During my lunch break at work today, I browsed through the campfire forum, with the hope of seeing something cool. Woot, something about pet changes, with mages crying that they can't slow mobs anymore cause sony "stealth nerfed" a slow proccing weapon they were giving to their pets. So I wonder over to the Mage Compendium, and find a lengthy discourse from high standing members of the mage community bagging SOE and all they stand for. Within that, numerous snipes and bitches about how beastlords get 65% slow already and omg they are overpowered!!...
I am bunnies-ing sick of other classes thinking that we are overpowered. We are not. Look at tanking ability - yes, we can tank well, assuming that a) you have uber gear and aa's, and b) you have a solid healer. Look, I am reasonably well equipped. I have about 70 avoidance last time I looked, with 1800 ish buffed ac, maybe more. I don't look at the numbers any more, it's pointless. If I was to try to tank stuff that I hunt, my poor cleric would spend so much time healing me, that's all she could do. Boy, how to make a clerics life exciting. I get destroyed by anything hitting high damage because I haven't invested all my gear upgrades in shielding.
We can heal our pets and let them tank. EXCEPT that with a base delay of 9 seconds, the stuff we want to kill will have eaten our pets, so we get a once every 9(?) minute insta heal. Their mitigation/defence just isn't up to what other people have.
I have some fairly good weapons. 25/19, 26+1 (or+2)/22. My dps from these weapons is fairly good, with raw melee damage (including kick, and full buffed) around 140 dps (if some newly rezzed caster doesn't require SA, in which case dps drops hugely cause well, you stop attacking for 8 or so seconds). procs add about 10 dps? bit more maybe. My pet (I currently have only the 68 one) would maybe do 75 melee dps, tho pets are hard to keep alive in the OoW trials which is mainly what we do now (cause with all these mobs running around, with 4k ae's, ae rampaging mobs, etc). No-one knows what dps pet procs do.
I parsed the melee's in our guild during a qvic raid. My melee dps was about 135, my pet was about 70. (This was on IK before OoW I admit). Monks were EASILY out damaging me and pet by 50-100dps, rogues blew me away, hell, paladins were damn near equaling just my own melee dps, and warrior surpassing it significantly.
But to have a MAGE crying about his dps, whining that his pet was not putting out enough dps and the pet accounts for at least 25% of his damage... Get bunnied. Ok. Mage pets are 100+dps. The mages are crying "nerf beastlords" when they can damn near double our dps, their pets can take a lot more beating, and now want to be able to slow as much as us??? Bunnie that. They are screaming about the injustice, and it pisses me off because I just can't see the injustice.
Why can't people just shut the bunnie up and enjoy the game? If they are so mad about it, quit the bunnie thing or make a class they will enjoy. I wish my beastlord did more DPS. But i'll settle for having fun thanks.
Quote from: LatangGet bunnied.
OK, sorry to derail your post, but I love that.
/hugs Latang, and Rhaynne :P
Quote from: LatangIf they are so mad about it, quit the bunnie thing or make a class they will enjoy.
This right here is my feeling exactly. I don't understand why one class has to slam and complain and flame another class because "oh, they get to slow, why can't we?" or "They're overpowered, we are supposed to be the uber class, NERF THEM!"
I started EQ with a Necro and got him up to 63. When I saw a class be able to do something that I couldn't it didn't make me want to come and find the boards to complain and slam that class. No, it made me say "You know, that looks like it could be a sweet class to play". I've now got a 53 (almost 54) Beastlord and have put my 63 Necro, 43 Rogue and 31 Wizzy on the backburner.
My point is if you see a class thats got something that yours doesn't and you really want to do that something...........Go play that class.
/sniff
Lata, you had me at bunnies.
In all seriousness, the rampant mage whining is from a select minority of short sighted, nitpicking fools. Vocal fools, but fools nonetheless. One thing I have always been proud of in the beastlord community is that, with the exception of the few, we have the ability to look outside our own class and look at the overall impact of changes and our requests reflect that.
Too many loud people from other classes cannot see past their own class and do not have the ability to see outside their own concerns. Take comfort in the knowledge that the average beastlord can understand the abilities of other classes as a whole before comparing and contrasting percieved lack or overabundance of power.
What gets me is how all of a sudden, the drones over at the Mages Compost made a few gestures at getting us on board after their vocal screeching / and crusade of pure fantasy burned most of the bridges of good will among even the most docile members of our community.
Then they have to nerve to get idignant about us more or less telling them to get bent when they need our input.
If another mage community springs up away from the dumb-asses that are running things there now, I would go back to exchanging ideas and thinking of solutions that affect our classses. As of now however, the mages have let the worst of their class be their voice. I for one have nothing more then a hearty /gofuk for 'em.
BC
When I see someone post over here asking for moral support and remember that he's the same person who decided last year to repeatedly flame the entire Beastlord community on both Mage and BST boards (anyone who's been around a couple of years knows who I'm referring to) my sympathy is extremely limited.
Some people like to piss and moan and act like tits. If they weren't doing that, they'd be letting the air in your tyres down, hiding in bushes, or phoning you up at 3am to ask if the Ali Baba jugs are still for sale.
EverQuest is providing a vital service to your local community. Rekkanize.
Heh, even with the overtures, I don't think the pet classes are ever going to agree. Look at what happened when The Druids Grove tried to get the Priest classes together to discuss their problems. It helped some people to see the other side of the coin... but it really didn't do much at all. I don't expect much better from any pet class discussion.
There are no whiney classes, just whiney people. The reason why some classes appear to have more of them then others is because those classes have more problems to whine about, and have had those problems a lot longer. With the exception of berserkers, all classes have more history to them then us and if there's one thing that induces whining, then its the 'good-ol'-days'.
Mind you, im not justifying the whining itself and the fact that they take it out on classes with less problems then themselves out of petty jealousy is abhorrent. But make no mistake, if the situation was reversed then beastlords would whine just as hard. You and I are no different then 'them', its just that less of 'us' have reached the breakpoint.
But I'm already seeing a change occurring on this board. With OoW our class has become weaker simply because of innate game mechanics, yet i've seen things like "looks like the constant cries for nerf beastlord of class_X is finally paying off" pop up several times. Proposed solutions to current problems that could benefit other classes as well are met with strong resistance because heaven forbid "they" get an upgrade as well.
The fact that you titled this post "whiney classes" instead of "whiney people" is just another symptom.
With all due respect, that pool of drivel that I read didnt have 1 "Person" saying "what are you complaining about? we're sweet". Like it or not, that is the cross section of the mage community that we generally see, with the exception of individual guildmates/friends. Yes, I'm being specific atm and saying mages.
They are the over powered ones now. A mage being able to maintain 530+dps on a tacvi named? Over 1kdps for 60 sec? This class is complaining that as well as all that they cant slow mobs to 61% like they used to be able to. Well omg, let's cry about it shall we? We want to have pets that are much tougher than bsts cause we cant slow, and oh, pets are at least 25% of our dps. Well, they want to be able to slow too, and set up an 8 page rant when they can't. Our pets are roughly 1/3 our dps, if we have VERY good weapons, and our only advantage is we can (sometimes) slow mobs. On mobs that partial mitigate slow, surely mage pets are by far better at tanking than ours.
"People" who have it as good as they do should really shut up in case they attract too much attention to themselves...
The solution is is simple one, it always has been.
If there are a few 'niggling issues' a community percieves as a hindrence or a problem with their chosen class, it should of course be debated, worked out. I think we're seeing this happen with the Beastlord class right now, circa GoD and OOW. Whatever channels are available for discussion/resolution they should be used.
If the 'niggling issues' multiply or get worse, you've a different situation. For whatever reason, things aren't being resolved. You're using the correct channels, adhering to suggested means of communication etc. But there's a limit on how far you take this.
IF YOU'RE ISSUES AREN'T BEING ADDRESSED, QUIT THE GAME OR PLAY ANOTHER CLASS. There's only so much time you really need to devote this to.
Why waste so much energy, stay up so late at night, petition so much in AN ONLINE GAME TRYING TO CORRECT AN ISSUE WITH A FREAKING SUBSET OF IT?
If the fun disappears, try and make it fun again. If you aren't being listened to, then for gods sake quit. You owe it to yourself, not your community. Remember, it's a pissy little fraction of a pissy little game you're trying to change, not remove poverty from the world. Put it in perspective, don't be a martyr for the cause your championing when the representative of said game comes to your internet website and you personally attack the poor bugger.
For crying out loud, there are more important issues that are crying out for the amount of dedication you have. But you choose to attack other pissy little subsets in your pissy little game. Blimey.
This is why I fly off the handle when I see anti-Bst sentiment, or any class envy. I get angry because I see so much wasted potential, so much energy that could AND SHOULD be used to affect more important issues. EQ is more than a game, yes - but not THAT much more.
Quote from: LatangThis class is complaining that as well as all that they cant slow mobs to 61% like they used to be able to. Well omg, let's cry about it shall we? We want to have pets that are much tougher than bsts cause we cant slow, and oh, pets are at least 25% of our dps. Well, they want to be able to slow too, and set up an 8 page rant when they can't. Our pets are roughly 1/3 our dps, if we have VERY good weapons, and our only advantage is we can (sometimes) slow mobs. On mobs that partial mitigate slow, surely mage pets are by far better at tanking than ours.
"People" who have it as good as they do should really shut up in case they attract too much attention to themselves...
"People" don't always have it as good as you may think. "People" probably think the same thing about the Beastlord class but others know differently.
The point they are making in a whiney fashion is that they once had the ability to do a ghetto slow at sizeable cost and now they have lost that ability entirely. For reference, how many times did you rely on your epic to do the slowing for a group? Or how many times were you grouped with a range who was main slower, and how reliable was it?
As Coprolith so well put, the whiney mages indicates a larger problem. Dismissing them as a whiney class who don't know how good they have it is disrespectful. When beastlords have whined for a year because we can't slow and people dismiss us as a whiney class, I hope you get the irony then.
Wow all the hate.
Just remember that out of all the mages that play EQ probably less then half of them are posters on that forum.
Out of all the posters on that forum probably half of them are contributing to the whinefest.
Blame the individuals not the class. I have lots of mage friends (none of which actually post on the mage compendium, though some are lurkers).
Lorathir, seeing your lavish use of capital and bold letter you must be pretty upset about this. Maybe you should take your own advice. After all, there's no point in getting an ulcer over a game.
QuoteRemember, it's a pissy little fraction of a pissy little game you're trying to change, not remove poverty from the world
/hugs
It's often therapeutic to just tell it like it is. I've never been the sort to mince my words, so I don't know any other way. Besides, it's rare I get steamed, and when I do, five mins later I'm happy again. I doubt I'll get an ulcer. :)
Personally I bitch/get pissy to prevent the ulcer. Just annoys me when "people" want to have their cake and eat it too, and to take cake off other "people" and bag the ones who made the cake cause there wasn't enough of it to have 2 spare cakes just for them.
...
You know, I have to agree, that is it whiney people, not whiney classes. I play a 65 mage as well as a beastlord. I'm not really playing the mage unless I need pet toys or something specific, but overall I'm not upset by the changes. SOE makes changes, and we have to get used to it and adapt, it's been that way for along time now. Sure with the class correspondents it helps to get our voices to SOE to have things improved to our desires, but overalll they will do what they want so we have to take it with a grain of salt and keep going. Or if thye can't do that, maybe they should find another class / game.
I think it's just whiney people that aren't happy with what they have so they have to whine about others' abilities and their lack thereof.
I've always felt that certain classes are more likely to attract whiney people than others. Or perhaps its certain forums are more prone to whineyness than others.
...and don't even[/i[ mention monks. Or shaman. Or pallies...
I just raid when raids are on and play my newly created Rogue twink (that almost busted my once nice bank plat balance hehe) when I have some downtime, since I am now 70 and bored of the aa grind. :)
*mage here*
Ok, the nerf in question was a..not welcoem thing. It was to oen specific item, Di'zok oracle shilllagh, prcos 70% slow. APparenlty devs are going to add "no pet useable" tag to items they deem inapproriate.
Devs think pets are too durable now and thussuch items = over powered.
I hear doen totla idiot claim that the item procced EVERY fight EARLY and was thus too powerful...total moron. Random proc chance, same as any other: coudl proc early, as mob dies..you could never rely on it. It was NICE to solo but it was far far too unreliable to *trust* or replace a slower. I had about 12 or so f them over the years, each time me or pet died soon after...as a raid mage the longets I've had a pet with Suspend Minion 3 is 5 days..when I was not playing much ;)
The "Slow Stick", as it's known , is primnary only thus if gave pet a weapon with better delay, the slwo stick would become unusable, an interesitng FYI. No one , NO one used the damned thing because it's a piece of junk, except for pet classes. It's Shaman wepaon procs 70% slow...in combat, req level 51 iirc. So what shaman needs that, and it has no good stats. Just made mages have fun, as necros didn't need it, BST can slow anyway.
mages are whiney because, well, us old timers, have had way too many damned nerfs and changes ot take any of them lightly.
it's also probably a clas trait: "Attract_Cranky_Codger"
;)
Mage class kicks total ass as a "DPs for group" class, lot sof useful abilities, very high DPs.
Does anyone remember when the Nearly Complete Heal (NCH) spells came in for Druids and Shaman?
If you had been reading the Cleric boards at the time, you would have think they had removed half our spells, lowered our skills caps and chopped both arms and legs off. Yet .... fast forward to present day, everyone has just accepted thats the way it is and gets on with it.
My personal opinion was/is that Druids get whatever they want if they whine enough about it. Clerics lost their stranglehold on the healing monopoly and wanted BIG things to "balance" it. Snare, better nukes etc etc. Most of which they didnt get.
Yet does my Cleric go to the Druid/Shaman boards and make a big stink about it? no.
However you feel the classes are, balanced or not, after scanning alot of the class boards it seems EVERY class has an issue of one sort or another.
Remember the famour Warrior "sit in" in POK? and as a result, subsequently all the knights got the hump that they couldnt tank in newer content as effectivly.
Clerics complaining of lack of utility (invis primarily)
Shaman complaing of slow mitigation and being un-desired if a BST is in group.
The imfamous Monk nerf
Bards complaining because they could no longer kite an AA every 10 minutes.
However the issue of SLOW to mage pets seems a little more basic. This issue seems to be a case of high level toons wanting to go and kill things without a slower. Certain classes were designed to slow .. and others were not
It seems quite simple to me. If you want slow, bring a slow capable class into your group or go without. Same with healing.. you want healing .. bring a healer into the group.
Cailus,
Ah, but...
what if they stopped BST pets using snare, stun or mage summoned weapons? ;)
We're talking about a very rare item here. that did NOT allow mages ot be "slowers". Check out proc rate of normal weapons on mobs, remember mages can't dex buff their own pets.
Quote from: Silverblade-T-ECailus,
Ah, but...what if they stopped BST pets using snare, stun or mage summoned weapons? ;)
Then like most things .. people would have a bit of a shout, rant, jump up and down a bit, rant some more, then it would blow over and the world would keep on turning. (see reference to NCH`s)
Also I would say it wouldnt affect 80% of Beastlords out there at all, and I am sure the other 20% would find some other work-around.
Actually, beastlords wouldnt care. Snare? we have hobble, its not great, its not reliably but it procs 7 to 8 times a minute instead of the 2 times a minute that a weapon does. Stun? everyone of our higher level pet procs has a stun and real beastlords can slam. Mage summoned weapons? Mages would be the loudest to whine since they lose customers and one of the easiest plat generators for them.
Quote from: Dummkopfand real beastlords can slam.
Preach one Brother!
BC
Quote from: BloodCeltQuote from: Dummkopfand real beastlords can slam.
Preach one Brother!
BC
Preach
On too
Quote from: BloodCeltDummkopf wrote:
and real beastlords can slam.
Preach [on] Brother!
BC
LOL I was thinking the exact same thing!
Quote from: Silverblade-T-EAh, but...
what if they stopped BST pets using snare, stun or mage summoned weapons?
I don't think there would be many beasts complaining about snare weapons. Even the ones without hobble. Most beasts (from what I gather from this board) accept what our limitations are. Anything we lack as far as utility goes we just chalk up to the "Vision" not wanting us to have it. We do, however, complain when we aren't upgraded properly through some recent expansions.
But overall, I don't think many beasts would mind losing the abilities that droppable weapons gave our pets (except mage gear, which we all love :wink: ).
Hey guys, thought I'd come over and say a few things just for shits and giggles. :)
1. Never used the Di'Zok slow stick. Never cared about it. Don't care that it was nerfed.
2. Regarding slow: Most mages don't want slow or snare. It has been my experience that the newer mages (read those created after Luclin) bitch about this the most because, well, they're pathetic.
3. Defensive vs. Offensive. Fact of the matter is: YOU are a Defensive pet class. Yes, you slow, you tank, you do a lot of things - but let's face it... your DPS sucks. But that's the way it SHOULD be. Magicians are an Offensive Pet Class. We can tear shit up like nobody's business, but if our pet drops, we're mince meat.
4. My complaint about Beastlords - and I have only one jealousy towards you, I'll be perfectly frank. Your heals are more efficient than ours. Once again, that's defensive vs. offensive... but we have a recast time of 7.5 seconds on most of our heals, where you have a recast of 2.5. Hell, our OoW heal has a recast time of 10 seconds and only heals 550 hitpoints more! We don't even get Heal AAs. So there... I've admitted my jealousy! /cry
5. Pet weapons - the only mages I see selling pet summoned weapons on a regular basis are bots.
I saw a lot of stereotyping here based on perception of personalities at MC. I'm not going to lie and say they don't whine, cause they do. Hell, I'm one of the biggest ranters over there - but rarely rant about anything specific with my class.
Why? Cause it's not broken. And my personal belief is that any Magician who bitches about the damage output of a mage, doesn't know the first thing about playing their class.
Do I sometimes get a twinge of green when I see you guys soloing more XP worthy content? You betcha - but only because I hate the 2%AA per kill grind all the time. You can mitigate the damage, slow it, etc. and the same content eats through our pet and us. Does that make you a better class? Hell no.
Just different.
The way it should be.
Nice to meet you Rylden :)
Fair comments all, as I stated a coupla times early on in the posts, I shoulda named this thread "Whiney people" but /shrug. I should never have gone to MC, cause it just pissed me off. Hell, going to MB or Pally board is damn near as bad. But you are right, we DO have defensive capabilities, that's true enough. High end beastlords pushing 2k ac and 13k hp makes us quite able to take damage on a wholly different scale to mages. My concern with our class stems from the "your dps sucks" comment. Mate, you watch beastlords on a raid. We SA everyone, we fero a few classes (can keep 4 people fero'd with the 65 and 70 spells with relative ease, tho timing em sucks), yes and mass paragon. Then we wade in to melee. When our asshole monk calls out "grats me top dps" and then lists the the people in the top 10, and top 20, dps... and I'm not on it... We are a dps class. That's been our defining ability since day 1.
Not anymore. Oh well. EQ1 seems to be dying anyway. We are struggling for numbers now, and there are only so many times you can recruit people to have them pad out their magelos then dissapear and see their char selling on player auctions.