There will be an update to the top 10 list coming out sometime monday(10/10). There are only a few minor changes to the list overall. I've added in the issue of warder graphics because there are several issues now with iksar warder bugged(for awhile lol), trolls overall unhappy with the appearance of the new basilisk model, etc.
I'm in the process of trying to get some definite answers from a couple key devs on a couple of our other top 10 issues atm. What that means is that likely next month we'll have a couple open spaces to make some larger changes with. Now would be a good time to start posting some of the ideas you'd like to see on the top 10 list. I hope to have answers to atleast a couple of issues(good or bad) so please feel free to offer up multiple suggestions. Also as always please feel free to e-mail/PM me as I know some prefer that.
Yeah, I think our haste needs looked at if we haven't gotten some official response I missed.
It seems silly to me that we end up being so out-classed by a potion. I think both we and shaman need to be adjusted kinda in this respect.
If we're going to have one item be on warder's appearance... there is something that shouldn't be too difficult to do, but would make vah shir warders look more purrfect. Keep the same model, but add a bumb map like the DoN kitties have. Also, change the animation set to that of the DoN felines.
If you haven't seen them, the leoppard and puma in DoN are absolutely beautiful. The animations are just... graceful.
Quote from: Shieara
It seems silly to me that we end up being so out-classed by a potion. I think both we and shaman need to be adjusted kinda in this respect.
Don't forget Shifting Shield (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=431&source=Live), too... that little Veteran's AA pet thing casts Shield of Words (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=20&source=Live), which offers a 13 AC boost over our spell (plus it lasts 35 minutes longer). Admittedly, Veteran AA pets aren't gonna be popping up all over the place all the time like a potion will, but it's still somewhat irksome. :-(
Im realy happy with the dps boost we got. Not perfect but happy. Cant wait for the new top 10.
you guys are way more knowledgeable on the technical specifics than i am so ill leave that alone. as for the pets though, im still wondering why they didnt just allow you to pick what race you wanted to be and then pick the warder that you wanted by your side. its seems silly to me to have a beastlord able to only commune with one type of beast. then maybe we wouldnt be crowded with tiger pets. a vah shir with a bear pet or an iksar with a tiger pet or an ogre with a wolf pet. that would be cool. also it would kick butt to have a black panther pet in the line up. 8-) gotta allow current bl to change their pets once though if they wish. i bet the off balance to current tiger pets would change quickly.
Yeah the haste potion really bothers me. *shrugs*
As I've said before the top 10 is just one thing. I'm going to try to get a few spell/AA answers during this list and maybe even an update on the warder situation. This list won't see many changes, but I wouldn't be surprised to have 3 or 4 changes on the next list or the one after that depending on how things go.
As for other things.... http://eqbugs.neoclaw.net/ has a lot of ideas.
If I had to pick a couple ...
Change pet spells/disc/clickies/etc to just workwithout changing our target to pet. It's extremely annoying if a full raid is assisting you, and every minute theres a chance people will get my pet instead of the intended target. The new disc just adds to the problem, as melee time is lost while fumbling back to the target.
Have them re-code how recourse is done or add a new method just for player+pet spells. It was never intended to be used how it is now, which is why it's so buggy. Focus doesn't affect one of the two parts of the spells. Then theres the new disc being activated when it shouldn't, killing the timer.
As they add more spells that affect both us and pet... these two problems that have been festering a long time now are just getting more and more notiable and annoying.
new hot key for new disc usage:
/alt activate 127 **frenzy of sprit**
/disc emp **new DoD disc**
/disc fury **old disc, designed to run when theres no pet out, else times out**
/assist **assists pet to get back on mob**
only downside is for those times where pet isnt out and i end up burning /disc fury instead, cos then the /assist will actually /assist the mob i have targetted and give me the MT .. but it should work well in 99% of all situations.
Not too thrilled with the werewolf pet .. yes, its real nice dps. But it totally doesnt fit in with the lore of a beastlord .. we are one with our warders, and quite frankly, fluffy is getting jealous. Plus its another annoying model in the way for rogues to bitch at us about.
Quote from: sicshift on October 09, 2005, 09:43:01 PM
you guys are way more knowledgeable on the technical specifics than i am so ill leave that alone. as for the pets though, im still wondering why they didnt just allow you to pick what race you wanted to be and then pick the warder that you wanted by your side. its seems silly to me to have a beastlord able to only commune with one type of beast. then maybe we wouldnt be crowded with tiger pets. a vah shir with a bear pet or an iksar with a tiger pet or an ogre with a wolf pet. that would be cool. also it would kick butt to have a black panther pet in the line up. 8-) gotta allow current bl to change their pets once though if they wish. i bet the off balance to current tiger pets would change quickly.
I would be almost completely against this idea. I would not want
nasty vah shirs runinng around with scaled wolfs, no way. What i wouldn't mind though, is having a different set of "beasts" per each race. I.E; Vah shirs can have tigers, pumas, panthers..whatever, and so on for each race.
As for other things, i think the pet targeting would be a HUGE thing to address as one of the top deals. It really affects us in fights like vish where some things cannot be hit at all cost, and sometimes they are right in front of you.
QuoteI would be almost completely against this idea. I would not want nasty vah shirs runinng around with scaled wolfs, no way. What i wouldn't mind though, is having a different set of "beasts" per each race. I.E; Vah shirs can have tigers, pumas, panthers..whatever, and so on for each race.
Hey, I resemble that remark :-P
Seriously though, since DoN came out a while ago I wouldnt mind being able to change my tiger to one of those sleek cats.
Other then that, I really cant think of much except spells but I already PM'd you on that detail awhile ago Tast.
Will definetly support the pet targeting on spells thing as top 10 worthy. The having to mash assist after casting a spell is annoying and has been on my top list for ages.
I would also like to keep the haste subject in the top 10. And I would like to deny all the Vahshir from any koolness they would so want with their pets.
QuoteAnd I would like to deny all the Vahshir from any koolness they would so want with their pets.
Good thing I'm Vah Shir and not Vahshir, evil race of my bretheren I tell ya. :evil:
I know it's on there, but please allow me the ability to remove buffs on my pet...PLEASE!
Right now I see the pet targeting/recourse/spell-thingy being on the next list. It's just becoming more of an issue and it's a very important mechanic I think for the class as a whole going forward. The loss of buff extention, the re-targeting, and other issues are just too much atm.
The haste issue I plan to bring up directly with ry along with a few other spell issues within the next couple of weeks. I'm not sure what will come of it, but I'm hoping we atleast see a few tweaks to a couple of our more problem having spells.
Quote from: Dreead on October 10, 2005, 08:32:55 AM
Quote from: sicshift on October 09, 2005, 09:43:01 PM
you guys are way more knowledgeable on the technical specifics than i am so ill leave that alone. as for the pets though, im still wondering why they didnt just allow you to pick what race you wanted to be and then pick the warder that you wanted by your side. its seems silly to me to have a beastlord able to only commune with one type of beast. then maybe we wouldnt be crowded with tiger pets. a vah shir with a bear pet or an iksar with a tiger pet or an ogre with a wolf pet. that would be cool. also it would kick butt to have a black panther pet in the line up. 8-) gotta allow current bl to change their pets once though if they wish. i bet the off balance to current tiger pets would change quickly.
I would be almost completely against this idea. I would not want nasty vah shirs runinng around with scaled wolfs, no way. What i wouldn't mind though, is having a different set of "beasts" per each race. I.E; Vah shirs can have tigers, pumas, panthers..whatever, and so on for each race.
As for other things, i think the pet targeting would be a HUGE thing to address as one of the top deals. It really affects us in fights like vish where some things cannot be hit at all cost, and sometimes they are right in front of you.
having a couple different pets to choose from for each race is a nice idea too. i was just throwing an idea out there. i dont like any of the other current ones really except maybe the bear. gimme a panther 8-)
I would add (in no particular order)
- Doing whatever coding is necessary to make pet spells and disciplines work exactly like AAs, and affect your pet without changing your target at all. If I want the "functionality" of actually targeting my pet, I will hit F1 twice. If the mages or necros want to keep this functionality, then make it a toggle or something. I can't imagine why they would unless they want to keep the pet targeted for damage shields or whatever but that seems weak.
- Fixing the healing spells. Trushar's is totally busted. Muada's is less efficient than Chloroblast.
- Fixing the DoT spells. They should get a resist mod like other DoTs (shamans should get this too, honestly) and the progression should be fixed. Turepta Blood is *less* damage than Scorpion Venom, which makes no sense.
- Doing something about AE ramp. Either smarten pets up so that they can stay at max melee and avoid ramp like a player can, or give them a way to mitigate AE ramp damage specifically. Pets were made immune to normal ripostes (as opposed to enrage) because they couldn't be kept alive, and now the same thing happens with AE ramp.
Oh, and I forgot to add:
- Show pet spell/proc damage from buffs/weapons/etc. It should be a seperate category so that you don't have to see everyone's spells just to see your pet's, AND you shouldn't have to enable everyone's pet spam just to see yours. Should be "My Pet Spells" just like "My Pet Hits" and "My Pet Misses." Maybe a lot of us would feel happier with the damage our pet did if we could see a lot of it.
- Clickable pet buffs. How many times do I curse myself for putting Irionu on right before we go fight a bunch of cold-immune NPCs? :)
Yeah a few good issues. Ramp is getting brought up by mages as well. Healing/spells working on it. The pet buffs is still on the list(like dots) and hopefully will get some attention soon. *shrugs* We'll have to see what happens. There have been lots of changes going on spell wise latly so maybe we can finally see some changes to fero as well.
Yes! listen to bengali hes a smart one. Took all my suggestions though :( lol
Edit: oh yeah! Dont forget itemization, especially focuses. And i sure wouldnt mind an upgraded pet graphic similar to the stuff in DoN though its obviously not a first priority.
Yea I would really like to see AE ramp taken care of. Lord only knows how many pets I have lost due to a golem pull in anguish. And my pet is complety useless in tacvi verses Elite Mastruq Berserkers, i just suspend it when i see them inc. Also useless pet on vish (Tip: I put pet on guard nearish to vish, and hold. Then can at least you panther while fighting).
Quote from: Bengali on October 11, 2005, 12:51:07 AM
- Fixing the DoT spells. They should get a resist mod like other DoTs (shamans should get this too, honestly) and the progression should be fixed. Turepta Blood is *less* damage than Scorpion Venom, which makes no sense.
I agree that we should have some sort of a resist mod on out DoT's, disagree that shamans should get one.
Shamans get the Malo Line of spells for Cold/Fire/Magic/Poison debuff and the Decay line for Disease debuff.
Adding a resist mod on their dots would be more than a Tad bit unbalancing.
A Gimped version of the shaman debuffs would be a viable choice, similar to the gimped version of Cripple etc, or add the resist mod to our dots.
All for either a new single target haste with an increase in duration, or a group version of the one we have with same duration.
A group version of our Focus of Alladnu (with possibly half of the stats from IOS added/ or not) would be in line with spell progression.
Ferocity still could use some sort of tweaking.
QuoteAll for either a new single target haste with an increase in duration, or a group version of the one we have with same duration.
right on
QuoteA group version of our Focus of Alladnu (with possibly half of the stats from IOS added/ or not) would be in line with spell progression.
I would rather get the group IoS and group haste. It would be more reasonable and fitting. Asking for group alladnu+stats would be nearly identical to Fo7. (31 hp short of it)
IoS at 70 is fairly useless, even for some of the Baz geared bsts these days, would get more use from the focus being group, adding half the IoS stats to it is just a suggestion.
Group IoS was tried, was not really needed at the level we recieved it and was changed.
Group Focus of Allandu would get much more use , adding half of the ios stats would just be flavor, not needed at all really.
It would be close to Fo7 i agree in hps. But giving us a group version of Focus at 70 comparable to a level 62 shammy spell would not be to far fetched from a spell progression standpoint.
That and group haste would be a welcome addition.
I've communicated some of my concerns to Tastian via PM but I'll post some of the things that I would like to see as well
- AE Ramp - OOW, DoN, and DoDH all have seen a major increase in the amount of mobs (trash or raid) that AE Ramp. I believe Pet Mend was originally introduced to fix the problem of pet's dying due to this. However, with as hard as most of these mobs ramp, pet survivability is a joke. On many of the encounters so far in DoDH, I have yet to use a pet because of the AE Ramp and the pet's inability to position itself at max melee. This positioning problem is an ongoing issue and has never been truly looked at. Either fix the AI of our pets to automatically stay at max melee, substantially increase the mitigation or avoidance of our pet on AE Ramp or give us better tools to keep our pets alive. We are Beastlords, not Monks with a mini DoT pet.
- AA Selection - I am personally somewhat satisfied with our aa selection from DoDH. However, some thoughts after fighting in DoDH in raiding. Whoever decided that Fetter of Spirits was more important than an upgrade to paragon, should be fired, immediately :(. Most of these fights in DoDH take 5-15 minutes (with one taking almost an hour) to complete. I've used paragon more in this expansion than I have in the previous 3 combined. Honestly, with as long as these fights are lasting, if they don't want to upgrade paragon, how about giving us an aa-line, that reduces its reuse?
- Group Fero - I don't know about other beastlords, but our dps have grown extremely accustom to having Fero. I don't mind Feroing (I'm our zerker feroer), but having to waste another spell slot to keep both Fero and Fero of I up annoys me. I floated the idea of giving us a group Fero spell, that would be a bit of a downgrade from Fero of I, but an upgrade over regular Fero. It would also have a significantly longer recast time or have a shorter duration. Personally, what I am envisioning is a spell that is a bit better than regular fero, that lasts 10 minutes, but only repops for casting every 5 minutes, and GREYS out all other Fero casting, to prevent givng us 3 atk line spells. That way, its not too overpowering (allows you to fero 2 groups of dps, IE twelve people, where as you can fero about 6 right now). I would even go so far as to ask for a group fero spell that lasts for 5 minutes and repops in 4, because it would free up a spell slot, and rather than having to remember to target 6 different people every 1.5 minutes, I could hit the group fero every 5 minutes and be done with it.
- Haste - its been a problem for a long time now. Either give us a group spell or increase the duration on our current line of spells
- Heals - Muada's is inefficient, Mikkily is too slow for AE Ramp. Increase efficiency on Muada's, decrease cast time/amount healed for Mikkily.
- DoT Viability - I haven't loaded a DoT for a raid or for grouping in 6 months to be honest. Its horribly ineffective on raids, and just not worth the mana in exp groups because of the fact that you usually don't get your money's worth. However, on the new raids that last a ton of time, it would be nice to use these (upgraded mind you) over our nukes, because of how long the fight's last.
On the subject of group IoS versus group Foc.
Example: just last night on a mpg trial run I IoS'd everyone in the group, btu the war wanted his clicky hp for the AC, and the cler/ench/nec all wanted their hp buffs (since no druid). So I only Foc on 2 people, and IoS everyone in the group. I still use it because half my gear is dex-less.
Saying one would be better then the other cannot easily be done. It is highly situational. Lots of melee, lots of casters w/o druid. If you are not post time, melee probably still use IoS as well as casters and more use for IoS. Post time, group alladnu would be more used.
Agree .. group Allandu would me more useful with the pack that I currently run with, but even that would be limited to just xp groups w/no Shaman. I don't have to cast IoS too often anymore unless, like you said, I'm grouping with someone that is pre-PoTime but it still would be useful to have. Group haste would really make my day, though =)
<---------will take any group buff that is given our class :-D
I'm pre time, I still use IoS. My str and dex are not capped unless I waste the aa on the innate stuff like I accidentally did with stamina.
How about putting Endurance on Tier 1 OoW armor. Or give us a end. regen spell.
Any feeling on if the Dev's are still adamant against endurance regen except from the AAs and normal sit time? Cuz Dontpet's thing there would be wonderful. SA stacks will pretty much all hp/mana regen. It would be nice to have it have the end component as well. Make the melee actually have a use for it.
I can't believe I forgot to mention haste. That's a big one. Simply put, our haste should be better (in duration) than the vendor potions.
Quote
I agree that we should have some sort of a resist mod on out DoT's, disagree that shamans should get one.
Shamans get the Malo Line of spells for Cold/Fire/Magic/Poison debuff and the Decay line for Disease debuff.
Adding a resist mod on their dots would be more than a Tad bit unbalancing.
Necros get a poison debuff and their DoTs still have a mod. Druids have a fire debuff and their fire DoTs still have a mod. The point of being a debuffing class is that you have a way to help everyone's spells (including your own) land much better, so it doesn't bother me if you can debuff and have a DoT with a mod on it. Plus, all mods don't have to be the same. SK poison DoTs have a -100 mod, perhaps because they can't debuff poison the way that necros can, who have a -50 mod on their poison DoTs.
The thing with DoTs is, they aren't really more efficient than nukes most of the time (their damage is wasted because they don't go full duration), there's a limit to how many you can use (30 nukers on a raid do a lot of damag,e 30 dotters wouldn't because of limited debuff slots), and they don't even have a better chance of landing than a nuke (for us, that is). So given all the disadvantages, my main point is that one tradeoff between nukes and DoTs should be that nukes have a high chance of doing a lot of damage up front and a fairly good chance of landing, whereas DoTs have a high chance of landing and a fairly good chance of doing a lot of damage.
With that said, though, if shamans don't get resist DoTs I won't lose a lot of sleep over it, but I certainly don't see why our DoTs shouldn't have resist mods, because we don't have any resist debuffs at all.
"I agree that we should have some sort of a resist mod on out DoT's, disagree that shamans should get one.
Shamans get the Malo Line of spells for Cold/Fire/Magic/Poison debuff and the Decay line for Disease debuff.
Adding a resist mod on their dots would be more than a Tad bit unbalancing."
Shaman can reduce resists by 70 with sinia, and 55 with malicious decay. With no resist mods on their dots.
Necros can drop fire by 36, and poison, and disease by 55, and have -30 on curse, -50 on venom, -100 on fire, and -50 on disease. (-20 on snare)
Now I don't really care either way, but how can you say shaman having resist mods on their dots would be unbalancing when necros already have bigger -resist built into some of their spells than shaman can debuff, *AND* have the ability to debuff some resists almost as well. I mean 70 from sinia can be resisted, most will run with malos which is only 55 to the resists, which is what a necro can take from poi/dis, but their poi/dis gets a -50 built in save as well. *shrugs*
Also when it comes to spells/buffs I'm trying to get some time with ry right now. I e-mailed him today and hopefully I'll have some new information soon. I'd like to discuss a couple of buffs, the bugged healing progression, the usefulness of fero, etc.
Depending on where they stand on end regen we might see a piece of that. but it'll really depend how far off they think it is and how much they want to add.
Fero I see going one of two directions. Either much more powerful and staying single target, or getting a small boost still, but becoming group. There will be some on both sides of the issue I'm sure, but at this point I think most would just like to see one of our only class things actually useful and kinda "oooo daddy like" again.
Pet spell/disc targetting I really want addressed, but we have to keep in mind that this isn't a bug. It's a change to how the system currently works that would require some re-coding and how much is unknown at this time. I will bring this up a lot and would like to see it changed because I'd like to see more spells like this in the future, but it's not a bug or anything that we can simply say "fix this". Rather we have to explain the issues and why they should change the system that's in place now.
Lots more, but like I said, this was the light month as some still feel out depths and get the spells/AA/disc/etc. If ry can find the time to answer a few more questions, then I could see 3 or 4 spots opening up and changes either next month or the month after that depending.
As always please keep sending the suggestions and pms/e-mails/leggy red-heads. 8)
Since we are part shaman (a utility class) I would like to see beastlords distinguished a bit from shaman, mainly maybe an exclusive line of pet buffs that we can use to buff up other people's pet.. Maybe a line like Growl of beast with a damage modifier bonus, or add a DD proc. Maybe make it 1/2 as effective as spells we can land on our pet, but still allow us to help augment our grups DPS since we have some dps issues of our own.
Quote from: Bengali on October 11, 2005, 07:00:15 PM
Necros get a poison debuff and their DoTs still have a mod. Druids have a fire debuff and their fire DoTs still have a mod. The point of being a debuffing class is that you have a way to help everyone's spells (including your own) land much better, so it doesn't bother me if you can debuff and have a DoT with a mod on it. Plus, all mods don't have to be the same. SK poison DoTs have a -100 mod, perhaps because they can't debuff poison the way that necros can, who have a -50 mod on their poison DoTs.
Stayed away from mentioning the other classes since Shaman are one of our Parent classes otherwise would have brought up the other hybrids - rangers/Sks dots both have res mods.
If Shaman are up in arms over the resist mods on DoTs of other classes then we may have a shot at them. If not i doubt we will ever see them on ours because that "would" cause an uproar from Shamans i think. (Remembering the big Stink over IoS.....a quest/parchment level 61 spell became a shaman lvl 49 spell after a few weeks of whining, was not happy about that)
To keep us in line with the Shaman i can see a Gimped version of Malo being added before they modify existing DoTs with a res mod, unless they change shaman dots in the process.
Lots of important issues listed already, but if there is still room: keep pet focus when zoning.
Probably not an item for the top 10 list because it has more to do with expansions: Itemization. At the moment we have a big problem getting the most important foci not to mention all foci we could use. There should be a lot more beastlord usable stuff out there that has foci we can and do use.
Haste was mentioned already as well as clicking off pet buffs, a group Alladnu would be very nice (only use IOS around 5% of the time so i dont care). Dots are pretty much useless at the moment, either they dont land or fights are too short to use them so most of the time i dont even mem them anymore, with a little resist modifier that could change though. AE-Ramp is a big issue because it makes having a pet out on raids sometimes just useless, it should be handled like enrage so that special rampaging (like Ture for example) still hits.
It would be a very nice touch to our raid-usability if we get endurance regen added to our SA and Paragon line, both times around the same as mana so that we can actually bring something usefull to a raid.
Dumm.. that's a good idea re: special ae ramp.
Make it such that pets are immune except for named mobs ae ramp?
Dunno how difficult this would be to implement tho.
Just noticed in todays patch message:
- The ATK bonuses for Ward of the Hunter, Howl of the Predator, and Strength of the Hunter have been replaced with Double attack bonuses.
Its nice that rangers get an increase to their utility, but why can't they then make Fero and SV a DA mod bonus? Or give our buffs some bonus as to why a player would want them. In all my time of raiding i've only ever been asked for SV once because we didn't have any Pally's that raid.
Still would like maybe a FO7 type spell with a small over-stat cap maybe to 400 where shamans Str and Dex are to 450. Group haste that lasts mre than 23mins would be lovely. I've resorted to picking up the haste potions you get in DoDh.
Tast you said before that Pet LoH was bugged hence seeing crits only landing for 14k. Is this still the case? Because i'm getting tired of only healing my pet for a base of 7k on raids since I'm fairly sure its not critting anywhere near as often as well. And definitely make it so we can click of pet buffs, its a damn nuisance when some druid DS's my pet when we're doing a target that you're not allowed to have a DS on.
Sorry for the rant.
Think about it for a bit. Attack bonuses stack. Only the highest DA bonus is going to work. Having DA in too many places is self-defeating because only the best one works.
SV just gained utility because it now has the HIGHEST attack value in the line. Howl stacks with it, so the DA bonus can be had also, without hunter. This is one of those cases where a change elsewhere increases OUR utility.
Maximum possible attack values just went down 280 for rangers and 90 for the rest of us, replaced by 50% DA for rangers and 27% DA for others.
Hunter and SV will still not stack.
On a completely unrelated topic, i think they should make invigor and acumen an endurance regen :p
But seriously I do hehe.
It would make the first not have no effect whatsoever and it would make the second actually worth casting and give us some much needed utility to boot. If acumen gave end regen and they added a modest recast timer, there might actually be a reason to have more than 1 beastlord on a raid.
But there's no longer any point to using Hunter since Howl of the Predator has a larger DA bonus. Howl DOES stack with SV. Some rangers are going to be pretty upset about that fact, I betcha.
You may be right, but I'm not sure we can definitively say that they don't stack if the bonuses are in different slots. Increased crit chance doesn't work that way, for example. As far as I know this expansion is the only time we've been able to have two effects that increased double attack on at the same time that were in *different* slots. Sure Ferocity V overwrote Ferocity III, but they both added double attack in the same slot.
Moreover, that would mean that Fists of Wu (monk disc) does nothing for anyone who already has a Ferocity item. That has slot 4 increase double attack of 6%, and if your assumption was true then it would have zero effect on anyone with Ferocity II or higher.
We also can't rely on the reports coming in that rangers are seeing a near 100% double attack rate even with no ferocity item, because they are using their self buff which increases double attack by 50%, and they already have a pretty high double attack rate to start with. If they had a 70% double attack rate, then increasing that by 50% would take them over 100% by itself. Ironically, it seems that beastlords and bards are going to be the best test subjects for this, as our double attack rates are low enough so that neither Predator nor Hunter will max us by themselves, so it should be easier to tell whether the two effects are stacking.
According to the rangers in our guild, they both stack and the percentage given stacks. Meaning SoH + Howl = 50% increase to double atk rate Meaning that I will not be using SV anymore.
According to Lucy:
SoH stacks with Pred, but neither stack with Ward of the Hunter.
SoH does NOT stack with ferocity items, or ferocity tribute.
SoH also does not stack with Tier 1 or 2 bard OoW breastplate's click effects. Clicky does cancel out SoH.
Pred stacks with just about everything still, except for: Rog L57 disc, Berz L70 disc, and Dance of Blades (Bard AA).
Discs cancel pred, but Dance of Blades does not.
Fists of Wu seems to add nothing with any of the ranger buffs (pred, SoH, Ward).
(As a side note, howl of pred does not stack with spirit of pred)
Two things that I would like (there are more things, but talking about spells right now):
Ferocity to be upgraded somehow. With the recent ranger changes, it is clear that SoE believes that atk is relatively useless, so one of our 70 spells is essentially worthless. I want to see something added to this. Monks already have DA (and now rangers), rogues have accuracy, enchanters have crits. I dont really want strikethrough...but combat effects might be tasty.
The second one goes hand in hand with the combat effect idea for fero. A self-only buff derived from the shamans panther line (and our own pet line) some sort of 100 pt proc or something with a deaggro, much like Spirit of Flame or Snow. We've got a low amount of high level spells--this could flesh it out.
Though I wouldn't mind group haste, either--or a single target SA...it just seems the above ideas add a bit more 'spice'
Quote from: Nusa on October 12, 2005, 05:09:25 PM
But there's no longer any point to using Hunter since Howl of the Predator has a larger DA bonus. Howl DOES stack with SV. Some rangers are going to be pretty upset about that fact, I betcha.
Skimming the ranger forums, I see my prediction has come true already. Rangers that took the time to parse have concluded that DA effects do NOT stack (other than highest worn DA stacking with highest spell DA stacking with innate skill). We'd already had this conversation concerning worn Ferocity effects in the past, so it's really not a surprise to many. Hunter is nearly worthless in its current state.
I'm expecting an adjustment of some sort soon, so prehaps it's best to wait and see.
Yeah the way the stacking mods are handled causes some issues for the ranger buffs, and for the monk buff that added 6 or so to double attack as I recall. Until they figure out what they are doing with hunter/pred/DA/etc it's very hard to ask for something as the use of what we ask for is questionable.
I guess we just wait and see. Did the ranger corr. have any input into this, or was it just a mistake to load those files in the last patch?
I actually didn't get to talk to grunts about it, so I'm not sure. I do know that they are now changed and tweaked on test(atk and 3% DA on pred, hunter how it used to be). We should have a better idea soon of what sony has in mind and of what we might see for changes.
On test everything was put back to normal for rangers, and a 3% DA mod was put on pred and ward. Has anyone ever shown for certain if DA mods add a straight %, or it they add a % of a %?
Jequec had mentioned a single target SA. I like that idea, but would be much more excited by the idea of an item that has a single target SA clicky, like what enchanters got in LDoN raids. Of course, that leads back to the itemization problem, with only a select few being able to get it. (Granted, that's how some toys are meant to be, available to, and designed for, raiders.)
Fero as a DA mod works as a % increase. That's why bards/beastlords get less out of it overall because our base DA rate is so low.
You know, maybe this isn't a top 10 issue but, just got reminded of it tonight...
I'd like either for my pet no longer to grow when shamans cast group shrink, or for the only shrink to hit them to be tiny companion or something. It really bugs the snot out of me when I get steath "shrunk" and look to see my pet is now the size of a Volkswagon.
I envy iksar beastlords with their small pets, though the proc bug is really gimp I have discovered. Made an iksar bst as my alt. She's all cute and scaley and stuff. 8-)
aye shiera... god.. I once lit into a shammy over it bcs I'd asked politely several times for him to not do it. Bunnier decided to start spamming his sassinfrassin shrinky orb.
This has come up before and I'm honestly not sure if it's something they want to mess with. It's one of those issues that already has some upset people on both sides of it, and will have upset people on both sides if they do tweak it to.
Some are still upset that shrink doesn't work as well as tiny companion even though they've specifically said that shrink is for players and tiny companion is for pets.
I'm definitely willing to bring this up if most people are actually in favor of this. Anyone have some reason(s) why this shouldn't happen if possible?
simple implementation option... make it where "Shrink" does not affect pets, only tiny companion.
I can see where getting the spells to coordinate could be problematic. I guess I've just never understood why the "shrink" spell makes the pet larger =/ We can't continue casting shrink beyond the certain tinyness, why does it have to make the pet larger? Possible way to add in a screech type component or something to the effect to prevent that stacking? something? ;p
I'm not sure, but remember changes like that would hit all pets and shrink. Last I knew some enc/dru/nec would shrink various charmed pets as well. I'm honestly not even sure if this is possible as I haven't come across a case where it has been used recently. One might say just make tiny companion castable on any, but you don't always have a class with it, and if you make it able to target others you run into issues of others determining the size of pets, griefing(to some degree I guess hehe) and other potential issues.
I really don't know though and that's why I'd like to hear what others have to say. We have to keep in mind this doesn't just hit us, or even just standard "pet" classes though, so even if we reach a majority opinion it still might not happen.
Also not quite top 10 worthy but would love for them to give us back a group IoS spell. No doubt most raiders don't need it and IIRC when it first came on line they were the only ones who really had a chance to get it. I cast it on everyone in my regular hunting group and they are all 68-70. My biggest beef with it really is it is a long cast (x6) on top of all the other buffs I am having to do.
Infusion has been on the top 10 list before and it's an issue I'm trying to deal directly with ry on atm. Ideally I'd like to see a 66th(ish) level group IoS that breaks the stat cap a bit. As our spell list for omens was light, and we totally missed out on buff mods/stat cap breakers. If that just doesn't fly though the casting time could definitely use some work on this and focus imo. It's ok to make us buff worse, to make us buff less efficently, but seriously taking minutes to do it is just tedious with little to no balancing coming of it. *shrugs* We'll see.
Also please check out the haste thread I am about to throw up as that is an issue I'd like to address soon as well, but want to see where most people stand before I go further.
I guess I am missing something. Necros, enchanters, and druids all get access to the tiny companion spell. Can't they use that to shrink their charmed pets? I'll have to log on my friend's enchanter tonight and check I guess, but I thought they had no issues using that. Only time I could see the actual shrink spell come into play is if an enchanter were using ndt on their pet or something.
Anyways, I don't think it is a top 10 issue because it only effects a small population of people (pet users with pet affinity grouped with shamans), but it is annoying.
cant they just add a check to shrink spells?
if the pet is smaller than the shrink spell would make it, dont "shrink" (grow) it lol
if (target.getsize > 50)
targetsize = 50
Id imagine this would take all of 10 seconds for a dev
I would like to see group buffs in the beastlord spells that are simular to shaman spells.
Make iklsars warders actually look like they are hitting instead of giving the stare down.
Give the beastys warder more of a chance to dodge (or take the same aa's we have when we summon it)
Give beastlords it self a better dodge mod as can off tank 3/4 as good as monks
Give beastys an actual taunt button not the use of spells
Give us less agro for grouping purposes so tanks dont have a problem holding agro when we slow or debuff
Give us a debuff so we can get slow to land more often
Give us the ability to change warders (like the new troll one as an option) thru aa- not making them more dps.. just changing the apperance of them.
Straighten out the aa's a few- We have to spend 2x more now to keep in line with other classes in dps (one for us one for warder)
Give us over all a bit more dps (my warder out damages me at 70 even though im qvic geared and epic 1.5 and offensive aa's)
Give the snare proc a better chance to land over oll for grouping/soloing purposes
Make beastlords a fun class to play again instead of getting tells "we prefer a real slower or we prefer a real snarer or we perfer real dps" though i have ksed a few full groups in rifts on named mobs when i disc.
Just a few ideas that I have come up with over the years
Quote from: Hoov on November 30, 2005, 02:01:42 PM
Give us over all a bit more dps (my warder out damages me at 70 even though im qvic geared and epic 1.5 and offensive aa's)
Don't know what your doing but if your warder out dps's you, your deffinately not doing something right, at lvl 70 altho my weapons are not the same as yours my warder never out dps's me, unless I just don't plain attack a mob, even when I was full qvic with 1.5 and qvic h2h from Cyno, my warder still never out dps'd me, im 99.9% sure this is not an issue with any other bst.
**EDIT**
And although our dps is maybe still a little low, since the introduction of DoDH, our DPS has risen dramatically if you invest in the new AAs, I think my highest personal parse excluding summon pet/warder is 675 dps on boc in Tacvi, add in warder and summon pet and I broke 800dps, which isnt bad, considering pre DoDH id be lucky to break 600 dps with me and warder.
Its all about learning how to maximise your discs, and utilities available to you, Overall though im completely satisfied as to where our dps is now, compared to where it used to be.
My biggest gripe at the moment is how the shaman group shrink always grows my pet after hitting him with tiny companion, man that is so damn frustrating, as noted earlier, im sure it wouldn't take more than 2 mins to add a line of code to fix that damn annoying bug.
But if you compare that to a good DoD equipped rogue doing 1500 dps or warriors doing juuust a tiny bit less (than me) or the same, depending on circumstances (cold resistant mob, whatever). I really dont think its enough to balance out 5 expansions of crap. I consider it a step in the right direction, though.
Sure its helped, but if they start ignoring our dps concerns for even a short time, we'll be right back where we were .
Thats true, but were a lot more versatile class than just pure dps, we can, and our bst's do, play as ramp tanks, help heal groupS, cure groupS, off tank, shit ive even been ramp healer for tormentors, SoE is never going to make us just a pure DPS class, to me breaking 800dps, and doing utility support that my guild has me do, has certainly kept my interest in the game.
PS. Fix the damn shrink bug!!!
Not sure if this is worth bugging the dev but I think I found a reproduciable crash bug. I've /bugged them but I'd like to post it here in case it's just me.
When I'm in bazaar, I wanted to make more celestial essence (several stacks of solvent and several stacks of Marr) and when I try to make them while I'm in trader mode, EQ crashes. After careful repeated attempts, I noticed the crash seems to occur when you click on combine and it uses up the last of the item(s) from stack. My guess is the trader window couldn't update properly when I use up the last of the stack.
Annoying bug since I got to wait a few minutes before I can re-log and I can't combine tradeskill (any tradeskill or only baking?) while in trader mode.
Beasts are being left behind every other class period.
Dps wise on raids with anguish/DoDh gear, disks running and both pets fighting, we can manage around 7-800 dps if we go flat out and then thats not sustainable for any great length of time, where as other class's are hitting 1500 - 2k+.
The new summoned pet 'Bestial Empathy' will hit in the 200's(sometimes more, usually less) where as the mages summoned pet on the same line hits for 750's - 1500(crits). Why is this difference so great, when a mage out dps's us allready?
The only thing a beastlord is good for on 'end game' raiding is SA(which someone rightfully mentioned earlier can be done by a bot).
Our pets are a joke, even With Dodh focus and buffed to the hilt, they wont last 2 seconds against any raid trash and their dps is dire.
All our spells can be done better by other classes.
Why does the zone ae in Demiplane of Blood block Paragon/Perfection of spirit? Its one of the few things that beastlords are good for and now we can't even do that in the end game. It makes no sence whatsoever when every other class's regen/mana regen spells land fine.
It is fair to say that a guild or a raid could survive fine without us ,lets face it, what do we have to offer(apart from 10 hp/mana regen)?
Unless I overlooked it, I think they skippe dus when they updated all the other classes' Top Ten lists. Last update was back in August.
Sadness. :cry:
I half agree with dark but a few points:
first of all, the mage DoD pet hits 4x harder because it costs 4x as much mana.
second, exceptionally equipped rogues could hit 1500 but 2k is just exaggeration and even 1500 prolly involved a disc at some point.
However, its very true that our class has fallen far behind the "balance" curve -- so seriously that a whole expansion couldn't really fix it. DoD helped a little but theres a LOT more that needs to be done. Essentially currently were below average at everything and good at nothing. The ideal situation would be us being average to slightly above average at (nearly) everything or alternatively, below average at everything and good at SOMETHING! Most likely the first way is the way to go as people who play beastlords vary in style and what they want a lot and there is no consensus as to which particular thing is the right thing to be good at. Some want good dps, some want good tanking, whatever.
Either way we do need roughly across the board "fixes" and a continued, serious, and conscious effort on the part of the devs which is very hard to get.
I mean 3 expansions later, scorpian venom (62 and easy to get (EP) or ~50 plat in the bazaar) is still an upgrade in every fashion from turepta blood (65 and rare GoD rune turn in)!
And theres easily well over a dozen other specific and obvious things i could list that have been ignored for far too long
Most things have already been covered, but yeah the top 10 list didn't get updated. I talked with ky about it already and it should be fixed monday I'd hope. Weren't a lot of changes to it anyway.
We are behind and we do have several really obvious issue that I hope they fix soon. I can understand "balancing" and time it takes to weigh upgrades or major changes, but some of our spell issues are seriously silly and should have been fixed awhile ago. I'm still waiting to see what they do to the higher level healing spells at this point. *shrugs* Soon as I hear something I'll pass it along.
Is there any indication that our ac softcap will get fixed? As far as i know we got nerfed together with monks down to druid level (monks were still higher), however monks received upgrades after that and are now in a pretty good situation whereas we are still down at the druid softcap. It is easy to reach 2k or more ac nowadays but its something that doesnt help us in any way so it would be nice if that got a fix as well.
Healing spells are an obvious problem and it was promised quite a while ago that it will be fixed next patch, several patches later nothing has happened.
There are other issues as well, most important one is that we have absolutely no raid role in which we are the best and therefore most serious raiding guilds limit the number of beastlords they want in the guild to just two which pretty much assures that you allways have an adequate supply of SA. Tied with that problem is of course the other one: we dont have a lobby since our number isnt big at all and even if we do voice our opinions we cant achieve as much as bigger and therefore more vocal class-communities.
I brought up the issue of our nerfed AC softcap and was basically told they had no intention of adjusting bst defense at this time. It seemed pretty odd to me, especially when you realize other classes have seen recent upgrades, monks got "un-nerfed", and we are somehow where we are expected to be still. It is possible, but just doesn't "seem" right. I've followed up and made sure they were clear on what we were saying and asking and that this was directly related to the nerf that hit monk/bst that was removed from monks but remains for bst. No response back on that at this point.
The heals were said to be getting fixed, but it jus didn't happen. I don't know what ry's schedule was like or if something else came up. Either way I've mentioned it and the stacking issues we currently have quite a bit and I plan to keep after it. It becomes really hard to weigh what we should/shouldn't have when we still have obvious bugs that hinder our performance atm.
As for the raid role, yeah it's a pita. There's a chance that adjusting fero will help some, but bst have always been in smaller numbers for raids. Heck I remember raiding before we even had paragon or SA(had purity at the time that was +3mana a tick). 8P
*shrugs* I sometimes honestly wish I could go "uhhh sorry I forgot to mention that" or something because atleast it'd be an answer. Truth is some of these issues that seem so simple and are obviously wrong have lingered for months and months at this point. Please feel free to feedback them in game, heck even bug report the obvious bugs. I'm going to keep bringing some of these issues up on an almost weekly basis and hopefully they'll finally get some attention.
I don't know if it's been said before, but this post here http://www.necrotalk.com/index.php?showtopic=5174 wouldn't be a bad idea to support for ourselves.
It'd allow us to pet pull with a green pet and then switch it with a real pet, so we can kill what we can split faster(if that was written in english, it'd be easier to understand, sorry).
Both the mage and necro corrs have recently changed. I'm actually in the process of talking with both of them now in an attempt to get a mini-pet list of sorts going. Some of the issues we have vary from class to class because of how we function, but several issues are just generic "pet" issues that could use some attention. Not sure yet how we'll work it or if it'll even work, but it's worth a shot. 8P
Suspend used to work as a switch earlier on, i remember using the switch in elementals still. It got "fixed" some time later and i didnt like that, but since it is not that long ago i dont think they wanna change it back later on.
My point about dps is this..
a paly/sk with sim aa and gear example epic 1.5...
will out damage us EASILY.. if we are a supporting dps role why would this happen?
I have seen warriors out damage me and that is sad...
we are a dps class and we are the futherest behind all in dps..
zerkers/rouges lead the pack easily
monks/palys/sk/ranger/bards next
warriors next
beastlords are lass in dps roles.. seams we should at least be at rangers sk/paly ect area..
this is just average from what we have on raids and our over all dps in my guild (per class).. average beastys on raid 5-7.. average warriors same.. average palys/sk like 3 each.. average monks like 3... rangers we have like 4.. bards 2.. zerkers 1.... and rouges easily 6....
this is just an average of nightly raids.. i know some spots will change but i did a month of raiding and beastys never moved from last place..
beastys are a supporting class and we are in need of a big change.. we need dps to help us out.. spirts of dps dont help.. we need to have an average dps output of 250ish jump .. pets will need atleast 2x more dps.. with more of a dodge mod added..
raiding at upper tier sucks for beastys .. guilds only require 1 beastys... and when you have 6-10 on every nite fighting for the spots it becomes tiresome.. and i have seen a lot leave eq to wow and to more extent quit all together..
if our best buff acted like shamy buffs (added proc rate for example) this would help us get spots and feel wanted in raids..
sony is more worried about the shrinkage in the people in eq so they release the next expantion.. and next to fatten the pockets... all awile not worried about fixing what is wrong.. if they worried about what was wrong more than fixing crappy little piddley stuff this game prob would be fun again..
more people leave the game bc it is starting to become more and more unballanced.. i mean when a mage can out dps most of a goup with one pet this is over powering...
now mages/necros/zerkers/wizys get in groups fast bc of the dps (on average)
only way we can get in a group is if there is no others slower avaliable (enchanter or shamy and some times bard/necro) or if we know the area better or we have friends that just love us..
lets face it we cannot really dps our selves into a group.. our dots are a joke with a really big taunt.. and takes up too much manna to boot.. mostly resisted so sucks.. our nukes are a joke.. even the healing classes get a better nuke.. heck i know sk/palys get one better than us..
beastys needs a new ability (like fd maby for pulling) this would help us out.. (i know the damn green pet trick and i use it so no need to post about it here) but being able to fd when things go bad to save a group can help tons... not saying we need that exactly.. but you can see how that has the advantages.. we only have our paragon and our sa/sv and a partly resisted 65% slow..
ok im off to see how much better other classes get with the update and yet to hear the roar of beastys..
keep your slows at arms and pet on taunt and maby we can beat that orc pawn..
Quote from: Hoov on December 08, 2005, 02:29:31 AM
My point about dps is this..
a paly/sk with sim aa and gear example epic 1.5...
will out damage us EASILY.. if we are a supporting dps role why would this happen?
I have seen warriors out damage me and that is sad...
In my experience, pallies and SKs don't out-DPS us, even with big slays against undead and whatnot. Warriors sometimes do, but only when I'm slacking or fighting something where I can't use the new pet (e.g., AE ramp targets). Othewise we seem about the same when doing normal, non-burst DPS.
Quotewe are a dps class and we are the futherest behind all in dps..
zerkers/rouges lead the pack easily
monks/palys/sk/ranger/bards next
warriors next
beastlords are lass in dps roles.. seams we should at least be at rangers sk/paly ect area..
I can't recall the last time I was *ever* out-DPS'd by a bard. Ever. Rangers definately do more than us.
Quotebeastys are a supporting class and we are in need of a big change.. we need dps to help us out.. spirts of dps dont help.. we need to have an average dps output of 250ish jump .. pets will need atleast 2x more dps.. with more of a dodge mod added..
I just did a recent parse and with just self buffs and no pet, was doing 246 DPS over the course of two hours. With full raid buffs, I can easily hit 500-550'ish. Now you want to add 250 on top of that? We'd be higher than rangers and monks, and running with the low/mid-DPS rogues.
As for the pet comment, I agree completely. We are the master of beasts, but our beast companion is rapidly falling behind us on the progression curve. I believe if they revamped the pet focus effects, they could easily achieve this.
Quoteraiding at upper tier sucks for beastys .. guilds only require 1 beastys... and when you have 6-10 on every nite fighting for the spots it becomes tiresome.. and i have seen a lot leave eq to wow and to more extent quit all together..
You are confusing two issues, our need and over-recruiting. If you've got six or ten beastlords at ever raid, perhaps it's time to let a few go, or avoid adding more when some leave? There's more to running a guild than inviting everyone on the /who list in PoK.
Quoteif our best buff acted like shamy buffs (added proc rate for example) this would help us get spots and feel wanted in raids..
Change level 70 fero to have over-cap +20 accuracy and +20% combat effects.
Quotemore people leave the game bc it is starting to become more and more unballanced.. i mean when a mage can out dps most of a goup with one pet this is over powering...
Read the mage forums some time. They are still lacking relative to other casters.
Quotenow mages/necros/zerkers/wizys get in groups fast bc of the dps (on average)
only way we can get in a group is if there is no others slower avaliable (enchanter or shamy and some times bard/necro) or if we know the area better or we have friends that just love us..
lets face it we cannot really dps our selves into a group.. our dots are a joke with a really big taunt.. and takes up too much manna to boot.. mostly resisted so sucks.. our nukes are a joke.. even the healing classes get a better nuke.. heck i know sk/palys get one better than us..
I generally get groups as DPS first, slower second. Many times I have been invited to groups that didnt' realize our slow is as powerful as it is. One guy, recently, though it was only 20%; no idea where that came from.
Quotebeastys needs a new ability (like fd maby for pulling) this would help us out.. (i know the damn green pet trick and i use it so no need to post about it here) but being able to fd when things go bad to save a group can help tons... not saying we need that exactly.. but you can see how that has the advantages.. we only have our paragon and our sa/sv and a partly resisted 65% slow..
Absolutely no reason for FD. Sure, you may be able to drag corpses once the area is safe, but what have you really gained? Travel is so easy now days that it's just a matter of clicking a book or running through the guild hall portal and you're almost at your destination. If it's *really* bad, you can summon and run back. As for pulling, you've already gien plenty of reason why we don't need any other tools to do it.
boy you did not get any thing i was saying..
Just because someone disagrees doesnt mean they didnt understand.
hoov.. last night we did rikkukin again.
On rikky, we have one person whose designated job is to call out the direction that the AEs are coming. They asked me to do this like once, since I liked playing with the voice commands a bit. Welp, I've been in that role ever since. A monk parsed it last night. I was in the top 5 for dps, passed by only one ranger, who has his 2.0.
Since I run those hotkeys, I do not nuke & I think I cast the DoD pet spell about 3 times total in that fight.
You know what that says to me?
Our dps ain't hurting that incredibly much.
Quote from: Oiingo on December 08, 2005, 04:42:39 AM
Quote
I generally get groups as DPS first, slower second. Many times I have been invited to groups that didnt' realize our slow is as powerful as it is. One guy, recently, though it was only 20%; no idea where that came from.
Just a guess but the guy probably is not that old of a player and was told how much our slow does after mitigation and took that as how much we can slow by.
Just thought I'd pipe in with issues at the top of my list (Tacvi raiding guild):
1) Raid utility. Boy would it be nice to be appreciated on a raid outside of buffing SA. A melee-useful buff would be nice, but a niche skill would be even better (ie if BL were the absolute best at something/anything - lots of room for creativity here). If you're thinking MGB Perfection, forget it - it's so insignificant that it's rarely ever used on our raids, I can only remember 1 time in 6 months of raiding when raid leader called for it.
2) Make /pet hold continue to hold pet after mob is dead. Currently, I hit /pet hold about 500 times an hour while raiding. After every mob /pet hold. Just in case /pet hold. Oh did i forget to /pet hold?? Better make sure. One loose pet and raid could wipe = generic fear of pet classes and a worn out /pet hold key. Make /pet hold a toggle - while its on, its always on until you log/die. I'm really surprised this isn't near the top of everyone's list.
3) DPS. Ok I feel a little greedy asking for this after the huge boost we just got. But we still have a ways to go if we're supposed to be a dps class. Seems the biggest issue here is pet scalability. There's enough effects/weapons to boost my dps, but Toto is lagging badly. My feeling is if we're going to suffer through the numerous no-pet targets, our dps should be superior when pet is allowed.
4) Defense. Not a priority like the other 3 but I used to love being able to tank from time to time. Somewhere along the line my tanking abilities went AWOL. Monks are HUGELY better tanks than us, which i just dont get (they're better dps and provide key raid utiliy as well). Basically, this beef is only on here because we don't accel at offense or raid utility either.
In a nutshell, I'd like to see the class excel somewhere (dps or raid utility), or be decent all over (decent dps, decent utilty, decent defense). Right now we have decent dps, minimal raid utility, and minimal defense. I'm pretty confident in saying we're the least desirable raid class (tho we're good for groups).
Quote from: Pakratz on December 28, 2005, 07:02:19 AM
2) Make /pet hold continue to hold pet after mob is dead. Currently, I hit /pet hold about 500 times an hour while raiding. After every mob /pet hold. Just in case /pet hold. Oh did i forget to /pet hold?? Better make sure. One loose pet and raid could wipe = generic fear of pet classes and a worn out /pet hold key. Make /pet hold a toggle - while its on, its always on until you log/die. I'm really surprised this isn't near the top of everyone's list.
/chuckle... but, but, but.. what would I do with my reflexive /hold hotkey?
aye.. a true toggle would be wonderful... but that would be a step towards making the pets "automatic". And devs don't want em being "automatic", wanting us to have to exert a lil effort to control the pet.
like its really an effort to hit '9' every other second? :evil:
/shrug.. how many leashing issues did you have until you trained that reflex?
once we've trained the reflex, we're good, but I know I had some issues for a bit until I got it trained.
Hehe I did my "training" with a /pet go away hot key instead of hold back in the day lol. Whenever I wasn't positive the pet wasn't about to do something stupid it got blown up lol. Non-aggro pets, non-mez breaking pets, and many other changes later the pet hold thing is much more forgiving and natural for me. 8P
I started like a week after luclin and i honestly dont remember pets ever aggro or breaking mezz. Was this a necro/mage thing (pre-luclin) or is my memory just going? :p
I do remember "Summon Warder" though heh -- Worst system *ever* :evil:
I would say your memory is either shot or you were very lucky. Warder breaking mezz racked me up a fairly decent chanter kill rate. :evil: Also wiped my group (wasn't raiding a lot at that time) quite a few times from the pet running off and pulling for us. Matter of fact it got reflexive for me to keep an eye on pet's health and haul ass to ZO if it started to mysteriously drop.
I like packrats idea on pet hold.
WIth more and more 2 handers out there i would like to see that aa still :P
Oiingo,
I saw that you are around 243 dps alone/self buffed but also said u can get to 500-550 range raid buffed. was that also alone? If so I am assuming your receiving shammy assistance right? Not a flame by any means....just an inquiry.
I have to say the dps we put out is disturbing to me. My guild parces our AMV fights everytime we kill him and constently our monks put out around 1k dps im prity much geard the same as our monks weps aa and gear wise i go all out on dps and the best i have ever done is fregin 650 (this is total my dps/warder dps/wolf pet dps) dont get me wrong tho 650 isent a bad number but i realy wish we could push out a lot more then this. Yes i know we shouldent be out dpsing monks but would realy like to see us at leasts come some what close to right behind them. Maybe adding triple attack to our aa's or skills would help on this just a thought.
and how do you parse on Hanvar?
a run or 2 ago, Rar got top damage & dps, by a significant margin.
Its situational, in a lot of respects... we will often outdps a lot of other classes when the burn runs longer. Rogues have their discs refresh a lot faster than we do & have more options for their discs (I don't know how many they have, but I do know they've got several). We at least have our regular discs, BA (i know it ain't as effective as regular disc, but its an add'l), and growl. I've started chaining it, since I finally got unlazy & built a hotkey to cast growl & assist the pet once it allows me to. (occasionally run into issues where I hit my targeting key & then end up on the tank when /assist kicks in, but /shrug ;p)
Our dps situation ain't as dire as it may look. We're designed to be behind monks & rogues. How are you comparing to the rangers, whom we are sorta designed to be on level with? We get a triple attack ability... its called epic clicky on the pet... that and the pet itself are our compensation for not having innate DA. Granted, its been very poor compensation, and not really been sufficient for a while... but its starting to get a lil better, with spire servant greatly enhancing pet's survivability (had one die to ae ramp so fast last night that I barely was able to notice it happening. I ain't in DP yet, so not seen the belt yet on my own screen, unlinked from a linkbot ;p), so things are starting to get better. And the lil hints that the coupla peeps in beta have dropped make things sound a lil better too. I wouldn't want a triple attack aa.... this would give the devs the illusion that they are helping us more, when the return on such an AA would be minimal. Its not that major a return for the classes that have it as it is.
We and or i dont ever parce hanvar because of the fact that he dose the ae stun and the slow ae just isent a very good parce when one half the guild is slowed and other half is just standing their stuned wouldent get a far number for how the dps was for anyclass. I will try and do a few more parces on fights that can show a better picture of the class's and their dps numbers because the strat we use for AMV makes it inpossable to parce them during this fight.
You make a few good points tho, alltho i went back over some old parces of diffrent fights and it seems our rangers avrige 750-800 dps so if we are suposed to be on par with them maybe im doing something wrong lol ill try and get some more info and parces to try and get a better picture tho
bah damn sig will i ever fix you !!!
Normally we're behind rangers on most fights, there are situations however where we can out dps them. Hanvar of course is a mob where beastlords excel because our BE pet isnt effected by the slow and stun and our nukes do much better than many other classes (not better than rangers of course).
If you want to parse real burst dps try KtH (after the pet phase). It is a very short fight (normally a bit over a minute for us) so it favors max burst dps. AMV is actually not a good parse mob since you have those adds around.
An intersting tidbit about DPS:
http://www.goberserker.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1923&page=3&pp=20
Here is the cliff notes version according to zerker class correspondent who was quoting a dev:
- when able to BS rogue dps will trump all
- burst dps will be WIZ
- Zerker dps will come out on top when these 2 conditions are not met
Which I think is a good mix. The question for us tho is where do BST fit in? Personally I think that if BSTs are given the same base dmg (but with monk weapons) as warriors we will be balanced on the dps issue. Keep in mind this is only off our melee. Pet, procs, spells will all go ontop of this base dps. That way we are DPS+ added bonus (buffs, mana regen, pet etc...).
As I understand it now our dps < warrior dps. If I am wrong please correct me.
Thanks.
"As I understand it now our dps < warrior dps. If I am wrong please correct me."
Our dps is all over the place and that is the problem. In the life of my beastlord I've out dps'd rogues, and been out dps'd by paladins. I've topped charts on some mobs and gone months without being top 20(...out of 54.....with 12 clerics!!!). lol
The real problem with this is that we constantly have individual parts of our dps "balanced", but our total package hasn't once been "balanced" that I can recall. For instance, our spells increases and pet increases are "balanced" around what others get. Our mana ratios, dps, refresh, cast times, etc are all "balanced". Our weapons are all "balanced" around what others have. This is an issue because for most of a beastlords life the "best" weapon in the game isn't even our best weapon. The same holds for just about everything else a beastlord can do. Our heals are "balanced", our slow is "balanced", blah bleh blah.
I know it's hard for a lot of people to see sometimes and I myself didn't even see some of the finer points until I spent literally days parsing out various things. Our pet dps stays balanced and scales poorly because that's the direction the game goes. Our melee dps goes up a lot because ratios have gone in that direction. Proc dps though hasn't changed a lot and stagnated for awhile. This caused a lot of issues with our dps because to be honest I don't think many knew where I dps was because many beastlords would be equipped differently than many would expect(epic OH, ED over shinai, tacvi mace a downgrade for awhile, etc).
Basically what it comes down to is that at some points we make tradeoffs when no other class does. A monk "upgrading" to a shinai gains a lot of ratio damage and proc dps stays about the same. Meanwhile, a beastlord "upgrading" to a shinai sees melee dps go up, proc dps go down and might even see an overall downgrade in dps.
Where a beastlord falls is very specific to that beastlord and their situation. I wish we had an overall place we fell or a place we knew we should be at and aim for in our discussions. Unfortunatly, the way the class works and the game progresses it is almost impossible to keep us in any one spot without a lot of extra attention. In a game with so many classes, so many expansions, etc it just isn't likely to happen. As such we have fluxuated a ton in our dps ranking and likely always will. If things were done so that the shifts were smaller then even though we saw our dps numbers fluxuate quite a bit, we could still say in the same relative place. That is to say even though we might be +/- 50dps, if we are still under X and still above Y our position atleast remains consistant even if our position within that rank varies by a decent margin. *shrugs*
PS sorry for the long(ish) answer to a simple question. I'm in a ranty mood atm. 8(
I guess this is really a stupid question, but, where is our current top ten list? I don't see it in this thread, and, while I do see one in the 7/4 thread, it doesn't look to have been edited since its initial post.
http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=beastlordbalance&message.id=1049
has the offical thread on the sony boards.
After the last re-vamp the list hasn't had many changes. The list went down to being updated every month instead of every two weeks. With the expansion coming I expect atleast one or two changes in march.
What do you think about my idea with a base dmg for a bst is the same with a warrior? In other words if warriors and bsts both have a 17/20 weapon in each hand they will do about the same dmg purely from swings. Also the same with 2handed weaopns a lets say 50/50 weapon in the hands of a warrior will do the same dps a bst with a 50/50 staff.
From there aa's, gear selection and play style (casting lots of DD's, dots versus doing melee buffs: fero, leopard etc) will determine dps.
The problem with that like I mentioned is that every other aspect of DPS changes. If for instance a bst and war did same dmg with same weapons back at old 60, then bst would be doing almost 2X warrior dps. If you made it even now, then beastlords would be doing maybe 1.25X or whatever(depends a ton). Melee scales better than pets, and our spells aren't major upgrades like what pure casters see.
In some cases it'd put beastlord ahead by a bit, in others it'd put them incredibly far ahead.
Truth is the tools are already in place to keep beastlord dps inline, but it takes more time and often gets overlooked. We get AAs, spells, gear, focus, etc. However, it seems like each of those gets "balanced" individually and the bigger overall picture gets lost. It's part of the price we pay for being diverse and more unique. *shrugs*
Right, dps scales better thats kind of the idea that I built my suggestion around. Pets are kind of a "one size fits all" dps. In other words similar focus, same level pet a 70 bst from a time guild will do the same dps as a Anguish/Demiplane bst (with the same pet aa's). Furthermore, the added DPS will make us more d esired in group and add more to a raid. Our DPS is not like a rogue's but if we can do decent DPS, buff and toss out the occasional heal it makes our desirability in raids higher.
Where the DPS of one bst versus another bst will differ is in gear and play style. Which in my opinion is a good way to add "flavor" (somewhat uniquness) to the bst class.
One final thing. If BSTS where more like berserkers in the sense that our DPS really comes from our AA's I think that would be agreeable. In other words a good chunk of our DPS will come from BST specific AA's, some of it situational and some of it useful all the time. The downside to this logic is that SOE has proven to be uncreative with AA's at times and just throws 1/2 arse stuff out there (Feral Swipe for example). On this note I think we are essentially saying the same thing with a slighty different spin:
"Truth is the tools are already in place to keep beastlord dps inline, but it takes more time and often gets overlooked. We get AAs, spells, gear, focus, etc. However, it seems like each of those gets "balanced" individually and the bigger overall picture gets lost. It's part of the price we pay for being diverse and more unique."
I just don't understand how hard it can be to make pets scalable. Tie it to the focus items Duh! This equates to tieing melee dps to weapons as it is now. It really irks me to finally get that Qvic focus and see it add.....2 dps to pet. The weapons ugprade in Qvic added about 25 dps to me and 50 dps to monks/rogues/berzerkers/rangers. Zuluqua's cloak focus (which cost me 3.5 weeks of dkp to get) added another..... 2 dps. Monks/rogues/zerkers/rangers got another 50 dps. Sadly, I expect anguish focus to add 2 dps too.
Seems like a no-brainer to me to make each focus upgrade add 15-20 dps instead of 2. If I'm doing 300 dps via melee/spells, my pet should be doing more than 100 (+40 or so for procs). Thats the #1 reason all the other melee classes have surpassed us. I'm ok having to put in the extra time/effort to get 2 items instead of 1, but for god's sake after I've put in the time, at least make the dps even again.
I totally love the idea of Bsts of each race being able to either select a warder of their choosing,
or to choose a new warder graphic according to race. That would really make it fun again!
It would be awesome if that can somehow be like how our toons can change face/fur
ect and take effect once you zone.
I would definately change my pet into a leopard model, or even that bengal tiger! :)
That would spice things up and the look also for the whole class. I love my tigger
but would be nice for a change once in a while.
The problem with that is that our warders are in the general model database and they try to keep that as small as possible since clients have to have that up in every zone. If it would work like the mages monster summoning we could choose one of the available skins in the zone we are currently in but that would mean we change the appearance of our pet every time we zone.
I just would like to see some of the older models updated, as far as pets go. For example, I am still pretty happy with my tiger and I think the graphic has stood up well to time, but I feel sorry for Ogres who are stuck with the old bear model. Always thought the way its lip hung out was ugly. It's time that got a revamp (should look like the ones in PoStorms imo) and it is something shaman might even back us up on.
Keep in mind when I say update I do not mean change the species of. If I woke up and Fluffy was one of those Xakra Silkworms I'd probably have to switch back over to my ranger...and I haven't touched her since PoP.
I think that the Trushar's Mending spell is still a issue, 4 expansions after GoD. SoE really screwed us here imo. They gave us a group version of ios, then made it a group heal?, then made it a single target crap heal that is outhealed by a lower level heal spell: Chloroblast.
I think there is room for a nice spell bst spell. Give us back group IOS, that would be fabolous. Furthermore if they could make group IOS add DR/PR (since we already get shadoo/jacinth). This would make this spell great and would not overpower us as the effect is already something we have. It just makes the process of buffing less painful.
What ya'll think?
I don't even remember the last time I had a reason to cast IoS... unless they change it so it buffs stats over the cap, it'd just be changing it from a pointless spell to another pointless spell. Trushar's Mending "does" need changed, but seeing as it's a spell mainly just raiding bst have access to, a spell that wouldn't benefit raiding bst doesn't make sense. I'd rather they add group IoS seperately as a new lower level spell that's vender sold, as that would make it more accessible to those that would actually benefit from it.
If they left the healing part of Trushar's as it is though, but added to the spell... that would make it at least useful. Add something similarly themed like.. say.. a weak curse cure. Or just completely change it to like a small but very effecient moderate duration HoT.
This is one of the problems that comes with having a game like EQ. Lots of changes get tied together and at any given point in time people will only see the final result.
When trushar's was IoS beastlords fell behind rangers in healing for the first time ever. Then with omens coming beastlords new heal was going to be further behind because we didn't get an upgrade in GoD. When Trushar's got turned into a heal then our healing got boosted there, returned to being even with rangers and our omens heal improved so that we had better healing there as well. However, they then went back and re-did other heals, including chloro, and that skewed where somethings stand today.
The decision to change the heal was the right one at the time, especially considering who had access to the spell. However, other changes since have caused other issues. The 65/67 heals do need to be tweaked and should have been awhile ago. Other things kept coming up though and prevented that from happening. Hopefully they will be fixed and it's something that they are aware of. One thing we do have to keep in mind with situations like this though is order of events. It's not like trushar's came into the game as a downgrade nor did muada.
I understand there was some horse trading for our heal spells when they were creating OoW heals, I still miss group IOS. At this point there probably isn't much to be gained arguing about it. However, they did short us a spell or two in OoW, we got fewer than any other caster or hybrid.
Group Alladnu might be a good addition....
"but seeing as it's a spell mainly just raiding bst have access to, a spell that wouldn't benefit raiding bst doesn't make sense."
Actually this was changed a few months ago; many of the 65 GoD spells are now researchable, and at least on the server I'm on is readily available in the bazaar, fairly reasonable price too :) yeah they're tradeable. the ancient GoD spell is the only one I'm aware of that's not researchable now.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/recipe.html?recipe=7319
Yes, it would be nice, being SOE agreed this spell was out of whack, long, long ago, to actually update it, change it, or something to make it of some use.
I'm aware how we came to this point. But the fact remains that our 65 and 67 heals have been downgrades to chloroblast for over a year now. That fact by itself is just as inexcusable as if they had been created unbalanced.
I know you are aware and I do think it's been way too long. However, there are a lot of people that don't know the order of things. Just one of those things that happens with an evolving game like EQ. *shrugs*
Hey,
About the warder models - is there any chance they'll be changed? It sounds like extra work that would translate to a cost that I'm certain isn't going to be negligable. However, if trolls could have crazy poison frogs or snakes, and ogres could have gorillas, and vah shir could have ... whatever moon beasts there are (underbulks? stonegrabbers? greyhoppers but bigger, like 1/2 a trakanosaur? yeah, that's the one)... and iksars could have panthers or spiders ...
that would be awesome
.
Know what else? It's great that there's a pet at 46, and I think I'll really enjoy getting a pet every two levels - 54, 56, 58, 60, 62 ... but what about 51-54? Those early 50's are the first time it feels like work to gain experience. As an older player (been on since 2000), I actually have an emotional issue with having to go through those levels again, even if they are "smoothed" out - I remember playing 4-5 hours a night and having the reward be 1 yellow if you were able to get a group. So...make it easier on us, bump the 54 pet down - or ideally, give us a middleground pet (just split the difference between the old 49 and 54 and put it at 52)? Please?
One last thing - can we get our haste line extended down? Instead of nothing up till ... whatever level ... can we start maybe with a 10% haste spell around level 25, then maybe 15% at 35 and 20% at 43, 25% at 49 and 30% at 55? Or something like that? I should probably look at the numbers to make it scale the way it should, but it's not like me suggesting it and providing a perfect example of implementation will make it more likely to see this change made. :-P My thinking is that of all the beastlord's spell-abilities, most stat buffs are the same as that of all other hybrids - moderately useful solo, totally useless while grouped - except the beast crack line is unique and nice, and the nukes we get are also tailored for us and us alone, and so ... why is haste the one hold-out? Maybe I'm not making my analogy clear enough. We get slow spells all through the game (20-70). We get stat buffs. We also have unique spell lines that bring a lot to the class and also give us confidence that the devs love us the way they should. Can't we get haste in parallel with all this other stuff?
I hope this post is at least somewhat useful~
Firiona.Goom
(fennin.faza)
I know they told us to stop bothering them with our "logic", but you think it'd be a good idea to make at least a skeleton top 10? Since SS did resolve several issues, and bring up several new ones (and continue several old ones :/)
Something like:
issue 1: Savage Ferocity - low high end gains from attack, too expensive. accuracy mod suggested
issue 2: aura of spirit - much smaller gains than paragon, compared to pools. trivialized by ooc regen. increase duration or reduce recast suggested.
...
I like the idea, even if it's just for 'in-house' use. It gives us something to keep watch on, remind devs when talking w/ them, do parses for, etc,.
Fero - make that an overcap accuracy mod though.
Add:
HASTE!!!
Melee Mitigation
Bring back melee rune for pet.
make fero a groupcast with a accuracy mod or critical melee mod on it
will improve our role in a group and raid for sure
also a grouphaste cant be overpowered
I still need to update this with a few spell lines... but:
http://beastlords.neoclaw.net/docs/bst_spell_level-ranges.html
Remember cures? We get our first one at level 4, before we even get a pet. After PoPower though (63), we just stopped getting new cures. While they'd been around since luclin, PoPower is where curse counters started to get heavier use... starting with Gates they got crazy use. We never get a curse cure though, not even a weaker one.
One of my top issues would be at the least adding a mid-strength version of curse cure, which we should have gotten a long time ago as it is. This will at least let us act in a "ack... group's main curse curer died... well at least I can save a couple people" type role. In my old guild back in PoPower, on fights where disease cures were needed, bst and shm were always used as main curers there, as it doesn't detract as much from the raid's healing power as making clr/dru do it would.
I agree with Rarrum that a curse cure would be a handy and reasonable addition. Rangers got a curse cure in TSS and it has been shown to be useful on raids. Not sure why they would get this and we wouldnt, we're usually side-by-side in cures I thought.
We were, until TSS when we fell way behind /mourn less utility.
Actually, whether we were even or not depends on how you look at it. We get poison cures at the same time as rangers, but we have always gotten disease cures before them. The end result was our having the same spells though.
I admit, I was sorta surprised that rangers got that cure and we didn't. Not surprised enough to start any crusades about it though.
Comments?
1: Savage Ferocity:
Attack at the mid to high end (1250+ atk) sees significantly decreasing gains, such that the benefits of this spell really aren't worth the huge cost anymore. It's a shame because this spell line used to be a great limited but powerful single target buff.
Solution: stacking accuracy mod or other offensive mod (not DA because that would conflict with ranger buffs and its essentially capped for some)
2: Aura of Spirit
Mana and health pools have grown so much faster than the paragon line's upgrades that the spell is no longer noticed by many. In addition, ooc regen has further trivialized the spell by destroying its secondary use as a downtime reducer.
Solution: Increase its duration or reduce the recast.
3: Taste of Blood
Doesn't stack with Unparalleled Voracity or Growl of the Panther. Pet doesn't get kills because it's weak. You usually don't pull fast enough to benefit at all.
Solution: significantly increase duration and damage mod, make it stack.
4: Animals
All animals not on a specific faction before TSS were friendly to beastlords, druids, and rangers. TSS animals are only friendly to druids and rangers.
Solution: add beastlords to tree-hugger faction
5: Haste
Potions of Haste X last longer than celerity and do the same 50% haste. All other hasters have gotten upgrades.
Solution: make celerity's duration scale by level ~(15 mins at level 30 -> 45 minutes at level 75)
6: Cures
Beastlords used to be pretty good at curing. We got the best cure disease spell, but we've never since gotten any kind of upgrade to our cures. Rangers have gotten every single cure they get at a higher level than beastlords get that cure, but with TSS, rangers just got a cure curse spell, pushing them far ahead of where they have always cured.
Solution: Give all druid and shaman hybrids appropriate cure upgrades at appropriate levels.
7: Mitigation
During luclin, monk and beastlord mitigation was reduced. Since then, monk mitigation was returned to its original value. Several other classes have seen mitigation boosts, as well. Beastlords still mitigate like druids.
Solution: Restore beastlord mitigation to its original level.
8: Steeltrap Jaws
This spell is bugged. If your pet has multiple procs and both steeltrap and another proc succeed at a proc check on the same round, only the other proc occurs, but a steeltrap charge is wasted. Also, this spell does not report resists/fades to the user since it's pet based.
Solutions:
Best solution: Ask code to fix the proccing bug and add the ability to report resists/fades of pet based procs and appropriate filters.
Realistic solution: double the charges on steeltrap to make up for bug wasted charges and add a recourse to the pet which does nothing other than last exactly the same duration as the slow
9: Pet Survivability
Pet survivability is a bit better, but its still pretty much a joke to try to use a pet in alot of raid encounters.
Solution: reintroduce mammoth hide guard (or equivalent) for all 3 pet classes, make it stack with spellbreaker's guard.
10: Raid Utility
This is a bit of a Meta-Problem. As problems with many of our core abilities have appeared and increased with with time and inattention, general beastlord raid utility has declined proportionally. Some would prefer that you invent some new utility and give it to us, and while that would be great, it'd probably be sufficient to fix our existing problems.
Solution: If fero, perfection, cures, and mitigation are solved, this will be solved also.
Thx for making that list Hakaaba. I like all of em except the animal thing that doesnt bother me in the slightest. My top list would be more like:
1) Give us something that makes us useful on raids
2) Adjust our tanking to be more like monks and less like druids
3) Make /pet hold a default state rather than a toggle to be hit after every mob. I know this is not a top item with alot of people, but it would overnight take away the fear of having runaway pets on raids. Having to hit /pet hold after every dam mob is like chinese water torture(omg did i forget to hit pet hold, better hit it again). I would pay 25 aas for this, seriously, and make it mandatory for all pet classes in guild.
4) Fero - make it something juicy.
Add:
Raid utility
Pet runes
i like the sound of those. Though raid utility is kinda covered already by the first 9 :p
I had to think of a good synonym for neglect, cause i dont think that'd go over well, i think inattention works :)
Quote from: hakaaba on October 17, 2006, 06:38:03 PM
Realistic solution: double the charges on steeltrap to make up for bug wasted charges and add a recourse to the pet which does nothing other than last exactly the same duration as the slow
I don't think they can make a recourse that does NOTHING, but they could make a useless recourse to the pet like +1 CHA. That way we could see the slow hitting and wearing off. The only thing we would not see from that is weather or not the slow was midigated.
$0.02 from Xik. :)
I like the list, but are these ranked in any particular order? Most lists when you number them gain an assumed priority, and current #4 (animals) seems like it should be lower imo.
Also:
Quote1: Savage Ferocity:
Low high end gains from attack, too expensive.
Solution: stacking accuracy mod or other offensive mod (not DA because that would conflict with ranger buffs)
Note the bolded. I'd change that to "not DA, because even at lvl70 w/ higher Ferocity foci, double attack rates on pure melee classes are at, or almost at 100%." Something along those lines....lvl70 monk w/ Fero6 is at approximately 99% DA.
they could give it in an invigor effect :p
Also, saying we don't want DA cause it would conflict with existing abilities sounds better and shows more thought than saying we don't want it cause its capped for most imo, although thats a very valid reason to not want DA. :)
i figure its best to give them the most options possible especially considering at this point, people would be happy with pretty much any fix to fero.
Honestly theyre in the order i thought of them in. But i do think animals deserves a high spot on the list because:
1) its such an easy fix and
2) its something there is no argument against.
Quote from: hakaaba on October 18, 2006, 04:23:04 PM
they could give it in an invigor effect :p
/shudder
Quote
Also, saying we don't want DA cause it would conflict with existing abilities sounds better and shows more thought than saying we don't want it cause its capped for most imo, although thats a very valid reason to not want DA. :)
I'd include both then, probably. Since regardless of the existing buffs, if they tossed that to us, it'd be just as worthless for us.
Anyways, thanks for the compendium Hak.
Quote from: hakaaba on October 18, 2006, 04:23:04 PM
Also, saying we don't want DA cause it would conflict with existing abilities sounds better and shows more thought than saying we don't want it cause its capped for most imo, although thats a very valid reason to not want DA. :)
Also there are still people who don't have DA capped. I don't think it is capped for most, maybee half. I have no DA mods on me, and only first 3 ranks of DA AA's. Just hit 73 so my skill is now at 15 :).
I do agree, DA would not be a great addition to Fero because of stacking issues, but it would make sence because Ferocity mod on weapons is DA. /shrugs
Quote from: dainfrol on October 18, 2006, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: hakaaba on October 18, 2006, 04:23:04 PM
Also, saying we don't want DA cause it would conflict with existing abilities sounds better and shows more thought than saying we don't want it cause its capped for most imo, although thats a very valid reason to not want DA. :)
Also there are still people who don't have DA capped. I don't think it is capped for most, maybee half. I have no DA mods on me, and only first 3 ranks of DA AA's. Just hit 73 so my skill is now at 15 :).
I do agree, DA would not be a great addition to Fero because of stacking issues, but it would make sence because Ferocity mod on weapons is DA. /shrugs
Aye, beastlords, bards etc, don't have it capped. But, our primary "targets" for Fero have traditionally been primary high dps melee classes (monk, zerker, etc). They now effectively have 100% DA at lvl75. While a DA mod on Fero would still be useful at lower levels/progression points, or for some other classes, this would gimp Fero at the Anguish+ game, which is getting increasingly huge.
By the way, you can see if Steeltrap Jaws is resisted or not at least in groups. You see what your pet is casting but if you do not get the spell landed message its resisted. However resists on steeltrap jaws are not that big an issue, especially if you have rank 2 and higher. The big issue however is the proc counting mechanism as that isn't working at all. At the moment i use steeltrap jaws as main slow in groups, however i cannot use my epic clicky with it anymore because the chance that steeltrap jaws procs is way too low in that case.
Anyway, Haaks post is pretty much spot on and probably should be posted on the SoE forum since i doubt any dev reads the stuff here.
God'Damn Hakaaba that rocked thanks. amen brother well thought out.
also I love the idea of being able to either -- Choose your pet model, or even better (IMO for roleplay purposes -- at certain level's your new pet spell uses a bigger meaner looking model)
in general for all pet classes (like necro's got sorta) = lvl's 1-20 a small harmless lookin model, 20-40 a bigger slightly less harlmess lookin model etc etc
lvl 70+ could have some kinda epic lookin model that would be something I'd love to see.. and I cant see a problem in implementing new models, other then the work it takes to create them.
I know sooner or later we'll get new pet models, everything gets revamped somewhere along the line.. but i'd like to see this sooner not later /sigh
tast? do you want to post it for a bit more authority? otherwise i can do so.
P.S. i love that nobody blinks at the sentence: " Pet doesn't get kills because it's weak." :(
Quote from: hakaaba on October 22, 2006, 04:19:17 PM
tast? do you want to post it for a bit more authority? otherwise i can do so.
P.S. i love that nobody blinks at the sentence: " Pet doesn't get kills because it's weak." :(
Well, try it differently. The new pet is stronger than the others, but how can you guarantee who the heck is gonna get the kill shot? Any proc that demands that the pet get the kill shot is just not gonna proc.
BTW... unscientific, but my 73 pet, with the Qvic boots hits for about 150s. Not half bad as an addition to our base DPS.
funny cause my anguish focused one hits for less than that.
Anguish focused 73 for me hits for 135, with panther hits for 149, so either Qvic focus is bugged, Anguish focus is bugged or your reading zomething wrong.
hokay fine, I'll break out EQC or YALP and get you more accurate numbers from an evening of hunting. Got any preference between the two as to which reports pet DPS better?
:-D Yes, I know, I post a number I see fairly often while hunting, and I did it around peeps who live by the parser :lol: /Smack .... go prove it..... :lol:
Is a multi hour run one night from my normal after raid stomping grounds in Direwind Cliffs OK or does it need to be more scientific?
QuoteBTW... unscientific, but my 73 pet, with the Qvic boots hits for about 150s. Not half bad as an addition to our base DPS.
When you said hits for 150's, did you mean:
1) this is the max hit with Unparralleld Haste
2) max hit with Growl running
3) max hit when in frenzied state from Taste of Blood AA
4) 150 dps total for pet (haste, procs, etc)
5) something else, if so what :-D
Quote from: Nimbin on October 24, 2006, 08:00:27 PM
QuoteBTW... unscientific, but my 73 pet, with the Qvic boots hits for about 150s. Not half bad as an addition to our base DPS.
When you said hits for 150's, did you mean:
1) this is the max hit with Unparralleld Haste
2) max hit with Growl running
3) max hit when in frenzied state from Taste of Blood AA
4) 150 dps total for pet (haste, procs, etc)
5) something else, if so what :-D
Mage aura + old haste?
I am really happy thus far with how our dps has gone....some things I would like to see changed is more spell utility....we lack a big part on raids....back in the pop / god era we were great for utility....also our warder dps still can use a boost...seems soe is only caring about out pet suvivability in my eyes
that's been what we've been primarily asking for honestly Hum.. the pet's been useless in so many raid environments bcs it takes more mana then s/he's worth to keep up (the mana/melee cost to keep up is > the pet's dps output from keeping alive), esp since pet's have 0 raid utility.
I am not looking for utility from our pets I am looking for utility from us....we were back in the day the best utility class in EQ till after GoD.....then it started going down hill quick we are by far the most undered utility class/ hybrid in EQ I believe atm.....SoE needs to wake up to the fact
IMO pets clearly have a negative raid utility in many situations. Aka, they cause more problems (mana spent, small amount of push, time to deal with them) than the benefits they provide (meager dps).
Anytime someone leaves a pet on hold in the corner, this calculation came out negative~
Very good list Hak, thanks. I agree with the raid utility. I feel very useless. With the OOC regen no one cares about Aura. I was curious as to if we could possibly get Aura to last longer/stronger like you said..and maybe add end regen with it? Then we would benifit the whole raid, not just the casters mana and the melee hps...because, the casters benifit from the hp regen too, why cant the melee get end regen as well?
As for pet survivability, Shep follows me around but rarely gets to chew on anything because its just too much wasted time trying to keep him alive. PM is helping, but Im still loosing him about as much as before TSS.
Quote from: Nimbin on October 24, 2006, 08:00:27 PM
QuoteBTW... unscientific, but my 73 pet, with the Qvic boots hits for about 150s. Not half bad as an addition to our base DPS.
When you said hits for 150's, did you mean:
1) this is the max hit with Unparralleld Haste
2) max hit with Growl running
3) max hit when in frenzied state from Taste of Blood AA
4) 150 dps total for pet (haste, procs, etc)
5) something else, if so what :-D
It's a number I see pretty often when hunting the undead camps in Direwind after a raid. Usual setup in casual groups is Unparaleled Voracity, Epic, Irionu, Fetter, Panther
NVM I defered to the parser gurus and actually went and read my logs. /sigh
/Bonk .... I know why I see 150 as a hit so often ROFL it's what my epic Savage Blessing Strike procs for ..... Duh! No wonder I see it so much... he procs a Lot
Fine...there are no shortcuts. I'll have to go and parse him during a whole evening hunting there to see what the average hit REALLY is. I'm 74 now, so they're mostly DB cons. Dunno if that affects how hard my pet hits em.
Quote from: Timberghost on October 26, 2006, 03:56:21 PM
I'm 74 now, so they're mostly DB cons. Dunno if that affects how hard my pet hits em.
Your level has nothing to do w/ anything, pet related (except which pet you use).
Max hit won't change, except against a mob who has a vie type effect on it (don't think this exists, but /shrug), or if there were a mob who had shielding, or if the mob is immune to a certain type of damage (a la Cragbeast Queen).
What your pet will hit for in a given round, is a function of mob AC, attack, damage mods (like mage aura, don spell, damage mod on higher lvl hastes), relative level, and at low levels, weapons that they might have been given. I'm not even positive on relative level...that might just affect how often the pet will hit.
So, either way, your pet's max hit won't change. I just have my and pet's melee in one narrow box, w/ pet a different color from mine. Makes it easy to keep track of his damage, etc,....
QuoteI'll have to go and parse him during a whole evening hunting there to see what the average hit REALLY is.
Average hit means nothing imo. Average hit will change with every mob you fight due to those factors listed above. Unless you took a few months of logs and parsed the pet to see it's average dps from melee.
honestly 150 dps isn't an unreasonable estimate of our pets total dps. The problem is that the pet is so fragile, and its dps in constantly becoming a smaller and smaller % of our total dps, that its reached the point where its no longer even worth using in some situations.
Quote from: Khauruk on October 26, 2006, 05:16:01 PM
What your pet will hit for in a given round, is a function of mob AC, attack, damage mods (like mage aura, don spell, damage mod on higher lvl hastes), relative level, and at low levels, weapons that they might have been given. I'm not even positive on relative level...that might just affect how often the pet will hit.
So, either way, your pet's max hit won't change. I just have my and pet's melee in one narrow box, w/ pet a different color from mine. Makes it easy to keep track of his damage, etc,....
ehhh pet toys are OK I guess, and I certainly don't say no when a mag offers them to me, but I can't actually see a huge difference in pet DPS with vs without toys. This is for Spirit of Uluaness, the 73 pet. The parser gurus might be able to say for sure one way or another, but I haven't noticed an obvious pet DPS increase with pet toys of the kind that makes me say Wow he's hitting harder with them.
The high level hastes don't often stick on a pet. I mean I see the icon there, but even Hastening of Ellowind is only a 68% haste with a 64 ATK boost and some stats, while our Unparaled Voracity is an 85% haste with a 104 ATK boost and a 6% all skills damage modifier. Which is a really long winded way of saying yeah, you'll see the icon for Ellowind or other chanter haste, but I seriously doubt it does anything, because our pet self buff is higher.
The other thing that affects pet DPS is AAs,
The Warder's Alacrity/Savagery/Rage line of AAs certainly affects DPS, because with the triples and flurries he hits more.
The Warder's Fury/Warder's Wrath line of AAs also certainly affects DPS, because he crits more.
less obvious, but I would expect the buffs he picks up from Pet Affinity especially the shammy type buffs affect the basic stats for how hard and how often he hits and how often he procs.
I just can't see Taste of Blood doing much of anything, because the odds of a specific person or pet getting the kill shot often enough to get the frenzy bonus in a reliable way is pretty sllim.
To clarify:
Weapons on low level pets is in regard to pets in the low levels (30s and under), where a weapon will actually affect the max hit of your pet. There is no weapon in the game practically that will actually increase your pet's maximum hit at lvl73. Mage weapons simply add an additional proc.
damage mod on high level hastes - our pet hastes from DON and above have a damage modifier. Enchanters don't cast their hastes on our pet for the actual haste effect. It's for the side things, like the added agi and dex it gives.
AAs - there is no AA that affects max non-crit hit on your pet.
Shammy buffs/etc - IoS will max pet's dex, I do believe (or chanter haste oow+), might/lion's strength won't overwrite pet haste damage mod. None other will affect it's hit.
None of these things affect your original assertion though of your pet hitting for 150 (even though you retracted that). My list was there to show you things that might possible change the pet's max hit value. *Not* it's potential dps. You never talked about parsing for it's dps originally, only to see what the max hit of a pet is.
Sorry if I wrote in a confusing manner, I guess.
Without having an active CC this question might be futile, however do we happen to have an updated top 10 list? or even a top 5 list to hopefully guide the devs? Even though Tastian might be MIA perhaps a veteran member of this forum can help gather that list together so when we do have a new CC he/she can hit the floor running. Any improvement imho is better than nothing.
I thought they got rid of the top 10 list and went to the question of the week or month or whatever. Of course they never bothered to answer our questions anyway.
One was made up somewhat recently by Haggatha, iirc. It's around, but they're not formally used by the Devs anymore.
When/if we get a new CC, I would like to see an updated top-10 list stickied on the SOE forums, even if it's not a formal program. PM the devs when it gets updated, and all that. Give them a quick/easy reference if they ever think about us.