The Beastlords' Den

With the recent news of Oow being delayed and all the fuss it's caused, is the flak Sony is recieving fair?

End game guilds are constantly 'pushing the envelope' when it comes to content. As time (ahem) goes on, content is being chewed through with ever increasing speed. Obvious timesinks such as flagging and trials have been implemented and done little to slow people down.

Sony WANT you to keep playing. If end game content is being finished with ahead of it's intent, what do you expect Sony to do? Sit around hoping Time and GoD enabled guilds will log in and tradeskill, when all they really want to do is explore new zones/kill new targets? Or do you think they'll panic and rush out an expansion in the hopes of keeping said guilds interested? Could you blame them for doing the latter?

I do think expansions are being released way too often - but I also think Sony are just trying to please everyone. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This isn't a rant really, more like a musing. What do you think?

I actually think that EQ is reaching the end of its life. There are a myriad of new MMORPG out there now or nearing completion. I think, and this is just a guess, that people like Afterlife and FoH feel that they have done everything that they wanted to and anything new is really pretty pointless. I myself have stopped playing and started FFXI and have rediscovered the fun that was missing from EQ.

I Think Wolfshead sums it up quiet nicely:

http://forums.gucomics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2057&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=315

Naw, he doesn't sum it up nicely, ill give him that he has some points in there. More GMs and events would be good and more communication would be great, but does he seriously think EQ would have lived as long as it has if it had stuck to the one group events he so dreams it had stuck to. EQ would have died 3 or more years ago if it did because frankly there isnt much changing to 1 group events.

It's the big 'uberguilds' (as he puts it) that have helped keep EQ going for so long in my opinion. Adding aspects to the game to challenge people is what keeps a lot going, seeing new mobs and facing new and interesting encounters that frankly wouldn't be as challenging if everything was for single groups. Also, the 'uberguild' gave a lot of people something to strive for, people thinking i want that many hp, or that much atk or be able to do that much dps. If there wasn't something to strive for a lot of people wouldn't play, because this game is basically the same thing over and over and over again and without something driving you to be better then the next guy then their is no real reason to keep going.

This is a biased opinion though, because i play for raiding. I can't stand exping if i dont have to. Exping is just way too damn boring for me and if it was the only thing to do then i would have stopped playing 2+ years ago.

I have to agree with Urim here. Without raiding i would have quit around 1.5 to 2 years ago.


He has indeed some points, but he forgets (so that he dont destroy his own reasoning) that keys and large raid events are there at least since kunark. And Velious was the best ever? Sure, it had a nice faction system, but factions dont matter really since you can work on them and change who is your ally, not to mention lots of raid events in that expansion as well.

Keys in Kunark are a joke compared to the major pain that pop flagging is. Trakanon idol can be got in about 10 mins with 1 character. HS key takes a bit longer but still is as easy. VP key is a pain but still 90% of it is solo or duoable.

I think if soe had actually bothered to find out what players felt with the flagging thing there is no way it would have been in GoD. They are completely out of touch.

Quote from: UrimAlso, the 'uberguild' gave a lot of people something to strive for, people thinking i want that many hp, or that much atk or be able to do that much dps. If there wasn't something to strive for a lot of people wouldn't play, because this game is basically the same thing over and over and over again and without something driving you to be better then the next guy then their is no real reason to keep going.

Would you, or any other who raids, want a different focus?

For example - a quest systems that you glean exp and items from? Not the traditional go there, kill that - but something that encompasses say, tradeskills, mini events with questing as the games primary focus - one group encounters? IF a game focused on those things, would the Afterlife style guilds lose interest?

What I'm getting at is this - I've always liked one and two grouping. Has EQ satisfied a need in people to have large scale encounters. Do raiders LIKE the 72 man encounters? I understand that WoW and EQ2 will be centred around two group encounters, something I'm looking forward to - but if the player base wants those large scale events then the dev's of said titles will no doubt end up making PoP style expansions once the games mature.

I actually agree with most of Wolfshead's post - I think the comparison of Morden Rasp to a salesman is particularly funny. Verant didn't intend the game to pan out this way - hell, they didn't expect it to last more than a year. It's morphed into a monster and took us all by surprise.

In a way I have to agree with you Lorathir that Sony is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The top end game guilds are very competative. They want to be first serverwide to finish an expansion. In this kind of race, Sony can not possibly put out content fast enougth. Thott from Afterlife wrote an article about this once.

From a business perspective, these avant-garde guilds represent a small but unfortunately high profile segment of the population. I say this because there can only be 1 or 2 avant-garde guilds on any server and if we consider 72 players per guild thats only 7488 players max, but the actual numbers are probably even smaller say 5000 or less. (72players * 2 * 52 servers is 7488) In a way, Sony should push these people out of the game because they play a completely different game from the rest of us.

This is why I don't feel bad that Afterlife and FoH left. Let WoW deal with the headache.

Behind the avant-garde guilds are other less ambitious raiding guilds. These guilds are content at letting the avant-garde banging their heads against all the walls and fix all the bugs or simply aren't fast enougth to enjoy banging their heads against all the road blocks. There are probably 5-10 such raiding guilds on each server.  This would represent 12500-40000 players.

The rest of the eq players would be in more social guilds. I would estimate the number of social players to be around 100000.

These numbers may seem odd since they only account for 150000 players but we have to remember that many people play with more then 1 account. So when Sony claims 450000 accounts I figure there may actualy be 300000 or 150000 players.

Sony has probably done some real demographic research and I wouldn't be surprised if they came to a similar conclusion. If so they know that they have to concentrate on the majority of the player base. GoD was an attempt to do that by making it possible for small groups to progress through GoD in parallel to uber guild raids. However the pay off of such a move won't be evident for months. Unfortunately, GoD also seems to be a major PR disaster but thats a different story.

Consider this, the avant-garde guilds will finish GoD within 6 months of release. The rest of the raiding guilds will finish GoD within a year or 2. How far will the Social guilds get? Who knows, but atleast they have a chance to see most of GoD if they work at it. Which can not be said for PoP in its original form.

It's not raiding per se that's the problem. Raids have always been a big part of EQ, it's where the epic feel comes from.

The problem was raid itemization. The raid gear you got from completing an expansion was so good that challenging you in the NEXT expansion required much tougher encounters. Which dropped gear that was too good, etc.

As I recall, it started in VP, the designers basically dared the players to breach the zone. If you DID get in they promised "GM-quality gear". That should have set off alarm bells right away, getting GM-quality gear is something that should never be under player control.

It became a vicious cycle, and now it's at the point where the designers have to cockblock the top guilds to slow them down at all. What reasonable challenge can you throw at a well-honed, well-geared machine like Afterlife? If you remember, once Rathe was "retuned", 5 guilds beat it in the span of a week.

The other problem with the gearflation is that there's really not that much difference between the top guilds, skill differences have been dwarfed by gear similarities. There's no way 20 guilds should have been in Time BEFORE the next expansion.

Where this affects casuals is that top-end players are accelerating through content so fast, the gap between casual and uber has been increasing. EQ is splitting into two distinct games, and designing for both is going to be difficult. This even effects class balance, I can't count how many times someone as told me I should be soloing in BoT, because they have seen other BSTs tanking the giants NP.

This, of course, ignores the fact that these other BSTs may be Time or GoD-geared. Yet if someone decides that "Beastlords tank too well", no doubt I will get the smackdown also. It's happened before, my wife's 30 Enchanter got nerfed because of what chanters were doing in PoP.

Aneya,

This is just my own personal opinion but I think there are far more casual, single account players than you give credit for.

It's easy to think by reading class message boards every day which attract the more hardcore, informed player that two-boxing is the norm, but most people don't frequent such boards, and probably have never even heard of them.

I think Sony, and Blizzard for that matter, know this which is why the emphasis on casual play is being heavily publicized.

Quote from: BrycI can't count how many times someone as told me I should be soloing in BoT, because they have seen other BSTs tanking the giants NP.

This, of course, ignores the fact that these other BSTs may be Time or GoD-geared. Yet if someone decides that "Beastlords tank too well", no doubt I will get the smackdown also.

I am very far from EP/Time/GoD geared.  My defensive AAs are CA3, CS1, ND1, and PE.  I only just last night broke 1000 unbuffed AC.  I can tank BoT trash no problem, and have done so with cleric, druid, or shaman healing.  I can't tank krigers or nameds, but I have tanked the stormwatchers (the gargoyles up in the stormriders camp).

I have tried to solo in BoT also, on the stormriders.  It's slow going, I have to back out to heal myself, heal the pet, and then come back in again and fight some more.  I have to run the healer's mana to zero before they die.  You get 5-6% AAxp per, but I wouldn't say it's worth it...here is where the Time geared people can do it efficiently, I'm sure.

I think we Beastlords are good tanks...because tanking isn't just about being able to take the damage, it's about being able to keep the aggro.  I think our damage mitigation is the lowest of all melees, and we also are tied with monks for the worst armor.  But we have the aggro generating spells...no taunt, but we can make do without it.

So next time you're in a BoT group and they can't find a tank...volunteer yourself.  Memorize Tainted Breath and you're pretty much good to go, as long as you can get that slow to land...

Game on,

Quote from: feralizeAneya,

This is just my own personal opinion but I think there are far more casual, single account players than you give credit for.

I was trying to illustrate the fact that the hardcore raiding types that push the envelope account for a small fraction of the player base. 5000 vs 100000 or if you prefer 5000 vs 300000.  For the social players my numbers might be way off but the fact remains that the avant-garde are out numbered in terms of accounts but they are a vocal minority.

It is hard to figure out true demographics for a number of reason. All Sony tells you is the number of active accounts. I assume this means people still paying the bills. However, some of these might be mule acounts and some might be inactive players that still pay the bills because you never know when you'll go back to playing eq.  Then there are some of my friends who have inherited 5 or 6 accounts and still pay for them. I chose 100000 as a pesimistic estimate of the number of casual players (assuming each player had 3 accounts). 300000 is more reasonable (assuming casual players only had 1 account) and its probably closer to 350000.

Perhaps we can see the situation as follows. The avant-garde is like a special interest group and they can squawk all they want and SoE won't do much unless they managed to convince casual player about their propoganda. This debate is unfortunately very lop sided because there are very few who fight in defence of SoE and the true interest of casual players. SoE intervened because this was quickly spiraling into a PR disaster.

As for soloing BoT, while I might be able to do it, I wouldn't because its not my idea of fun. So feel free to ignore idiots that tell you to solo BoT and do what is fun for you. :P  However, I doubt they would nerf us for soloing BoT unless they nerfed wizards and necros too for soloing REDS in PoF.

I would /agree with the guesstimate that there are a lot more casual players than 'hardcore' players.. but another thing to consider is the devotion to the game that these people have.

I'd dare say that the hardcore players are much more likely to play the game for a long time to come than a casual player might, and they are also much more likely to purchase upcoming expansions and even additional accounts... so this is probably where SOE's interest lies when trying to appeal to their cash cow portion of the player base.

Everquest will never end for the truly casual player. They will always have new zones that they can explore. It is the hardcore player who burns through content in months after its release, and if they run out of things to do, they will likely quit.
That is the reason that most of the latest expansions were more oriented towards the hardcore players than the casual ones in my opinion.

QuoteMore GMs and events would be good and more communication would be great

On Torvo last week the GM's suddenly announced around 1 est that inny and Tunare had stolen 2 rings and that a GM wanted them back.  I got a good laugh outta this event but was stunned stupid when they announced around 5 est that there was only an hour left to retrieve the rings before they faded.  

What gets me about this event, and this isnt the first time ive seen them do this, is that only maybe 20-30% of our servers population is on during that time of the day.  The other 70-80% starts to log in around then.

Things to consider in my opinion, when looking at the focus re casual and raid focussed players from SOEs point of view might be this.

If you focus on high end raid content as a priority you get to keep your raiders longer - maintenance. But of course people will still leave over time and you are focusing here on what I would guestimate at being the minority. The best you can do is lose these players more slowly.

If you put more of a focus on the low end game and non raid type / social / meaningful play and general work on the game that affects everyone. you get a much better chance of getting -new- players.  Sure they might migrate to the raid type play eventually and get to experience that content too, but by not putting enough focus here your new player base is likely to dry up and the game steadily stagnates. Putting more low level zones in is not something which greatly helps this at all in my opinion ( in fact it may even hurt it ), there's a huge difference between more zones and more content or fun factor. Also I'd say a large number of current players can also be -retained- by focusing on this content ( the non raiding types )

People will always leave EQ for one reason or another. I think the situation should be a balance between retaining players and attracting new players, and I don't think the focus is enough on the latter as it stands. Surprisingly I see a number of time enabled people on usenet saying what amounts to "So they're fixing this stuff that affects me, big deal, I think they should be focusing on the rest of the game"

Just my 2c

There are 3 kinds of people in Everquest:

Those who can obtain.
Those who have attained
Those who wish they could obtain.

If you are casual then likely you fall in to the "Those who wish they could obtain" catagory.

Many Casual Gamers in Everquest feel as though they too should be able to obtain that which is currently out of there reach due to real life matters.

Is it a valid concern? I suppose it is, but on the otherhand offering you the capability to obtain that which 72+ people worked long, hard, sweating, hungry, unwashed hours to obtain easily would demean the hard work those people invested in to getting it.

There will ALWAYS be a caste system in Everquest. There will ALWAYS be Hardcore players and Casual players.

If Casuals wish to close the gap between the hardcore gamer and the casual gamer you would only be hurting yourselves. Hardcore gamers are what drive Everquest and the Development Staff to produce new and exciting encounters which produce loot only the most extreme will ever see.

BUT WHY!?!? WHY CANT WE THE CASUALS HAVE THIS TOO!!!

Because, quite simply, you didnt earn it. Simply saying you 'pay' to play just like everyone else is not a valid arguement. Its HOW you play that matters.

If the most you can do is 15 hours per week in game then you need to set your goals accordingly.

If you play 40+ hours per week then obviously your goals are far different from the 15 hour a week player.

Keep things in perspective is the best advise I can give anyone who plays EQ.


and with that.. I bid you good day :)

I've been wanting to voice my thoughts on these subjects for a while.  I suppose now is the best time to do this.

When I first came to the server I am on now, it was at the bequest of an RL friend who wanted me to come play with him.  He started up a new cleric, I started up my beastlord, and we had some fun together.  Eventually I had more time to play than he did, in the hours that we could play together at least, and I outpaced him to the point that we couldn't LDoN together any more.  I had made other friends in the meantime, and so I went my own way and joined a family guild while he returned to his lofty EP (at the time) raiding guild ways.  (Now of course we can and do group together and have fun again, but that's not the story.)

I'm a graduate student, in Pacific time, on a European server where most of the American players seem to be Eastern time.  I rarely get home before 7, but for a long time I was playing until midnight or 1 every night.  That's not exactly casual, in my book...although it's not as hardcore as some people, of course.  I levelled quickly, but I also went to see new and interesting places on my own and with my guild.  I can't play as much anymore...school/work and other responsibilities are taking their toll.  But I still play for a few hours every night.

Eventually I started to chafe a little bit against the stagnation of our guild.  I couldn't make the weekly meetings, or the weeknight raids, since they started around 8 or 9 Eastern.  I could make the Sunday raids, but they were practically always to Chardok for the cleric epic.  It was fun, but as Kashmiir points out, the jealousy started to set in.

But it's subsided by now.  I've experienced the sickening elitism of the most "uber".  I've decided that I'm never going to let a game dictate my life--I'm going to play and raid when I want to, because if I'm not having fun, why play?  So I am content that the raiding life is not for me.  I can upgrade myself very nicely with LDoN, as a beastlord I can camp some nice items (I've gotten the FT1 item from Torgiran twice now, although I've given each one to a guildmate instead of selling it), and perhaps eventually with open raids I'll be able to access Tactics...maybe even Sol Ro someday?  Not a priority.

So I think that if I had to put myself as one of the 3 types of players Kash mentions, I'd call myself one who "can obtain"...it's just that my standard isn't as high as the hardcore raiders.  But I'd like to think I'm not in the "wish they could obtain" camp anymore...unless I'm just deluding myself.  Only time will tell, I suppose.

But enough autobiographical information.  I respect Kash's points, and I more or less understand the reasons why SOE focused on higher end raiding guilds.  But really, they went too damn far.  PoP and GoD have a very large percentage of their content totally locked off to the casual gamer...entire zones that we will never ever see.  I know lots of hardcore gamers love this...they get Tactics, Sol Ro, the EPs to themselves, without the level 65 "n00bs" bothering them.  Well, what if anyone over a certain level could enter these zones, be able to fight in the beginning parts, perhaps actually complete some of these fun quests like the Gate necklace or the Manuals (up to Advanced at least)...but the deeper parts of the zone, which perhaps have good experience, named mobs which drop better loot, you need the traditional flag for?  Or something similar...so that the hardcore players get the rewards they deserve, but the casual players don't feel like they wasted money on an expansion where over half of the content is locked out to them.

GoD is worse, of course, not the least because it's been revealed that it was tuned for level 70 characters.  Supposedly OoW is going to have only a few zones where flagging is required.  If all the best loot drops there...fine, let the hardcore players have that, they've earned it.  But I will be much happier, as a casual player, if I can at least see some of these zones without using EQ Zone Viewer.

I think they could have done something close to ideal with LDoN.  If the raids had actually been done correctly...where the hardcore raiders actually did them because the risk/reward ratio was reasonable...then the corresponding ratio of casual to hardcore content might also have been reasonable.  If you got raid LDoN points, then even casual raiding guilds might have some incentive to do them, especially with the smaller number of classes required.  As it is I've been so happy to get "thrown a bone" to go on the two 65 high risk LDoNs I've been on.  Couldn't use any of the drops, but I certainly held my own as a beastlord very well...was the main slower both times.  Died on the second one because the tank died on Enrage and I didn't notice in time to turn off my auto attack...I would have survived for sure if it weren't for that, hehe.

Anyway, I'd like to think that most casual gamers don't want to have everything that the hardcore gamers have given to them on a silver platter.  We just want to not be ignored.  If it's possible for us to reach 65, but to have most of the zones intended for level 65 people closed off to us...that's pretty discouraging.  I'm really hoping that OoW helps in this respect...zones where anyone can experience in, give us some of that much needed variety...and then have the flagged/raiding zones for the players that want to do that.  If they really wanted to, SOE could pull that off.  Here's hoping.

I apologize for the rambling, and really, I promise I'm not bitter...I'm just trying to share some perspective.

Game on,

Elemental Planes are not friendly to the casual gamer, even for XP.

Once rings are up and the raid begins forming thte last thing these guilds want are a bunch fo folks 'xping/training' there raid. This can happen very easily.

Generally speaking when a guild zones in to kill the rings most people who are exping either move out of the zone (out of respect) or move VERY far away.

Do you actually think this would happen if this was a group of casuals? Hell no, they would like "We were here first!" and "TRAIN THEM!". People in this day in age in Everquest have very very little 'morals' or 'respect'. I personally have almost totally lost all respect for 'the average player'.

Beggers, no skills, cheaters, trainers, disrespectful, d00dz, immediate saticifaction whiners. This is how I see the 'average' Everquest player these days. I began playing back in July 1999 and was in a well known guild called Fires of Heaven. Back in the day 'honor' mattered. Your reputation meant something. These days? None of these things apply.

About the only saticfaction I get these days is being places where these people are not.

Now Im certainly not going to stand up here on my pedestal and say "ALL NEWBS SUCK!". There are some damned fine non-raiding, newer players out there who have honor and skill, but let me tell you something... you my friend are RARE.

Im old, tired and putting up with the young whipper snapper players just makes me glad I have a place to go that they cant.

Hell sometimes I go to Plane of Time A just for the pure enjoyment of total SILENCE.

---hehe

I just think people need to understand that there are places you will NEVER see and items you will NEVER obtain. Learn to live with this. Always remember there is trickle down... appreciate your high end guilds as when they conquer content you feel the trickle down of mudflation and obtain items you thought you would never see... all because of the high-End Raiders.

Man, getting things off yer chest is kinda neat. Glad I made this forum :)

Quote from: LorathirWould you, or any other who raids, want a different focus?

For example - a quest systems that you glean exp and items from? Not the traditional go there, kill that - but something that encompasses say, tradeskills, mini events with questing as the games primary focus - one group encounters? IF a game focused on those things, would the Afterlife style guilds lose interest?

I'm still really interested in opinions on this. Would the end gamers prefer the way the end game is set up atm - large scale guild encounters, or would you prefer end game quest content and two groupable targets?

Lorathir,
One of the compelling items in raiding is working together with a large scale force where if even 1 complete heals misses you all die.

Tight knit teamwork on a large scale is fun... sometimes very frustrating, but mostly very fun.

Would I like to see single person, single group and even 2 group instanced zones for both loot and content?

Hell yea, what am I? Retarded? --hehe

id like to mention the basic fact that yes the money is the issue here a casual player should get just as much attention note that doesnt mean the same loot from each xpan as the hardcores do once the hardcores start paying per hour of play i will gladly give them a larger right to attention from the devs etc but until that point they can shove it hell i play around 2 hours every day i could play up to 4 but im still level 44 now if i were to play only for xp and grind all the time etc in my 4+ years of play i could have my char up to lvl 65 with hundereds of aa's and be decked in time gear but im not because i play the game at a much more relaxed pace i still pay the fee shouldnt i get an equal amount of content per expansion as the uber players do?

also id just like to say that the way the game is running right now mudflation really doesnt exist at all once you get into pop everything in pop and god is nodrop which means raiders are replacing nodrop gear with more nodrop gear which means nothing trickles down oh yeah btw trickle down econnomics suck@$$ it generally ends up with the rich richer the poor poorer and the middle class poorer.

Quote from: gnomersyid like to mention the basic fact that yes the money is the issue here a casual player should get just as much attention note that doesnt mean the same loot from each xpan as the hardcores do once the hardcores start paying per hour of play i will gladly give them a larger right to attention from the devs etc but until that point they can shove it hell i play around 2 hours every day i could play up to 4 but im still level 44 now if i were to play only for xp and grind all the time etc in my 4+ years of play i could have my char up to lvl 65 with hundereds of aa's and be decked in time gear but im not because i play the game at a much more relaxed pace i still pay the fee shouldnt i get an equal amount of content per expansion as the uber players do?

In terms of raw content levels levels 1-50 have 10 times the content/quests/mobs to kill then 55-65 zones/content/quests.

I think in this case your arguement has no grounds to stand on.

Quote from: gnomersyalso id just like to say that the way the game is running right now mudflation really doesnt exist at all once you get into pop everything in pop and god is nodrop which means raiders are replacing nodrop gear with more nodrop gear which means nothing trickles down oh yeah btw trickle down econnomics suck@$$ it generally ends up with the rich richer the poor poorer and the middle class poorer.

Again, your arguements holds no water. There is a TON of 'tradeable' loot in GoD. Go to the bazaar and see for yourself.

Also many new tradekskill related items were introduced in GoD.

PS: Elemental Loot is no drop, but many new tradeskill armors/rings/earrings were introduced.

Quote from: Kashmiir BattlekatI just think people need to understand that there are places you will NEVER see and items you will NEVER obtain. Learn to live with this.

I'm just trying to say that there's a balance to be struck.  I've already said I'm okay with there being places I will never see and items I will never obtain.  I just think that, especially with GoD, they made too many of them.  There will always be the person who won't rest or stop whining until they have everything.  Then there are the more reasonable players who just want...well...something reasonable.

Even though I wasn't around for it, I've heard enough stories...in the past, zones such as Veeshan's Peak, Sleeper's Tomb, and Vex Thal were what differentiated those who were hardcore from those who were casual.  They were a relatively small percentage of their various expansions...everyone got something out of the expansion, but those who were the best got correspondingly more.  PoP broke that mold, and unfortunately that seems to be what is expected now...a disproportionately large percentage of the expansion that is reserved for the elite player.

I'd like to think that a good deal of casual players are reasonable--that they know that they'll never see certain zones or own certain items.  I think if SOE struck a better balance between locked out content and open content then more people would be...well...content. ;)

Game on,

As I tell all my friends:

Everquest is a game of dedication. You will get exactly what you give it.

If you give little. You will get little.

and vice-versa.

Oneiromancer,
Im uncertain what it is you are looking for I guess.

In terms of GoD there are zones you can play in and loot that can be obtained.

You 'can' get in to Kod'taz but it would be difficult. Do your 4 sewer trials and then put together an extremely competent group of 6 for Tipt and Vxed. These foks dont need to be Elementally flagged, but they should have top notch Bazaar gear at a minimum and even then... they best be on there toes :)

I see where you are coming from though. Repeasing an expansion which you purchase and then obtain almost zero content from it other then some AA and a new city to tradeskill in would blow.

Quote from: Kashmiir BattlekatAs I tell all my friends:

Everquest is a game of dedication. You will get exactly what you give it.

If you give little. You will get little.

and vice-versa.

EXACTLY!  This is why casual gamers like LDoN so much!  We can put the time in, by beating the adventures...and then we get some nice loot out of it!  Stuff that we probably won't ever upgrade, if we are truly casual!

But I'll say it again, but perhaps differently: if the newer expansions (besides LDoN) had a greater gradient of dedication/reward, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  In terms of the hours I play per week, I view myself as halfway between totally casual and hardcore.  But I am basically limited to the casual rewards for my dedication.  Again, LDoN alleviates that somewhat.  PoP and GoD, it seems to be pretty much all or nothing.  A better curve dedication/reward would be great, and would hopefully make everyone happy.

Game on,

Quote from: Kashmiir BattlekatIn terms of GoD there are zones you can play in and loot that can be obtained.

Yeah, I have soloed in Natimbi and Qinimi.  I got my +20 hp augment off of Tumia Lehio, after tons of kills...but that camp was trivial even before the zones were tuned down.  My guild has grouped in Riwwi but they didn't do too well, hehe.

QuoteYou 'can' get in to Kod'taz but it would be difficult. Do your 4 sewer trials and then put together an extremely competent group of 6 for Tipt and Vxed. These foks dont need to be Elementally flagged, but they should have top notch Bazaar gear at a minimum and even then... they best be on there toes :)

And I think that I could get this done...if I was on a more populated server.  It's a double-edged sword...I have had so few horror stories with trains or general a-holes compared to people on other servers, but trying to get a group can be very tough.  Just the other night I got my first invite to a GoD group ever...although I didn't get the expansion for a few weeks or so...and it folded because the tank logged off and there were no others lfg.  We ended up doing two LDoNs, but this difficulty in groupage is a common occurrence on my server...even for a Saturday night.

Game on,

GoD can kiss my ass.

I can't even pronounce the GoD damned zone or mob names half the time.

Overlord G'et The F'u'kow'Tahe're

Quote from: Kashmiir Battlekat
In terms of raw content levels levels 1-50 have 10 times the content/quests/mobs to kill then 55-65 zones/content/quests.

I think in this case your arguement has no grounds to stand on.

the problem is that you cant use any of that content due to the fact that there isnt a large enough influx of new player or alts to give people locations to group the basis around the game is now get to 65 start aa's and raid then have fun. at least thats all ive seen out of it hell most people who are lvl 65 and have 100's of aa's still havent seen a 1/4th of the content available because it isnt worth while to go to because it just sucks now

the problem with content is as oneir stated that with raid content it isnt a time=content/loot etc. deal you need to have like 4 hours just to do a raid someone spreading his time out in 1hour periods but playing say 5hours total a day still wont get the same benefits and the 4hour per day single session raider

Quote from: gnomersythe problem with content is as oneir stated that with raid content it isnt a time=content/loot etc. deal you need to have like 4 hours just to do a raid someone spreading his time out in 1hour periods but playing say 5hours total a day still wont get the same benefits and the 4hour per day single session raider

Thats is VERY true man.

If Sony implements the single person instanced LDoN Type adventuring zone this 'might' alliviate some of the stress our casual players are seeing.

Im of the opnion that if you are willing to spend the time Adventuring and save enough points then you should be able to obtain Elemental Quality loot if you are the right level and apply the right amount of time/effort in small blocks.

Im just big on effort versus reward... also known as "Risk versus Reward". If you apply the effort you should get paid for it. If you apply little to no effort then you should get little or nothing in return.

Sorry to say this Kash, but you couldnt be more wrong.

There's only one kind of people playing EQ; people that want to be entertained and have fun playing a game. In a game that has no end, no clear defined goal, getting some sense of accomplishment through advancing your characters power is part of the fun, but its not a means to an end by itself. The 'goal' of EQ, if you could call it that, is to be able to take on bigger challenges, explore new zones. And that's the same for casual and hardcore gamer alike.

If you play less, its only natural that your progression is slower as well. Contrary to what you believe, i think most casual player know this and accept this. I certainly do, i know a play a entirely different game then hardcore players and i don't mind that at all. But when character progression is so slow that you feel you've reached a ceiling, and are unable to do new stuff, that is a problem, because it takes part of the fun out of the game. To keep casuals entertained, you dont need to provide them with an easy way to get Time-level gear, you only need to provide them with new content and challenges.

And now we come to the heart of the 'uber'-mentality that has slipped into the game. As you said yourself:

QuoteHardcore gamers are what drive Everquest and the Development Staff to produce new and exciting encounters which produce loot only the most extreme will ever see

This is exactly the problem. Those hardcore gamers are like what, 5% of the player base? It should be the casual gamers that drive the Development Staff to produce new exciting encounters. But they don't. Instead, everyone just seems to assume that seeing what amazing loot drops in Time+ zones will be an incentive for casual players to follow exactly the same route as the hardcore gamers. But if you start a new char today, and join a casual guild, it'd take you another 5 years to reach PoT, and thats assuming no one in the guild quits before that time. In reality, a casual guild will never reach PoT because few people stick around that long. In the meantime, the 5% hardcore gamers are devouring the high-end content and pressuring SOE to release new content for them. SOE in turn does their their best trying to slow them down with timesinks. But what is a 3 month timesink for a hardcore guild is a year-long timesink for a casual guild. Gosh, what fun.
The result is that the content behind the timesinks is effectively blocked from 95% of the player base. That's fine, as long as there is enough fresh alternate content to prevent them getting stuck in the same old content, and slowly but steadily getting more and more bored until they quit. Note that i said alternate content, not alternate routes to the same content. There doesnt have to be time level gear in that new content, just a steady pace of upgrades to existing gear attainable for a casual gamer.
But there isn't, or at least not enough. How much new raiding content has been added for casual guilds in the past 3 years compared to high-end raiding content? Certainly not in a 95:5 ratio. Instead casual guilds are expected to follow the same route as hardcore or 'uber'-guilds, but at a much slower pace, or via alternate routes that require even more playing time. Even the non-raiding content is affected by it. Because the gap in gear-quality between casual and hardcore has become so huge, what is a challenge for one person has become totally trivial to another. LDoN partly solved this with 'hard' and normal missions, but in GoD all open content is 'hard'. The balance is lost.

You say that simply saying you 'pay' to play just like everyone else is not a valid arguement to have earned to right to obtain the same level of gear. You're absolutely right. But it does give the casual gamer the right to ask to be kept entertained with new content and new challenges at the same rate and level as the hardcore players. The rewards in terms of gear quality shouldnt be the same, but the entertainment value does.

SOE made the mistake of letting the hardcore gamers pressure them into this mentality. Now they are between the rock and the hard place, as Aneya put it, but they let themselves be taken there so i'm not feeling too sorry for them. And what I've read about the summit meeting so far isnt changing my mind about that either.

/hugs

just btw tho ldon point scaling sucks ass you cant afford jack until like 40s-50s and thats when doing hards

Maybe there should be more options post 50 for someone who doesn't like raiding other than a grind with little in the way of quests.

Maybe there should be an expansion that caters for the 60-65 crowd that doesn't like raiding and offers lots of quests that are worth a damn and fun to do.

Maybe many people reach lv50 on their toon and don't like to raid, but all there's left is a slow, tortuous, boring exp grind.

Maybe they are re-rolling another toon because to them, lvls 30-50 was the most fun they've had - and they want to have fun again.

Maybe that explains why the majority of people who play EQ are lvl30-50.

Maybe.

Quote from: Kashmiir Battlekat
BUT WHY!?!? WHY CANT WE THE CASUALS HAVE THIS TOO!!!

Because, quite simply, you didnt earn it. Simply saying you 'pay' to play just like everyone else is not a valid arguement. Its HOW you play that matters.

If the most you can do is 15 hours per week in game then you need to set your goals accordingly.

Honestly, I don't think that's what it's about at all. What I think needs to be addressed is the fun factor and content of the casual, low and midlevel game as well as the game in its entirety. I think it is a grave mistake to focus too heavily on keeping just the uber guilds happy at the expense of this. You can try to keep players or you can try to make sure you get new players as well. If you fail on the later.. you fail in the long run imo.

It's not about wanting to have what the uber players have. I'll never see time. I can't see myself getting uber gear. So what? I don't care. I'n not playing the game for that. But I'd like to be able to start an alt, or see a new player come in and have a more meaningful and more bugfree existance than currently exists. I do NOT think this is about casuals wanting to see all the stuff that hardcore players can see. I could not have put it better than Coprolith.

Stating the number of quests / mobs / zones etc for 1-50s vs 50+ has little bearing on this imo. I think they should focus more on game mechanics and bugfixing that attends to the global playerbase, not just the high ends. Making more zones does not address the problem, imo it makes it worse as you spread your playerbase out. More content, less zones is where it's at I believe, or yes! instanced zones that can be entered into by a wide range of levels and group sizes. just a few peoplem, a group, two groups etc.

I hate the way these things always turn into casual player reward vs uber player reward. Surely that shouldn't be what it's about at all, it should just be about what makes the game a good experience for all.

And as far as how the game is today, please don't go pinning it all on the new players. They've come into a horribly twinked insanely mudflated world populated by uber alts always wearing a temp at level 5 who are shooting back up to rejoin their higher level friends. As for beggars - most problems I've had with beggars were low levels whos knowledge indicated they were -plainly- not new players at all ;) yeah fine non-raiding, newer players out there exist, and yeah they are rare, but you know what? Non-raiding newer players are rare -period-.

One thing I forgot to mention, is that I feel I'm approaching this from a pretty middle of the road perspective. I'm not what I'd call a casual player but I'm not a hardcore player or focussed raider either. I'm in a small guild that does get involved with high end content and has some elemental or soon to be elemental members but which is essentially a family based guild and I do see the other end of the spectrum as well, the social or casual players.

I think it's very easy to see this from a skewed perspective. Those players who raid exclusively in the high end may not realise how much the low end game has changed, or what it's like for new players to enter such a game, populated by twinked buffed alts who just want to get the levels as it is, among other drastic changes. I say we should support the playerbase as a whole, that's all. Keep people coming back, but keep people joining up too!

Just to sidetrack this a little....what about a lvl 65 bstlord with a TON of AA's that has done it all without going elemental?  Like has stayed on first tier only?  Of course his gear would be substandard to time/ele, but there ia a pretty good chance he knows his class like the back of his his/her hand.....they have put the time in, just not going toward tiime/ele but toward levels and AA.  I say this since, more then likely, I will have a 65bst and 65warr that will not be time/ele and I have been screwing around with EQ for a hell of a long time.  What would make me uber then?  Flags?  Total amount of AA?  What would I be called?  Hardcore casual gamer?

Quotewhat about a lvl 65 bstlord with a TON of AA's that has done it all without going elemental?

That category would fit me pretty well. A boatload of AA's, have most of the good LDoN stuff, a lot of VT/Ssra gear. In terms of PoP I have very little interest in that torture device known as EP/Time. In the process of doing GoD trials now on a casual basis with friends (trial 5 atm).

Casual? so so.
Hardcore? hmmm, no idea..
High end? no interest
Powerful character? I do ok. GoD trials havent really challenged me much so far.

So how DO you describe players like me?

Think I'm in that category too.

Been around, seen a lot, done a lot but not ele. No real interest in PoP, nor anything that comes from GoD. 65, stack of aa's, bored as hell, nowhere to go. Lot's of potential though and dedicated. Sounds like a resume.

End game casual?

Corp makes many good points and none that I can argue against.

I bow to your Intellect once again Mighty One!

:)

I think SoE is in a positon of this:

If they make content which would be difficult for the casual players/guilds then it would be simply trivial for the EP/Time/GoD Hardcore players/guilds.

If they then take this content catered to the casual players/guilds and itemize it with 'worthy' loot then you KNOW the hardcore players will flock to this area, wipe it clean, remove all that can be removed for there gimps and then what is left?

Yup, SoE 'retuning' the zone so these hardcore players cant simply walk the zone and rape it for all it is worth... thus once again making it 'too' difficult for the casual players/guilds.

Casuals would be screaming yet again for content that 'they' can play in.

Rock and a Hard Place. I see it.

Whats Sony to do?

They cant lock out 'certain' play styles from content.

Screwed if ya do and screwed if ya dont.

Certainly I can see a problem there when considering one zone, but I don't think it needs to be a problem overall. I don't think many casual side players have much of an issue being locked out of some content as things stand. PoP can create a bit of a rift within a guild socially sure, as flagged members go off and do things and non-flagged members can't join in but I'm sure there are other answers.

With the advent of instanced zones like LDoN I see some good potential. It sounds like they are looking at adding some more points purchaseable high end gear to LDoN and I think that's a positive move too. This lets people who don't get into flagging spend the time commitment to upgrade their gear to a decent level perhaps. I like the idea of some instanced theme based zone outside of LDoN as well, something immersive which could be scaled for the level of those doing the adventure.

I agree with the situation you are imagining there for a zone. However, perhaps there are other ways around this such as instancing the zone.

Mindlet wrote---

QuoteKeys in Kunark are a joke compared to the major pain that pop flagging is. Trakanon idol can be got in about 10 mins with 1 character. HS key takes a bit longer but still is as easy. VP key is a pain but still 90% of it is solo or duoable

.

You either were not around when Kunark came out or forget the gear we were in at the time...Those frogs hurt bad back then, my 49 ranger at the time could barely live thru pulling them and tanking em was nigh on impossible w/o a couple of clerics. There was no soloing these keys back then.

You could certaintly duo the OS key at the very least. I farmed the named cycles there hunting a meditative blanket for a long time with a druid and a monk. A good necro could have soloed the Hunter and Forager pretty easily.

HS key was soloable as a monk.

VP key was 90% soloable as a monk.

I would just like to add that there is likely no content that a casual player will never see, as long as he waits long enough.  Eventually, in another 5 or 10 years, if the game is still running and someone is still playing, there will be casual player who solos his way to PoTime.  Of course, he will be level 200 and be using a 347damage/3delay weapon with +400,000hps on it  ;)

QuoteWhats Sony to do?

Well that is the million dollar question. Wish i had an answer. We can only hope that the combined efforts of all players and the staff at SOE can find the solution that satisfies the largest part of the player base. EQs problems have become too complex to be solved by a bunch of Devs on Friday afternoon, i think we can all agree on that.

There's nothing wrong with creating separate content for hardcore and casuals in itself. Good business practice even, since you cater to a bigger market. Keyword here is separate tho. How that's best implemented is difficult to answer.
And not too separate either. Back in the days of Velious there was even some interaction between the hardcore guilds and the casuals. The most monumental and exciting event in EQ history to me is still the awakening of the Sleeper. When word got out that my server's top guild was going to awake the sleeper, hordes of casuals flocked to EW just to be part of the experience. "I was there when the Sleeper was awakened and all i got was this lousy T-Shirt". I was there too even though i knew i'd never set foot inside Sleeper Tomb itself. Close second was the first eight ring war. Hardcores started the event, and they invited 100+ more players provided they had a solid connection. At the end of the event player corpses were piled 3 high from Thurg entrance up to the wurm caves. Some people lost 2 levels but they didnt mind.
In comparison, hearing of the first Quarm kill excited me about as much as a BBC gardening program. What the hardcores are doing today has become so far removed from my own gaming experience, so distant that they might as well literally be playing a different game.

Also i think SOE has to reminded that casuals and hardcore players do play two different games (figuratively speaking this time), and at very different paces. They don't have to design every new zone to be challenging and accessible for everyone. Casuals lag behind the hardcores in terms of their toons power, and as time progresses that only gets worse. If SOE wants to cater to everyone from the gimpiest casual to the uberest hardcore they need to put much more variation in the new zones, and design new raid encounters for every type of guild. If they don't, they are forcing a big part of their player base to remain in the old zones, which is what we see happening now with GoD. Its not for nothing that a lot of people will list Velious or Kunark as their fav expansion. They had content for everyone. But those were simpler times and as i've already said, EQ has become much complex. I don't know if its even possible to make such an expansion again today, and i certainly wouldnt know how, but if they manage that then i'll take a deep bow to the Devs.


Hrmmm, talked too much again did I? oh well

/hugs

I've been playing EQ for about 3 years now and i enjoy it quite a bit. I long accepted that I won't see places like Time and VT. I don't mean that I have given up, what I mean is that I realize the dedication and time sink it is to see these places. As much as I would like to be in a high end raiding guild and see these places, I honestly dont see how different it is then being in a casual guild riading in a place like TOV.

Yes mob level and difficulty are higher meaning you need a more focused group/riad...but when you think about it how is a raid of 72 time geared toons going after quarm much different then 36 well geared(pre-elemental) toons doing HoT?

You have about the same challenge level given the gear level and mob level and still need the same tactics to win with a minimum of deaths.

The only clear difference is the drops, but is a drop the only point of a raid? If the gear you can get is the only concern, then you are not playing the game you are just "getting it done".

I am a long time gamer and when I started playing EQ I was amazed by the idea of so many people playing together at the same time. What shocked me though was the singled minded focus on the gear. Yes, high end gear make the game easier and makes it possible to see new zones, but what is better having fun or having gear. I know some people will say that getting that high end gear is fun, and I dont deny that getting cool drops is fun, but is that the only reason you log on?

MMORPG's are the only games I have ever seen that are focused more on gear then on gameplay and the simple pleasure of gaming. Would you play console games just so you could say you beat it, or would you play because it is fun?

The more gear focused people become the more fun is sucked out of this game.

If your a casual player and wish you could have that really cool Time/GoD gear, that's fine keep wishing but there is no need to get pissed at SoE that your 10-15 hours a weeks is not getting you into Time.

I'm not saying give up and be happy with only playing in Tier 1 planes, what I'm saying is, instead of getting upset that you can't do this or you can't do that, find something you can do and enjoy it. Just because PoP leads to the best gear does not make it the funnest place to go. Take a few days and explore Norrath its a huge place with many many cool things and zones to see. Hell I spent 3 hours just exploring and talking with NPC's in Skyshrine once I hit Ally.

I guess my point is this:
Games are to have fun therefore, if only highend gear makes you happy but you can't play 40-50 hours a week then find another way to be happy because without that dedication it just won't happen.  Getting mad and flaming is not going to solve it. Every single game I have ever played you get more and better rewards based on how long you play. So why shold EQ be any different. Yes we pay every month for this game, but we pay to play not pay for gear.

Enjoy the game find what you like and do it, if you can't do what makes you happy then move on because the game won't be changed to make everyone happy.

QuoteEvery single game I have ever played you get more and better rewards based on how long you play* . So why shold EQ be any different.

* emphasis mine

Except EQ has its own version of a glass ceiling.

A raider can put in 40 hours of gaming in a week. A time challenged but serious player might take 3 weeks to put in the same 40 hours.

At the end of those 40 hours the raider and the time challenged player will not realize the same rewards for the same amount of time played.

So, in EQ at least, it isn't just how long you play but also how long your individual play sessions last. The players who can afford 4-8 hour sessions for raids get a different set of rewards than the players who can only afford 1-3 hours of playtime in any one sitting.

I don't want things made any easier for me because I can't raid or play more than 3 hours at a time. What I, and I think many other players, have is an expectation that my 40 hours of playtime will result in comparable rewards to what the raiders get.

LDoN was a step in the right direction but the current themes need some serious tuning to make it worthwhile for time challenged and casual players who use them as their primary upgrade path.

Ragash,

You also nailed it. BAM!

Good insight dude.

Been playing the game for 4+ almost 5 yrs now, highest level toon is my 57 warrior, so the term casual player sticks to me like glue.  Do I expect that I should be running around in high end stuff because I have played for so long, yet there are 65bst with tons of AA in time after 6months of playing?  Not at all.  I'm not trying to be in Time or whatnot.  I go to Hooter's, the bars, whatever versus staying in all night playing EQ.  For the players working so hard to get so far to get the best gear, good for you.  Hardwork plays off, and you reap what you sow (hehe).  For the casual player like myself, more then more then enough to keep me occupied all the way to level 65 with both my warrior and bstlord in the old world stuff as well what appears to be coming up.  If I want high end gear, there is always LDoN and the recc lvl 65 gear available there.  Looks like the time needed to get the 1450pts for each peice of recc lvl 65 gear, along with all the good augs to make them badass pieces of gear are equal to the time spent by the ubah players going through Time and whatnot to get their gear.  I have no problem doing that to make my $12.95 a month worth playing EQ.

QuoteI don't want things made any easier for me because I can't raid or play more than 3 hours at a time. What I, and I think many other players, have is an expectation that my 40 hours of playtime will result in comparable rewards to what the raiders get.

Not even that in fact. When you're in a hardcore raiding guild you are effectively dedicating almost all of those 40 hours towards getting better gear (its not the goal in itself of course, but effectively thats what it comes down to, killing mobs that drop 'phat lewts'). My 40 hours on the other hand are dedicated to exploring new zones, getting xp, and generally just finding new challenges that don't necessarily involve loot dropping mobs. Then there's the overhead from starting up and finishing each session. With shorter sessions that overhead becomes a relatively larger part of playtime. Frankly my expectation is to get the same % power increase as a hardcore raider in twice the amount of playtime.

So ermm lessee, PoTime was conquered something like a year after PoPs release? Little less i think but with pharming the zone until the entire guild was equipped with Time-gear a year is about right? So if the average hardcore raider plays 4 times as much as i do, I expect to be dressed in full PoTime level gear in about 7 more years. Is that unreasonable of me to ask?  :D
By the time my gear beats the current GoD-level gear i'll be retired and then i can become a hardcore raider myself, yippeee!

/hugs

cop your wrong at the max you should spend 2x the time to get equal gear meaning if it took 1year for someone to get through the whole pop shat and farm the crap out of time in 2 years you should be able to get that again this is with dedication through time played not single stints this could preferably work with ldon and as each new xpan comes out they have a brand new set of ldon armor augs weaps that will cost more probly 1.5-2x the last set and will be comrable to new gear so if you do decide to head over for some 1 group content you wont be totally gimp or if you decide to go for a open raid you wont be screwed

/em catches his breath after trying to read that run-on sentence in one go

Not sure i quite understand what im wrong about according to you, Gnomersy. Are you saying a casual player should be able to get equal gear in just 2x the time instead of 2x the playing playing? Cuz that can't be right. I also dont see how new LDoN merchant gear added with new expansions changes things. Sony is currently considering adding time-level gear to LDoN. Gonna take a guess and say that these items will cost around 2500 pts, and thats just the base armor. The time-level effects will have to be added with augments. So lets call it an even 5000 adventure points to upgrade a single slot. That's 100 wins at L65 normal setting. Even if i dedicate myself to doing nothing but LDoNs that would take me about 6 months, or 10 years for a full set. So by the time the next expansion comes out which puts even better gear on LDoN merchants i have 1 or 2 pieces of the best equipment from before that. At that rate i wont exactly be a threat to a hardcore player's uberness, but at least i get a taste of what's it like.

/hugs

Yeah, there's a common misconception that LDoN is gearing up the casual player. It is, to some degree, but it's mostly tweaks to gear as opposed to total revamps. We just don't earn enough points.

I am ranked #143 on Fennin Ro. My wife's mule with four wins is ranked 8000, so call it ten thousand people doing at least one ldon on Fennin. This would put me in the top 2% easily, yet I have "only" 203 wins.

Someone who has fully progressed through LDoN would have full LDoN armor, LDoN weapons (SHO for us), each item fully augmented. All this would require in the area of 1000 wins. Two expansions later, 98% of the FR playerbase has advanced less than a fifth of the way through LDoN.

LDoN looks good on paper, becase you can quantify the effort required. In practice, if it's intended audience was the casual player, it's much much much too slow.

I agree with Coprolith and Bryc..

SOE has stated that the best selling expansion is LoY.

I think that SOE has, belatedly, seen that catering to the high-end raiders has hit their pocketbook.
PoP was popular. This had content, even if only a smidgen, for all players.
The downturn in sales, I believe, started with LDoN.

Every expansion since has had less and less content for the casual player. Finally Gates came out. The word got out before hand that the content is for 60+ players with great gear. Sales are not good. The pre-orders for Omens is announced. Disaster strikes! Sales? What sales?

SOE keeps EQ going for a return on investment. When the returns are way way below projections, and SOE finally realises that the uber raiders are not where the money base is, a plan to remedy this is begun.

Some comments from some posts:
High-end raiders are not necesssarily good or great players. There are some excellent players out there, that are in a guild that does not have a Tier 1 rating.

The comment, ad nauseum, that there is wonderful and plentiful content with good exp for the casual players 45 to 60 is just so annoying. Shows how out of touch some high-end people are with the overall state of EQ.

EQ has become very gear reliant. One must gain plat to buy gear from the bazaar, because the gear that drops to a single group is not appropriate to the level of the group.

Of all the forums I visit, I still feel that this forum has the most mature, informative information available.

QuoteLDoN looks good on paper, becase you can quantify the effort required. In practice, if it's intended audience was the casual player, it's much much much too slow.

Yep, that's exactly it. Once you've hit 65, you can only progress further with AA grinding or gearing up and this is just too d**n slow. There's only so much time you can spent in a zone before it gets repetitive. Everyone likes to see new content. This can be gained from new expansions, or by gearing/AAing up which opens new zones that previously were too hard. But the latter process is really slow for a casual player, like watching a glacier move. So when SOE makes an expansion aimed entirely at high-end, hardcore players, they run the risk that the old content becomes too repetitive for the casual players. Its rather ironic tho that GoD drove away exactly those people it was aimed at. But the the worst mistake SOE could make right now is try to bring them back with another expansion aimed mostly at the high-end. I think what EQ needs is another Kunark/Velious/Luclin; a huge expansion with content for everyone.

I think that if and when they are going to add new and improved gear to LDoN merchants, it'd be a good idea the scale the old gear down in cost and make the new gear cost 1492 points, rather then simply adding the new gear at higher cost. Because quite frankly, the idea of having to do even more missions to get a single upgrade appals me.

/hugs

Yes, they should have created another Kunark-Type expansion which should have catered to everyone from level 1 - 65.

Basically have GoD/OoW being the 60-65 content of this new expansion while also have zones/content for levels 1-65.

Though, really, when thinking about this I sort of shudder. Dont we simply have 'enough' zones for level 1-50? I mean really. There are a TON of zones for these folks to play in.

If anything they should go back and rework quests and the rewards to more meet the current inflated quality of items that can be easily obtained in the Bazaar.

They also should go back and rework experience modifiers for all zones from 1-60 and simply give them all 'the same' zone xp modifiers. This will basically make it so no single zone or few zones are where all the xp is to be had thus causing folks to explore and utilize zones they dont now due to the fact that they can get better xp in these 'other zones'.

People will take the easiest way out.... if you make everything the same 'XP Wise" then it will give people more choice. They know if they fight in Zone "A" they will get "XXX" XP and if they fight in zone "B" they know they will get the same.

Now it would be a matter of mob density/pulling.

It 'seems' simple to answer, but I suppose there is a hell of a lot more then that.

Ok, Im done rambling --hehe

QuoteThough, really, when thinking about this I sort of shudder. Dont we simply have 'enough' zones for level 1-50? I mean really. There are a TON of zones for these folks to play in.

What about semi-instanced zones keyed to character level ranges? That way everyone can get to experience the same new content and hunt there for exp and rewards appropriate to their level.

This gives everyone the excitement of the new content and if done right can counteract the feeling that high level characters are isolated from lower level characters (something that contributes to the whole 'level as fast as you can' mindset in my opinion).

Having Instanced Zones being 'overly used' would be a bad thing in my book. You would no longer have 'any' social interactions with others other then your immidiate friends or hunting partners.

Now dont get me wrong here I think proper implementation of Instanced Content would be a good thing, but going overboard on it would be bad. The game would turn in to al Local LAN Party type atmosphere or perhaps even the feel of a single player game. This would be bad I think.

Having a good 'balance' of this would be nice though.

I'm not suggesting total instancing. The kind of instancing used in LDoN serves to isolate characters from the server population at large.

However a system that uses partial instancing, sorting players by level ranges, allows for zones that aren't completely devoid of players while still making it possible for players of all levels to experience the same new content.

That way, no matter what level you are, you get content tuned for you and your group and know that anyone else in the zone is at least capable of grouping with you. Finding out if they're competent or not is another proposition entirely though ;) .

I imagine, at least on the server side of things, its no more or less intensive to create 7 zones accessible by every player in the game than it is to create 21 zones that are hard-coded for certain level ranges. The code necessary to determine content level is already available in game because its used for LDoN already.

Quote from: KashmiirThough, really, when thinking about this I sort of shudder. Dont we simply have 'enough' zones for level 1-50? I mean really. There are a TON of zones for these folks to play in.

Yes there are, and they're great for new players who have yet to discover them (even tho what you see is that most new players skip a lot of that content because the loot drops are hopelessly outdated, or they concentrate in high ZEM zones like PC, but that's their loss). But I've seen em all. I know every nook and corner of Befallen, Najena, SolA, Dalnir, you name it. There's nothing more in those zones for me. Its one of the reasons so many toons get powerleveled these days, to skip the old content and move straight to the new. I can start a new toon with a class i haven't played and get some satisfaction from learning that class, but I'd still know exactly what to expect in the zones themselves. There's no exploration anymore.

Hardcore raiding guilds don't take their new apps back to ToV, Sleeper, Ssra, VP either. New apps get geared up in one or two PoTime raids, and then they move on to GoD. When GoD is 'beaten', they'll want new content. You could say that I have 'beaten' all those old zones. If i want to do something new, i have to either gear/AA up to unlock existing content (too slow) or have new content added to the game.

Quote from: RagashHowever a system that uses partial instancing, sorting players by level ranges, allows for zones that aren't completely devoid of players while still making it possible for players of all levels to experience the same new content.

I think i like that idea. Instanced exp zones, sorted by level range. Only prob i can foresee is that when interest in one such particular zone trails off, there won't be enough players in them to distinguish them from current LDoN dungeons. But it'd be a good idea to try out one or two new zones this way. If it catches on, it'd be a very cost effective way for SOE to provide content for everyone without having to create a huge number of zones.

/hugs

You know, they could get a lot more life out of their existing zones if they just used the ZEM more effectively.

People these days (even casual players) are used to getting xp at the rate you get from tier 1-3 planes in a good group. Sooo.... just go back through your old zones and apply higher ZEM's across the board (not just these LoY hot spots).

I personally find soloing down near the Fungi/Juggs/Reets in OS way way more challenging than sitting in a group in BoT for hours.. so... why shouldn't I get at least the same kind of xp per kill? Where is my risk vs reward? Sure i may get lucky and find a fungi or a reet crown or net a few gems but thats no different than netting a piece of ornate or other gear from a named in BoT and looting the various diamonds FFA.

They need to take a look at some of their older world zones and truly consider pumping up the xp rate. Exp is what draws people to zones, way more than a slight chance at equipment.

I would apply a ZEM to the following zones at the very least (and these are just the higher end zones you have to also consider the L50-60 player):-

- Cazic Thule (TOUGH to solo in, ok when you duo, groups can manage just fine, horrible risk vs reward unless you perma camp the boots and bazaar them, at least double the exp rate here)

- Old Sebilis (ok gem and spell drops -- they nerfed bugs which sucked, occasional semi-decent item drops, xp rate is f**** horrible)

- Howling Stones (that key quest is a bitch, the item drops suck and the exp rate is ok but nothing to write home about)

- Veksar (currently a necro faaaaaarming zone, decent drops but the exp rate STILL isnt good enough on anything but nobles/highborns)

- Droga (sorry but these mobs have TOO MUCH hp, you simply cant kill them fast enough to get a good xp rate unless you have a group and its mainly dps classes, either up to exp rate a tad or lower the overall mob HP)

- Griegs End (mindless xp in the range of 1-2% per kill, up the exp rate and i'd be happy here, luclin mobs so melee dont kill them as fast, wouldnt require a huge increase)

- Sirens Grotto (these mobs hurt a lot for their level range, even at 65 soloing here is risky, the risk vs reward is not very good unless you get lucky with gem drops or named spawns)

So look at your bloody ZEM's, constantly tweak them, monitor zone populations and adjust your game accordingly. Hell, hire someone to do this. Cheaper, more effective and less risky than bringing out new bugged content to fix old problems.

Quote from: a_moss_snake_001You know, they could get a lot more life out of their existing zones if they just used the ZEM more effectively.

People these days (even casual players) are used to getting xp at the rate you get from tier 1-3 planes in a good group. Sooo.... just go back through your old zones and apply higher ZEM's across the board (not just these LoY hot spots).

I personally find soloing down near the Fungi/Juggs/Reets in OS way way more challenging than sitting in a group in BoT for hours.. so... why shouldn't I get at least the same kind of xp per kill? Where is my risk vs reward? Sure i may get lucky and find a fungi or a reet crown or net a few gems but thats no different than netting a piece of ornate or other gear from a named in BoT and looting the various diamonds FFA.

They need to take a look at some of their older world zones and truly consider pumping up the xp rate. Exp is what draws people to zones, way more than a slight chance at equipment.

I would apply a ZEM to the following zones at the very least (and these are just the higher end zones you have to also consider the L50-60 player):-

- Cazic Thule (TOUGH to solo in, ok when you duo, groups can manage just fine, horrible risk vs reward unless you perma camp the boots and bazaar them, at least double the exp rate here)

- Old Sebilis (ok gem and spell drops -- they nerfed bugs which sucked, occasional semi-decent item drops, xp rate is f**** horrible)

- Howling Stones (that key quest is a bitch, the item drops suck and the exp rate is ok but nothing to write home about)

- Veksar (currently a necro faaaaaarming zone, decent drops but the exp rate STILL isnt good enough on anything but nobles/highborns - which you need a good group to rake in the exp)

- Droga (sorry but these mobs have TOO MUCH hp, you simply cant kill them fast enough to get a good xp rate unless you have a group and its mainly dps classes, either up to exp rate a tad or lower the overall mob HP)

- Griegs End (mindless xp in the range of 1-2% per kill, up the exp rate and i'd be happy here, luclin mobs so melee dont kill them as fast, wouldnt require a huge increase)

- Sirens Grotto (these mobs hurt a lot for their level range, even at 65 soloing here is risky, the risk vs reward is not very good unless you get lucky with gem drops or named spawns)

So look at your bloody ZEM's, constantly tweak them, monitor zone populations and adjust your game accordingly. Hell, hire someone to do this. Cheaper, more effective and less risky than bringing out new bugged content to fix old problems.

QuoteYou know, they could get a lot more life out of their existing zones if they just used the ZEM more effectively.

Not really. Changing the ZEM of a zone doesnt change the zone itself. All it does is making xp go a bit faster, but it'd still be the same mindboggingly boring AA grind as always. I dont hunt in a zone for its ZEM (unless im PLing a new char thru lvls 1-42), i go there because its fun/unexplored. The increase in the rate at which i get power upgrades thru AAs would mean i'd be able to take on new challenges a bit faster, but they'd have to really up the ZEMs big time for that to be appreciable.

/hugs

Quote from: Kashmiir BattlekatBasically have GoD/OoW being the 60-65 content of this new expansion while also have zones/content for levels 1-65.

Though, really, when thinking about this I sort of shudder. Dont we simply have 'enough' zones for level 1-50? I mean really. There are a TON of zones for these folks to play in.

Yep. Because while level 65 should be a ticket to a spoon-feeding of new drops, quests, models, zones, and challenges, I SO want to sit in OT with my alt killing Sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak...

Funny how people can bitch about the "race to level 65" on one hand, and then declare that lower levels shouldn't have any new content...  :roll:

QuoteI SO want to sit in OT with my alt killing Sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak... after sarnak...

So go somewhere else ... you know there are more zones then the treadmill exp route? OMG!

I think the point of his post was that to get to the hallowed level of 65, one must kill repeatedly.  And since there are more numbers between 1-65 than there are 65-70, personally, I think that the game is becoming too top heavy.

There should be just as much, if not MORE choices available to the people who are of lower level, how else are they going to get to those higher levels if they're always doing the same friggin thing over and over?

Yah, we all did it, I know.  I didn't like it though, and I doubt that most of you did.  Camping the same 4 or 5 pulls, over and over again till your mind goes numb.  Don't you think that Everquest should be about adventure and exploration?  Isn't that the whole premise?  Players created this system now.  Someone along the way of the development of how people in this game behave decided that they and they alone were going to kill these same 3 mobs over and over again, and thus camping was born.

There should, and has to be a better way than that, if the new zones are just more of the same crap, the same pulling/camping, what's the point of the game anymore?

Just wanted to pop my head in here and make a comment.  I have been playing EQ since Sept of 99.  All that time has been spent in friendly guilds.  First, Hand of Mana on the Nameless, now The Insane on AB.  In those near 5 years in EQ, I have come across many more people who choose to remain in those friendly guilds than I have people that are raiding PoT.  

Earlier in this thread, someone stated that those that aren't raiding probably would not have the longevity in the game that raiding players do.  I have to strongly disagree with this statement.    There are those of us that started EQ, joined a guild, and made lasting friendships. Those friendships are what  keeps EQ going strong-through the bugs and the crappy expansions-not some desire to be able to say "My worthless pixel is better than your worthless pixel" or "I killed that group of pixels and you haven't!"

It seems that some people have this mistaken impression that the casual players of EQ aren't enjoying EQ just because we are not killing the same content or exploring the same worlds that the Ubers are.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  When I solo something that is challenging to me or my guild takes down a mob that is challenging to us, we get the same feeling of accomplishment that the guilds in PoT get, simply because we are not in competition with them.  We play the game our way, we do what is fun to us, and we don't worry that Soandso killed this a year ago in a tenth the time.  We're just happy to be there, together.  And I think THAT is the core of your EQ player base.

Urim, that quote in your sig couldnt be more appropriate to your last post. Have you been following this thread at all?

QuoteHave you been following this thread at all?

On and off, i find the whole idea rather stupid. Low to mid level players bitching and whining about not having enough places to experience but at the same time commenting about how they only go to a few zones.  My comment was about the poster previous to me sarcastically saying he wanted to sit in OT killing sarnak after sarnak. If he truly didn't want to sit in OT doing that with his alt then he would explore other zones and find other places to kill mob after mob after mob. There are TONS of zones for people of those levels to go for experience and with the mudflation of items nowadays it makes soloing or grouping in these zones (plus zones that back in the day were for higher level players) all the more easier.

While i agree that some new zones should come out for those players, i dont agree with the mentality that EVERY expansion should have something for those players. LoY for example was primarily for them, there was nothing in that expansion for higher level players. The ONLY reason many high level players even bothered to buy that expansion was for the maps and extra bank space, i know if not for those then i myself would not have purchased it. Expansions such as GoD and PoP that were designed for the high level raider also benefit the lower level players because eventually they will come to a point in their progression where they themselves will experience and make full use of that content, but when content is added ONLY for the lower level characters then the same thing cannot be said about high levels players eventually making use of that content. Simple fact is that by adding more higher level content to the game it will benefit more players in the long run.

And yes, i believe the quote in my sig does fit this whole topic rather well.

Urim,

You have a small problem with your reasoning. You assume that I've "never seen the big wide world". There's three zones I've never been to, pre-pop. Veeshan's Peak, Sleeper's Tomb, and Vex Thal. You can add in Kithicor, Mons Letalis, and Kael as zones I haven't hunted in for experience.

If I'm playing an alt, what makes you think I want to see the same crap I saw the first few times around?

Level 65 has two full expansions geared around it. Do you hunt in Qinimi or BoT? Why not, that's content for you!

Before people whine about the lowbies packing into just a few zones out of "all that content", they should take a look at their own habits.

QuoteUrim,

You have a small problem with your reasoning

Naw, he's got a big problem by not taking the effort to read the whole thread. He's just re-hashing old arguments that have already been countered. There's always someone in long threads like these, hence my quip about the quote in his sig. Its best just to ignore these arguments and not to whine about the whining over whining, that just takes the momentum out of the thread.

/hugs

Quote
Expansions such as GoD and PoP that were designed for the high level raider also benefit the lower level players because eventually they will come to a point in their progression where they themselves will experience and make full use of that content, but when content is added ONLY for the lower level characters then the same thing cannot be said about high levels players eventually making use of that content

This isn't really true, because the term "high-level content" is a moving target in EQ.

The level caps have been 50, 60, 65 and now 70. By your reasoning, adding a bunch of level 50 content in original EQ made sense because all characters would eventually experience that lvl 50 content. Adding a bunch of lvl 60 content through Kunark-Velious-SoL made sense because all characters would eventually experience that lvl 60 content, etc.

In reality, most of the level 60 content is now irrelevant. People hit PoP as soon as they are 51. Fungus Grove is essentially empty, Velks is empty, Old Sebilis is mostly empty. These were all high level zones, now they are less populated than LoY.

The same is true of adding current level 65 content. It will be as empty as West Karana in 2 expansions. Therefore, over the long term, it is equivalent to adding zones for level 20 players.

I think you're missing his point. He's not saying they are still "high-level" zones, but that they are now availbale to use when you reach a certain level. Sure a lot of people do go to PoP as early as the high-40's but if that is the case why bother making new content for that level range if they're never gonna go there anyway - i.e. LoY.

I go to LoY all the time and it's dead? Why? Because the mobs don't give the same amount of xp as they do in PoP and people have to make a 10 min run to get there. The zones themselves are, imo, more interesting but that doesn't seem to make much difference. People want instant xp/gratification now.

Some people whine that there's not enough content for them but then still take the path of least resistance or (perceived) most-reward anyway. For someone who actually wants to hunt in a different xp spot every night there's plenty of places to go all the way until the high 50's.

*sigh*

You know what? Why bother making new expansions at all? I mean, not only is there plenty of content for the casual gamer, there are dozens of raid zones as well. "Stop whining about there not being enough raid content for you." When your guild finishes GoD, they can just go back to doing Vox/naggy, Kunark dragons, NToV, Sleeper's, Ssra, VT, EPs and poT. Or stay in GoD forever, there's half a dozen more raid zones for you there.


Can we go back to the part of the discussion that was actually constructive now?

Sorry to say this, but I've skipped ahead from page 2 somewhere. So if this was posted or addressed forgive me please  :oops: .

Quick background on where I left off.....someone mentioned that SoE simply can't lock off content to high lvl players. Why not? There's already tons of locked off content for mid/low-level players and for casual high enders. That being said, why don't they simply make a few zones in the next expansion with specific level ranges, such as 50-55 and have an NPC that pulls a Vox/Naggy sitting at entrance and bans those players above 55 and below 50 from entering?

Another idea that kind of flows with the last one, but can be implemented easily since they have this kind of stuff already in some GoD zone.......make the entrance area (not zone-wide) for a zone have an unresistable AoE that cancels all buffs off a player and have it hit every tick, so there are no buffed characters entering the zone.... would be a GREAT way to limit some things like KEI/Virtue buffed characters from unbalancing groups. (could make it be like that for new instanced zones also)

That's just a couple ideas I had floating in my head.

In a way I have to agree with Urim and Feralize. There is a lot of content for lvls 1-50 but most people, present company excluded, have not explored it fully. If you have seen 90% of the zones, you are the exception, not the norm. When I was in a family guild I used to run tour of norrath raids. The idea was to expose them to zones they normaly would not go to. Eventualy some of them started to explore on their own but left to their own device they stay where things are either easy or where they can get "optimal exp". I say in quotes "optimal" because I beleive they are under the misconception that those populare zones are really optimal. The reason being they spend hours LFG while I would solo in some random zone all by myself steadily gaining xp.

If we go back and look at the demographics but this time ask the question what percentage of Norrath have you explored you will still get a 80/20 distribution. 80% have explored 20% of the content and 20% have explore 80% of the content. You can keep throwing content in and this percentage will remain relatively constant. Its human nature.

As for uber guilds going back and redoing older content some do and some don't. I beleive the majority don't because they view raiding as a way to get better equipment. So there is no insentive to go back and do older content. However, if you uber guild is more interested in exploring the world and taking down content because its there and is or was a challenge then you would go back to see that content. Its the same 80/20 rule.

My point is that its human nature for people to react the way they do. Just like its their nature to be out of touch with other classes skills and spreading missinformation accidentaly. As a mature comunity like ours its our job to realize this and work against it one way or another. My hope is that the people at SoE realize the complexity of the social aspects of the game they are trying to change.

The uber guilds consist primarily of people doing at least one of three things: finding a group of people who have similar schedules and who can adventure and advance on a more consistant basis than the masses, trying to become more powerful through equipment upgrades, trying to win the game.

In a game that needs to have long term vision, trying to develop for a crowd such as that is a losing proposition.  They will always have more than enough time and willpower to defeat anything you throw against them in short order.  Eventually they will either "win" or run out of equipment upgrades.  If you continually create more content for their upgrades, in time for them to hit them and move on, you will quickly be creating content that 99% of the rest of Norrath will never see.  It will only get worse over time as the ubers race ahead faster than anyone else and the gap separates more and more.

Creating broader content could help to alleviate this.  Certainly each expansion will raise the bar slightly, allowing the ubers to better themselves, but there should be lots of lateral content, that is no harder than the old stuff (only new).  This will allow the ubers the flesh out themselves with new things and exploration, while creating new content for the masses.  Every six months or so, the masses can get excited about exploring some new content; even if they haven't explored the old, this is still good for the bottom line.

Ultimately, you may have more of the uber crowd getting bored and leaving (mostly the ones that are only satisfied with better and not newer), but IMHO that is a better situation than having the majority feel that the expansions hold nothing for them to see or enjoy.  The key is to have innovative ideas that will give the higher end people new facets of the game to play with, so they don't realize (or dwell on the fact) that they are actually not getting much stronger.

QuoteYou have a small problem with your reasoning. You assume that I've "never seen the big wide world".

People that fall into that description are in the very, very, very tiny minority. I've seen every zone except Veeshan's Peak but i still occasionally go back to some zones and try out things like soloing a mob i didn't think i could, seeing how many mobs i can take on at a time, running through old quests without looking at guides just to see what the quest is all about and waste some time.

QuoteLevel 65 has two full expansions geared around it. Do you hunt in Qinimi or BoT? Why not, that's content for you!

Casual players and low level players have 2 expansion geared around them, LoY and LDoN. And don't tell me that LDoN isn't actually for the casual player like some have earlier in this thread. Casual players have been screaming for a while for a way to log on for an hour or two and feel like getting something done. BINGO! there you go. And yes i do hunt in Qinimi and BoT sometimes.

QuoteNaw, he's got a big problem by not taking the effort to read the whole thread.

Read the whole thread, hell was 3rd post. Fact is, the thread changed somewhere around halfway down page 1 to the current topic of hardcore vs. casual when it comes to zones/raiding/content.

QuoteHe's just re-hashing old arguments that have already been countered.

Countered when? When you were talking about how "There's nothing wrong with creating separate content for hardcore and casuals in itself." We all know how well seperating content for hardcore and casuals went over when flags were required to progress to the hardcore areas. Pretty sure there is still bitching and moaning about those flags. Or were you talking about when people posted about instancing zones? Instancing has ruined the game in my opinion, it takes out the fantasy of it. There is no more running to get to mobs before another person/guild because you know that you can have your very own mob, kinda like how things work in the fantasy books or fantasy movies, right?!

QuoteYou know what? Why bother making new expansions at all? I mean, not only is there plenty of content for the casual gamer, there are dozens of raid zones as well. "Stop whining about there not being enough raid content for you." When your guild finishes GoD, they can just go back to doing Vox/naggy, Kunark dragons, NToV, Sleeper's, Ssra, VT, EPs and poT. Or stay in GoD forever, there's half a dozen more raid zones for you there.

Guess what, thats exactly what happened after PoP was beat. Going back and killing the same shit over and over again while in the meantime two expansions come out that offer nothing new. Now two expansions are coming out that are offering new things for the high levels and not much for the others. And now there is a ton of whining about not adding enough new content for the casuals with these expansions. So apparently is was good when 2 expansions were released offering little to nothing for the hardcores, but sits horrible when 2 expansions are released offering little to nothing for the casuals.

There doesn't seem to be an incentive for people to go to exciting zones like Guk when there are safe zones like TM and DSP. Money isn't hard to come by these days either. Why bother dragging some poor unfortunates to camp the smelly ol FBSS in a scarey dungeon when you can farm swirling shadows and silks for a few days and buy SCHW?

Instead of getting a new expansion that contained zones for mid level players why not rework some of the current zones? Nurga was a good start but it's way too soloable.

How about a Seb 2.0 or Kaesora 2.0? New loot tables without doing a Droga and buffing up the mobs so as to tempt people into zones that owned back in the day.

No drop, level restricted gear that's sweet - crazy effects like a 30 min skelly illusion buff, 10 charges of no rent FD potions, stat food dropping from mobs, triggered mini ring events that spawns "Puppet of Bristlebane" low level ok-ish-but-not-what-your-there-for-but-it's-always-cool-looting-stuff-with-stats loot that drops randomly from any mob. It's really just about tempting people with cool shit and making them take risks again - ya know, like we had to.

People are lazy/scared/can't be arsed to do exciting stuff when the alternative is too easy to get the same or better results. Make the exciting scarey zones tempting again and I guarantee you this - the casual player won't care about 65 when the journey there is made once again an exciting, dangerous but ultimately rewarding experience.

Why do you think people are racing to 65? Because someone told them there would be a big bunny to give them a hug and an army of adoring gnomes? Nope. It's because the mid levels are going stagnant because we are being spoon fed zones that are staid, badly designed and boring, boring, boring. New players think 65's when all the action happens and who could blame them if people have no reason to get out of Dawnshroud.

Here is the problem in my opinion.. and is basically the same that has been mentioned im sure.

Just because some individual wants to think he is a uber person/joins uber guild.. and raids 3 or so hours a night.. Does not give him the right to items that a CASUAL player shouldn't be able to get in the same amount of time.

Guild should not equal items..

Time should equal items..

Maybe jo blow doesn't like the uber guild atmospere.. should he be punished?.. No

So if you have fun in the raiding type thing.. have at it.. get yer items..
If you dont, and enjoy more of a family type guild.. have at it.. get yer items..

this is where LDoN should come into play.

Point pools should be totally restructered.

Different areas are fine but.. all vendors should have all items..

If you have 2000, it should unlock everything everywhere under 2000 points..

this would get rid of the.. hey i dont wanna do GuK cause all my stuff is in butcherblock crap.

They should put time level gear on LDoN merchants.. AT 1000 points or so.  the stuff they have at the top of LDoN right now.. costs way to much time for what it is.

at 51 points/item that would take 20 missions for ONE piece.


I feel sorry for all you people that have this EGO thing that is hey.. im better then you, I joined an uberguild. whoohoo

It takes NOTHING to get into Time.. 4 zones.. Can be done in a few days. a couple if the guys are up.  so dont go saying hey.. bla bla.. it takes so much time.  all it takes is enough idiots to get together and think they have formed or are the uberguild..  And anyone who DID actually Put in the beginning time and went through the zone progression.. boohoo.. you get the priveledge of beating the zones/quest to get there, and seeing them.  You did get stat points on your charm aswell did you not?

It should not be about Keeping everyone else lower cause you want to make yourself feel better.. The Ego thing again.

Just because ubers have 50-60 does not make them better, nor should it.

There are numerous Drops/Ele, Time raid. for a minor amount of time involved.

The same should be said for what the Average family guild gets.

I think this is an excellent thread but on occasion it does taste of "us and them."

While I understand some people feel strongly about some of the issues discussed, let's remember to keep it civil. I don't wanna see this get locked - I'm really enjoying everyone putting their 2cp in   8)

Quote from: LorathirInstead of getting a new expansion that contained zones for mid level players why not rework some of the current zones? Nurga was a good start but it's way too soloable.

Whats wrong with soloable zones? Its hard enougth trying to get people to explore new or revemped zones, forcing them to have to group is not going to make them want to go.

Quote from: Lorathir
How about a Seb 2.0 or Kaesora 2.0? New loot tables without doing a Droga and buffing up the mobs so as to tempt people into zones that owned back in the day.

Seb is still quite popular on my server. The only real point of frustration is the locked doors that can only be opened by Rogues. Most of the zones they revamped are under utilized zones. Kaesora might be a candidate but I like to old Kaesora as it is. My old guild learn many things about raiding in that dungeon.

Quote from: Lorathir
No drop, level restricted gear that's sweet

PoM has stuff like that but people hardly ever go to PoM. You know why, because most players don't spend the time to research new/revamped zones and find out what goodies drop there. Adding convoluted scripts to non end game zones is a sure way of not getting it used. Ask yourself, how many guild have solved the chessboard problem or kill the new bristlebane in PoM. The old inner Acrylia Caverns key is a clasic example of complecated scripts failing. When it comes to pleasing the masses, the KISS principle applies.

Quote from: Lorathir
People are lazy/scared/can't be arsed to do exciting stuff when the alternative is too easy to get the same or better results. Make the exciting scarey zones tempting again and I guarantee you this - the casual player won't care about 65 when the journey there is made once again an exciting, dangerous but ultimately rewarding experience.

My experience of the casual player is that they are highly allergic to danger and excitement regardless of the reward.

Quote from: Lorathir
Why do you think people are racing to 65?

Not all casual players don't race to 65. There is nothing to be gained from it. They can't afford lvl 63-64 spells let alone lvl 65 spells. I know plenty of casual players that are under 60 and will remain so for month to come. At the rate they consume content, they won't need a new expanssion for a year or two.  As for why some people do, there are lots of reasons but thats another discussion for another time.

Quote from: CatrikaJust because some individual wants to think he is a uber person/joins uber guild.. and raids 3 or so hours a night.. Does not give him the right to items that a CASUAL player shouldn't be able to get in the same amount of time.

Guild should not equal items..
Time should equal items..

um no. from that point of view, I should get the same reward killing orcs in crushboned for an hour as I do in Time for an hour. EQ is based on Risk VS Reward. If Casual players are able to survive the same degree of risk they should receive the same reward. GoD is a good implementation of that. Everyone can try to get into Kod'Taz. Everyone has to survive the same risk in order to achieve the reward, access to Kod'Taz and uber loot. Once in Kod'Taz, same deal, everyone can try to kill named mobs in Kod'Taz and get the same reward.

Quote from: CatrikaIf you have 2000, it should unlock everything everywhere under 2000 points.. this would get rid of the.. hey i dont wanna do GuK cause all my stuff is in butcherblock crap.

Yes it would get rid of the don't wanna do GuK crap but not for the better. The majority of people will go to the easiest LDoN camp and keep doing that one. You essentialy remove any insentive to do any of the other camps. LDoN has illustrated the selfish nature of most EQ players. They only care about their personal gain and not in helping others.

Quote from: Catrika
It takes NOTHING to get into Time.. 4 zones.. Can be done in a few days. a couple if the guys are up. so dont go saying hey.. bla bla.. it takes so much time. all it takes is enough idiots to get together and think they have formed or are the uberguild.. And anyone who DID actually Put in the beginning time and went through the zone progression.. boohoo.. you get the priveledge of beating the zones/quest to get there, and seeing them. You did get stat points on your charm aswell did you not?

um right. Not sure this even deserves a comment.

As a CASUAL PLAYER in a FAMILY GUILD it tooke me 5 days to get a BST epic and 7 to get a CLR epic. Does this make the journey any less meaningful for those that took a full year to do the same? If I can do that in a Family Guild, then they should be able to get into Kod Taz if they put their mind to it. In fact, on several servers, people have banded together in informal alliances and progressed through PoP.

EQ is the land of equal opportunity. Everyone starts out with nothing and ends up with something more then nothing. How far you get depends on how good you are and how much you invest. Time is not the only investment required. There are investments in research and social cultural investments. If you don't invest in all factors that promote success in eq you are less likely to suceed. An uber guild getting to time or an alliance of family guilds getting to time put just as much effort into it one way or another. Some just take longer to complete the journey than others.

The choice is yours, Deal with the hand you where delt or leave the table.

Quote from: AneyaThe choice is yours, Deal with the hand you where delt or leave the table.

P.S. and in my opinion, Afterlife and FoH decided to leave the table.

lol.. lets not compare orcs to apples please..

and sorry, there is nothing risky about 70 people going into an ele/time plane..

things die just as quick as any normal group xping basically.  

only you got 10 clerics, 10 druids, a couple shaman healing instead of 1..  the risk is basically the same.
numbers counteract risk.

and yes you can get time flagged in a couple days.. sorry if that bursts some sorta bubble you have about the plane.

Are you trying to say that an uberguild death hurts the character anymore then an Average player?

Risk goes just as far as the hp=0, That's  it..  Yer not risking losing your corpse forever are ya?.. nope, didn't think so.. so get off the risk vs reward.

its just as risky for the character of a small guild to take on such and such content as it is for 70+ players to blast through a zone in a few hours.

this game basically tears down family type guilds by forcing people to either be compacent in not having anything ever.. or leaving the guild to become one of the
supposed elite who think their blank doesn't stink.  A game should not be that way, but offer different routes to the same thing.

some people enjoy the thrill of 70 person raids some dont.

QuoteWhats wrong with soloable zones? Its hard enougth trying to get people to explore new or revemped zones, forcing them to have to group is not going to make them want to go.

Nothing at all. There should be soloable zones, but EQ is really about grouping and in grouping that's where you should get the most exp and best loot. They should have an option and not feel FORCED into grouping, but WANT to group because the rewards are better - and not just loot, but a better gaming experience.

QuoteSeb is still quite popular on my server. The only real point of frustration is the locked doors that can only be opened by Rogues. Most of the zones they revamped are under utilized zones. Kaesora might be a candidate but I like to old Kaesora as it is. My old guild learn many things about raiding in that dungeon.

Yes, it's still recieving traffic on my servers too, but it's drastically reduced. Perhaps Seb wasn't the best example to use but you get where I'm coming from. There's a boat load of zones that are underused and could use a 2004 lick o paint.

QuotePoM has stuff like that but people hardly ever go to PoM.

POM sucks since it's revamp. It rocked before - I ask you, what other zone has had a whole website devoted to it? People aren't going to POM because they actually *have* researched it, and got a unanimous "POM suxxors" when they asked about it. Hard to drag people along to a zone that's got fubar'ed.

QuoteMy experience of the casual player is that they are highly allergic to danger and excitement regardless of the reward.

You could be right there. But who's to say that wouldn't change if SOE hired me to do their crap for them? Hmm, maybe if I swear more... :twisted:

Quote from: LorathirNothing at all. There should be soloable zones, but EQ is really about grouping and in grouping that's where you should get the most exp and best loot. They should have an option and not feel FORCED into grouping, but WANT to group because the rewards are better - and not just loot, but a better gaming experience.

Then Torgiran mines would be an ideal zone. Can solo there for decent loot but to get the good stuff of the two bosses need 6 and 18 people respectively.

Quote from: Lorathir
Yes, it's still recieving traffic on my servers too, but it's drastically reduced. Perhaps Seb wasn't the best example to use but you get where I'm coming from. There's a boat load of zones that are underused and could use a 2004 lick o paint.[/qotue]
My fear is that even with a revamp most people won't go. Those who do reap the rewards, those who don't lose out. You can take a horse to water but can't make it drink it.

Quote from: Lorathir
POM sucks since it's revamp. It rocked before - I ask you, what other zone has had a whole website devoted to it? People aren't going to POM because they actually *have* researched it, and got a unanimous "POM suxxors" when they asked about it. Hard to drag people along to a zone that's got fubar'ed.[/qotue]

I've read that site before and after revamp. Sadly I never managed to go there before revamp because it was next to impossible to get to unless you where uber. Had they moved PoM to GD without revamp I would be able to form a fair impression of what it was before. However, I have explored PoM V2 and like it. Trouble is getting people to go is like pulling teeth.

It is just so typical of the hardcore players mentality to think that their needs and wants are different from those of casual gamers.

When they've beaten the toughest zone available to them they have 'beaten the game' and scream for new content. Newsflash: casuals "beat the game" too. They beat the toughest zones available to them. There are even tougher zones in the game, but in practice they are unreachable either because
a) SOE put a timesink in front of those zones that keeps hardcore players out for a few months. For casual player that timesink is virtually impossible to overcome without vegetating into a mindless drone. Or
b) The zones require a power upgrade that takes months if not years of AA grinding and gear upgrades to attain, just to become even remotely doable. Yay, more vegetating. New expansions are coming out much faster then casual players can progress thru the old content, and thats a good thing too because without them people would simply quit on account of the game becoming too boring

I frequent over a dozen zones on a regular basis, and i never ever see an EP+ flagged player there other then to farm items for cash. Pre-LDoN, EP+ flagged player flocked to PoFire like newbies to Paludal, and a lot still do on a regular basis when they are not raiding. Saying that casual players take the road of least resistance and concentrate themselves in a few zones is the height of hypocrisy.
Newsflash #2: xp grinding is by far the most boring aspect of the game. You can't blame people for wanting to get over it as fast as they can and flock to high ZEM zones. And thanks to mudflation (which is turn is caused for the largest part by hardcore players pharming and selling items that casual players cannot obtain themselves), a couple of thousand pp will buy you gear that makes hunting in just about every pre-PoP zone a moot point. The risk-vs-reward ratio of doing Kael raids is near infinite, because there's 0 reward in it for the present day casual player.

All these points were already discussed in the first half of this thread, in much more detail (and a much calmer state of mind). Just as the discussion is starting to get constructive, and people actually start thinking about solutions to the current problems with the state of EQ that would benefit casual and hardcore gamer alike, the thread suddenly degenerates again because some people feel the need to enlighten us with their views that casual gamer should just stfu and stop whining. Well you can take your 'enlightened view' and stick it where the sun don't shine. As my pappa used to say: if you aint got nothing nice to say, STFU.

Newsflash #3: like it or not, casual gamers account for 95% of Sony's revenue for this game. Without them the game would be dead instantly. The reverse however is not the case. Instead of whining about the casuals whining, try joining the discussion in a constructive way, because its in everyone's best interest

Quote from: CoprolithUrim, that quote in your sig couldnt be more appropriate to your last post.

Quote from: CoprolithAs my pappa used to say: if you aint got nothing nice to say, STFU

Coprolith, STFU  :D

That was probably the most rational and thought-out explanation about the casual (read: non-raider who won't see EP and such) problems, Coprolith.  It's interesting to see that both raiders and non-raiders have the exact same problems...it's just that it's on a different level/area.  Although the mentality from some raiders that casuals simply haven't done everything (yet they have) gets old and laughable fast.

That was me being nice Urim.
"You wouldn't like me when I'm angry"
:D ==>  :mrgreen:

Coprolith angry = enough mathematical proofs and equations to make most people break out their old college books.

Catrika you couldn't be any more wrong IMO.

Your ignorance is showing.  If getting to TIME was so easy, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.  Then every level 50 toon would be in TIME.  Everyone would have the uber loots, and the game would be extremely boring.  

The whole idea of having different gear in different LDON camps is to make you explore and experience the whole expansion.  Not just the easiest part of it, which is obviously the only thing you want to do.  

Keep in mind also, part of the draw of EQ is the social aspect.  Sony wants big guilds, that become well oiled machines, by winning and losing together.  They want us to make websites, and discuss the game.  If the content were as easy as you want, then we wouldn't need big guilds.  There would be no challenge.  

You were right about one thing though.  A person's gear, aa, or level does not make them better than anyone else.  Just means you may have more hp.  Big deal!  Don't forget though, if you want all those hp, you have to work for it.  That means long boring difficult plows in VT.  That means plowing for hours to Isle 4 in POA and failing to spawn the Avatar.  If you only want to to play an hour at a time, that's great.  Do what makes you happy.  That's not punishment, it's the challenge.  If you choose not to accept the challenge, fine.  Good for you.  Some people enjoy that challenge.

Quote
The whole idea of having different gear in different LDON camps is to make you explore and experience the whole expansion.

While I agree with the intent, the implementation went awry. Casters can stay in the most populous zone (BB) and gear up fully. Leather classes need to farm the LEAST popular zone, for the same armor.

A better implementation would be to have the BPs and Bracers in Butcher, the Legs and Gloves in Guk, the Arms and Caps in Everfrost, etc. Then all classes would have equal incentive to explore.

I am also going to pipeup on one thing that some folks have not taken in to consideration.

Uber Guilds and how they get phat loot.

Do understand that phat loot is not handed to "Ubers" on a Silver Platter once they get through the time sinks of getting in to zone XXX.

The mobs to fight for these loots are TOUGH. It takes many hours, days and even weeks of engagement to beat these mobs. Death after death after death with extreme frustration. It takes EXTREME teamwork and  knowledge/skill to kill most of these high tiered mobs. These skills and teamwork do not just 'happen' they mature through many hours, days, weeks, months and even years of playing together. Your average family casual raiding guild simply does not have this 'Military' like teamwork down to a science and thus would never kill these mobs even if they gave them access to the zones.

Do keep that in mind please :)

Edit: Corrected some spelling and grammar. I suck at spelling and grammar --hehe

Quote from: CoprolithIt is just so typical of the hardcore players mentality to think that their needs and wants are different from those of casual gamers.

Eh, I'd say it's more typical of people to think that their needs and wants are different from others. We all like to think we're 'special' until cold reality beats the illusions out of us.

Quote
When they've beaten the toughest zone available to them they have 'beaten the game' and scream for new content. Newsflash: casuals "beat the game" too. They beat the toughest zones available to them. There are even tougher zones in the game, but in practice they are unreachable either because
a) SOE put a timesink in front of those zones that keeps hardcore players out for a few months. For casual player that timesink is virtually impossible to overcome without vegetating into a mindless drone. Or
b) The zones require a power upgrade that takes months if not years of AA grinding and gear upgrades to attain, just to become even remotely doable. Yay, more vegetating. New expansions are coming out much faster then casual players can progress thru the old content, and thats a good thing too because without them people would simply quit on account of the game becoming too boring

I have to disagree here. Take, for example, Veeshan's Peak. It's a zone that's now available for anyone who really wants to get into it. 90% of the key is soloable, and Trakanon is easily killable with a couple of groups of decent players with bazaar gear.  Without the rabid competition over the quest camps that occurred during Kunark, the whole quest can be done over the course of a week of moderate play. VP still has gear that would be an upgrade for a lot of casual players (41% haste for example). Every time I've gone with a few friends to clean house though, there's been nobody else there and a full set of spawns for us.

Sleepers Tomb and North ToV are all accessible to casual players, requiring a single kill or a bit of a run to enter, respectively.

Realistically, the only zones that are still even moderately exclusive are:
1) Elemental Planes
2) Time
3) High end GoD.
4) Vex Thall

At least on my server, even the elemental planes are becoming fairly crowded. At last count there were a dozen guilds, roughly 1200-1400 people, that were elemental flagged (a couple of the guilds are really large), with at least two more only needing one or two kills to get there. I know of other servers where there are even more people flagged for the zones.

Content that was once considered "hard core" definitely does trickle down to the casual player.

The biggest thing I'm hearing is not that casual players want more content, but that they want better content, which tends to equate to better loot and better exp. Certaintly the amount of content targetted at casual players far exceeds that which is targetted at the hard core players.

Quote
I frequent over a dozen zones on a regular basis, and i never ever see an EP+ flagged player there other then to farm items for cash. Pre-LDoN, EP+ flagged player flocked to PoFire like newbies to Paludal, and a lot still do on a regular basis when they are not raiding. Saying that casual players take the road of least resistance and concentrate themselves in a few zones is the height of hypocrisy.

I'm going to take it that you're not EP flagged, because Fire just doesn't support that many groups, and Earth is better experience anyway  :lol: I'll certaintly agree that grinding isn't my favorite part of the game, and that most people will gravitate towards areas that will let them minimize the time they spend doing this. On the other hand, I know that I often wind up getting less than stellar exp, simply because I'd rather do something other than a pure grind with my time. This may put me in the minority /shrug.

Quote
Newsflash #2: xp grinding is by far the most boring aspect of the game. You can't blame people for wanting to get over it as fast as they can and flock to high ZEM zones. And thanks to mudflation (which is turn is caused for the largest part by hardcore players pharming and selling items that casual players cannot obtain themselves), a couple of thousand pp will buy you gear that makes hunting in just about every pre-PoP zone a moot point. The risk-vs-reward ratio of doing Kael raids is near infinite, because there's 0 reward in it for the present day casual player.

That's odd. My Beastlord is still wearing his White Dragonscale Helm from a Tormax kill a while back. The Avatar of War and King Tormax still drop pretty decent loot for casual players. I'm trying to figure out exactly what hardcore players farm and sell that a casual player couldn't get on their own if they wanted to. I'm sure there are some, but in all honestly most of the items I chose to farm for cash were open to pretty much anyone who wanted to give it a shot. I sold off a bit of Ornate, some drops from Droga, a bunch of tradeskill junk (which I am now kicking myself for, but that's another story... damn shawl!), and some CT gear.

Quote
All these points were already discussed in the first half of this thread, in much more detail (and a much calmer state of mind). Just as the discussion is starting to get constructive, and people actually start thinking about solutions to the current problems with the state of EQ that would benefit casual and hardcore gamer alike, the thread suddenly degenerates again because some people feel the need to enlighten us with their views that casual gamer should just stfu and stop whining. Well you can take your 'enlightened view' and stick it where the sun don't shine. As my pappa used to say: if you aint got nothing nice to say, STFU.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and conjecture that where someone gains their experience isn't the heart of the problem. Even for an EP flagged person, the additional spots to grind in amount to a handful of camps in Fire and Earth, which are hardly enough to justify the hue and cry being raised. So, this then leaves the time not spent grinding. We can largely disregard the hardcore, non-raiding players for the purpose of this discussion, because they have access to the same content as the casual player, they just have more time to spend there. We'll then consider the non-raiding player ('casual') and the raiding player ('raider' or 'hard core'). Obviously, the raider spends a good chunk of time living up to his namesake, often in areas unattainable to the casual player. What would you like to have made available to the casual player to do in lieu of raiding?

Overall, we have the following content available to the raider, but not the casual player:
Time
Time B
Fire
Earth
Earth B
Water
Air
Vex Thall
High end GoD.

I'm not really sure that this disparity merits all the fuss that's being made over it, to be perfectly honest.

Quote
Newsflash #3: like it or not, casual gamers account for 95% of Sony's revenue for this game. Without them the game would be dead instantly. The reverse however is not the case. Instead of whining about the casuals whining, try joining the discussion in a constructive way, because its in everyone's best interest

I'd certaintly be interested in hearing where you came up with the 95% figure. Like I say, on my server there are, at a bare minimum, 1200 accounts with EP flagged toons. You're now talking about a server population of 23,800 casual accounts just to make up for the EP flagged folks. This doesn't count the people who are in Vex Thall, or those who play 40 hours a week but aren't into the raiding scene.

Quote from: CoprolithWhen they've beaten the toughest zone available to them they have 'beaten the game' and scream for new content. Newsflash: casuals "beat the game" too. They beat the toughest zones available to them. There are even tougher zones in the game, but in practice they are unreachable either because
a) SOE put a timesink in front of those zones that keeps hardcore players out for a few months. For casual player that timesink is virtually impossible to overcome without vegetating into a mindless drone. Or
b) The zones require a power upgrade that takes months if not years of AA grinding and gear upgrades to attain, just to become even remotely doable. Yay, more vegetating. New expansions are coming out much faster then casual players can progress thru the old content, and thats a good thing too because without them people would simply quit on account of the game becoming too boring

Beating the "toughest zone available to you" does not equate to beating the game. That is only true if you've beaten THE toughest zone in the game. It's called progression: the only constant common denominator between casuals and ubers. You beat Kunark dragons, you move onto Velious. You kick arse in Velious, you move onto Luclin etc etc. When a casual player beats the toughest zone available to him/her they still have numerous, tougher, options available. That does not ring true for hardcore uber guilds. Not that I really sympathise that much with them because that's the path they've chosen to take with the time that they have available. And really, this only happens to a very select few people. Personally, I hope I never am in a position to say "I've beaten the game". After that, what else is there?

As for timesinks, they, like previously "high-level" zones, become more easier to work through as time goes on and the average players gear gets better. But that's kinda the crux of the matter. Everything gets easier for everyone in a very gradual fashion so new content is always opening up to all but the most hardcore of players unless you make a deliberate attempt to not level, not get plat and not improve your gear. I haven't known too many people who play like that. Then again according to Catrika you'd get the answer that these timesinks were so incredibly easy you can accomplish them by just doing an /ooc in PoK for X number of people to complete PoN hedge event and an hour later you'd be done with it :roll:

Quote from: CoprolithSaying that casual players take the road of least resistance and concentrate themselves in a few zones is the height of hypocrisy.

Newsflash #2: xp grinding is by far the most boring aspect of the game. You can't blame people for wanting to get over it as fast as they can and flock to high ZEM zones.

All types of players take this path but if you asked those players I'm sure a lot of them would say that "to have fun" is their #1 goal in the game. The definitions of fun are very broad though, for some xp grinding is fun because they are steadily improving their characters abilities and the light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter as each level/aa point passes. The problem, and this stems directly from players incapacity to not compare themselves with other players (gear, levels, aa) especially at the high end, is that light in the tunnel keeps getting pushed further back as each expansion comes along. Regardless though, no-one is forced to do anything in this game. The game is what you make of it, end of story.

Quote from: CoprolithNewsflash #3: like it or not, casual gamers account for 95% of Sony's revenue for this game. Without them the game would be dead instantly. The reverse however is not the case. Instead of whining about the casuals whining, try joining the discussion in a constructive way, because its in everyone's best interest

Yes and most casual players are, I assume, having fun. If not, why are they playing? Other than the age-old "if I put 10 hours into the game why shouldn't I get exactly the same reward as what an uber player gets in 10 hours" complaint (which I guess those disagreeing on will just have to agree to disagree), what exactly are the casuals whining about?

Really getting tired of all the excuses people. Where the heck does this angst about casual players being able to get gear as good as yourself come from anyway? Its not what casual players can obtain, its about how long it takes them to obtain it. 3 years ago hardcore players were saying exactly the same thing about their Sleeper's Tomb/NToV gear. I don't hear anyone complaining that my current gear is approaching ST/NToV quality now. Casual players/guild will always be gimp compared to hardcore players. No casual player is denying you your right to your uber-gear, you've worked for it. If i spent 5 years of doing LDoN mission to completely gear up in the best available armor available to me, then I've earned it. If a casual guild raiding only once a week finally sets foot in VT after 5 years of playing EQ, even tho most of their members are bazaar/LDoN equiped, then they've earned it.

We all get what we deserve, when we deserve it. Anyone saying otherwise is spewing elitist crap, period.

I suppose the Uber versus the Casual debate could go on forever.

I think it boils down to the basic premise from an Uber Guild stand point of:

I had to kill XXX mob to obtain YYY-001 Uber Equipment.

In order for you to obtain this same quality of gear you also should have to kill XXX mob to obtain YYY-001 Uber Equipment.

If you cannot kill XXX then you dont deserve YYY-001.

I suppose that it in a nutshell really.

Ya know what the worst thing is that Sony ever developed for Everquest? The ability to Dye Armor any shade you wished. To me that is the worst thing ever implemented.

Quote from: CoprolithReally getting tired of all the excuses people. Where the heck does this angst about casual players being able to get gear as good as yourself come from anyway? Its not what casual players can obtain, its about how long it takes them to obtain it. 3 years ago hardcore players were saying exactly the same thing about their Sleeper's Tomb/NToV gear. I don't hear anyone complaining that my current gear is approaching ST/NToV quality now. Casual players/guild will always be gimp compared to hardcore players. No casual player is denying you your right to your uber-gear, you've worked for it. If i spent 5 years of doing LDoN mission to completely gear up in the best available armor available to me, then I've earned it. If a casual guild raiding only once a week finally sets foot in VT after 5 years of playing EQ, even tho most of their members are bazaar/LDoN equiped, then they've earned it.

What excuses? What angst?

The fact remains that outside of the zones I listed above, casual players have access to every zone in EQ should they choose to persue it. I'm still not sure where the whole "not enough content" argument comes into play.

Quote
We all get what we deserve, when we deserve it. Anyone saying otherwise is spewing elitist crap, period.

I think that's a little naive, but then perhaps I'm just overly cynical. At any rate, this seems more like a statement a hard core player might make: sure, casual players don't have access to current raid zones, but they will eventually. They'll get what they deserve when they earn it.

Quote from: xaoshaenThey'll get what they deserve when they earn it.

That is perhaps the most intellegent thing said in this entire thread.

Let me define "They" though:

They = Everyone.

Well...would anyome object to this scenario...

Let's assume for example, GoD raiding force spends 6 hours on a raid and obtains the Chestguard of Scooby Doo.

What if a casual, lvl 65 player did a quest that takes 6 hours too - and obtains a Chestguard of Scrappy Doo? Half the stats of the Scooby BP - maybe a quarter?  What if it could be upgraded by doing a similar quest, similar timesink to make it the Scooby BP? Say, a total quest time of I dunno - 18 hours, 24 maybe in 3, 4, maybe 5 sittings? You could face mobs tuned to your level with increasing difficulty in perhaps an instanced dungeon.

What do you think? Risk vs Reward is represented there, time taken to get the item is tripled, maybe quadrupled when compaired to obtaining it the raid way. Raiders get their 60+ man event they like, soloers/two groupers who can't put in the online time end game guilds require get the same bp. Log on, do your Scooby Doo quest for an hour or so, log off and pick up again in a few days time - maybe you can only 'EQ' at the weekend.

Anyone see any problem with this?

Quote from: CoprolithWe all get what we deserve, when we deserve it. Anyone saying otherwise is spewing elitist crap, period.

Corp, I agree with you that we reap what we sow. However there are some people that don't listen to reason on both sides of the spectrum. If they insist on ranting, let them and put them on /ignore. In the old days of usenet we used to have killfiles sadly forums don't have those so we just have to do it subconciously.

When it comes to statistics you are a real stickler for correctness and I respect you for that. However if we are to solve this problem, the same attention to detail applies and the problem is far more complex. What we are dealing with is the social cultural context that has evolved around eq and gaming in general. If we are at fault for anything it is oversimplefying the problem.

If you have ever looked at Nick Yee's stuff you can get a feel for just how complex the problem is. http://www.nickyee.com

In one of his more recent articles which is based on several of his previous works plus a strong back ground in Social Psychology,
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000428.php

We have the following factors influencing the psychology of a player.

Dynamics

• Relating
  
• Loyalist
  
• Mediator
  
• Aesthete
  
• Performer
  
• Egoist
  
• Leader
  
• Manager
  
• Theoretician
  [/list:u]
  Traits
  
  
  
  • Modesty
    
  • Need for Order
    
  • Dutiful
    
  • Achievement
    
  • Warmth
    
  • Estraversion
    
  • Assertiveness
    
  • Trust
    
  • Compliance
    [/list:u]
    Motivations
    
    
    
    • Group/Lead
      
    • Relationships
      
    • Role / Immersion
      
    • Achieve
      
    • Grief
      [/list:u]
      
      That is
      9 factors in Dynamics
      9 factors in Traits
      5 factors in Motivations
      
      Assuming there are only 2 degrees for each factor, 0 and 100,
      total number of combinations there are:
      512 possible combinations of Dynamic factors
      512 possible combinations of Traits
      32 possible combinations of motivation factors.
      
      Total there are 2 to the 23rd power number of combinations before factoring in degrees. Thats approximately 8 million. We are talking about a multivariable problem that goes beyond most peoples ability to grasp.
      
      Assuming an even distribution of eq players among the 8 million combinations, no 2 eq player is playing the game for the same reason. This is easy to prove, half a million players into 8 million combinations is 0.0625 players per combination. Even if we reject half the combinations as being unlikely, there are still 0.125 players per combination. From this we can argue that no single individual can say their personal experience represent those of other players let alone the majority of eq players. However this does not take into account of skew based on culture etc and I don't have any data on that nor would anyone be able to come up with it without some serious research.
      
      Before we can solve the problem we have to understand the situations. To understand the situation we need to understand just how people and these social cultural factors interact with the game. Any solution that does not take this into consideration will fail eventualy.

Kash, how you taunt us so with the ability to edit. Maybe if I raid.. :P

Wanted to clarify my use of 'quest' in my last post. By quest I didn't necessarily mean non-combat encounters - quite the opposite.

Lorathir look at it this way.

Lets say it takes 6 hour for a raid of 54 to kill mob x that drops Chestguard of Scooby Doo.

Each individual's expected loot is 0.00308642.

In other words it would take 324 hours a raid of 54 to get one Chestguard of Scooby Doo each raider.

So for things to be equal a single player would have to put in 324 hours to get an equivalent piece of loot.

My suggestion's flexible enough to adapt to that. You are figuring in the fact that not everyone would be of the same class, therefore the whole raid wouldn't all be after the same thing?

Its a probability question. To simplify the equation, we assume that item x is something everyone wants and it drops every time. Given those criteria my calculations hold true. The question I'm asking is how many hours before each raider gets one piece of loot.

Now it may actualy take longer than that because of the pseudo randomness of loot etc but in the long run things average out so we can rule out all those variations. If you don't want to rule out those varioution then think of my statement as the minimum time required before each raider gets 1 item they want assuming equal distribution of wealth.

The point is people are not making a fair comparison when talking about equal time spent for equal loot since they forget that the majority of people on any particular raid get squat.

Lorathir,

I don't think that class discrepancies need play a role in figuring the relative costs. If it takes a raid of 54 people 6 hours to get one piece of loot, it still required 324 man hours of effort to acquire it. You would then expect 324 man hours from a casual player to obtain an item of comparable quality. This example is a bit extreme though (fortunately!). A more common scenario would be something like Fennin Ro. Say 72 people, two hours, two pieces of loot. Making each piece of loot worth roughly 72 man hours. Playing 3 hours a night, four times a week as a casual player, it would take you about 6 months to earn one piece of loot. Of course, this example is flawed too: it takes an overly simplified approach to raiding. You'd somehow have to figure in the endless hours spent flagging and backflagging, the failed attempts as you learn the encounter, and the other assorted overhead costs.

I find myself in an unusual position, as I do raid quite a bit. However, my Beastlord who I vastly prefer playing these days, isn't considered a "main" character, and thus is ineleigible for any raid drops. This effectively makes him a casual character: I can only spend the time that I have online while not raiding to advance him in some way, be it experience, loot, questing, or simply exploring new areas. I think that LDoN definitely had the right idea: it's been great to incrementally earn upgrades, that would have been considered uber as recently as Luclin, and are certaintly competitive with the PoP environment. So far, my Beastlord has 90 wins and 1 loss in LDoN, and I generally wrap up an adventure in 35-45 minutes. Figuring 45 minutes each to account for the hard runs that I've done, figure on around 90 * .75 = 67.5 hours spent to earn my points, which so far have purchased me an excellent (augmented) weapon, a couple of spells, a pet focus, and some points saved to purchase a bracer once I open up Guk. All in all, not a bad return on my time investment.

Before someone else brings up the fact that I had 5 other people putting in time as well as myself, let me point out that they also recieved the same point reward as I did. Thus, while six times my man hours were spent, six times my rewards were earned, settling the ratio back to the original figure.

Ok, gotcha.

To simplify my question then - would raiders object to me getting the same gear they do, at the same rate that they do - but solo? Naturally, I would be tested to the same extent as they are, albeit with mobs scaled down to accomodate a single player battle?

Well, keep in mind that a truly casual player is looking at six months of work for a single high end upgrade, and the high end raider is already off and running on another expansion. To my mind, this is essentially what LDoN already did: gave us incemental access to top end gear from the last major expansion (Luclin). It'll be interesting to see what the next tier of items in LDoN will have...

I know, I certaintly wouldn't mind seeing more incremental access to allow non-raiders to earn nice gear. It would be a bitch to balance though. You'd have to take into consideration all the overhead time costs for raiders that I mentioned before, which raise all kinds of nasty questions. How many attempts on the Rathe should be considered an average number for man-hour calculations, for example?

Given SOE's history of 'balance' decisions, I wouldn't hold out much hope ofr a solution beyond LDoN. A good idea to be sure, but the implementation sucked in a variety of ways.

Quote from: LorathirOk, gotcha.

To simplify my question then - would raiders object to me getting the same gear they do, at the same rate that they do - but solo? Naturally, I would be tested to the same extent as they are, albeit with mobs scaled down to accomodate a single player battle?

Solo yes, Single group no. Keep in mind and you have argued this point yourself, EQ is a social game. Grouping should be encouraged. As xaoshaen said, LDoN was a good attempt to address this problem but we still have the problem of 72 hours worth of LDoN being a big time sink. Even if we prove mathematicaly that casual players getting loot from LDoN are getting just as good a deal as raiders, some won't beleive it.

Quote from: TardarCatrika you couldn't be any more wrong IMO.

Your ignorance is showing.  If getting to TIME was so easy, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.  Then every level 50 toon would be in TIME.  Everyone would have the uber loots, and the game would be extremely boring.  

The whole idea of having different gear in different LDON camps is to make you explore and experience the whole expansion.  Not just the easiest part of it, which is obviously the only thing you want to do.  

Hmm.. so what you are saying is that some classes have it easier then others?..

I see no reason why such and such class should have access to his LDoN gear easier then any other such and such class

and yes i know its hecka easy to do an everfrost adventure on hard mostly..

all instances should be completely random in what dungeon you get nomatter where.. that would take care of that would it not?

and as far as the time thing goes.. lol.. once more.. yes it is that fraggin easy..

Umm.. join uberguild 101.. Raid number qualify into 4 zones.. wham bam thankya mam.. you can now enter PoTime.
Granted you wont be able to enter elementals by yourself.. but I wasn't talking about them now was I?

xaoshaen,
Your insightfulness has earned you a Title.

Choose whatever you wish and I will edit it as needed. PM me your choice.

Corp,
Your number crunching and dedication to our class as well as civilness in such a hot topic also has earned you a Title.

Choose whatever you wish and I will edit it as need. PM me your choice.

Actually for an equivalent amount of time to get "Chestguard of Scooby Doo" it would be much more than the 324 hours stated earlier. You also have to factor in not only the amount of man hours needed to kill the mob that drops the item, but also all the man hours it took to get flagged to even get to the mob that drops the item.

So, for instance for a time equivalent item, at the very least it would take the man hours to kill all 4 elemental boss (TRC, Coir, Fennin, Xegony) and to get to and kill the god in PoTime and at the most the man hours needed to kill every flag progression mob.

For a drop from Inktu'Ta it would take all the man hours of doing Smith Rondo, Vxed, Tipt, each of the 4 ikkinz raids, Uqua, Cynosure.

And if you want to get technical you would also include the average amount of times of failures to learn encounters and such. So to get one loot it would require a ridiculously large amount of time for the casual player.

So in the end LDoN was a huge boon to the casual player, allowing some pretty good gear and not requiring anywhere near the equivalent man hours to get.

When it comes to content tho, i still feel that putting in content for high levels benefits more people than putting in content for low levels. How many people thought they would ever see NToV back when velious came out (i knew i never thought i would see it), that was HIGH end content back then only for the hardcore. Nowadays pretty much anyone can go there, its no longer very hard, bazaar geared toons can tear it up pretty good. Couple of expansions down the road people will be saying the same thing about PoP and GoD as bazaar geared people will be able to get to the high end zones  right now with little to no problems. But by putting in low level zones the only people gonna benefit from those are the alts of people who would rather just get back up to the high level and new people who won't know the difference.

Quote from: KashmiirI think it boils down to the basic premise from an Uber Guild stand point of:

I had to kill XXX mob to obtain YYY-001 Uber Equipment.

No.

Consider this: how many hardcore raiders are 'old guard', that is, have been with EQ since the beginning. And how many hardcore raiders joined only recently? Is it fair that new apps to a hardcore guild get decked out in PoT gear in a single day for which the old guard had to work 5 years, even though the new apps have yet to prove themselves? Apparently it is, because i never hear complaints. The reason for this is of course that the old guard need these new apps in order to progress further. As has been mentioned before, they've beaten the old content, and are now interested only in the new. Who helps them with that and how they got their gear is of no consequence, its the exploration of the new that's important.
As i have said over and over again, it's exactly the same with casuals players. Once they've beaten the old content, they want to move on the new, and they need improved gear to do that. If you dont care about people getting decked out in 1 day with the best equipment that the prev expansion had to offer, then why does it matter that casual gamers get "decked out" over the course of many years in gear that to you is 4 or 5 expansions old? Casual players do not and never will infringe upon the content for hardcore players. We won't be seeing public, open Quarm raids for years, and by then the hardcore raiders will be decking out their new apps in insert-name-of-future-expansion-zone-here anyway.

----------------------------------------------------

Aneya:
Good to see someone adding constructive discussion to the group. However i don't think that looking at all the combinations of dynamics and traits and motivations of the players is the way to go. As you pointed out, the number of possible combinations is staggering. The combinations are also not relevant to the problem, mostly they will sort themselves out as long as the basic types are catered to. In fact, i don't think we've even established what the problem exactly is.

But to follow thru on your posts, personally I would make the distinction on playing habits and motivations. With playing habits i would distinguish:
- people who like to solo/2box/multibox
- people who like to group
- people who like to raid
- people who like to quest
- people who like to do tradeskills
- people who like to roleplay

Any combination of these 3 with weightfactors is possible. The distinction between casual and hardcore players is often made on the basis of playing time per week. There are in fact hardcore solo'ers by this definition. Another, and better definition, is what your personal goals (i.e. motivations) are in this game. One of the Devs recently said (can't remember who or where, there's been so many communiques lately): "Anyone who aims to get PoTime+ gear is not a casual player". I very much agree with this statement. But we mustn't forget the time we live in. 3 years ago the statement would have been "Anyone who aims to get NToV gear is not a casual player". But now, years later, that statement is no longer true, because NToV quality gear is obtainable for casual players. In 4 or 5 more years, PoTime quality will be.

But i sidetrack. Anyways, the possible combinations of playing habits and motivations are still staggering. But as i said most of these combinations will sort themselves out as long as the basic types are catered to. The only combination that really stands out is the hardcore raider. EQ has evolved to the point where the hardcore raiders are playing an entirely different game then the casual players. Its Sony own fault for letting it come this far but what's done is done. The question is now where do we go from here?
How do you maximize the potential of new content for every type of player? I do not know the answer, but i do know what doesn't work.
This is where i come back to the statement "Anyone who aims to get PoTime+ gear is not a casual player". Its all very nice to say this, but Sony hasnt been acting upon it. They are treating their player base as if  everyone has already obtained the best equipment available to him in the previous expansion. But not only does the best available equipment available differ for casual and hardcore players (as it should be!), the rate at which they obtain them also differs greatly (and this should not be!). As has been pointed out, it takes years for a casual gamer to deck himself out in a complete set of LDoN gear. Casual raiding guilds havent even "beaten" Velious yet but there's hardly been any new raid targets for casual guilds in recent years. Sony is dangling a carrot at the end of a stick in front of the casual players, and every new expansion is making the stick longer. At the current rate, soon the stick will be so long that you cannot even see the carrot anymore. The gap between casual and hardcore has become so large that middle-of-road-content no longer works. It'd be too hard for the casual players, and trivial for the hardcore.
The net result is that casual players would get stuck in old content and become bored and frustated, hardcore players would fly through the new content and become become bored and frustated.

What we've seen is that in recent years Sony is starting to dish out new expansions at an increased rate, but targetted only at particular subgroups of their player base instead. PoP was mostly high end (at the time of release anyway), LoY was aimed almost exclusively at the casual gamer, LDoN was an interesting experiment but in practice more suited for the casual gamer and GoD almost exclusively at the high end again.
But this doesn't solve anything. When a hardcore expansion is released the casual players become bored and frustated and hardcore players become bored and frustated when an expansion is aimed at casual players. What's worse, Sony still tries to lure both groups into buying the expansions with features like extra bank space, a map system, grouping and raid tools, additional equipment slots etc

What i think is necessary to keep this game going is make expansions with content for everyone, but to keep the content for hardcore and casual players really separate. Don't give people the idea that one day they'll be able to do everything that the hardcore players can do today.
Alternate routes to the EPs or PoTime or alternate means to EP/Time quality gear? Bugger that i say.

/hugs

Would raiders like shorter raids - say, 30mins to 2 hours? Less yard trash mobs that are there just to slow you down - access right to the 'meat and potatoes' and the reason you're there?

Or do you feel, as long as the battles are fun, the yard trash have a purpose and are a necessary evil? Maybe they aren't an evil at all and add to the flavour of the zone? What about an interface that's configurable - selection of target(s) in one field, and perhaps a viewable table of the mobs expected drops (which would be in rotation daily) or would that ruin the immersion?

Sorry for all the questions. And I like the fact the Chestguard of Scooby Doo is proving to be so popular around here. I took that idea to SOE and they said something about copyright. Dunno what they were on about.

lol why are you guys figuring a single piece of equipment.. the chestguard for instance..

there are many drops on a Time raid.. if it took as long some of you are saying 3/4's of my friends would still be running around in bazaar gear lol.

when in fact they arent.

its not "hey, lets go clear time and get 1 piece of loot."

QuoteWhat we've seen is that in recent years Sony is starting to dish out new expansions at an increased rate, but targetted only at particular subgroups of their player base instead.

I agree that this is a problem, it will always cause one group to be pissed off and angry until the next expansion. With their fast release of products this shouldn't be a problem if the expansion is large enough to hold over target audience until they next expansion targeted to them comes out. With expansions being extremely buggy at release and the increased rate at which people devour content, this way of releasing expansions just isnt working.

QuoteWhat i think is necessary to keep this game going is make expansions with content for everyone, but to keep the content for hardcore and casual players really separate. Don't give people the idea that one day they'll be able to do everything that the hardcore players can do today.

This is actually where i thought PoP did a great job. It provided content for every level of player type. If casual and absolutely not interested in any progression type stuff, then you got the beginning zones (not a lot but still something). If tiny bit inclined to do progression you could do PoJ trial BoT key and such and get a couple more zones. If really into progression you could try all the way for elementals and time. Each play type got something. Sure the more hardcore ones got more then others but they put more of their time unlocking and working for that content and if any of the other wanted that content they could work for it as well.

QuoteWhat's worse, Sony still tries to lure both groups into buying the expansions with features like extra bank space, a map system, grouping and raid tools, additional equipment slots etc

This is HUGE problem if they continue their attitude of expansions targeted at each group. I hated having to spend money on LoY just to get features that should have been in game originally like maps and a much bigger bank space.

What they need to do is when they are planning their next couple expansions, combine the one for the hardcore with the casual and release it as one. They won't get as much money since people aren't paying for 2 expansions but they will probably see less people leaving with bitter tastes in their mouths badmouthing them and swearing off all future SoE products like is currently happening.

QuoteThis is actually where i thought PoP did a great job. It provided content for every level of player type.

Have to disagree there Urim. PoP was a deathsentence for a lot of small casual guilds. It certainly was for me. I was still playing a paladin at that time who was level 60, with 'casual gear', couple of Thurgadin armor pieces and equivalent. People only had 4 zones available to them initially. Levelling up from 60 to 65 meant that you shut yourself out of almost all old world content since the blue con range was 55+ back then not 50+ as it is now. The best a casual guild could hope to achieve in an decent amount of time was passing the PoJ trials, at which point you had 2 more zones available, but a large part of the initial 4 then became light blue. PoP actually reduced the number of zones that people could play in instead of adding to it. I 'quit' shortly after PoPs release. Only when LoY was announced did i return to EQ, shelving my paladin in favor of my beastlord. They later reversed the blue con range and removed the flag requirements of a bunch of zones, and they did this for a reason. Casual players were becoming really frustated at the prospect of being able to xp in 2 or 3 zones only and were quitting en masse.

This is why i said earlier that locking new content that's supposedly targetted at everyone behind flags, timesinks or any other form is a bad idea. These locks are effective blocking the content from casual gamers altogether; they take far too long to overcome. Locks on zones like ST, VT, EP and beyond that i understand, you don't want a bunch of gimps interfering with the raids of hardcore guilds.

So yeah, separating the hardcore content from the casual content by locking it is ok. But Sony seems to think that its fun for casual gamers to follow in the footsteps of the hardcore gamers and unlock these zones at their own pace. It isn't, it simply takes too long to get there. Providing alternate means to them isnt the answer either in my opinion. For one thing, it has become clear in this thread that this is considered by the hardcore players as casual players infringing on their territory, unjustified as that view may be. And Sony is sending contrary signals to their player base this way. One the one hand they are saying casuals should not be able to get that quality of gear, on the other hand they are dangling that carrot in front of you. No wonder people get frustated over that. If LDoN quality gear is supposed to be the best obtainable gear for a casual player at this time (which is fine with me), then they should make it possible to obtain it with an appreciable effort comparable to the effort that hardcore players put into getting theirs, but in a reasonable enough time to be ready for the next expansion with its new challenges.

/hugs

QuoteIf LDoN quality gear is supposed to be the best obtainable gear for a casual player at this time (which is fine with me), then they should make it possible to obtain it with an appreciable effort comparable to the effort that hardcore players put into getting theirs

I think LDoN gear is obtainable with appreciable effort in same amount or faster as hardcore raiders.

Take me for instance, in the last 6 months i have obtained 6 loots from raiding on average 5 nights a week. If the casual lvl 65 players plays 2 hours a night they can get 2 LDoNs done meaning 102 points a night. Casual players playing average 5 days a week, thats 510 points a week. So 3 weeks and they can purchase a new thing from the merchants which is a little bit faster then what i obtain on average. And i think 2 hours a night for 5 nights is a bit on the small side for casual players.

6 months is prolly not enough to average out loot drops for a hardcore raider. Your guild's website states that you've only recently entered Qvic and haven't got started with the armor pharming yet. The past few months would have been slow for you as you were basically going thru the timesinks leading to the rich zones. Equipping via LDoNs is more constant over time.

5 LDoNs per week sounds pretty average to me. I want to do other things beside LDoNs or its gets repetitive. You wouldnt want to do basically the same raid day-in day-out either. My last LDoN was 3 weeks ago, i needed to take a break from it. Anyways 500 pts per week means i can currently get one piece of gear w/o augments in 3 weeks. And this is a pretty decent rate, true enough, compared to my pre-LDoN rate its a big step forward. But to fully gear up including augs takes something like 20*3000 points, or 1200 missions, or 4 years, or half of my brain cells. Im getting some upgrades through the bazaar or drops in other zones as well, but's that's slower then via LDoNs and reduces the amount of time to maybe 3 years. There'll be several new expansions in that time, with new upgrades in gear.
Sony is going to add new items to LDoN merchants, only the quality of it is currently under debate. So i still lag behind the expansions, and the lag gets larger. Players in hardcore guilds never lag behind the content, on the contrary, they usually have to wait for it like with GoD. PoP was beaten and pharmed in 1-1.5 years after its release.

If the quality of the new LDoN gear is going to be better, then the cost is probably going to be higher as well, meaning more time necessary to obtain. This is something i hope they will not do. If the current rate is acceptable, which is open for debate, they still should scale down the point cost of the old gear and make the new gear cost 1492 pts to go with the signs of the times and keep the rate the same as it was.
We have to loose the 'its better so it should take more effort to obtain' -mentality. GoD doesnt take more effort or risk then PoP for a hardcore guild because they're already geared up for it. The same should be true for casual players, but currently it isnt.

/hugs

I agree PoP was the death sentence for EQ.   It slamed the door in the face of the casual raiders, it slamed the door in the face of the smaller guilds, it is so repetative for the big guilds that many have just said screw it and left.   Having to backflag 20 times to get a force big enough to move into the next plane is crap.    They want to fix it, they need to remove the flagging process.   Yes that means that the extreme high end guilds will have alot more company in those  zones and yes that means many many raids will wipe cause they are not equiped to go dancing through time, but it will give those guilds/alliances a reason to stay together instead of getting burned out.

You know confuses me the most?

This is what confuses me:

WHY would a Casual Player/Guild even WANT to be in Plane of Earth/Plane of Fire/Plane of Water/Plane of Air?

Seriously. What do you all think is in there for you, the casual player/guild?

The biggest trash piece of crap mob that drops elemental armor pieces would more then likely simply "OWN" your small group of folks in Bazaar Gear.

Do you all think that its a candy store in Elementals / Time? Do you think you just walk up to a Uber_Mob_00123 and in your best Cartmans Voice say "Hey YOU, gimme your loot and then get your ass back in the kitchen!"??

Seriously now... what in the world do you think is in these zones for you? Planes of Power is a progressive exapnsion that REQUIRES you to LEARN encounters, UNDERSTAND the encounters and BEAT the encounters because .... wait for it.... you WILL see it again later in Planes of Power only on an even GREATER scale. Thus.... if you cannot kill Uber-Mob_0096 then you simply do not stand a chance in hell against Super_uber_mob_00958.

Thus you see mobs in the game like...

Grummus. Cant withstand the AE? Get better resists and more AE HEals.
Behemoth. Cant handle the adds? Get more force. Cant handle the AE? Get better resists and AE Healers.
PoJ Trials. Cant beat these simple mobs before they kill the prisoners? Obviously your not high enough level, your gear is sub-par or you chose the wrong group makeup.
RD in HoHB. Cant kill RD before he wipes your raid? Get more firepower.
TT in PoNB. Cant handle the script where mobs pop, TT debuffs and the gargoyles own your raid? Obviously you need to plan better.

All of these things you see on these 'semi-uber' mobs are things you WILL see later on other mobs only on a MUCH greater scale. These mobs are not only 'flag' mobs but they are also TRAINING YOUR GUILD/GROUP for later encounters. If you cant handle these now then you most certainly will not handle them when they come up later on a greater scale.

Progression..... do you see it?

Kill mob A.
Get item A.
Get enough item A and then...

You can kill mob B.
Get Item B.
Get enough item B and then....

You can kill mob C.
Get item C.
Get enough item C and then....

Do you see it?

I simply think people do not understand this concept and its a basic one. Its the BASIS of all things in Everquest.

Kill mob to get better equipment which allows you then to kill an even tougher mob to get even better equipment so you can kill an even tougher  mob to get even better equipment...

It has inflated to the point now where if you are simply not a bad ass guild who act as an elite Navy SEAL Team then you are simply out of your league.

QuoteWHY would a Casual Player/Guild even WANT to be in Plane of Earth/Plane of Fire/Plane of Water/Plane of Air?

Seriously. What do you all think is in there for you, the casual player/guild?

Casual players who enjoy tradeskills, and wish to produce items desireable to other players, are at the mercy of raiding guild bank mules selling tradeskill drops and inflated prices.

I wish I could make elemental bows for my friends and guildmates but on 1-3 hours a night i'm generally not going to make any of the open raids on my server to get flagged to the point where I can do that anytime soon. I do what I can when I can, so its not from lack of anything other than the correct chunks of time to get it done.

The Aid Grimel quest is another example. I'd much rather do that quest and craft my own upgrades than raid for upgrades. As it stands now though, I have to master 7 tradeskills and raid for that to be an option.

Cultural armor met this need at one point for casual players. I still remember how raiders complained that there was player crafted armor that was almost as good as the rewards raiders were receiving. Not even equal, just almost as good.

Sony's response was to add higher level tradeskill armors but then make the components only attainable by raiding which in my view seems counter to what they were originally trying to accomplish.

Anyway, just to stick to the point of the question, there are things that casual players would like access to elemental planes for. Some of us balk at the path we are forced to take to get those things, not necessarily the difficulty of getting the items themselves.

What would be the problem with expanding the alternate flag quest concept to all planes but Time? The ones that already exist are sufficiently challenging and time-consuming as to convey a sense of accomplishment when they are completed. I would also submit that leveling/gearing up to complete the quests prepares the casual players who do them for the encounters in the next higher tier.

I think it's because of the exposure of WoW and EQ2 people are looking at the features and content of them and are saying "Cool - wouldn't it be sweet if EQ1 was like that too."

Until recently EQ1 had no competition. Yeah, there were a few hopefuls out there - DAOC, Linage 2, CoH and FFXI. But ultimately after coming from EQ1 those titles were exciting at first but ultimately disappointing. If the hype is to be believed, people are looking at WoW and EQ2 and some of the footage and seriously believing EQ1's days are numbered. But they STILL have a sentimental attachment to EQ1. For many (most?) players EQ1 was their first mmorpg. It was a totally new experience.

Sure, they probably climbed some sort of gaming rank to get here that hinted at where they'd end up. Planescape gave them a taste or the traditional rpg. Maybe they played FF7 and FF8 and got their first taste of side quests and 'grinding' to get all those Protectra's. Then they played Quake 2 or Unreal and experienced on line gaming for the first time. Along comes EQ1 and combines both styles, and gives you a whole lot more.

For as long as I've been playing EQ1, there's been moaning about the game. But it's only been really about class balance and bugs. Just recently our attention seems to have turned to other stuff. What IS wrong with EQ1? What do I not like about it? What can be DONE to make it better? Why do I have to raid for xxx amount of hours to get an item I'd love to have? WHAT, if  any, are the alternatives?

Well, we know the answer to the raid question. Because you HAVE too, and that's just the way things are. But WHY? Isn't there a better way? Yes, of course there is. Hell if I know what it is though, but it wouldn't stop me contemplating it. One of the cool things about a mmorpg is it's ever changing content - patches, expansions, freebie zones etc. It's adaptable. And the community can have a hand in change.

So, with the awareness of serious alternatives to EQ1 Sony are more inclined to 'bend with the wind.' Don't just close your mind to suggestion when contemplating the topic. Just because it's always been this way, doesn't mean it's a perfect system.

Quote from: Ragash
What would be the problem with expanding the alternate flag quest concept to all planes but Time? The ones that already exist are sufficiently challenging and time-consuming as to convey a sense of accomplishment when they are completed. I would also submit that leveling/gearing up to complete the quests prepares the casual players who do them for the encounters in the next higher tier.

I dont see a problem with questing for all the planes.

I also do see your point on the tradeskill items being only attainble by those who wouldnt use them anyways. This I TOTALLY agree with you on. Sometimes Sony does some stupid things. Putting items in zones that those in the zone wouldnt use if they dropped by the truck load.

I think I said it before, I'd like to say it again: I don't mind in general that there are flags, keys, big bad tough mobs as roadblocks.  I just don't like that there are so many of them, especially in GoD.  In the next expansion, OoW, it was said, at the summit perhaps, that there was only going to be one locked out zone, and all these flags/keys/roadblocks would be spread out through the other zones.  Kind of like how the average player can get experience in the Tier 1 planes but the raiders are going to go take on the boss mobs much deeper in.  Let us into a zone, but prevent us from getting too deep: just like the factory key in PoI.  The casual players get some variety; the hardcore raiders get to fight the mobs that drop the good stuff and let them advance to the next one.  If the mobs are too hard, no one will go there to exp...but maybe the casual guild could stage mini-raids or the casual player could hope to get invited along on an exp group.  (I get invited to go to Tactics/Sol Ro/Fire/Earth relatively often, and of course I can't go.  I can and do go on high risk ldons, where the mobs hit just as hard as Fire or Earth from what I have been told, and I do just fine, thank you very much.  This is the discrepancy that is especially annoying.)  GoD is even worse, since there are just so many zones which are locked out.  I suppose it's like PoP initially, before they opened up certain zones to just have a level requirement, but this doesn't justify it.

Game on,

Quote from: Catrikalol why are you guys figuring a single piece of equipment.. the chestguard for instance..

there are many drops on a Time raid.. if it took as long some of you are saying 3/4's of my friends would still be running around in bazaar gear lol.

when in fact they arent.

its not "hey, lets go clear time and get 1 piece of loot."

But it is "Hey, let's have 72 people spend 40 hours trying to beat the Rathe and not get a single piece of loot!", or in the example I used earlier, have 72 people spend 90 minutes getting two pieces of loot from Fennin Ro. Or (shoot me now!) a Sol Ro raid, where people aren't flagged for the chamber.

You're right, Time is a veritable Candyland, but you're excluding the long process of getting there, which involves a tremendous number of manhours for comparatively slight rewards.

Odd, usually I can edit my posts.  Anyway, I just thought of something...any zone where someone can be 85'ed in on a raid, should be able to do in a group.  If a Fire group needs a slower, and the only one online and available is me, they should be able to take me along with them.  If someone has many flagged friends that are willing to take them along to hunt their SPF, or farm ornates, they could do that.  These items (and possibly zones) still have level requirements, you're not going to see a level 46 with an SPF.  We're not talking boss drops, just trash/minis.  Just a thought, anyway...do the flagged people like Kash think that this would be too unbalancing?

Game on,

Quote from: Coprolith6 months is prolly not enough to average out loot drops for a hardcore raider. Your guild's website states that you've only recently entered Qvic and haven't got started with the armor pharming yet. The past few months would have been slow for you as you were basically going thru the timesinks leading to the rich zones. Equipping via LDoNs is more constant over time.

Actually, depending on your stage of progression, six drops in six months can be fairly representative (particularly in the EPs). There are certain spikes in drop rates as you reduce a particularly lucrative area to farm status (VT, Time), but generally you spend more time unlocking an area and learning the encounters than you do actually farming them, fo rthe simple reason that, unless you're in a cutting edge guild, there are more tantalizing challenges awaiting you once you've trivialized one area or encounter.

Quote
5 LDoNs per week sounds pretty average to me. I want to do other things beside LDoNs or its gets repetitive. You wouldnt want to do basically the same raid day-in day-out either. My last LDoN was 3 weeks ago, i needed to take a break from it. Anyways 500 pts per week means i can currently get one piece of gear w/o augments in 3 weeks. And this is a pretty decent rate, true enough, compared to my pre-LDoN rate its a big step forward. But to fully gear up including augs takes something like 20*3000 points, or 1200 missions, or 4 years, or half of my brain cells. Im getting some upgrades through the bazaar or drops in other zones as well, but's that's slower then via LDoNs and reduces the amount of time to maybe 3 years. There'll be several new expansions in that time, with new upgrades in gear.

This is a matter of the amount of time you're willing to put into the game. Honestly, if you only want to do 5 LDoN runs per week, that's your choice, and a perfectly valid one. However, you shouldn't expect to progress anywhere near as quickly as someone who's spending five nights a week raiding for four to six hours a night. If you put in the same amound of time as a raider, you can actually gear yourself up more quickly than said raider, if they go through the whole process of flagging, learning encounters, finishing the progression, and eventually farming. Of course, then you're probably a hard core player yourself, even if you don't raid ;) I just don't see the problem with having rewards that are commensurate with the time you sink into attaining them.

Quote
Sony is going to add new items to LDoN merchants, only the quality of it is currently under debate. So i still lag behind the expansions, and the lag gets larger. Players in hardcore guilds never lag behind the content, on the contrary, they usually have to wait for it like with GoD. PoP was beaten and pharmed in 1-1.5 years after its release.

Well, players in the very top high end guilds don't lag behind the progression. In the discussion so far, we've essentially labelled EP-flagged guilds as hard core. There are a number of guilds on my server that can farm all four elemental planes, but don't have Time access yet, let alone high end GoD progression. Even hard core players often lag behind content.

Quote
If the quality of the new LDoN gear is going to be better, then the cost is probably going to be higher as well, meaning more time necessary to obtain. This is something i hope they will not do. If the current rate is acceptable, which is open for debate, they still should scale down the point cost of the old gear and make the new gear cost 1492 pts to go with the signs of the times and keep the rate the same as it was.
We have to loose the 'its better so it should take more effort to obtain' -mentality. GoD doesnt take more effort or risk then PoP for a hardcore guild because they're already geared up for it. The same should be true for casual players, but currently it isnt.

You still seem to be equating hard core guilds with the end game guilds. GoD does take more effort and present more of a risk to many guilds because though they might be hard core, raiding five times a week, they still don't have the best gear from PoP. I'd be willing to bet that there are more guilds like this than those that have reduced Time to farm status. I know on my server there are four guilds that cna farm time, and twice that number still looking to move from the EPs to Time.

Quote from: Catrika
Hmm.. so what you are saying is that some classes have it easier then others?..

I see no reason why such and such class should have access to his LDoN gear easier then any other such and such class

and yes i know its hecka easy to do an everfrost adventure on hard mostly..

all instances should be completely random in what dungeon you get nomatter where.. that would take care of that would it not?

and as far as the time thing goes.. lol.. once more.. yes it is that fraggin easy..

Umm.. join uberguild 101.. Raid number qualify into 4 zones.. wham bam thankya mam.. you can now enter PoTime.
Granted you wont be able to enter elementals by yourself.. but I wasn't talking about them now was I?

Eh, it's not that much harder to unlock Guk than it is to unlock the other dungeons. It's certaintly easier to unlock Guk than Time! I've done it with an unguilded monk, and it's much, much easier as a Beastlord (currently a third of the way there). It's not like you're wasting your effort at other camps either, all the points you earn can eventually go to your shiny new mucus drenched armor (personally, I'm more pissed about that than the armor's location. Warriors get Royal Attendant gear and we get snot covered tissue paper? How do I get outta this chickenshit outfit?!)

That said, I really liked the idea earlier in the thread about itemizing the merchants based on armor slot rather than armor material. Unfortunately, that's much too rational of an idea for SOE to ever implement :P

It's really not that easy to get into Time, provided that you actually stick with a guild and earn your way in rather than simply riding someone else's coattails. As I mentioned earlier, there are four guilds on my server that can currently farm time. Twice that many are still working on their Time flags. If it were as simple as "grab an invite from your conveniently recruiting local uberguild, kill four mobs, and loot like a New Yorker after a Knicks title", then casual players could also get into time quite trivially. Obviously, this isn't exactly the case.

QuoteThis is a matter of the amount of time you're willing to put into the game. Honestly, if you only want to do 5 LDoN runs per week, that's your choice, and a perfectly valid one. However, you shouldn't expect to progress anywhere near as quickly as someone who's spending five nights a week raiding for four to six hours a night. If you put in the same amound of time as a raider, you can actually gear yourself up more quickly than said raider, if they go through the whole process of flagging, learning encounters, finishing the progression, and eventually farming. Of course, then you're probably a hard core player yourself, even if you don't raid  I just don't see the problem with having rewards that are commensurate with the time you sink into attaining them.

As has been mentioned before though, its not a straight time=reward equation in Everquest currently.

The reward a raider can expect to receive for his or her 40hours of weekly game play isn't the same as the reward a casual player can expect to receive in 40 hours of LDoN or lower tier raids (whether that 40 hours is done in 2 weeks or 10). So its more correct to say that currently EQ is geared around time per play session = reward. And as long as progression is tied to the current endurance marathons that raids require it is a glass ceiling casual (or time challenged serious) players can't progress beyond.

We don't want easy content, we want content that is challenging but doesn't require 6 hour sessions to progress beyond.

QuoteI just don't see the problem with having rewards that are commensurate with the time you sink into attaining them.

You just don't get it. The difference in reward is already in the quality of the loot, it should not be in the rate at which you get loot as well. Its this double punishment that causes casual players to lag so far behind.
Its all very easy to say that a casual player should just spent more time doing LDoNs when you're not a casual player yourself. Imagine having to do the same raid day in day out for years in a row.
What's the alternative? Hope to find a group to camp that item that you can use, hope the camp isn't taken yet, hope that rare mob will spawn in the few hours available to you, hope that it drops that rare item and hope you actually win that item. Rinse and repeat until you get it. Why does having to gear up have to be such an incredible repetitive exercise for a casual player? Why do i have to spent to much time on it when there are lots of things to do that are a lot more fun? But im more or less forced to do it, otherwise im simply not geared up enough to explore new content.
If the current rate of progress is acceptable for a casual player, then the new content should be designed with that rate of progress in mind. Either that, or up the progress rate so casual players stay in synch with the new content.

QuoteYou still seem to be equating hard core guilds with the end game guilds. GoD does take more effort and present more of a risk to many guilds because though they might be hard core, raiding five times a week, they still don't have the best gear from PoP. I'd be willing to bet that there are more guilds like this than those that have reduced Time to farm status. I know on my server there are four guilds that cna farm time, and twice that number still looking to move from the EPs to Time.

Dang straight i do. This is exactly what this thread is about isnt it? Sony is focusing so much on the end game that they've completely lost sight of everyone else who are lagging behind that. Carrot on a stick. You're expected to just follow in the footsteps of the endgame guilds, so they don't have to make new content for those that lag behind it. This is happening over the whole spectrum, from the most casual of the casual players to the hardcore player just below the end game

/hugs

Quote from: CoprolithYou're expected to just follow in the footsteps of the endgame guilds, so they don't have to make new content for those that lag behind it. This is happening over the whole spectrum, from the most casual of the casual players to the hardcore player just below the end game

This is a good point. I've seen people mention, or allude to saying 'What's the fuss, in x amount of time you too can be raiding the content we used to, and have access to gear we no longer use'

Well, for one, maybe I don't WANT to have to raid to get the same quality stuff you get, and for another, maybe I don't WANT to wait? I'd like a viable alternative to having to join a raiding guild, yet am happy to still be challenged as much as a raider is. And no, that doesn't mean all that backflagging and flagging shit you have to put up with. All that crap is pure b*ll*cks - the fact that you guys have the patience for such banal nonsense is awesome.

Don't think that just because raid forces require large numbers, a similarly dedicated one or two group party are never equally challenged when tackling a big mob. If I died in a one group situation, we're in the shit. If I died on a 70 man raid, big deal. Of course, as a Bst I wouldn't be in the CH chain or MA but you get the point.

Sony likes Time Sinks very much.

Why? Because they dangle the carrot (loot)  in front of you and they want you to follow the carrot (loot).

Follow the carrot = longer paying subscriptions.

Sony understands that given time the vast majority of people *will* eventually get flagged for Elementals. This is a fact. It is true. Hell if given infinity 12 monkeys on typewriters will eventually chrun out Shakespere's Plays in order with no spelling or grammar errors.

They WANT the casual player to take time... lots of it... to 'progress' because this means a longer paying subscriber.

If everyone could just 'win the game' then you will bore quickly and quit.

The KEY that Sony needs to come up with is "How long does it take for Casual Players to become disenchanted before they quit."

Once Sony can figure that out they will use it to the fullest. They will make sure you play to the last minute to obtain that 'thing' (thing = whatever).

Right now the balance has prehaps tipped a little too far in to the "bordeom/disenchantment" side of things and subscriptions are falling off. So they are now looking things over to see what they can fix to make things not "harder" or "easier" but perhaps "less time consuming".

The KEY here is "time". You MUST invest time in this game. It is not Quake, Quake2, Quake3, Doom, Doom2 and a ton of other instant gratification games. This is a game of emersion, questing, roleplaying(ha ha), building friendship, guilds, skill and character building. This is NOT a game for the short sighted, impatient or instant gratification.

The KEY is balance. Balance the nees of the casual while not letting the hard cores walk all over them.

The answer is this: "There is no real answer to this problem".

The picture has been painted. All they can do now is do a little touchup and perhaps add to the border, but the game is what the game is and this my friend is simply how it will be. Set your goals and be realistic based on your dedication and investment in the game.

PEACE :)

QuoteFollow the carrot = longer paying subscriptions.

Yep. i even went as far as getting a 2nd account and later a 3rd account just to follow that carrot, cuz despite all the probs, the game is still fun. I did get too bored to continue for awhile, but the additional accounts allowed me to explore new things.

QuoteThe KEY that Sony needs to come up with is "How long does it take for Casual Players to become disenchanted before they quit."

Once Sony can figure that out they will use it to the fullest. They will make sure you play to the last minute to obtain that 'thing' (thing = whatever).

Yeah they're not as stupid as you might think. Its a safe bet to assume they are monitoring their subscriptions closely. The PoP example comes to mind again. They knew people weren't happy with the lack of zones to hunt in at 61+, but they didnt actually do anything about it until the novelty of PoP wore off and they started losing customers. But they do slip up sometimes. High end raiders have always been plagued by unfinished scripts/zones and assorted bugs. Suddenly they loose a whole bunch of them to WoW/CoH and now they're scrambling to fix things.
They are milking you for every penny. Raid tools in an expansion aimed at casual players, tribute effects in an expansion aimed at hardcore players (thats the carrot again, "look Mr. Casual, aren't those focus effects nice? = Don't you wish you had gear with those effects?")

/hugs

BTW: fun thread!

I still think Afterlife and FoH where no big loss. After all this race to finish content is not really what SoE wants to promote.

Really insightful thread here!

I have been playing EQ steadily for just over a year now.
When I started, it was a friend and myself having fun, the 2 of us having fun while we grew "bigger".
I started with a warrior, and then switched to a beastlord, along with some other characters. The warrior, paladin and beastlord became my "mains".
My friend became ill, and did not come online for several months. I joined a small, friendly guild at this stage.
Getiing a full group together was not a usual occurence with this guild, because of the level spread. Thankfully, I could solo with my beastlord, and he leveled up quicker.
This guild had mostly a membership of "old-timers" that started get burned out at about the same time. When it got to the stage when less then 6 members would be on, i decided to move on. I joined another guild, about 80 members (mains).

Up to about level 45, spending time solo, or with a full or small group is okay. There is progress with leveling, making enough plat to buy bazaar gear, and generally having fun with EQ.
I understood when I started EQ that EQ was designed for grouping. Okay, I did not mind finding pickup groups, or having an evening as a duo with a friend, or stranger.

Now, at 56, I find several aspects have changed:
1] Bazaar gear for a 56 beastlord is expensive.
2] Player made gear is not of the same standard is pre-50. Seems tradeskills got left behind, neglected by SOE in the post-50 expansions.
3] The accent has shifted from the group to a raid.
4] The quality of the loot that drops from a raid that we as a guild can manage, is pretty sad, especially for the melee classes.

When my guild plans a raid, this has to be done with a week, sometimes 2 weeks notice. If nearly all that are in the level range turn up, we can at the most fill 4 groups. We are now at Tier 1, which took weeks and weeks of work. Twice we had to dump a Trak raid, because he had just been killed. On one occassion, a group, yes just a group, of level 65's got in while we were forming up, and went for Trak. (They wiped, heheh)
Most of our raids are for epics. Most other content is just beyond us.

I have tried to follow the LDoN route. On Innoruuk, I will be lucky to get a group for the night. The LFG tool will show that not many folks are LFG for planes, LDoN etc. I will have a better chance after 11pm EST for a group, which is just too late for me. If I try every night, I will be lucky to get 3 groups for the week.
Even with LDoN points, I will have to spend months to afford just one item that will suit a level 56 beastlord. The view ahead is not rosy and sunny, but rather gloomy.


One can see that in my guild, many folk have stagnated between 50 and 55. Most have switched to playing lower level characters to get away from the constant grind.
Most of our members are older folk, 30 to 50. Because of work, family, and other issues, spending more than 2 hours a night is not normal. There are actually less people on over the weekends than during the week.

I have participated as a guest in some large raids. Most times I feel embarassed, as my gear and stats are way below the standard of the other folk. It is not a good feeling to have a healer inspect me to see why they have to spend a lot of mana healing me.

As the reader no doubt has noticed, I am not a happy camper, as far as EQ goes. I will be trying out other games when they come out. I plan to keep my account with EQ open, with the hope that some really major changes/revamping happen

"May the sky keep from falling on your head." - Asterix

Maybe I a totally misunderstanding you Coprolith. You say you only want to do 5 LDoNs a week. Thats fine thats your option. Thats 1 hour max a day for 5 days leaving you time to do other stuff. Then you say you want to get your gear at the same rate as a raider that raids maybe 5 hours a day for 5-6 days a week? Thats how I read what you said.

Doing LDoNs may be boring however you have 5 different styles to choose from. An EP flagged raiding guild has 4 and a Time guild has 1. Who is doing the more repepitive stuff. Also the raiders need to compete with other for the mobs, LDoN players do not.

With prep time and finishing up doing an LDoN takes more like 1.5-2 hours (depending how smoothly the mission went). That's all the playtime i have during weekday evenings. During the weekend i could do 4 or 5 more, if and when i have nothing better to do. That's a max of 10 missions a week, but since i easily spent half my time doing other stuff, i average out at 5.
5 different styles to choose from? yeah right, the main difference in the styles is graphics. The mobs are all the same. They hit the same, they have the same amount of hitpoints, each theme has a particular mob that has more hps then the other but hits slower (like the mummies in Mistmoore or the wolves in Rujark). Takish has some druid mobs instead of shamans like in Miraguls and Rujark. Wow, some difference. All maps are build up out of the same building blocks. Once you get the hang of it, all missions are the same ad infinitum.
In contrast, raiders have to learn each new mob, and adjust their tactics. The fun is in the learning experience, and the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you finally beat him. So to answer your question "who is doing the more repetitive stuff?": the casual players are, by a multitude.

QuoteThen you say you want to get your gear at the same rate as a raider that raids maybe 5 hours a day for 5-6 days a week?

No, i've been saying i want to be ready to explore new content without being forced into spending more time on upgrading gear and xp grinding then i have. Whether that's because the new content is balanced to my current situation or because my progress rate is upped makes no difference to me. I don't want that carrot dangling in front of my face

/hugs

Ok I understand you want to be able to explore new content without having to upgrade. Lets say they put in content thats right at your level. Then the player that only plays 1 day a week will say the same. I want new content without having to upgrade. He will be way behind you in gear. And so on for all players that play at different levels. This is a practical impossibility for soe to do I would think. Be great if they can but I can't see any way its doable.

QuoteOk I understand you want to be able to explore new content without having to upgrade

No, you understand wrong, I don't mind working to improve myself to the point where i can do the new content, but the work shouldnt be such a long boring process.

QuoteThen the player that only plays 1 day a week will say the same. I want new content without having to upgrade. He will be way behind you in gear. And so on for all players that play at different levels.

Oh there's a whole spectrum of 'casuality', no doubt about it, and catering to everyone is impossible. But the player that plays only one day a week will still have plenty of unexplored content open for him, at the right level. It takes a lot longer to get that 'been there, done that'-feeling when you play 1 night a week. There's plenty of content for new players, and you might say that someone who plays 1 night a week stays new to the game for a very long time. I've been playing for almost 5 years however, at an average of about 10 hours per week i'd guess. It took a long time for the boredom to set in, as i've mentioned before the first time it happened was shortly after therelease of PoP. In the beginning i could explore new classes, and take them to places where i hadn't been before. That's not true anymore.
Now i don't know what the average playtime per week is for a casual player, or what the average boredom threshold is for that matter, but i can't imagine im the only one in this situation. The fact is, im hardly any further then someone who's been playing for 2 years at 10h/week, because we both hit a ceiling. But I've seen a lot more then the 2 year player.

I never said there was an easy solution. I don't know the answer. But i do think that the game is on the wrong track because of Sony's mentality, which they in turn got from paying too much attention to a small percentage of the playerbase, i.e. the hardcore raiders.

/hugs

I have a couple of questions:

When you high end raiders say it is such a time sink, do you mean the actual fighting or the raid set-up?  I ask since with my raid experience, the actual set-up takes longer then actual fighting almost everytime.  So when you say 6hrs of raiding, how much of that would you say is actual fighting?

What is your idea of enough game time to actually warrant that an individual get some high end gear?  If I was to say partake in a solo quest that took 3-5hrs per night, 6 nights a week, for 3 weeks would that be enough to get an item like say Savage Platinum Fists?  That is 54-90hrs of solo gaming to get an item that it seems is not very difficult for today's raiding guilds, but would be a huge accomplishment to an individual.

As far as raid time spent in PoP content, the set up is the least of our worries.  Once a guild gets to that level, you pretty much get that done like you breath.  Raiding in PoP, usually you are fighting a clock.  Many of the scripts are timed events.  All the rings in Earth are timed, RZ is a time event, and so on.  VT is just a hard long boring plow. (If you can't CoH)  There is no time limit in VT, but omg it's sooo boring.  At first the 10 pulls were exciting, but even those got trivial pretty quick.  

I guess I understand everyone's desire to see stuff they haven't seen before.  That's one of the major reasons I joined a raiding guild.  I think maybe SoE was on the right track with GoD actually.  If you are a casual player, and you are able to deck yourself out in LDON gear, where do you go after that?  GoD.  Since much of that content is one groupable, it gives the casual player a progression to shoot for, the same way raiders progress.  Not quite the same content, or the same mobs, or the same gear, but still the same idea.  

I definately think it's not fair for the 10 hour/week player to ask for access to the same content as the 40 hour/week player.  Where would the incentive for the 40 hour/week?  

As far as tradeskill items from the Elementals, SoE has been doing all they can to get cash out of the system.  The gear that can be made from Elemental tradeskills is some of the best droppable gear in the game.  The last thing SoE would want is that kind of stuff selling in the bazaar for 2k.  It's supposed to be hard and rare.  That's the whole idea.  

The bottom line for me here is, there is plenty of content for every kind of player.  The key to it all, is to understand what kind of player you are, and understand you will be limited if you restrict yourself.  We all make choices.  If someone chooses to play 10 hours/week, you are also choosing to limit yourself in your progression in the game.  And that's cool.  Who cares?  As long as we accept who we are, then it shouldn't matter.

Quote from: Cyphen WilderWhen you high end raiders say it is such a time sink, do you mean the actual fighting or the raid set-up?  I ask since with my raid experience, the actual set-up takes longer then actual fighting almost everytime.  So when you say 6hrs of raiding, how much of that would you say is actual fighting?

Raid set up times vary a lot depending on target. For the first raid called it tends to take 30 mins for people to assemble and raid buff. After that, for any additional target in the same zone set up time may be 5-15mins on a good day and 30 mins on a bad day. Loot distribution tends to take 10-15 mins.

Now some events are scripted and you have to kill X number of trash mobs to get named to trigger. Such as Fen Ro or PoEa rings. So they have buil in delays. Takes about 2 hours for Fen Ro and 1 hours for PoEa rings. Xegony takes 1 to 2 hours set up time summoning corpses forming correct groups etc but the actual fight takes less then an hour if things go well. Coirnav takes 15 mins win or loose and also has 1 to 2 hours set up time. Rathe takes 1 to 2 hours set up time and 2 to 4 hours to kill depending on how good your strat is.

Quote from: Cyphen WilderWhat is your idea of enough game time to actually warrant that an individual get some high end gear?  If I was to say partake in a solo quest that took 3-5hrs per night, 6 nights a week, for 3 weeks would that be enough to get an item like say Savage Platinum Fists?  That is 54-90hrs of solo gaming to get an item that it seems is not very difficult for today's raiding guilds, but would be a huge accomplishment to an individual.

That would fit xaoshaen's estimate of 72 man hours for 1 drop.

--------------------
With regard to what Birdienumnum said, PoP has very bad itemization IMHO and I beleive that was done on purpose.  The XP is good but thats all you get. It was SoE way of balancing xp vs loot. Due to this fact, when I ran raids for a family guild I virtualy ignored PoP. I spend a lot of time researching zones all over norrath to find raids that were doable by a family guild and had loot worth going after. There is one key point here. Research. There is a lot of content out there but few really know it all. This is an investment in time that is often overlooked.

When I starting thinking of leaving my family guild for a raiding guild I notice one thing. I had better equipment than some of those so called raiders. It makes you wonder, maybe these raiders aren't so uber after all.

Going back to the point of grouping. Grouping is important in EQ. It opens up a lot of opportunity but people dislike pick up groups because you never know who you might get. I often wonder why people complain so much about pick up groups and don't try to build a solid group of friends to group with regularly. Once you have a small group of friends you can rely on the possibilities increase dramaticaly. This is one reason people end up multi boxing. Why rely on other random unrelyable people when you can rely on your own army of bots.

QuoteI definately think it's not fair for the 10 hour/week player to ask for access to the same content as the 40 hour/week player. Where would the incentive for the 40 hour/week?

This isn't what I, and the people I play with want though. We don't want the same things as raiders on a smaller time investment. We want comparable rewards for a comparable investment of time.

For instance, if it took a 56 person raid 3 hours to kill a flag mob thats 168 hours of collective playtime. What's wrong with asking for a quest doable by a single group that takes 30-40 hours of time per person cumulatively (totalling 180-240 hours of collective playtime) for that same flag? Make it doable in 2-4 hour chunks and it becomes possible for casual players to progress at their own pace and not feel like they've run into a brick wall preventing progress. My example even adjusts for less difficult encounters by building in more time for the casuals although there is a large degree of subjectivity in the term "difficult encounter".

LDoN was a step in the right direction but it needs some tuning, just like raid level encounters usually need some tuning after the high end guilds take a few shots at those encounters.

We're not asking for easier progression, we're asking for a different kind of progression. One that's been partially addressed in some ways but still needs work.

Quote from: Coprolith

Quote from: XaoshaenI just don't see the problem with having rewards that are commensurate with the time you sink into attaining them.

You just don't get it. The difference in reward is already in the quality of the loot, it should not be in the rate at which you get loot as well. Its this double punishment that causes casual players to lag so far behind.
Its all very easy to say that a casual player should just spent more time doing LDoNs when you're not a casual player yourself. Imagine having to do the same raid day in day out for years in a row.

Well, as I explained before, I do find myself in the position of being a casual gamer with my Beastlord. The funny thing is, he earns upgrades much more frequently than my main does. You're not even restricted to getting lesser rewards, you're getting the same rewards that hard core players got, you're just getting them further into the course of the game, as a result of the play time disparity.

If you're establishing five LDoNs a week as a standard for a casual player, than yeah, I've done the same raid, day in, day out, for an equivalent amount of time.

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What's the alternative? Hope to find a group to camp that item that you can use, hope the camp isn't taken yet, hope that rare mob will spawn in the few hours available to you, hope that it drops that rare item and hope you actually win that item. Rinse and repeat until you get it. Why does having to gear up have to be such an incredible repetitive exercise for a casual player?

It's not that different for the average raider, really. Hope that your guild decides to raid the mob that drops what you want, hope no other guild is already there, hope that nobody beats you to it, hope that it drops that rare item, and hope that you actually win that item. Rinse and repeat until you get it.

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Why do i have to spent to much time on it when there are lots of things to do that are a lot more fun? But im more or less forced to do it, otherwise im simply not geared up enough to explore new content.

The exact same thing applies to hard core players, except that they spend more time getting geared up to explore new content.

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If the current rate of progress is acceptable for a casual player, then the new content should be designed with that rate of progress in mind. Either that, or up the progress rate so casual players stay in synch with the new content.

I'm not sure why this is true. If they design the new content around the progression rate of the casual gamer, then it will be overrun by the high end players in short order, which leads to player stagnation (witness the situation in original EQ prior to the Kunark release).

Quote from: Coprolith

Quote from: XaoshaenYou still seem to be equating hard core guilds with the end game guilds. GoD does take more effort and present more of a risk to many guilds because though they might be hard core, raiding five times a week, they still don't have the best gear from PoP. I'd be willing to bet that there are more guilds like this than those that have reduced Time to farm status. I know on my server there are four guilds that cna farm time, and twice that number still looking to move from the EPs to Time.

Dang straight i do. This is exactly what this thread is about isnt it? Sony is focusing so much on the end game that they've completely lost sight of everyone else who are lagging behind that. Carrot on a stick. You're expected to just follow in the footsteps of the endgame guilds, so they don't have to make new content for those that lag behind it. This is happening over the whole spectrum, from the most casual of the casual players to the hardcore player just below the end game

No, this thread is, or at least has become, about the progression of casual gamers versus those of hardcore gamers.

So, you're asking for zones targetted at casual gamers, that the uberguilds have no incentive to visit? They already tried this once and found out exactly what would happen if you opened an expansion and nobody came. It turns out that most casual gamers would rather follow in the footsteps of the hardcore players than spend time in content designed for them.

There's going to be a fundamental disconnect in any discussion about this, because you perceive a problem where others perceive an opportunity. For many people in my situation (hard core, but not cutting edge), there's no perceived need for content targetted specifically at us. I view the content that's currently out of reach as a challenge and a goal to shoot for. I couldn't care less whether someone else has already seen it. It's still a new experience for me, to be savored for what it is. Other people having been there doesn't lessen the experience for me.

For someone in my position, Sony's end-game fixation is a good thing. It means that there will always be content out there for me to strive for, to find, and to conquer. I won't find myself in the position that many of us discovered ourselves in pre-Kunark, where I'd been everywhere and done everything.

You seem to be asking for game content tailored specifically for you. If it's a bit too hard for you at the moment, then you'll wind up just following in someone else's footsteps. Of course, as soon as you've been through it a few times, gotten the upgrades and the like necessary to trivialize it, then you'll need more new content, tailored specifically for where you're at now. It's a nice idea, but just not economically viable, particularly given the many tiers of players that Sony has to cater to.

Quote from: AneyaGoing back to the point of grouping. Grouping is important in EQ. It opens up a lot of opportunity but people dislike pick up groups because you never know who you might get. I often wonder why people complain so much about pick up groups and don't try to build a solid group of friends to group with regularly. Once you have a small group of friends you can rely on the possibilities increase dramaticaly. This is one reason people end up multi boxing. Why rely on other random unrelyable people when you can rely on your own army of bots.

This is one area where I think that casual players have it particularly rough, but I don't see any realistic way to address the issue. I have a number of friends who play fairly casually, and not only are their play times limited, but they tend to be somewhat erratic. When you can't count on your friends to be able to play on a daily basis, it makes it extremely difficult to group with them regularly, which does tend to leave you at the mercy of the pickup group from hell.

I eventually started to become much more militant about who I would group with. Over the course of a couple of months, I compiled a list of fifty odd names of people who I would not, under any circumstances, group with again, and a list twice that long of people I would tolerate if the rest fo the group could pick up their slack. On the one hand, it's kind of a cold thing to join a group, see a List member and tell the leader that you can't stay. On the other hand, I don't have to worry about those 1.5 to 2 hour LDoN runs that Cop mentioned, and my frustration level (not to mention my loss rate on LDoNs... 91-1 on my BL so far) has plummetted through the floor. It's not a decision that everyone, particularly people who are more socially oriented than I, chooses to make, and it's perfectly legitimate to decide that you don't want to be the hardnosed (from another perspective: asshole) type. In the latter case, you're pretty much stuck with random pickup groups, which really do suck on a fairly regular basis. I wish I had any kind of prospective solution, but the heart of the matter really depends upon other players, not on the game.

Hmmm... Vote Xao! Raising the collective IQ of EQ players one sterilization at a time!

Maybe not.  :P

QuoteWell, as I explained before, I do find myself in the position of being a casual gamer with my Beastlord. The funny thing is, he earns upgrades much more frequently than my main does. You're not even restricted to getting lesser rewards, you're getting the same rewards that hard core players got, you're just getting them further into the course of the game, as a result of the play time disparity

If you're getting more upgrades on your BL then you obviously havent hit your ceiling yet. Im at the point where every upgrade adds only one or two percent to my power, and its taking a month to get that. That's getting me absolutely nowhere. I had to start 2boxing and later 3boxing to keep getting a sense of accomplishment

QuoteThe exact same thing applies to hard core players, except that they spend more time getting geared up to explore new content

First of all they have that time. A casual player does not, even if he does nothing but hunt specifically for gear. This is why the gap between casual players and hardcore players keeps getting larger, at an increasing rate. The bigger the gap becomes, the harder it is to provide new content suited to everyone. Its probably gone too far already, but to keep in check, the progress rate of casual gamers should be synched to the new content.
Secondly, this statement is simply not true. The only reason i've been able to explore new content in the past year is because i've added a 3rd box. The power upgrade from gear and AAs has been laughable and it wouldnt have allowed me to do anything new.
Thirdly, if it was just a simple matter of time spent, then new players joining a high end guild don't deserve their upgrades either do they. 5 years at 10h/week beats 1y at 40h/week by that reasoning. But its not that simple of course. The simple fact is, casual players will hit a ceiling after a while, while hardcore players don't.

QuoteI'm not sure why this is true. If they design the new content around the progression rate of the casual gamer, then it will be overrun by the high end players in short order

My bad, i thought it would have been clear from my previous posts but apparently it isnt. The open content should be designed at the progression rate of the casual gamer. High end players should get their own content. The gap between these two has become so large that they're effectively playing a different game.

QuoteNo, this thread is, or at least has become, about the progression of casual gamers versus those of hardcore gamers

Yes, well, considering the number of posts on that topic you're right, but i've never lost sight of the original topic. Its the attitude of a few people who, ignoring everything said so far, feel that casual players should under no circumstances, even if it takes years, be allowed to get where they are now that keeps bringing the discussion back to this.

QuoteThey already tried this once and found out exactly what would happen if you opened an expansion and nobody came.

And which expansion would that be? LoY? I came back to the game because of LoY. Until the release of LDoN, LoY was highly populated, by the very people it was targetted at. Dulak probably still is the most popular L50-55 zone in the game. In contrast, PoP lured in a lot of people who where then deeply disappointed when they found out they had just cut themselves off of almost all old world content and had no way to progress in PoP itself.

QuoteIt turns out that most casual gamers would rather follow in the footsteps of the hardcore players than spend time in content designed for them.

Really? I'd like to see a poll on that, and not an anonymous poll.

QuoteFor many people in my situation (hard core, but not cutting edge), there's no perceived need for content targetted specifically at us.

Except there aren't many people in your position. There are far more casual players then hardcore players. Hardcore players just shout louder.

QuoteFor someone in my position, Sony's end-game fixation is a good thing.

See above. You're looking at this only from your own situation. For the majority of people, the end-game fixation is not a good thing. Heck, if it wasn't then it wouldnt be a fixation.

QuoteYou seem to be asking for game content tailored specifically for you. If it's a bit too hard for you at the moment, then you'll wind up just following in someone else's footsteps. Of course, as soon as you've been through it a few times, gotten the upgrades and the like necessary to trivialize it, then you'll need more new content, tailored specifically for where you're at now.

Yes i am. Why shouldnt I? All the hardcore players do. The difference is, they get what they ask for, casual gamers don't. Quarm defeated? "We need new content now!"

Oh and if anyone dares reply to that last statement with "but casual gamers have enough content already" I am going to go mental on their ass because we've been over that twice already.

/hugs

Quote from: Xaoshaen
So, you're asking for zones targetted at casual gamers, that the uberguilds have no incentive to visit? They already tried this once and found out exactly what would happen if you opened an expansion and nobody came. It turns out that most casual gamers would rather follow in the footsteps of the hardcore players than spend time in content designed for them.

hmm.. exactly which expansion would that be? cause I have been in EQ since it came out, and i've not seen this.

I know yer surely not talking about LoY.. seeing as how the zone was a pain in the behind to get to..  besides the fact that XP stinks compared to even Tier 1 PoP zones.

If it is.. I dont call that following in the footsteps of hardcore players.. I call that common sense.

Ok, lets just all take a deep breath.... breathe in..... breathe out...

There has not yet been a flame, but its 'almost' there.

Lets keep it constructive everyone (including myself).

The biggest thing wrong with EQ isn't the lack of new content or loot. Its that the game is no longer fun. It needs something to bring the fun back. I'm not sure this is possible at this point though. I quit a few weeks ago out of sheer boredom. I never really did LDoN wasn't interested. Only thing that kept me playing was raiding and the friends I had.  I finally decided that I was playing a game, yes folks never forget this is a game something we play for entertainment, that wasn't fun was pointless playing. So I went and found something else that was fun.

Xao you seem to be of the opinion that a casual player will eventually get the same upgrades as a hardcore player given enough time.  However, this will only be the case if SOE ups the level limits many more times.  

As it stands, I will never ever get into the Elemental Planes, no matter how much time I put in, because I am not interested in being part of a serious raiding guild.  It just is not fun for me, and I believe I speak for many EQ players when I say that.

Without the upgrades from those planes and above, I doubt I will be able to progress much in GoD, even if I someday fully gear myself in LDoN (1k+ wins anyone?).  Remember my guild mates, all also non-raiders, will also have to put in the same thousands of hours to get the LDoN gear in order to have a shot at GoD.  We have about one group out of our 60 members that have this level of gear and we still experience trouble with the sewers.

All of the true upgrades at this point are based on not just hardcore playing, but hardcore RAIDING.  There are members of my guild that are on every single day for hours and hours - they play as much as any hardcore player, but they will never have the equipment of a raiding guild.

LDoN was a good idea in my opinion, but the variety is just not there, the depth is not there, and the length of time required is just screwy.

Some background first:
This thread has become a discussion about  casual versus raiding people, basically meaning
 - casual = 10 h/week - unguilded (mostly soloing, LDoNing, pickup groups)
 - hardcore - 40+ h/week - time raiding guild.

My point of view is somewhat in the middle:
 - "familial" - 25 h/week - familial guild (ie same as casual some evenings, with 2/3 groups raids 2/3 days per week when we feel like doing it)

I think many people play in the same setting, but, because of the necessity of mass raid that happens now, we've reached the same ceiling as existed before Kunark: nothing new to do together.

The only "new" accessible content for us has been group sized events like LDoN and GoD trials. This is causing the end of our guild, as people either get bored and leave or join a huge raiding guild.

This bi-polarity of EQ now (you can see discussions like this one in many forums) is killing EQ, whith people failing to understand each other as they play two different games.

The ideas seems to be (whoever is them/us). :
  - if SOE spends time helping them, we will have less things for us. We 're not loved enough.

  - we spent that many hours doing boring stuff , we've earned our upgrade. they don't understand that.

I think I understand what everyone exposed there, but regret there is no "middle ground" anymore - more 2/3 group content with correct rewards so people don't feel either "soloing casual" or "hard core raiding uber"

With that kind of setting, it would be easy for a "casual" gamer to try familial raiding for a change - no strings attached, and for a burned out hardcore to relax for some time, doing things he likes without the same stress.

It would even be possible for the 2 kind of people to actually meet in game and play together.

My thoughts:
  - Give alternate flagging ways for all PoP zones (limiting that to EP, as there should be a "hardcore" only zone per extension) doable by a 12-18 persons raid. Lets says it requires 4 such sub-flags to have the equivalent flag.
 - Do the same thing for GoD

This would have the added advantage to make "backflagging" easier for guilds. Lets say you have 6 new people you need to flag - you just have to monopolise 6/12 of the guild per day (for example people who arrived late, who cannot stay, ...) to help these newbies get flagged in one week.

Quote from: HrannXao you seem to be of the opinion that a casual player will eventually get the same upgrades as a hardcore player given enough time.  However, this will only be the case if SOE ups the level limits many more times.

History doesn't bear out this extrapolation. Expansions that added no new levels still managed to trivialize old content through simple mudflation. Even casual players can pick up gear in PoP that dwarfs gear from Velious. Additionally, there are new spells and new AAs to allow you to improve a character without raising the level cap.

As an example, my job pulled me out of the game towards the end of Velious and kept me away through February of 2002, an 18 month gap that saw the game advance well into PoP. When I left I was a well-geared, fairly powerful toon, though not truly uber. When I came back, that same toon had become fairly laughable: level 60, wearing kael quest gear, with no AAs. The five levels I found myself behind were the least of the discrepancies I found myself looking to rectify.

Quote
As it stands, I will never ever get into the Elemental Planes, no matter how much time I put in, because I am not interested in being part of a serious raiding guild.  It just is not fun for me, and I believe I speak for many EQ players when I say that.

You won't get into the Elemental Planes any time soon. It's perfectly acceptable to decide you don't want to raid, or just don't want to put up with the drama that often accompanies it. This doesn't mean you'll never see the current raiding zones of choice. I remember when Fear and Hate were content strictly for raiding guilds. Veeshan's Peak, Trakanon, Sleeper's Tomb, Temple of Veeshan, Derakor, King Tormax, Yelinak, and the Dain were all high level raiding targets at one time. Now, many of them can be single grouped by casual players.

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Without the upgrades from those planes and above, I doubt I will be able to progress much in GoD, even if I someday fully gear myself in LDoN (1k+ wins anyone?).  Remember my guild mates, all also non-raiders, will also have to put in the same thousands of hours to get the LDoN gear in order to have a shot at GoD.  We have about one group out of our 60 members that have this level of gear and we still experience trouble with the sewers.

I've started doing GoD with my Beastlord. No raiding gear of any sort, all LDoN or bazaar purchases and LDoN drops. It's doable if a bit painful at times. Check out the play time required to get geared up through the EPs sometime. It makes gearing up via LDoN seem downright trivial.

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All of the true upgrades at this point are based on not just hardcore playing, but hardcore RAIDING.  There are members of my guild that are on every single day for hours and hours - they play as much as any hardcore player, but they will never have the equipment of a raiding guild.

Yep, if you want the top end gear you have to raid. I really don't see a problem with this personally. I will never have top end gear myself, because I opted to join a more casual guild. It'll just take me longer to see current end-game zones.

Quote
LDoN was a good idea in my opinion, but the variety is just not there, the depth is not there, and the length of time required is just screwy.

I'll certaintly agree that LDoN wa spoorly implemented in a variety of ways, particularly in terms of the fairly generic feel of most of the dungeons (certain Tak layouts excepted). On the other hand, check out that manhours required to obtain raid loot sometimes. Seriously, for time invested/reward ratio, LDoN has it beat all hollow.

I need to chime in and say this...

hardcore gamer DOES NOT automatically = someone in a raiding guild.  

I consider myself pretty damn hardcore when taking into account that I've been playing this game since before Kunark came out AND have averaged around 30-40 hours a week in that time.  

I'm not time flagged, nor will I ever be.  

Like many, I've lost the taste for guilds, the back room politics that go on within them, the power trips, etc, etc...  

I know where you are coming from Cop, I myself am almost to the point of no longer getting upgrades (other than AA's).  This does need to change.  I'm willing to put in the time, but SOE needs to make upgrades achievable through solo or group content.  Hell, make it a l - o - n - g quest (so it will be justified through being a time sink, since this is the really what it comes down too), but make it worth that time sink.  

Now that would be nice; joeblow_raider001 spends 20 hours raiding to get a puresteel fist.  Okay, give me a quest that I can finish in 20 hours that will give me something compareable (not 20 hours of fluff, but 20 hours of relatively difficult content that I can do solo or with a group).  I think this balance was achieved for a short spurt with LDoN, now it's time to do a major upgrade to what can be had through LDoN.  

my 2cp

Exactly Scale.  I want a Spirit Walk of the Planes quest that is a alt route to Time.....a long long ass quest....min lvl 70 to start, designed to truly test knowledge of class, the only way to complete is with a very high level of AA.  So a ubah_guildraider would say, "So are you flagged foe Time?" Planes_Walker replies, "Yes, I completed Time solo quest." Ubah_guildraider thinks, "So he has xxxx AA, and must know his class to complete that quest, invite him into group".  Just a thought for solo Time quest.

QuoteExactly Scale. I want a Spirit Walk of the Planes quest that is a alt route to Time.....a long long ass quest....min lvl 70 to start, designed to truly test knowledge of class, the only way to complete is with a very high level of AA. So a ubah_guildraider would say, "So are you flagged foe Time?" Planes_Walker replies, "Yes, I completed Time solo quest." Ubah_guildraider thinks, "So he has xxxx AA, and must know his class to complete that quest, invite him into group". Just a thought for solo Time quest.

Honestly, that's an absurd idea.  What is the point of getting into Time if you can't do anything when you're there?  Time is a raid zone.  You need a raid to do anything there... anything.  What purpose would it serve to grant a solo route to entry?  It takes raiding skill to advance through Time.

Xao, you're right that SOE will probably make further expansions that get me access to this stuff.  I've often joked about soloing my way into PoTime after I'm Level 100.  That's why I said, As it stands.

It will be an extremely long time until I will be able to one group the PoP raids - I'm not willing to wait 3-5 years and numerous other expansions with uber content before I can access the rest of PoP.  I need an expansion with content for me sooner than that - otherwise SOE will lose all of the casual players.

Quote from: HrannIt will be an extremely long time until I will be able to one group the PoP raids - I'm not willing to wait 3-5 years and numerous other expansions with uber content before I can access the rest of PoP. I need an expansion with content for me sooner than that - otherwise SOE will lose all of the casual players.

Historically, it's about a one to two year time lapse, which can still certaintly feel like a long time. In the meantime, consider the amount of content you have available to you, and that which is blocked. Given that you don't want to raid, you're really only missing three zones, five if you're feeling particularly masochistic.

Went to a BBQ place for lunch today with some guys from the office. Ended up buying 2lbs of meat, some buns, and some sides instead of everyone buying their own individual sandwiches. End result was we got 1.5-2x the food for the same amound of cash. Think that is similar to EQ. The question is how much resources can you pool with the results approaching exponential vs linear. Am a mostly soloer due random play times and lengths combined with being in a mostly east coast guild with west coast play times. Because of that I started 2 boxing and am toying with 3 boxing.

The problem I can see with something like Scale suggests is why then would a guild go through the pain of raid encounters lasting hours and hours to achieve the same thing by gang banging something designed for a single group. Just as an example say the alternate quest is take down 10 mobs on the order of the X__ in ME for gems of the void. My guess is across the board you typically have to kill the same number of X's to get your 2 drops. The difference between individuals is what sort of group can you get there to take em out = how fast you kill em. If have to kill 40 X's to get 2 drops but it takes you 10 min per, including downtime, you are going to be there for a while vs a group that can take em down in 30 seconds. I realize Scale's suggestion was more to gain access to a zone but there have been other posts suggesting similar for similar gear. If that is the case I wont be able to get to that content as a casual player because it will be perma camped assuming there is little better out there. Like others have said I think there are basically 2 games at this point and to a large degree content (zones, parts of zones, gear, etc) needs to be indroduced accordingly. The above senario is very different from content geared to be taken on by ~4 groups+ if the reason it needs that many people is because of the numbers of mobs you are having to deal with at one time and I think the returns on that should relative.

To make LDoN more viable for the casual player I think the points spent shouldn't go away from your pool - or maybe anything you buy can be turned back in for a point refund like horses. The gear is already no drop so it wouldn't be like you can flood the market and gives the casual gamer a chance to upgrade. A problem as I see it is it takes so freaking long for younger level toons to accumulate points and then once spent you have to turn around and do it again only for longer this time only to eventually delete what you bought (depending on what it is). Another problem is from what I can tell you get the same basic zones no matter what level you are. The difference is really just the mob strength. My theory is your typical zone in the game is good for say a 10(+) level spread. An average person might spend 4 to 5 levels there before you feel the need to move on to something different (obvisously that doesn't apply across the board). W/o the introduction of new adventures zones players are going to suffer the same type of burnout - at least I have.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Have enjoyed the thread. The first paragraph was going to lead to a slightly different place but oh well. My post is already long enough.

Actually what if they put in something like the Tribute deal only instead of getting spell type effects you get adventure points - or something along those lines. Might be unbalancing at some point but you are always going to have some people who by one way or another are able to amass a ton of plat or whatever which would give them an edge. In this case the toons who are able to farm drops at a rate faster then others would then be able to upgrade the fastest /shrug. Would maybe help solve the problem of LDoN burnout and maybe people would get out and see the world.

Probably ate too much of the afor mentioned BBQ. Need to lie down under my cube at work and take a nap.

It's already been 2 years for PoP, it will be at least that much longer.  VT is still inaccessable.  VP is what, 4 years old?  I can get in there with one group, but certainly not kill anything worth looting.  But maybe that doesn't count, so I'd say 4 years is more like it.

All the content that is already accessible is also accessible to the raiders, yet they ask for new content.  And not just that, they want new content that provides upgrades.  All I want is the same thing, just not on the same scale perhaps.  Give me a way to get VT or elemental stuff over the next year, without having to join a 72 person raid.  I don't think that is too much to ask, given the fact that the raiders will have moved far beyond me by the time I get it.

Truthfully, I'll probably keep playing either way, but I would like the game to offer something to all my friends that keep quitting.

"The problem I can see with something like Scale suggests is why then would a guild go through the pain of raid encounters lasting hours and hours to achieve the same thing by gang banging something designed for a single group."

By making it an encouter that will not allow more than one group.  IE, anyone outside of the raid on an RZ encounter in Tactics gets booted.  So, anyone outside of the single group gets booted from the zone if they interfere with an encounter(s) of this sort.  

It's not that hard of an issue to deal with, they already do this on a larger scale.   :wink:

Part of the Berserker epic already throws the character into a solo battle.  The opponent even pauses occasionally for the character to bandage himself.  If they're planning on making solo/duo LDoN-style content, then they can certainly make quests that require solo, or no more than 1 group.  Look at the Hedge Maze--3 groups max.  It's certainly within their abilities.

Game on,

QuoteHonestly, that's an absurd idea. What is the point of getting into Time if you can't do anything when you're there? Time is a raid zone. You need a raid to do anything there... anything. What purpose would it serve to grant a solo route to entry? It takes raiding skill to advance through Time.

Because I will get to 70 with my characters and will have a ton of AA getting there and after getting there WITHOUT having had to join a huge ubah raiding guild.  So, when I am there, it would be cool to be able to be flagged if the opportunity presented itself for me to go on a Time raid.  If there was a quest like I mentioned, people that had done old school flagging process would not be so pissed that you got Time flagged a different way.  And honestly, nowadays that every strategy and way to kill bosses has been done and online it does not take that long to get to Time now as it used too.

Regardless, if it takes a raid to do anything there, it should require a raid to get there.

I have no problems with adding solo and small group content.  I think it's a very good and necessary step to take.  However, raid content needs to be accessed through raids.   It's ludicrous to do otherwise.

The whole motivation behind the suggestion is this line:

Quoteit would be cool

How about a solo quest to access VT, or how about Tvexu, cause that would be cool too  :roll:

I can see where it would eliminate some backflagging (when taking into consideration all the people that leave EQ and the spots that need to be filled in Time+ guilds).  

But at the same time, I personally could careless if I have the opportunity to be flagged for raid-content.  

I don't really dig guilds or raiding.   8)  

I just want the opportunity for similar rewards for similar time spent.  I'm still of the belief that I work much harder when solo difficult content than I do when raiding.  Therefore shouldn't my reward be at least similar if the time-sink is similar?

This is what I would like to see.   :D

Quote from: RhaynneRegardless, if it takes a raid to do anything there, it should require a raid to get there.

Agreed. That's one of the main points I've been trying to make: keep the high-end raid content completely separate. Alternate means to VT or PoTime or whatever only reinforces the idea that everyone should follow in the high-end guilds footsteps. It'd just be another carrot on a stick.

New content to explore and a steady pace of upgrades to be able to take on new challenges is all i ask. It doesn't have to be Time+ quality gear, just better then what's available now. The only ways for me to upgrade in power right now is via AA grinding and pp grinding --> bazaar, or doing endless amounts of LDoN missions. Drops from mobs that are an actual upgrade are almost impossible to get at any rate. Why on earth does this stuff drop from mobs for which you need better gear then the drops themselves? Same thing with tradeskills, if you've got access to the ingredients needed to make best craftable gear, that craftable gear is no longer an upgrade to you. Given the amount of time and pp you need to invest to become a grandmaster in any tradeskill, what's the point? I loved doing tradeskills with my first character. Mind you, this was in a time when you could actually make a buck from full plate.

/hugs

Now this conversation is starting to make sense.

So for the sake of arguement, forget all this alternate access to Time and VT and such.  Quite frankly I dont care, you aren't going to be able to do anything there without a sizeable raid force, so the whole idea is just useless.

Now, as far as Solo and groupable upgrades go, that seems fair.  It should all be quested in my opinion.  As soon as a mob starts to drop gear that is doable by one group of bazaar outfitted toons, then you are talking perma camped, usually by some 6 box dork.  This quested armor should be NO DROP for sure, and it should NOT be Time equivalent, just upgraded.  

The quest should be very long, and the pieces very rare.  Reason being, to avoid the PLers from outfitting their lvl 20 bst in this uber gear.  Just making a level restriction would not be good enough IMHO.  Achieving a piece of this gear should be an accomplishment on the lines of an epic (not ours btw) or the shawl.  

I could live with that.

Except I don't want one or two quests.  I want an expansion full of ways to upgrade (well mostly).  Make them all quests or whatever, I don't care, just as long as it adds content for me to consume and enjoy for more than a month or two.

Totally agree with you, Coprolith.

The people here asking for upgrades and are pissed with GoD, i have one question for you. Have you even done any fighting or progressing in GoD? From the various times i have spent soloing in some of the sewer expeditions for the BiC quest i have gotten quite a bit of elemental quality loot dropping from random trash mobs. I've seen a 36% haste belt with around 100 or more hp, a caster cloak with an effect and 100 or so hp, i've seen rings drop, lots of things and these mobs weren't too difficult, easily done witha group of bazaar geared toons. Plus, i know trash mobs in each of the zones drop fairly good loot in respect to bazaar bought gear. Maybe spending a couple days exping in GoD might net you a couple of the upgrades your talking about.

Quote from: HrannIt's already been 2 years for PoP, it will be at least that much longer.  VT is still inaccessable.  VP is what, 4 years old?  I can get in there with one group, but certainly not kill anything worth looting.  But maybe that doesn't count, so I'd say 4 years is more like it.

You can kill every mob in VP with four players, fewer if some of them are well-geared. It was accessible to casual players in late Velious or early Luclin. VT is certaintly not inaccessible, if you really want to get in. The only part that requires more than two people is the Emperor, and he's become a viable pickup raid target. Killing stuff inside might be an issue, though. ToV, Velious faction leaders, and even Sleeper's Tomb became accessible within two years, so I'd say one to two years is more like it.

So far, the EPs are on the far end of the spectrum, but their exclusivity is drawing to a close. I've seen pickup, or open guild, raids on VZ, TZ, and Agnarr so far. Several of the more casual guilds are progressing to the point where RZ is becoming a viable target.

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All the content that is already accessible is also accessible to the raiders, yet they ask for new content.  And not just that, they want new content that provides upgrades.  All I want is the same thing, just not on the same scale perhaps.  Give me a way to get VT or elemental stuff over the next year, without having to join a 72 person raid.  I don't think that is too much to ask, given the fact that the raiders will have moved far beyond me by the time I get it.

You conveniently overlook the fact that many hardcore raiders are still only in elemental gear themselves, but setting that aside, VT-quality gear is already obtainable through LDoN. GoD has loot available to single groups that is better than Elemental drops. Old gear can now be updated through augmentation. My Beastlord currently buffs out to 6200 hps or so. He has no raid gear. He has a ton of upgrades still available to him (no LDoN armor yet, no GoD drops, though I'm hoping to change that soon), and could pickup a few hundred more hitpoints just through augs. His weapons are already better than just about any hand to hand available in Luclin. I'll definitely be comparable to VT-geared Beastlord before I'm through.

I really don't see that casual players are hurting when it comes to getting geared up. Yes, it takes time, but we've alreayd covered the manhours required to get raid gear. What Coprolith is suggesting, that there's not enough content to explore, is something else entirely.

Quote from: Coprolith
New content to explore and a steady pace of upgrades to be able to take on new challenges is all i ask. It doesn't have to be Time+ quality gear, just better then what's available now. The only ways for me to upgrade in power right now is via AA grinding and pp grinding --> bazaar, or doing endless amounts of LDoN missions. Drops from mobs that are an actual upgrade are almost impossible to get at any rate. Why on earth does this stuff drop from mobs for which you need better gear then the drops themselves?

Have you spent much time in GoD yet? How about doing hard LDoN runs? I know the dropped loot in LDoN is too limited to ever gear yourself up completely this way, but what's there is damn nice, especially when you consider that you're making solid exp (~1 AA per hour) and earning 1/15 of a new piece of armor at the same time. GoD can be even better. Initially, the entire expansion was a clusterfuck of epic proportions, but since the revamp, it's become a very worthwhile place to visit... to the point that my guildmates are hitting the GoD sewers (which are open to anybody) instead of the EPs when we aren't raiding.

Quote
Same thing with tradeskills, if you've got access to the ingredients needed to make best craftable gear, that craftable gear is no longer an upgrade to you. Given the amount of time and pp you need to invest to become a grandmaster in any tradeskill, what's the point? I loved doing tradeskills with my first character. Mind you, this was in a time when you could actually make a buck from full plate.

Oh yeah, EQ's tradeskill system is one of the worst I've ever used. There's something seriously wrong when the biggest reason to do tradeskills is for quest components. Of course, since EQ lacks item decay, one of the biggest advantages to a tradeskill system is negated.

We've gone over this already.  LDoN is just a few zones that you need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to get upgrades from.  It is just too boring.  You convieniently left out the part where I am asking for new content along with the upgrades.

Listen, I will spend thousands of hours at LDoN, but not many others will.  Those others, my friends, will quit this game from boredom long before they get those LDoN upgrades.  What is needed is a real expansion with loot from real monsters or quests.  Content content content - is the only thing that keeps long term players from getting bored.  But content without upgrades would be ignored in my opinion, which is why I want the upgrades there.

GoD is geared towards hardcore players.  There are about 8-10 players in my guild of 65 that have any success in there, and it takes an extremely long session for even them to pass the first sewer expedition, nevermind the later ones.  Even so, there are some upgrades to be had, however hard they are to get; but the few zones available to casuals hardly count as an expansion in my mind.

Regarding the time lag - two years is ridiculous.  There is nothing that the hardcore guilds did while raiding 2 years ago that a casual group can do today.  I don't know what kind of casual players can do Hoshkar in VP with 4 people, my guild brought 12 people in there about 6 months ago and we wiped when he was at 97%.  Those same 12 could barely take Silverwing.  The Emperor in a pickup raid?  I've never seen it, but I suppose it is possible.  Again though, any expansion other than PoP is more than 2 years ago.  Luclin is coming up on 3 years.  Talking about Velious and Kunark is 6 and 7 expansions ago; no one I know is willing to lag behind THAT much.

Quote from: HrannWe've gone over this already.  LDoN is just a few zones that you need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to get upgrades from.  It is just too boring.  You convieniently left out the part where I am asking for new content along with the upgrades.

The elemental planes are also just a few zones (fewer than LDON), in which you need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to get upgrades from. Of course, if you get a good group together, you can knock out a hard LDoN in an hour. Even if it takes you ninety minutes, that's still only 22.5 hours per piece of purchased armor. Add in the chance for 0-4 nameds to spawn, each of which is guaranteed to drop some pretty nice loot, and you do not need to spend "hundreds and hundreds of hours".

Quote
Listen, I will spend thousands of hours at LDoN, but not many others will.  Those others, my friends, will quit this game from boredom long before they get those LDoN upgrades.  What is needed is a real expansion with loot from real monsters or quests.  Content content content - is the only thing that keeps long term players from getting bored.  But content without upgrades would be ignored in my opinion, which is why I want the upgrades there.

Using your definitions then, LDoN offered no content for raiders eithers. GoD definitely does, but since the revamp, it also offers some heavily underutilized content for casual players.

Quote
GoD is geared towards hardcore players.  There are about 8-10 players in my guild of 65 that have any success in there, and it takes an extremely long session for even them to pass the first sewer expedition, nevermind the later ones.  Even so, there are some upgrades to be had, however hard they are to get; but the few zones available to casuals hardly count as an expansion in my mind.

You haven't spent much time in GoD lately then. The revamp made a significant difference. You don't have to pass any sewer missions to get upgrades. In a three hour session the other day we got an Improved Damage 4 augment, some caster sleeves that wound up rotting, and a spell. The few zones? There are more zones available to casual players in GoD than there are PoP zones that they're excluded from.

Quote
Regarding the time lag - two years is ridiculous.  There is nothing that the hardcore guilds did while raiding 2 years ago that a casual group can do today.  I don't know what kind of casual players can do Hoshkar in VP with 4 people, my guild brought 12 people in there about 6 months ago and we wiped when he was at 97%.

The only thing I can think of here is that you were woefully unprepared for Hoshkar (who is definitely the second toughest mob in the zone). Our first runs at him during Kunark left us wondering what hit us too. That's the thing about new content though: you actually have to learn how to beat it. For what it's worth, we did it with a monk wearing Kael quest armor, a Beastlord wearing bazaar gear, a warrior wearing bazaar gear and a time geared cleric.

On a side note, if you feel like going after him again, bring your DR gear. His AE is resistable, but if it lands, the slow is going to kill your melee DPS and make it difficult to outdamage his enormous regen. The trick is to kill him fast. Of course, he only has 32k hit points, so a couple big nukes or a harm touch (if it'll land... haven't fought him with an SK in years) will take a big chunk out of him. Heck, four SKs sould one round him if HT lands ;)

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Those same 12 could barely take Silverwing.  The Emperor in a pickup raid?  I've never seen it, but I suppose it is possible.  Again though, any expansion other than PoP is more than 2 years ago.  Luclin is coming up on 3 years.  Talking about Velious and Kunark is 6 and 7 expansions ago; no one I know is willing to lag behind THAT much.

Yeah, Emp pickup raids are definitely rare, simply because most non-raiders don't bother to get keyed, and he's still a viable target for lower end raiding guilds, which makes it tougher to find him available.

The thing is, Velious and Kunark have been trivialized for a long time too. Luclin is trivialized save for one zone. All of PoP save six zones (ok, 8 if you count the B versions of Time and Earth) has been trivialized. So you're really only talking about 9 zones that the raiders have and you do not. If you want to argue that hardcore and casual players alike need more content, that's one thing, but I don't see a massive disparity in the places each can go.

Let me tell you a story about my very first toon in EQ

It was a dwarven cleric. I soon found a friend who played a dwarven warrior. We played EQ the way it was meant to be played. At lvl ~16 we travelled all the way from butcherblock to qeynos and back by foot (including 2 boat rides and a heartstopping nightly journey thru Kithicor, praying to Brell that ITU didnt fade) just to get these 2 items: Avenger Battle Axe (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=432) for my friend and a Bloodforge hammer (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=641) for myself. These days a lvl 1 newbie wouldnt even bother looting such weapons but in those days these weapon were 'uber'. But the exhilaration and fun we had during the journey and the incredible sense of accomplishment after completing the quest are what made me addicted to this game. We bought stacks of booze and invited every player in Kaladim to join us in our celebration.
We never bought any gear, we hunted for it or made it ourself. We only ever went to the EC tunnel (Bazaar didnt exist back then) to sell banded armor, him /auctioning and passing the orders on to me in Freeport. The money we made from banded i used to make us full plate.
By the time we were 40, he had a full set of Crafted and i had a full set of the Temple of Ro quest armor. At 50 i had an almost full set of dwarven cultural armor (the old type), made with my own hands

Can i still do any of this today with my 65 Beastlord? The answer is a definite: no.
In today's EQ i am sentenced to endless repetition if i want to improve my character. 1200 LDoN missions, or endless months of cash farming to buy upgrades in the Bazaar, followed by endless months of AA crunching. There are no quests that i can do that reward me with an actual upgrade that do not involve multiple-group encounters. If i want to craft Stonehide armor i need to be in a raiding guild to get access to the EPs, but if i had access to the EPs then i wouldnt need Stonehide armor.

I get by these days because between LDoN missions, about half a dozen zones that i haven't grown tired of yet, and weeklong parsing projects there's just enough fun left to continue if i vary them enough and take the occasional break. But make no mistake, the only real sense of accomplishment i get these days is from my parse projects.
Casual players have been sadly neglected since PoP. Its ok for people who are new to the game, but not for old timers like myself. LoY was nothing more then a handful of exp zones, good for a few months. After a dozen missions in each LDoN theme what little difference there is between them begins to fade and the missions become a minimum-wage production line job. What they should have done is make 5 themes of incremental difficulty, with each theme giving incrementally better rewards for all classes. And when you 'beat' tier 5 LDoN at normal difficulty, tier 1 hard would be the next challenge. This way there would be challenges for everyone, you could step in at the tier most appropriate to you. Don't even get me started on GoD.

And you know what really pisses me off? Mr. John Smedley saying there's plenty of content for casual players, and giving a 'helpful' tip to start a new character to keep a fresh interest. Yeah right, after having invested almost a 100 days /played on my current toon i'm going to bag it in favor of levelling up yet another toon, in zones i already know like the back of my hand, only to end up in the same position as i am right now, all just so he can continue to cash in on my subscription without having to spent a single dime of it on original, innovative, fresh content accessable to me and good grief this is a long sentence even with punctuation.  :D

Anyway, as always,
/hugs

My first toon was a dwarven cleric too :)  

Xao, I think at this point we are talking past each other.  I had a big paragraph in here furthering the argument, but it just seems from your comment that you travel in different circles than me.  The things you consider trivial and the assumptions you make are beyond the average casual players reach in my experience.

The main point I want to make with this post is that I never intended to say that hardcore players do not need more content.  I simply wanted to stress that getting their leftovers is not good enough for casual players - some content needs to be created with them in mind.

Very kewl story Cop.  

I remember those days as well.  My iksar warrior was very happy to get all banded and then elated to turn that into the quest armor that iksar warriors get.  

Being an iksar meant traveling on the rudder of the FV boat.  lol  (I didn't know of the invis potions back then).  

The game was more fun back then and SOE could do a lot to make it fun again by focusing on "group" content as well as raid content.  

I'm holding out hope.

QuoteThe things you consider trivial and the assumptions you make are beyond the average casual players reach in my experience.

I don't rightly see how.  He touched on every one of your points with counterpoints that were valid and accurate.

Quote from: RhaynneI don't rightly see how.  He touched on every one of your points with counterpoints that were valid and accurate.

This counterpoint, for instance, is misleading and makes some, in my opinion, large assumptions:

QuoteOf course, if you get a good group together, you can knock out a hard LDoN in an hour. Even if it takes you ninety minutes, that's still only 22.5 hours per piece of purchased armor. Add in the chance for 0-4 nameds to spawn, each of which is guaranteed to drop some pretty nice loot, and you do not need to spend "hundreds and hundreds of hours".

A "good group" is a subjective term. What makes a group good and how do you determine that when you're mostly grouping with complete strangers or casual aquaintances. That warrior I met last week who could tank Derakor with a letter opener and fingernail clippers hasn't logged on since. The enchanter from two days ago who could lock down 4 mobs and keep all the melees and casters happy with buffs only has 30 minutes to play today.

It takes months just to build a friends list large enough to be able to find 6-15 people on who you know can play their class. Then you have to hope they aren't involved in something or have enough time to come group with you. Heaven forbid someone in your list leaves the game as that's yet more time spent trying to find enough competent people to group with.

If your friends list or guild can't provide you with the full group you need to do a hard then you're stuck with random tells to people you don't know to round out your party. I don't know about you, but I've run into enough craptacular strangers who could screw up a normal collect 27 in Mistmoor Catacombs that I just won't take the chance on a hard. Right there my potential point reward has been halved and I haven't even gotten an adventure yet.

That doubles the time it takes for a piece of armor from 22.5 hours to 45 hours (never mind fully augmenting it). Equivalent to a week of play time for a raider or four weeks for a casual player who plays 10 hours a week.

That's of course assuming that the casual player in question can get a group together and done in two hours, that the group doesn't end up with Clueless Joe Jackson and fail, that the casual player even has time to do an LDoN on any given day, that he does nothing else with his playtime for the entire 4 weeks until he has that piece of armor and that he completely disregard the desires of his group/guildmates as far as progression for their characters are concerned.

Xaoshaen contends his beastlord is played as a casual character but his posts reveal that he doesn't as a general rule have to deal with casual player concerns outside of having to aquire all his gear on his own.

The real question is, can Sony address through content the needs of serious non-raiders which is really where the lack of content is felt. The truly casual players really do have a lot of content available to them ( which is not meant to imply they should never get any new content in the future ).

OK, if you insist:

QuoteThe elemental planes are also just a few zones (fewer than LDON), in which you need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to get upgrades from.

LDoN is 5 zones in my opinion.  And they are tiny, compared to outdoor zones.

QuoteOf course, if you get a good group together, you can knock out a hard LDoN in an hour. Even if it takes you ninety minutes, that's still only 22.5 hours per piece of purchased armor. Add in the chance for 0-4 nameds to spawn, each of which is guaranteed to drop some pretty nice loot, and you do not need to spend "hundreds and hundreds of hours".

He casually assumes that everyone is doing hard LDoNs.  In my experience, casual players almost never do hards - I have a hard time finding anyone willing to do them outside of raiding guild friends.  Casual players are lucky to get 1 regular LDoN done in a 90 minute period, as casual people tend to move a lot slower on setting up and such.  Sure once you are on a roll you can get them done quicker, but since casual players play in shorter chunks of time it averages out much worse.

The nameds in regular LDoNs drop junk, and seeing 1-2 of them is a treat - I've never seen 4.

Outifitting with one piece of equipment, with no augments, takes 30 adventures; with the time scale listed above, you can do the math.  Include in that you will need to do 30 more adventures minimum to aug it with decent stuff.

QuoteYou haven't spent much time in GoD lately then. The revamp made a significant difference. You don't have to pass any sewer missions to get upgrades. In a three hour session the other day we got an Improved Damage 4 augment, some caster sleeves that wound up rotting, and a spell. The few zones? There are more zones available to casual players in GoD than there are PoP zones that they're excluded from

The things in GoD you mention require doing mini nameds.  There are casual people that can one group these, but not many.  Even the yard trash in zones like Ferubi is extremely difficult - creatures hitting for 800 or 900 make 6-7k warriors go splat, nevermind if you don't have the optimal group makeup.

There are 6 fighting zones in GoD that the casual player can access with great difficulty - Riwwi, Ferubi, Natimbi, Barundi, Ferubi, 1st level of sewers.  There are more than that not available in PoP, if you include zones like CoD, which you left out.  But again, I don't care what the hardcore raiders can do, I'm asknig for new content, the same as they do.

With your 4 person group that killed Hoshkar, I'm frankly amazed.  Our group of twelve lasted a while, and we had difficulty overcoming his natural regen.  Perhaps that Time geared cleric helped.  I like the way it is assumed that the casual player has a set of DR gear hanging about.  Or that it is even remotely possible that we would have 4 65th levl SKs in our "group".  Remember, for the casual player, raiding is extremely rare and you can't assume things that would be normal or everyday for a raider.

QuoteThe thing is, Velious and Kunark have been trivialized for a long time too. Luclin is trivialized save for one zone. All of PoP save six zones (ok, 8 if you count the B versions of Time and Earth) has been trivialized. So you're really only talking about 9 zones that the raiders have and you do not.

Except for VP as mentioned above, I will agree that Kunark has been largely trivialized.  Except there are still things that are difficult for a casual group outside of that zone.  Gorenair if he's not immediately one grouped by some ubers, Veksar's dragon (not original I know), there's still smoe challenge to be had in Chardok, etc.  Velious still has the ring war, and raids are still required for all the old targets in Kael, SS, etc. (I know raiders can 1 group them all).

Luclin only has 1 zone that is trivial?  What about Doomshade and Rumblecrush, Grieg, and a host of other nameds that require a raid for casual people?

QuoteIf you want to argue that hardcore and casual players alike need more content, that's one thing, but I don't see a massive disparity in the places each can go.

I'm arguing that casual players need more content; the very vocal hardcore group in EQ can take care of themselves.  Whether there is a disparity in the places they can go or not - it is where they DO go that is the disparity.  90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.  I go weeks of playing without seeing a single member of the raiding community anywhere.  Rarely, I will see them doing a LDoN group.

I don't really think we have much common ground to argue on, as our experiences are obviously wildly different.  Also I want to add that some of the stuff is doable by SOME casual players - I do intend to advance in GoD eventually.  However, believe it or not, I am considered very high end by many of the people I spend time with.

Quote from: Kashmiir Battlekatd00dz

Heheheeh good one :)



Anyway.....I am casual. Yes would like to have the loot that  Time guys have but of course I don't have the time to get that stuff. So I agree that I did not earn it so it should not just be given to me.

I am happy when I save up some PP and am able to buy some super duper ( to me ) upgrade.  I was excited when I solo's my first monster in Riwwi and realaized, wow there is a chance that I can get the great tunic out of there.  Sure the chance is slim but it sure is fun to try.

The deal with being casual is that there is always something better to strive for keeping it for much longer than the hard core dude.  How excited can you get with an upgrade that has 280hp instead of the 275 your replaceing heheheh. Or if your claws go from 29dmg 15dly to 30dmg 15dly :)

QuoteLDoN is 5 zones in my opinion. And they are tiny, compared to outdoor zones.

How is it only 5 zones? Its 5 areas but each area has 5(?) different zones, yeah they all have the same look but so does elemental plane, entire plane looks the same with the same mobs. 5 different variation at least equals the size of a single elemental plane.

QuoteThe things in GoD you mention require doing mini nameds.

Items of elemental quality or better can drop from trash mobs and not named.

QuoteThere are 6 fighting zones in GoD that the casual player can access with great difficulty - Riwwi, Ferubi, Natimbi, Barundi, Ferubi, 1st level of sewers.

Actually there are 11 fighting zones -- Natimbi, Qinimi, Ferubi, Riwwi, Barindu, Sewers Plant, Sewers Crematory, Sewers Lair, Sewers Pool, Vxed and Tipt. To get a sewer expedition can just talk to Gamesh and that means you can get the 2 easier zones, crematory and pools. The mobs in these zones start out hitting for 500 max or so at the beginning and only start hitting harder the farther back in the expedition your willing to go. The trash mobs in these zones also drop elemental quality or better loot, 36% haste belt with 100+ hp, caster cloak with focus effect and 100+hp. I've been able to get these items soloing the IZ mobs and given them away.

QuoteI like the way it is assumed that the casual player has a set of DR gear hanging about.

I don't think he's assuming anything, he was giving you a helpful hint that the next time you attempt it, it might be useful to get some DR gear.

Quote90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.

Is that such a bad thing, if they were in zones accessible to the casual players then wouldn't they be taking mobs and exp away from the casual player. I can't count how many times i have been bitched at in tells for going back to old zones to mess around because the casuals say im taking all the mobs or that i should go back to my own zones.

QuoteHow is it only 5 zones? Its 5 areas but each area has 5(?) different zones, yeah they all have the same look but so does elemental plane, entire plane looks the same with the same mobs. 5 different variation at least equals the size of a single elemental plane.

Yeah right. Have you actually done any LDoNs? All so-called variations in a theme are made up of exactly the same building blocks. The designers of LDoN have been playing with Lego. Many of those blocks are in fact shared between the themes, only the texturing on the wall differs. The mobs in the different themes are almost exactly the same. They hit for the same amount of damage, they have the same amount of hps, and each theme has one, and only one, type of mob that has more hps but lower damage output (mummies in Mistmoore, wolves in rujark, etc). As i said before, once you've done a dozen missions in each theme all of LDoN looks the same; it might as well be one zone.

QuoteThe trash mobs in these zones also drop elemental quality or better loot, 36% haste belt with 100+ hp, caster cloak with focus effect and 100+hp. I've been able to get these items soloing the IZ mobs and given them away.

Said the guy with 1619 AC, 7351 hps and 300 in all resists unbuffed. Try fighting there with half your gear equipped and only one weapon, that'll give a better idea how a casual player performs there

/hugs

QuoteYeah right. Have you actually done any LDoNs? All so-called variations in a theme are made up of exactly the same building blocks.

Yes, i have. In fact, im roughly 50 wins away from maxed adventure stone. What i was argueing was the persons statement that the elemental planes are bigger then the LDoN zones. Combine all 5 variations of 1 camp and that equals at least 1 elemental zone. Doesn't matter that they have the same look because 1 elemental zone is going to have the same look throughout.

QuoteSaid the guy with 1619 AC, 7351 hps and 300 in all resists unbuffed. Try fighting there with half your gear equipped and only one weapon, that'll give a better idea how a casual player performs there

I'm not advocating that a casual player go there to solo (although a fairly well bazaar equipped player i think could). I'm saying they should go there to group. If they are able to find a tank with close to 7khp unbuffed and somehow find a healer that can heal for at least 509 a cast then their group should be able to tear it up. Grouping is the basis for this game (hence the MM part of mmorpg) so if people think they gonna be able to obtain upgrades doing solo things then they are in for a sore awakening and should maybe start looking toward single player games.

This could go on forever guys. I think we peaked a few pages back  :P

I'm ele equiped without a ton of nice stuff and can solo if I have all the buffs I need there (i.e. virt/kei and whatnot). It seems to be easier in someways than Riwwi due to lack of procs.
Those two easier sewers would be like doing BoT for the most part. Should be easy for a causal group to hang out near zoneline kill and hope for a named or rare drop. Heck, my normal group of friends, if we get a CCer, do the xp version of Vxed for the same reasons. Not trying to pass it or beat it but trying to get lucky on a named or rare item.

Also I recommend hard ldon to anyone who knows a good Ccer. Fun fun time.

I am a casual player, in a 80 (main) member guild.
My main is a 56 beastlord.
The only time the guild has raids is for someones epic.

The best experience for me is to do LDoN's. I do not get the chance to do an adventure every night, as there is usually someone in the guild that needs help with something.
I have found that I get turned down for some groups because my equipment is not the greatest. I think what I have is really good, for an untwinked poor main. The only items of note, is--
gold inlaid ulak - won on a random
ripped leggings - bought in bazaar for less than 2K (good buy!)
crinose cape - another bazaar bargain.

My HP is 2035
AC is 907
ATK is 1004

I think my equipment is above average for someone that has /played at  41 days, 6 hours. Born on Dec 3, 2002.

At a time, I actually semi-retired my beastlord, to play my other characters. The grind was becoming just too much.

I agree with the views of Coprolith and the others that have v iews in a similar vain. Everquest has transformed from a "grouping" biased game to a "raiding" biased game post Luclin expansion

Magelo
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=569815

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Quote90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.

Is that such a bad thing...

No, it's not such a bad thing.  I was just clarifying a point Xao questioned me on.

QuoteThis could go on forever guys. I think we peaked a few pages back.

I agree.

Quote from: ragashA "good group" is a subjective term. What makes a group good and how do you determine that when you're mostly grouping with complete strangers or casual aquaintances. That warrior I met last week who could tank Derakor with a letter opener and fingernail clippers hasn't logged on since. The enchanter from two days ago who could lock down 4 mobs and keep all the melees and casters happy with buffs only has 30 minutes to play today.

Well, it would be a subjective term, if I hadn't used in a context that pretty well defined a good group as one which could finish a hard LDoN in around an hour ;) What makes a good group, in the context of a hard LDoN, are several factors. One is group leadership. Having someone who can monitor your progress, moderate the pulling rate as needed, and generally keep everyone in line is a huge plus. Anyone can fill this role, so if a group suffers from poor leadership, we have only ourselves to blame. A good puller or crowd control is a must. Fortunately, monks, bards, and enchanter can all fill this role easily. I've had a cleric do it too, but he was an exceptional cleric and it's not a generally advisable strategy. Obviously, a good tank is important. I try to find a plate class with at least 8k hit points, which are pretty common on my server. Aggro lock is trivial for a hybrid, so they're the safe choice in a pickup group. I've done a number of them with random warriors with mixed results. Though we wound up winning, we did eat some unnecessary deaths when a warrior wasn't used to tanking mobs that could eat a wizard in a few rounds.. Again, good leadership can make a huge difference. If the tank can't hold aggro, change the way the group is doing things. You need a healer, either a cleric or a decent druid will do. I always ask them, particularly the druids, if they're comfortable healing against mobs that can triple for 1k. Also, make sure the tank and the healer are on the same page regarding the timing of the heals. It sounds like a lot of babysitting, and initially it is. Pretty soon you get a good idea of who can pull their weight in a more hazardous environment, and after a few smooth runs, people will start to seek you out for more fun and games.

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It takes months just to build a friends list large enough to be able to find 6-15 people on who you know can play their class. Then you have to hope they aren't involved in something or have enough time to come group with you. Heaven forbid someone in your list leaves the game as that's yet more time spent trying to find enough competent people to group with.

Yeah, I actually already covered this. It's not quite as bad as you make it out to be, though. For LDoN, even on a hard mission, you still don't need the optimal group, and provided you're on the ball you can help cover for other people's deficiencies.

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If your friends list or guild can't provide you with the full group you need to do a hard then you're stuck with random tells to people you don't know to round out your party. I don't know about you, but I've run into enough craptacular strangers who could screw up a normal collect 27 in Mistmoor Catacombs that I just won't take the chance on a hard. Right there my potential point reward has been halved and I haven't even gotten an adventure yet.

Well, that's your decision. I don't fail normals anymore, personally. It's not that I'm some kind of EQ god either, it's just that I now have quite a bit of experience with LDoN and can minimize the usual mistakes. I find that as long as I handle pulling and slowing, and use Ben to offtank, I can grab five random people and blow up a normal pretty quickly. because of this, I'm able to grab folks I've never met and find out if a chanter has trouble locking down a single add. If he doesn't, then I can add him to the list of people I can do hard runs with. Furthermore, I'm willing to take a chance on players from high end guilds on my server. It doesn't always work out (my loss came when our puller bailed on a hard to go raid), but usually their gear can compensate for any shortcomings in technique.

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That doubles the time it takes for a piece of armor from 22.5 hours to 45 hours (never mind fully augmenting it). Equivalent to a week of play time for a raider or four weeks for a casual player who plays 10 hours a week.

Nope, still only takes 22.5 hours once you've got the hang of things. Even if you do double it, it's still significantly faster than getting gear via raiding. Is it still too slow? maybe, but then that's a complaint with EQ in general, not simply a casual player issue.

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That's of course assuming that the casual player in question can get a group together and done in two hours, that the group doesn't end up with Clueless Joe Jackson and fail, that the casual player even has time to do an LDoN on any given day, that he does nothing else with his playtime for the entire 4 weeks until he has that piece of armor and that he completely disregard the desires of his group/guildmates as far as progression for their characters are concerned.

Xaoshaen contends his beastlord is played as a casual character but his posts reveal that he doesn't as a general rule have to deal with casual player concerns outside of having to aquire all his gear on his own.

Actually, I deal with all the issues that you list. Because of my lack of flags, and a general dissatisfaction with grinding amongst my guild, I rarely get a guild group. Most of my friends from the old days are in raiding guilds these days, so when I'm free to play my Beastlord, they're frequently raiding, or otherwise unavailable. Ninety percent of my groups are pickup groups, which suffer from the same issues regardless of whether you're hardcore or casual. I'm grouping with the same people you are. I do find that I can put together a group pretty quickly these days. Being able to fill the role of slower is an enormous benefit. I feel worse for the casual monk or rogue right now. Now those poor bastards have it rough.

One of the good things about LDoN is that you don't have to be selfish. At the same time that you're earning points, your groupmates are getting the exact same rewards. While GoD doesn't offer points, the variety of drops make an expedition potentially profitable for everyone involved. the recent (much needed!) changes to the spell drops help further this too.

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The real question is, can Sony address through content the needs of serious non-raiders which is really where the lack of content is felt. The truly casual players really do have a lot of content available to them ( which is not meant to imply they should never get any new content in the future ).

Eh, there's just not that big of a content discrepancy. We're still only talking about a handful of zones that are still exclusive. Could EQ use more content? Heck yeah! The massive volume of content for raiders isn't the argument you want to use, though. They really can't go that many more places than anyone else.

Quote from: HrannOK, if you insist:

QuoteThe elemental planes are also just a few zones (fewer than LDON), in which you need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to get upgrades from.

LDoN is 5 zones in my opinion.  And they are tiny, compared to outdoor zones.

And the elemental planes are four zones, in my opinion, since Earth B is just more of Earth A.  5 > 4.

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He casually assumes that everyone is doing hard LDoNs.  In my experience, casual players almost never do hards - I have a hard time finding anyone willing to do them outside of raiding guild friends.  Casual players are lucky to get 1 regular LDoN done in a 90 minute period, as casual people tend to move a lot slower on setting up and such.  Sure once you are on a roll you can get them done quicker, but since casual players play in shorter chunks of time it averages out much worse.

I know that most casual players don't do hards. I also know that they can if they want to push themselves. I know this because I do hard runs with casual players. I do normal LDoNs with random pickup groups that definitely include casual players and we knock them out in 30-45 minutes on a regular basis.

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The nameds in regular LDoNs drop junk, and seeing 1-2 of them is a treat - I've never seen 4.

True, which is exactly why is never advocated farming the nameds on normal.

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Outifitting with one piece of equipment, with no augments, takes 30 adventures; with the time scale listed above, you can do the math.  Include in that you will need to do 30 more adventures minimum to aug it with decent stuff.

Or 15 hard adventures, or an appropriate combination thereof.

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The things in GoD you mention require doing mini nameds.  There are casual people that can one group these, but not many.  Even the yard trash in zones like Ferubi is extremely difficult - creatures hitting for 800 or 900 make 6-7k warriors go splat, nevermind if you don't have the optimal group makeup.

Yep, GoD requires a pretty optimal group. Almost every new expansion does initially. Once people get more comfortable there and get a bit better gear, this too shall become the domain of the odd group.

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There are 6 fighting zones in GoD that the casual player can access with great difficulty - Riwwi, Ferubi, Natimbi, Barundi, Ferubi, 1st level of sewers.  There are more than that not available in PoP, if you include zones like CoD, which you left out.  But again, I don't care what the hardcore raiders can do, I'm asknig for new content, the same as they do.

Of course I left out CoD, seeing as how it's open to everyone (and there's some great exp to be had there for pickup groups too!)

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With your 4 person group that killed Hoshkar, I'm frankly amazed.  Our group of twelve lasted a while, and we had difficulty overcoming his natural regen.  Perhaps that Time geared cleric helped.

Oh, undoubtedly. Snero's the man, no question about it. Of course, each of us outdamaged him, but I certaintly wouldn't recommend trying to clear the zone with four casual players. The thing to remember is that Hosh's only got 32k hit points. If you can stay unslowed for 30 seconds, Bestial Fury will tear him up. A couple of wizards will give him a really bad day as well.

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I like the way it is assumed that the casual player has a set of DR gear hanging about.  Or that it is even remotely possible that we would have 4 65th levl SKs in our "group".  Remember, for the casual player, raiding is extremely rare and you can't assume things that would be normal or everyday for a raider.

Well, the four SK routine wasn't intended as a serious suggestion, but a single Sk could still do 25% of Hoshkar's life with one click. DR gear is ridiculously easy to come by. Things like crafted jewelry, tattered mantles, and the like are easy to camp or farm and cheap to come by. If you can resist his AE, you don't really need much in the way of hit points or AC. I wasn't assuming that you already had these laying about, but suggesting that you expend some minimal effort in preparation should you choose to go a second round with the big green fella.

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Except for VP as mentioned above, I will agree that Kunark has been largely trivialized.  Except there are still things that are difficult for a casual group outside of that zone.  Gorenair if he's not immediately one grouped by some ubers, Veksar's dragon (not original I know), there's still smoe challenge to be had in Chardok, etc.  Velious still has the ring war, and raids are still required for all the old targets in Kael, SS, etc. (I know raiders can 1 group them all).

Sure, there's still challenge to be found there, but it's all very doable for casual players.

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Luclin only has 1 zone that is trivial?  What about Doomshade and Rumblecrush, Grieg, and a host of other nameds that require a raid for casual people?

And yet, they're still very killable by casual players.

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I'm arguing that casual players need more content; the very vocal hardcore group in EQ can take care of themselves.  Whether there is a disparity in the places they can go or not - it is where they DO go that is the disparity.  90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.  I go weeks of playing without seeing a single member of the raiding community anywhere.  Rarely, I will see them doing a LDoN group.

Your server must be very, very different than mine. I see, and frequently group with, members from the top raiding guilds on the server on a regular basis. Whether it's for type-7 augs, or just charm improvements, there are incentives for raiders to hit LDoN too. GoD expeditions for farming or progression, are not as common yet, but they've become much more accessible as of late, as people start to realize what a difference the revamp made.  

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I don't really think we have much common ground to argue on, as our experiences are obviously wildly different.  Also I want to add that some of the stuff is doable by SOME casual players - I do intend to advance in GoD eventually.  However, believe it or not, I am considered very high end by many of the people I spend time with.

That seems to be the common perception: that raiders, like parents, "just can't understand". The thing is, I've been in both situations within the last year. I played a level 60, AA-less monk with armor from Velious (and not even high end Velious) during Planes of Power. I work 50+ hours a week, and have commitments outside of EQ that cause my play times to fluctuate significantly. I still do play more than many casual players, but not to such a degree as you might suppose.

Quote from: LorathirThis could go on forever guys. I think we peaked a few pages back  :P

Yup, coming to that conclusion myself. Unless someone has specific objections to something incorrect that I said, I think I've stated my position fairly clearly.

I do think EQ could use more content, and certaintly more adventure. I just think that this applies at all levels of the game, and don't see a massive gap between the content available to raiders and that open to casual players.

QuoteI do think EQ could use more content, and certaintly more adventure. I just think that this applies at all levels of the game...

Well, I guess we can agree to agree with this assessment.  :)

QuoteOh, undoubtedly. Snero's the man

lol... using Snerito is like cheating, Xao =P

Hey, I helped PL him, so I just see it as a return on my investment :D

QuoteThis could go on forever guys. I think we peaked a few pages back

Alrighty, let me try to stoke up the fire again  :twisted: . Here we go:

QuoteI do think EQ could use more content, and certaintly more adventure. I just think that this applies at all levels of the game, and don't see a massive gap between the content available to raiders and that open to casual players.

That last sentence is just the thing. It's not about how you see or think or feel about these things, its how the casual players feel about it, and how SOE responds to it.
How I, and many other casual players, feel about the current state of EQ is that the adventure is gone, and that the game is becoming increasingly repetitious, because there's nothing new to the 'new' content that has been added, its just more of the same. Endless xp crunching, endless cash pharming, endless camping for items, all for minimal upgrades. What a hardcore player thinks about that irrelevant. They spent most of their time raiding, with new raid targets on a regular basis. Their non-raiding sessions are not continuous like that of a casual player. They simply don't know what its like to go thru the game without getting any real sense of accomplishment or adventure.
How SOE responds is: not at all. They are to busy trying to keep the high-end guilds happy. In truth, the bulk of the guilt lies with SOE. For one thing, they've cut back on their staff by such an amount that they simply cannot adress every issue anymore. And secondly, they've allowed themselves to grow into the EverRaid mentality because the high-end players are voicing their concerns ...erm...how to say this nicely...ah yes... are voicing their concerns with 'gusto'.
The combined result of this is that a minority of the player-base are hogging the majority of SOE's resources.

But the fact remains that now that the casual players are finally starting to speak up, suddenly the hardcore raiders feel the need to stick their noses in because they presume to know what's best for the casuals. They presume to know the way how casual gamers feel about the current state of EQ. Their problems are much more important then those of others, and so they feel the need to belittle the problems of the casual gamers. If i hear one more hardcore raider say that casual gamers have plenty of zones to play in and can just do a lot of LDoNs to get their gear upgrades so they shouldnt complain I'm gonna puke all over them

I simply want my share of SOE's development resources. As long as SOE doesnt increase their dev staff capacity that would mean that hardcore raiders are going to get less. Tough noogies, welcome to my world, welcome to repetition.



How was that for heating things up?

/hugs

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm not even sure what we are arguing about here.

This thread began with the question:  "Is it our fault?"  And the answer is basically "Yes, but Sony is an enabler."  

Many years ago, I used to live in a fraternity, and we got the old text-based Role-playing games.  Eventually, we got a system down and, working in shifts, we could finish a game in just a couple of days that would might take a solo player weeks.  If those games had been designed to be so convoluted that us "powergamers" could keep grinding at them indefinitely, it is very safe to say that the solo players would have found them impenetrable and horribly frustrating.

To an extent, I think everyone who plays EQ today is a "powergamer."  OK, we don't all belong to exclusive guilds, but every time someone looks up a quest on Allakhazams, or reads a zone walkthrough, he's taking part in what I call "assembly-line play" instead of roleplaying and adventuring.

It may not have originally been planned this way.  VI was breaking new ground with MMORPG's, but the "helpful" Web sites and communities that started to fill the gaps in the game design are now considered indispensable by nearly all players.  I mean, we don't call them "cheat sites", but what else are they?  Whether you're one of the fraction of a percent of players who actually any individual quest, zone or encounter, or whether you're one of the vast majority who looks up the info and uses it, we're all basically taking part in the same "game."  

I desperately want an MMORPG that is designed to be what the name says:  "Roleplaying."  By that I don't mean, "talking like a retarded Englishman," I mean basically the following:

1.   ACCESSIBLE QUESTS.   Not quests that require talking to dozens (or hundreds) of NPC's and wading through countless pages of apparently random drivel and then randomly killing hundreds (or thousands) of MOBs and turning various body parts in to see what happens.  I mean quests that are tailored to you, where you know who you need to talk to and where you either know what needs to be done or have some commonsense way to figure out exactly what you have to do and where the quest is heading.

2.   "ADVENTURABLE" ZONES.  Not zones with completely undetectable invisible floor pits and bizarre aggro ranges that are death on a stick until you get them figured out, which then turn into endlessly boring treadmills with just a very brief period of "fun" in between.  But zones that are fun to explore, with accessible hints IN GAME to let you figure out the tricks for yourself.  

3.   TRUE DUNGEON CRAWL INSTANCED ZONES.  Emphasis on the word "crawl."  Not the mad-dash timed races that LDON "adventures" are, but rather the old-fashioned PnP zones where you see clues, have to figure things out and have the time to really take in the atmosphere.  You know those yellow messages that come up every once in a while in LDON?  Like that, except they actually mean something, and you have to stop and smell the ocher every once in a while if you want to get out alive.  

4.   ZONES DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE LOTS OF INDEPENDENT GROUPS INSTEAD OF ONE RAIDING FORCE.  The reason exploring new zones is so intimidating is that they are designed to trap you once you get inside.  Of course in a "real" dungeon, you'd have killed everything behind you, so that wouldn't be a problem.  In a non-instanced persistent zone, that's not practical, but the current "run away like a maniac and train dozens of MOBs behind you disturbing everyone else in the zone" design simply was not a good solution.  Why not provide something else, like I don't know, maybe mini escape hatches inside the zone, or some sort of "get out of jail free" powers for all classes that would serve a role similar to that of Feign Death?

I don't know how everyone else feels, but if Sony made an expansion that was designed to be played from the point of view of the player's character, instead of something designed to be a challenge for people "roleplaying" a hundred guys in a dorm hacking a computer game, I would be all for it.  If somebody is such a "good" player that they could finish the new game in a couple of days, great, give them a medal and promote them to the "winner's server" or something.  But why do I have to suffer because of the way they choose to play?

Don't get me wrong, I'd miss you guys, and maybe we could come back here from time to time to say "hi", but if the purpose of this forum, Allakhazam's, guilds and everything like them disappeared tomorrow, I would be happy as heck about that.  The problem is doing that would require Sony to do two things:

1.   WORK – actually make a game that lets us figure out what's going on from inside the game, and uses the thing sitting on my desk that has a hundred times the processing power NASA's mission control headquarters had thirty years ago, instead of forcing me to keep reams of handwritten notes and access dozens of outside Web sites; and

2.   PLUG THEIR EARS to the inevitable screaming from people who cling more tightly to their support network than to the idea of actually having fun and accomplishing goals actually INSIDE the game.  

I am more than willing to do may part and let go of my support network if Sony will do their part.  My guess is that a very large number of players feel the same way.

The problem is that Sony is set up to listen to the very people who have the biggest vested interest in keeping those support networks going.

Sorry for the double post above.  For some reason I'm unable to edit.

EDIT:  It was a quintouple post =P  You can't edit in the rants forums.  It's like that on purpose.  I deleted the 3 posts where you quoted your first, but left this one to letcha know.

- Rhaynne

I do blame Sony.

Sorry, in RPG's you level to get more options, have more possibilities, ect-

Sony, in it's narrow focus has limited the upper level to raiding if you want to progress-and each new expansion as of late has mostly focused on raid content-

Having single person LDON missions would have helped some, hell, AO was doing this 3 years ago (and is the game LDON pretty much ripped off in concept) but overall there's not a lot to do at 65 other than raid.

Perhaps introducing quested progression or decent tradeskillable armor and weapons would help, but other than playing on FV if you want a 50ac tunic you better be raiding.

Well, I've raided and raided, and I dread any more key farms, flag farms, and so on. It's a headache now, not an accomplishment.

The game and it's options should have expanded at the higher end, not narrowed- that's against RPG rules 101- and it's Sony's fault for going down that path.

I have no problem with having rewards for hard core gamers, in loot, abilities, etc.  However, the current seperation between casual and hard core gamers is wide enough that friends can easily get seperated over time by flags and keys.  

I know former members of our family guild who are now Time-flagged that I haven't seen face to face ingame in over a year.  When you start breaking up the original friendships that form in game by artificial barriers, is it any suprise that the focus of the game turns to content and loot, and people start leaving both guilds and the game?

Take the EP's, for instance.  About one person per month seems to reach them in our family guild.  Once there, guess what... no one else in the guild is flagged for the planes, so he has to group with others if he wants EP's experience and drops.   Given a couple months of this, and it's no suprise that family guilds are bleeding to death from a steady loss of their higher level characters.

If the problem is keeping the riffraff  out of the big kids' playgrounds, maybe the high end needs to be instanced but unflagged.  Exp, drops would be dependent on kill rates & difficulty.  If the players can't hack it, they harm only themselves.  But they'd still have a chance to group together with friends.

Very good point, Stijder. Not only has the upper end put up barriers between players, but it has put on time limits as well.

To expand on my already mentioned points about narrow paths, when I look at the options I had at level 50 to now at 65 there's no comparrison.

When I logged on at 50, it didn't matter what time of day or night I logged on, or how much time I had to play. I could solo in a huge assortment of choice zones and dungeons if time was limited, group just about anywhere if the time of day was right, or work on a quest or part of my epic, up some trade skills or, if on the right night, raid with my guild or farm plat for a needed upgrade.

Now at 65 with all bazaar items long exceeded there's no point in farming plat, no point in working on trade skills when the resulting items are a downgrade, few zones to hunt in and even fewer to group in, pretty much have to log on n prime time for an LDON group and pretty much have to log on at a pretermined time to get flagged or raid-

geeze, now all of a sudden if I want to make any progress I have to log on when told to or i miss that raid or flag- that's kinda sad, all this work and now I'm stuck having my play style and time dictated to me because there's no other options.

And as mentioned I may be excluded from some activities because I lack a flag or a key or an item, forcing my teammates to backtrack in utter boredom or leave me behind.

So many other things could have been added at the high end, from examples from other online games to inovative new ideas but instead it's just more raid drizzle, and to make matters worse, not even remotely as interesting as raid content from months and years past.

The carrot on the stick has wilted.

Scaling.  That's the problem, but it's also the solution, and I think a fair one.

Major encounters should be scaled to fit the force against it.  It should be level-range locked and there should be some hard ceilings and floors, but other than that, it should be totally based on what's coming at it.  The rewards should debatably be the same.

Take Fennin Ro for an example.  He has a set difficulty based on expecting 70ish people against him.  He was "tuned" for that.  And that's groovy.

But what if you want to try Fennin with 40ish people because that's all your guild can field at a time?

Now ideally, the server would calculate how many people are on his hate list (alternately in a certain "physical" range to prevent exploits), and scale the HP and DPS of the mob from there.  So, assuming all else is equal, Fennin would be about 40% of "normal", but it would be every bit as difficult an encounter as with 70.  Factors such as average AC by class, average Mana by healer/nuker, average resists, etc would figure in as well.

In fact, that would prevent bottom feeding by bringing this to bear obversely.  Trakanon being faced by a group of 70's would be significantly tougher than the Trak faced last week by a group of 50's on paper, but the fight would be subjectively just as difficult.

Drops would scale as well.  A raid of 65's on Velks would yield gear appropriate to the progression level where the raiders are.  So a Velk's raid could yield EP+ gear if that's appropriate for where the raiders are gear-progression wise.  It would know this by averaging out mana/hp/ac/etc of the people that actually engaged the mob and were on it's Hate List (no taking a group of 50's and killing Velk while using the vicinity system to bump the gear by having a mess of lvl 65's around).  

A group of 50's who take down a scaled version of Terris Thule would receive gear appropriate to where they are in terms of gear progression.

Average out the important stats, consult a loot drop table for appropriate gear given those averages and call it a day.

You'd likely want to increase the spawn-rate as well.  Uber guilders would have a reason to go back to Kael Drakkel and make KT dead.  Additionally, Family guilds would be more able to take their three groups of dedicated raiders to Ssra and snatch up AP's goodies whereas they couldn't do that now.

The challenge would be roughly the same.

The loot would be enticing for where that raid is gearwise.  An improvement, but not giving out gear inappropriate for the raiders taking on the challenge.

It'd require some refining, but it seems to me that this is the fairest way to go.