Defence, which goes as high as 235 as it is.

*cough*240*cough*

:)

QuoteJust once I would like to see a BP with 60ac for us.

Boo hoo.

We wear leather, not plate.  Get over it.

Rhyanne of all people I would have to look at your Magelo and say that you make the best point possible.

The only reason why you have 1600ac is because of your items that are not class specific allowing you to get there.

Congratulations.

Noxx

Uhh...what?

Warriors who wear "class specific" gear won't get the best AC possible either.

Let me explain it this way:

Should EP items be the best in the game prior to GoD coming out?

If you say yes to this question lets go a little further.

Should an EP item regardless of class be the best head/arms/wrist/glove/leg/chest/boot for that class prior to GoD drops?

Should the Dumul's armor that we get awarded have more AC than items from 2 expansion before PoP?

I think they should have the best AC and the stats that are on them left as is.

If this were the case we would have items like the Dumul's chestwraps having 50'ish ac like the ancient burrower hide from the Deep. Which would put that on par with say the cultural plate armor that is easily bought in the bazaar.

I am not asking for 45ac arms,50ac legs,75ac breastplate guys.

I am saying that Dumul's armor is "okay". It is not the be all and end all of Beastlord armor if you look at the AC only.

Yeah I have read a million posts myself about people bitching about plate AC, from the monks boards to the ranger boards to even the Paladin boards talking about warriors having an advantage.

That is not what I am saying.

I am saying that EP armor should have had the best stats in the game for a Beastlord and it doesn't because the AC is weak.

The easiest comparison is to plate armor purchased in the bazaar for 5k a slot being in some cases 40% better than our EP item that takes freaking months to get to.

I think that I should be at a higher AC and HP total than any level 55 Bard who has 200k and the bazaar at his disposal.

If you disagree fine.

But please don't turn my words around and make it out like I want the same AC as an EP plate class, because that is not what I am saying.

Nox

That's exactly what I was trying to say too.

With the exception of the Breastplate, Raex's armor isn't the highest AC for Warriors.

Obviously Warriors should be the ultimate in AC, so why should the "same set" which isn't the best for Warriors be the best for Beastlords?

And, honestly, Bards at 55 should have better AC than Beastlords at 65 because Bards wear plate.  I cannot fathom the logic behind expecting a leather class to have an AC even above a weak set of platemail.

Sigh, I wish there was an edit button.

One other note though, a Beastlord will out-tank a bard with an AC vastly higher.  If you did give a BST the same AC as a bard, you've broken game balance as that BST could out-tank a non-defensive Warrior.

QuoteIf you did give a BST the same AC as a bard, you've broken game balance as that BST could out-tank a non-defensive Warrior.

Bingo.

We're not meant to have high AC.  We wear leather... which is like, you know, 1 step above CLOTH.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the AC on our elemental gear.  It's fairly low... well, it's friggin leather.  If you want higher AC gear play a class meant to have it.

Also, AC in itself doesn't really mean anything - it is barely one aspect of how well we tank. And we already tank as well as could be expected - well below plate tanks (war/SK/pal), but near the top (or at the top) of the rest of the classes (especially if ye count all the aspects of tanking and not just mitigation). So whining about one tiny detail of the tanking biznez is meaningless since the whole picture, from our point of view as a class, is in perfectly fine balance.

Beastlords are a avoidance class we are not ment to take the hits that the other classes take our AC is not ment to be high

to get really high AC like Rhaynne takes lot of work HARD work its just not given to ya


i like your sig Rhaynne also /wink

What's AC?. Iz all about the HP baby.

Quote from: TerjynPovar

Quote from: PojodanIt's either this or nerf our Defence, which goes as high as 235 as it is.

*cough*240*cough*

:)

/twitch

:wink:

you need to learn about class softcaps on ac bud.
btw if you want a 50ac chest you can get one off burrower or something like that in luclin. druid in our guild has one.
once you get over 1200 you are all set more or less.

I am satisfied with our AC.

And I love all you guys.

:)

Quote from: Dumptyyou need to learn about class softcaps on ac bud.
btw if you want a 50ac chest you can get one off burrower or something like that in luclin. druid in our guild has one.
once you get over 1200 you are all set more or less.

There is really no such thing as an AC softcap.

In Velious it was believed there was because Warriors could get to a point where the AC was either as high as it mattered (against trash) but couldn't get to a point where it made a difference against high end raid targets.

With the addition of Luclin + PoP + LDoN + GoD, it is now known that AC depends on the target, and there is no point at which more AC isn't better than less AC.  It's not linear, but more AC is still better than less.

Monks have done extensive parsing which shows that AC above 1340 has no noticible impact on their ability to take hits.  I don't know if this impacts any of the other leather wearing classes or if it is tied into the the infamous "nerf".

The parsing I saw like that was against a constant enemy...which would match in what I said perfectly, if your AC vs. the enemies' ATK is high enough you'll get no further affect, but find a monster with a higher ATK and the AC that matters continues to go up.

If they vary the target from greenies all the way through Raid targets (even lower ones like Vindicator) and get the same thing across the board than I'd be confused, because why do things one way for a Warrior but differently for a Monk/Beastlord?

As some parsers like to say the calculations are going to be as simple as they can get away with because of how bogged down processing during a battle would become otherwise.

It true that I use several VT items that are better AC wise than Elemental... its true that some cloth has higher ac than leather....

it does seem wrong to be so - but I doubt it will change.

Right now people are so afraid of a nerf you'll not get support for much in changes - you can thank the great number of  whiners in other classes for the current paranoia. Most of them liked it better when BST were the class everyone joked about ... until we got some help and now noone jokes about us ...

oh yeah it was 1300, not 1200.

If elemental cloth has more AC than elemental leather of the same level- its not right. Just as plate and chain of the same level should always be better AC wise than leather.

Technically the lower AC items should have more of other stats depending on the type - thats called balance.

Compare our elemental to Monk and Druid elemental.  If there is a huge difference, then you have a right to complain.

They had to raise caster armor class due to the nature of how the game is played in the high end.  Earlier in the games history casters didnt have as much power as they do now.

We are a relativly a new class and as such they do not want us to be overpowering. Giving us higher ac in our gear would make us way more.

Quote from: Noxdowne DraggoutI think that I should be at a higher AC and HP total than any level 55 Bard who has 200k and the bazaar at his disposal.

If you disagree fine.

Well, I do disagree.

I think you are focusing on only 1 stat, and ignoring the fact that as a damage dealer you have a companion who can take some damage for you. Having a warder gives an inate AC. When you get hit too much, step back and let the warder tank. Bards can't do that. Warriors can't do that. Monks can't do that. So their AC MUST be higher than ours, or we will outbalance them.

Take your warders AC and add it to your own. NOW how does it look?

I mean, just because he's small, don't forget your gecko. He's tough. He mitigates for you. And he makes bubbles when he's swimming. What else do you want?

QuoteAnd he makes bubbles when he's swimming. What else do you want?

:D  Put a smile on my mug. Good to have happen when work is sucking today. Thanks Kunnar.

Sorry for derail.

wth my pet makes bubbles in the water? i never noticed.

Quote from: Dumptywth my pet makes bubbles in the water? i never noticed.

Prolly got lost in YOUR bubbles!

Another semi related note, If you add our pet's HP to our own HP we can get more HP then most Warriors. :P

QuoteTake your warders AC and add it to your own. NOW how does it look?

/boggle


This statement is wrong on so many levels I am speechless.


Anyways the arguement here is about AC and how Leather should not have decent AC right?

So who can explain this?

Bile Drenched Flesh Robe
MAGIC ITEM  LORE ITEM  NO DROP  
Slot: CHEST  
AC: 50
WIS: +20  INT: +20  MANA: +80  SV FIRE: +10  
SV DISEASE: +10  SV COLD: +10  SV MAGIC: +10  SV POISON: +10
Mana regeneration: +5
WT:  2.0    Size: MEDIUM
Class: NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM IKS FRG


I know the next time I want to work with sharp things or with red hot items I will go for the silk gloves instead of the leather ones.

Nox

Same mob drops:

Ancient Burrower Hide Tunic
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 50
STR: +10 STA: +15 WIS: +10 INT: +10 HP: +50 MANA: +50
SV FIRE: +8 SV DISEASE: +8 SV COLD: +8 SV MAGIC: +8 SV POISON: +8
Mana Regeneration: +5
WT: 1.0 Size: LARGE
Class: ALL except WAR MNK NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

So BST are no better or worse then Int casters here.
This is also a Luclin drop and some luclin drops had insanely High AC but relatively low on other stats when compared to PoP drops.

The arguement I am up against is leather vs other classes AC.

This item clearly shows that silk can have the same AC as leather, some chain has ac the same as plate correct?

So silk can be as good as leather, chain can be as good as plate and leather sucks for AC.

Pretty much sums it up.

Nox

You forgot about this robe (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=31239)

/fans the flames  :twisted:

Thanks Mindlet.

Now I can really cry  :P

Nox

Quote from: Noxdowne Draggout
I know the next time I want to work with sharp things or with red hot items I will go for the silk gloves instead of the leather ones.
Nox

But, like someone pointed out I think, I don't see that it's relevant to compare silk armour to leather armour. It's like looking at a wizard weapon with an amazing ratio and wanting better imo. Thing is, the robe wearers have terrible defensive skills compared to us, no block, cruddy dodge and low caps so their silk armour with its great stats that was listed isn't worth nearly as much as it seems in raw numbers. Otherwise I'm sure we'd see a lot more silk wearers out tanking us... and that's a new one on me! :)

Sure those silk items and leather items just now linked have the same AC, but I know I'd rather be the bst wearing the 50ac leather tunic than the mage wearing the 50ac silk robe when something's beating on me because I'm going to be having a lot better time of it. Stats are designed with the class that's going to be underneath 'em in mind, I'd say.

Anyway, I'm no expert, just my 2cp. I'm happy with how my AC has been so far and liked what I've seen of well equipped beastlords taking hits when they need to.

When you are playing Pen&Paper games do you complain that Cloth armor +5 is not only better than most magical Leather, but better than some magical Chain mail and Splint mail as well?

The point being a few items where silk is better than leather do not say anything about the situation in general.

It'd be extremely petty to expect Leather armor to have a better AC than +5 silk.

Now then, go look at the general trends, and tell me honestly that Silk has better AC than leather.

For example:  Leather elemental chest have 45 AC, silk elemental chests have 35 AC.  Leather ornate chests have 25 AC, silk ornate chests have 15 AC.

These are directly comparable.  A single robe from the burrower has no direct comparison, nor does a single robe from Vulak'Aerr.

QuoteQuote:
Take your warders AC and add it to your own. NOW how does it look?


/boggle


This statement is wrong on so many levels I am speechless.

Uhhhh. Sorry, brain fart. I should not post before the coffee is ready.

I really meant to say that your warder can mitigate by tanking for you. It really does not effect AC.