Top 10 list(10-10-05)...

[recoil silverclaws]

I have to say the dps we put out is disturbing to me. My guild parces our AMV fights everytime we kill him and constently our monks put out around 1k dps im prity much geard the same as our monks weps aa and gear wise i go all out on dps and the best i have ever done is fregin 650 (this is total my dps/warder dps/wolf pet dps)  dont get me wrong tho 650 isent a bad number but i realy wish we could push out a lot more then this. Yes i know we shouldent  be out dpsing monks but would realy like to see us at leasts come some what close to right behind them. Maybe adding triple attack to our aa's or skills would help on this just a thought.

[Kanan]

and how do you parse on Hanvar?

a run or 2 ago, Rar got top damage & dps, by a significant margin.

Its situational, in a lot of respects... we will often outdps a lot of other classes when the burn runs longer.  Rogues have their discs refresh a lot faster than we do & have more options for their discs (I don't know how many they have, but I do know they've got several).  We at least have our regular discs, BA (i know it ain't as effective as regular disc, but its an add'l), and growl.  I've started chaining it, since I finally got unlazy & built a hotkey to cast growl & assist the pet once it allows me to. (occasionally run into issues where I hit my targeting key & then end up on the tank when /assist kicks in, but /shrug ;p)

Our dps situation ain't as dire as it may look.  We're designed to be behind monks & rogues.  How are you comparing to the rangers, whom we are sorta designed to be on level with?  We get a triple attack ability... its called epic clicky on the pet... that and the pet itself are our compensation for not having innate DA.  Granted, its been very poor compensation, and not really been sufficient for a while... but its starting to get a lil better, with spire servant greatly enhancing pet's survivability (had one die to ae ramp so fast last night that I barely was able to notice it happening.  I ain't in DP yet, so not seen the belt yet on my own screen, unlinked from a linkbot ;p), so things are starting to get better.  And the lil hints that the coupla peeps in beta have dropped make things sound a lil better too.  I wouldn't want a triple attack aa.... this would give the devs the illusion that they are helping us more, when the return on such an AA would be minimal.  Its not that major a return for the classes that have it as it is.

[recoil silverclaws]

We and or i dont ever parce hanvar because of the fact that he dose the ae stun  and the slow ae just isent a very good parce when one half the guild is slowed and other half is just standing their stuned wouldent get a far number for how the dps  was for anyclass. I will try and do a few more parces on fights that can show a better picture of the class's and their dps numbers because the strat we use for AMV makes it inpossable to parce them during this fight.

You make a few good points tho, alltho i went back over some old parces of diffrent fights and it seems our rangers  avrige 750-800 dps so if we are suposed to be on par with them maybe im doing something wrong lol ill try and get some more info and parces to try and get a better picture tho



bah damn sig will i ever fix you !!!

[Dummkopf]

Normally we're behind rangers on most fights, there are situations however where we can out dps them. Hanvar of course is a mob where beastlords excel because our BE pet isnt effected by the slow and stun and our nukes do much better than many other classes (not better than rangers of course).

If you want to parse real burst dps try KtH (after the pet phase). It is a very short fight (normally a bit over a minute for us) so it favors max burst dps. AMV is actually not a good parse mob since you have those adds around.

[Lesstor]

An intersting tidbit about DPS:

http://www.goberserker.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1923&page=3&pp=20

Here is the cliff notes version according to zerker class correspondent who was quoting a dev:
- when able to BS rogue dps will trump all
- burst dps will be WIZ
- Zerker dps will come out on top when these 2 conditions are not met

Which I think is a good mix. The question for us tho is where do BST fit in? Personally I think that if BSTs are given the same base dmg (but with monk weapons) as warriors we will be balanced on the dps issue. Keep in mind this is only off our melee. Pet, procs, spells will all go ontop of this base dps. That way we are DPS+ added bonus (buffs, mana regen, pet etc...).

As I understand it now our dps < warrior dps. If I am wrong please correct me.

Thanks.

[Tastian]

"As I understand it now our dps < warrior dps. If I am wrong please correct me."

Our dps is all over the place and that is the problem.  In the life of my beastlord I've out dps'd rogues, and been out dps'd by paladins.  I've topped charts on some mobs and gone months without being top 20(...out of 54.....with 12 clerics!!!).  lol

The real problem with this is that we constantly have individual parts of our dps "balanced", but our total package hasn't once been "balanced" that I can recall.  For instance, our spells increases and pet increases are "balanced" around what others get.  Our mana ratios, dps, refresh, cast times, etc are all "balanced".  Our weapons are all "balanced" around what others have.  This is an issue because for most of a beastlords life the "best" weapon in the game isn't even our best weapon.  The same holds for just about everything else a beastlord can do.  Our heals are "balanced", our slow is "balanced", blah bleh blah.

I know it's hard for a lot of people to see sometimes and I myself didn't even see some of the finer points until I spent literally days parsing out various things.  Our pet dps stays balanced and scales poorly because that's the direction the game goes.  Our melee dps goes up a lot because ratios have gone in that direction.  Proc dps though hasn't changed a lot and stagnated for awhile.  This caused a lot of issues with our dps because to be honest I don't think many knew where I dps was because many beastlords would be equipped differently than many would expect(epic OH, ED over shinai, tacvi mace a downgrade for awhile, etc).

Basically what it comes down to is that at some points we make tradeoffs when no other class does.  A monk "upgrading" to a shinai gains a lot of ratio damage and proc dps stays about the same.  Meanwhile, a beastlord "upgrading" to a shinai sees melee dps go up, proc dps go down and might even see an overall downgrade in dps.

Where a beastlord falls is very specific to that beastlord and their situation.  I wish we had an overall place we fell or a place we knew we should be at and aim for in our discussions.  Unfortunatly, the way the class works and the game progresses it is almost impossible to keep us in any one spot without a lot of extra attention.  In a game with so many classes, so many expansions, etc it just isn't likely to happen.  As such we have fluxuated a ton in our dps ranking and likely always will.  If things were done so that the shifts were smaller then even though we saw our dps numbers fluxuate quite a bit, we could still say in the same relative place.  That is to say even though we might be +/- 50dps, if we are still under X and still above Y our position atleast remains consistant even if our position within that rank varies by a decent margin.  *shrugs*

PS  sorry for the long(ish) answer to a simple question.  I'm in a ranty mood atm.  8(

[Sariss Bloodscale]

I guess this is really a stupid question, but, where is our current top ten list?  I don't see it in this thread, and, while I do see one in the 7/4 thread, it doesn't look to have been edited since its initial post. 

[Tastian]

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=beastlordbalance&message.id=1049

has the offical thread on the sony boards.

After the last re-vamp the list hasn't had many changes.  The list went down to being updated every month instead of every two weeks.  With the expansion coming I expect atleast one or two changes in march.

[Lesstor]

What do you think about my idea with a base dmg for a bst is the same with a warrior? In other words if warriors and bsts both have a 17/20 weapon in each hand they will do about the same dmg purely from swings. Also the same with 2handed weaopns a lets say 50/50 weapon in the hands of a warrior will do the same dps a bst with a 50/50 staff.

From there aa's, gear selection and play style (casting lots of DD's, dots versus doing melee buffs: fero, leopard etc) will determine dps.

[Tastian]

The problem with that like I mentioned is that every other aspect of DPS changes.  If for instance a bst and war did same dmg with same weapons back at old 60, then bst would be doing almost 2X warrior dps.  If you made it even now, then beastlords would be doing maybe 1.25X or whatever(depends a ton).  Melee scales better than pets, and our spells aren't major upgrades like what pure casters see.

In some cases it'd put beastlord ahead by a bit, in others it'd put them incredibly far ahead.

Truth is the tools are already in place to keep beastlord dps inline, but it takes more time and often gets overlooked.  We get AAs, spells, gear, focus, etc.  However, it seems like each of those gets "balanced" individually and the bigger overall picture gets lost.  It's part of the price we pay for being diverse and more unique.  *shrugs*

[Lesstor]

Right, dps scales better thats kind of the idea that I built my suggestion around. Pets are kind of a "one size fits all" dps. In other words similar focus, same level pet a 70 bst from a time guild will do the same dps as a Anguish/Demiplane bst (with the same pet aa's). Furthermore, the added DPS will make us more d esired in group and add more to a raid. Our DPS is not like a rogue's but if we can do decent DPS, buff and toss out the occasional heal it makes our desirability in raids higher.

Where the DPS of one bst versus another bst will differ is in gear and play style. Which in my opinion is a good way to add "flavor" (somewhat uniquness) to the bst class.

One final thing. If BSTS where more like berserkers in the sense that our DPS really comes from our AA's I think that would be agreeable. In other words a good chunk of our DPS will come from BST specific AA's, some of it situational and some of it useful all the time. The downside to this logic is that SOE has proven to be uncreative with AA's at times and just throws 1/2 arse stuff out there (Feral Swipe for example). On this note I think we are  essentially saying the same thing with a slighty different spin:

"Truth is the tools are already in place to keep beastlord dps inline, but it takes more time and often gets overlooked.  We get AAs, spells, gear, focus, etc.  However, it seems like each of those gets "balanced" individually and the bigger overall picture gets lost.  It's part of the price we pay for being diverse and more unique."

[Pakratz]

I just don't understand how hard it can be to make pets scalable.  Tie it to the focus items Duh!  This equates to tieing melee dps to weapons as it is now.  It really irks me to finally get that Qvic focus and see it add.....2 dps to pet.  The weapons ugprade in Qvic added about 25 dps to me and 50 dps to monks/rogues/berzerkers/rangers.   Zuluqua's cloak focus (which cost me 3.5 weeks of dkp to get) added another..... 2 dps.   Monks/rogues/zerkers/rangers got another 50 dps.   Sadly, I expect anguish focus to add 2 dps too.

Seems like a no-brainer to me to make each focus upgrade add 15-20 dps instead of 2.  If I'm doing 300 dps via melee/spells, my pet should be doing more than 100 (+40 or so for procs).   Thats the #1 reason all the other melee classes have surpassed us.  I'm ok having to put in the extra time/effort to get 2 items instead of 1, but for god's sake after I've put in the time, at least make the dps even again.

[Mewzee]

I totally love the idea of Bsts of each race being able to either select a warder of their choosing,
or to choose a new warder graphic according to race. That would really make it fun again!
It would be awesome if that can somehow be like how our toons can change face/fur
ect and take effect once you zone.

I would definately change my pet into a leopard model, or even that bengal tiger! :)

That would spice things up and the look also for the whole class. I love my tigger
but would be nice for a change once in a while.

[Dummkopf]

The problem with that is that our warders are in the general model database and they try to keep that as small as possible since clients have to have that up in every zone. If it would work like the mages monster summoning we could choose one of the available skins in the zone we are currently in but that would mean we change the appearance of our pet every time we zone.

[Shieara]

I just would like to see some of the older models updated, as far as pets go.  For example, I am still pretty happy with my tiger and I think the graphic has stood up well to time, but I feel sorry for Ogres who are stuck with the old bear model.  Always thought the way its lip hung out was ugly.  It's time that got a revamp (should look like the ones in PoStorms imo) and it is something shaman might even back us up on.

Keep in mind when I say update I do not mean change the species of.  If I woke up and Fluffy was one of those Xakra Silkworms I'd probably have to switch back over to my ranger...and I haven't touched her since PoP.